Good Morning!
Happy Saturday! 🙂
Quote of the Day
“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.”
Groucho Marx
🙂
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The Kitty part cracks me up. 🙂
And today is opening day of Spring Training Baseball. 🙂
Go Yankees!!
Anyone have a QoD?
Wandering Views 
Good morning!
March is right around the corner and that has traditionally been a rather windy month when some people fly kites. Have you flown a kite and if so what kind was it?
My father helped my brother and me to fly a kite when we were young. I did not have luck in getting one up when I tried to do a kite with my son when he was younger. I have always enjoyed watching people fly kites at the beach.
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You’re up early this morning Janice.
I’ve never had much luck with kites, and Chuck was never interested.
Elvera and I are spending the day in a seminar led by Wm Paul Young, the guy who wrote The Shack.
But first, at 9:00 we’re going to have a pancake breakfast as a fundraiser for the Storehouse.
I may starve to death before 9:00
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I liked that quote from Groucho Marx, AJ. These days you could read a book inside a dog if you have a Paperwhite Kindle!
Chas, I have a commitment to pray for Prison Fellowship Mininistires on Saturday morning so I get on the computer early to get the email to let me know the focus for the week.
Please don’t starve to death waiting on pancakes! Enjoy your seminar. I did not care for The Shack but know some people really liked it.
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Ha! Groucho had such an understated way of stating the redundantly obvious.
Janice’s QoD: Yes, and I don’t know. Growing, I always thought it would be fun to fly a kite, but never had the opportunity, as my family didn’t have the extra money to buy a good kite and there were too many trees around to fly one anyway. I finally got the chance two summers ago, when I was briefly homeless and staying in my cousin’s basement so I could take a nursing course. They had a kite and there was a park nearby with enough open space to fly it. Sure enough, it was fun! Here, there are good winds to fly a kite, but it would probably create a sensation in the village if we did it.
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Go fly a kite, Phos! Create a sensation! You can even name your kite Wandering Views.
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I agree, Phos should fly a kite in the village!
I remember my dad bringing one home once and but I wasn’t very good at it either (though we trying it in the backyard, probably not enough wind).
There’s a wonderful ocean vista point in the town where I live now and lots of people go out there to fly kites. It’s a hilltop overlooking the ocean (but back from it by 1 block) and there is always a strong wind out there. I love going there and seeing all the kites bobbing in the sky with the ocean as a scenic backdrop.
There used to be a kite store on the pier nearby and I always was amazed looking at the many different kinds they had.
I have to work today, I’m covering a meeting at 10 and after that need to stop by a groundbreaking for a new skateboard plaza the city is building in one of our parks. The 2nd story is one I was able to write in advance yesterday, I’ll just need to add a couple quotes and some color to it today. The meeting I’m covering (on concerns about the safety of some LPG tanks in the community) I’ll have to do from scratch, but it shouldn’t be too hard as I’ve written about the issue before.
On top of that I’ll have to do cop calls, so let’s hope nothing major is going on.
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I never could get kites to fly well, but one boy did. He put a 1000 foot string on a basic kite and let it go up. We could barely see it!
My dad told stories of flying kites when he was a boy in the 1930s in New York City (I think from the rooftops of the tenement houses). Sometimes, they would put razor blades on the ends of the kite tails and have battles to see who could cut the strings of the other kites.
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That’s interesting Peter. It looks simple, but I suspect there’s quite a technique to knowing how to launch and fly a kite well.
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AJ: Loved the video 🙂 Nothing like a good giggle first thing in the morning!
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My younger son and I have tried to fly kites, without much success. We’ve tried the cheap plastic ones from the dollar store, and they either ripped apart or looped around like crazy before crashing to earth. So I bought a more expensive shark-shaped kite (3D) at a science museum gift shop, but it isn’t any better. It’s cool-looking, but it never gets more than a few feet above our heads because it keeps going in circles that intersect with the ground.
Donna J,
The doctor didn’t offer any ideas what the problem is. I’m assuming now it’s something pulled or torn, especially as the pain got worse from the times I slipped but didn’t fall, presumably straining whatever it is that is pulled or torn in my efforts to keep my balance. I think I’m feeling a little bit less pain going up steps now, so it is presumably getting better.
I’m thinking of going to the Y to swim today, though I really don’t care for swimming. My husband needs to exercise, and swimming is the one that is safe for him with his own injuries from last year. He doesn’t like to go but said he will if I go. Plus I was thinking, after running the 5K last summer and working toward it again next summer, of training for the “triathlon” held at the Y in January. (I put triathlon in quotes because the distances are somewhat shorter than even those typical for a “sprint triathlon.” But even 900 yards swimming sounds like an enormous amount to me.)
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That makes sense Pauline, that it is something pulled or torn that was then aggravated by slips and near-falls. Glad it seems to be easing up. Non-slippery weather should be on the way soon for you folks!
Enjoy the swim, don’t overdo.
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My brother ans sister and I and the rest of the neighborhood kids flew kites every spring. We lived in a rural part of upstate NY and on our road there was a huge farm field up on a a hill the that’s the one polace for the good wind. In the winter it was our sledding hill. In the spring it was our kite flying hill, and there was enough space so our kites didn’t get tangled up. We flew all kinds of kites, the traditional diamond shaped kites, but the very best ones were the big black bat looking kites made of heavy plastic, (they were shaped like a stealth fighter). they would fly for hours. You had to be careful of wind gusts with those because they could pull you along in a big wind. The technique for launching one was to run with it and let the wind catch it and then keep letting out string. We’d get them way up there. bringing them back in was not as easy as you might think. We found it best to tie the string around a toilet paper ho ho and then run a stick through the ho ho. Good for a fast letting out of the string – not so good for reeling it back in. There were tall trees that surrounded the field, so occasionally we lost kites to the trees, a la Charlie Brown. Fun times! Janice, thanks for the memories.
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And AJ – I’m with you – Go Yankees. I’ve always been a yankees fan. Still am.
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When we were in Florida on vacation a few years back, we had brought a kite with us. It was a fancy two-string, trick kite. We went out on the beach and tried to fly it with only a little luck. Then a young man who had been hanging out with his friends a way up the beach saw us and asked it he could fly it. He made the thing dance. He told us kites were his hobby and then he showed Hubby a couple of tricks on how to fly it. I don’t think we ever used it again. We just didn’t have the room or the wind back home.
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Also, my dad, siblings and I use to fly regular kites when I was a kid. My dad could get them pretty high, but they would eventually end up on a power line or in a tree. The Kid and I tried flying one once. It ended up stuck in a tree in about 3 minutes.
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Yes, I flew kites as a child and was helping my grandchildren fly one last summer. They are work to get up and keep up, but worth the effort for some great fun. Ours were always cheap ones, as was the one we used last summer. We used to make them out of newspapers as I recall when we were younger. I don’t suppose that is done anymore with all those cheap ones available.
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Kite flying really is not as easy and intuitive as it looks, unfortunately. I never could make it dance.
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And now I have “let’s Go Fly a kite from mary poppins stuck in my head…;-)
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Let’s go fly a kite
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Kite flying is fun. We did it a lot in our young years and we still do it some. But these children are not quite as inclined to it. We used to make our own. Some flew, some did not, but it was fun either way.
One of my favorite times was when we were flying them over in the Catholic school playground. They went way up to tiny specks in the sky (we had moved to town and lived in an older neighborhood with lots of old maples so the playground was the only open area, same place we played baseball and all the rest). Anyway, we had our kites way up high when a neighbor lady came out and called us over. She needed somebody to run to town for her and pick up a couple of cans of something or other. I had the time so I was selected. She said she would hold the string for me. I walked the mile to and back but did not see her holding my string. My kite was still up in the air though. I went to her house with the goods and found my kite string tied to her shoe scraper! I think she paid me a nickel but I don’t remember.
We flew the diamond shape though I do remember my oldest brother made a box kite and it went well.
The fancy shaped ones have to be put together exactly right or they just hover a few feet up or spin to the ground. One of our newer children failed to read the directions and could only get it up about ten feet while his sibs had theirs soaring high. He finally took a look at the directions, made the fix, and soon had his soaring high as well. It was just one of those little plastic pieces, but it mattered. His was a pirate ship, from the store.
A couple of weeks ago, they took a kite up to the mailbox and got it way up there. It is fun.
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I just dragged my old, worn out, lazy self out of bed. Too much rich food, late nights, early mornings, and stress have caught up with me. On top of that I have picked up a stuffy nose and a scratchy voice. I sound like a three pack a day smoker right about now.
On to other things. This past week I spent a lot of time in cabs. I had forgotten how much I love a good cabby story. Back in college when I used to fly in and out of BWI on a regular basis all the cabbies were from the former Soviet Union and had ALL been nuclear physicist 😉 They would tell me how lucky I was to have been born in the US. The Greatest Country on Earth!
This week all of my cabbies were from somewhere in East Africa- always a different country. One told me about his three daughters in college. One had just graduated and moved to North Carolina for a job. One drove me by the Texas Schoolbook Depository, showed me the window and then really slowed down at the “grassy knoll” where Kennedy was hit.
It is interesting to talk to a legal immigrant and here their story of how many opportunities and what a better life the United States is for them. It is quite the contrast to those who are here illegally and draining the system. or those who were born here with a sense of entitlement like “the Man” owes them something.
Yep, the cabbies of the world are some really interesting people.
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Today, son number four is in a karate tournament, his first one. (Chas, this would be S). He is really quite good if I do say so myself. Having had nothing to do with his genetics or first twelve years, I can say that. Anyway, he is the only one of the seven regular attendees that we entered. Karate tournaments are expensive. His instructor is certain that he can become a big player in the field. But he plans to be a SEAL. This is one more step in his resume’. Husband and four of the boys are making a day of it. A long drive.
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Here’s an interesting video if you have an hour and a good Internet connection. It’s a BBC production about relatives of Hitler’s henchmen coming to tems with the family history. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2Qdwr-YbJNs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2Qdwr-YbJNs
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Ice, tailbones. Perhaps too late for Pauline, and perhaps not news to anyone here, but I have taken to putting “chains” on my shoes/boots in snow and mud. I found “Spikes” that can be added to footwear for better traction. I haven’t broken a bone yet (my granddaughter already broke an arm doing gymnastics before she turned 9). There’s still time for me to fracture something, but why rush into these experiences. There’s always time to do a hip in.
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Question: I presume you belong to various churches. I presume various churches (despite their social/doctrinal differences) at times coordinate and cooperate? How and why do your church and other churches work together? Of course, I have a hidden agenda, though not malicious or insulting, as far as I can tell.
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When I was a child, we made a few kites and bought a few cheap ones. Never had a very long string on any of them. We’d go for a picnic a way away from the city and take the kite, and the wind would always be all wrong, or the kite string too short. So I’ve never “really” flown a kite. (Gettting it airborne for three seconds because I was running probably doesn’t count.)
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Modestpress,
Our (Presbyterian) church belongs to a community ministerial association, which includes the Methodist church, the Nazarene church, and one other (not part of any denomination). We have joint services for Ash Wednesday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Thanksgiving Eve, hosted at one of the first three (the fourth is further away while the others are within a few blocks of each other), and the pastors lead the services together. The offering at those services goes to a fund maintained by the association to meet needs in the community (e.g. helping a family that is temporarily homeless, giving out holiday meals, food pantry, etc.)
As far as why, we see ourselves as part of the larger body of Christ and want to work together, as well as giving people the chance to worship with different people and learn from one another’s traditions – and showing the community that we are one in Christ.
There has been a similar association in all the towns where I’ve lived, though most were larger (as were the towns). And there are always some churches that do not participate – usually Missouri Synod Lutheran and some Baptist churches, where such participation would be considered promoting false doctrine.
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Phos could fly a kite here. It would just make another crazy tubaab story. If she did it in the road outside the compound, she could quickly have a hundred children “helping” her!
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I think Phos needs to go fly a kite.
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Yeah, Phos. Go fly a kite!
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Fly, Phos, fly.
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C’mon Phos,
It’s for the kids. 🙂
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Have someone take pictures when you fly a kite, Phos! So we can see too!
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I think the secret of flying a kite is the amount of tail you put on it. If you put too much, it’s too heavy. If too little it will flop around and hit the ground. I never mastered it.
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Mumsee, I hope son #4 wins. I think a sense of accomplishment will mean a lot to him.
🙂
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It’s been a busy day…we are supposed to have 14 for lunch tomorrow after church..but….we are supposed to get 8-12 inches of windy, blizzardy, white out conditions snow….church may be called off…but….I still need to roast the turkey and prepare the food…just in case….timing…never been my strong point!
We flew kites all the time when I was a kid…the diamond shaped, paper…tearing up old shirts for a tail type…and we always flew them with our kids…cheap entertainment don’t you know!
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Have you seen this? Can Christians DATE?
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6 Arrows: The question isn’t whether Christians can date, but whether they should date. I didn’t watch the video, but the line I see- “If you’re not aiming for the ring then you’re aiming for the bed”- says a lot. The Lord blessed us with wise children who, so far, have not dated nor desired to. D2 told me she wanted to court the way Paul Washer suggested: the man asks the father, who consults with the daughter. If she says yes, and the father thinks it’s okay, he tells the man. If not, than the father says no. It is not put on the daughter to reject him face to face.
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A really bad crash at Daytona today. Massive wreck, cars on fire, and one went airborn into the fence. The car didn’t go thru but 30 fans were hit with debris and went to the hospital. The whole front of the car was gone. Scary stuff.
http://msn.foxsports.com/video/NASCAR?vid=c5ebf4dd-9314-46f0-aa82-b0978edf5624&from=en-us_msnhp
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AJ, I saw that crash photo a little while ago, that looked horrible.
Finished making the mission casserole for church tomorrow. Then I used some of the leftover ingredients to improvise a dinner for myself (with extra servings for the rest of the week since I had another full pound of lean ground beef I could use).
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6 Arrows, that young man has a lot of wisdom (and a good sense of humor).
Years ago, I knew I didn’t want to “date around,” but I’d gotten through my college years single (and thought those were probably my most likely years to have a husband find me) and courtshiip was just being introduced. I worked with an author who was writing a book on courtship for parents. And she made a statement that hit me between the eyes in its simple profundity. She said something like, “We in the church have simplified ‘the rules’ of dating to only two absolutes: ‘Don’t date an unbeliever’ and ‘Don’t have sex before you’re married.’ And those two are broken regularly.” Yeah, something is wrong with a process that has 70-80% of those in the church sleeping together before they’re married and in which people frequently marry unwisely (and everyone around them can see it but them).
It seems to me that it’s necessary for young people to have drilled into them these concepts:
(1) Involve others in your decision-making, your parents if at all possible. (My parents were dead, but I involved my church’s pastors and elders.)
(2) Don’t get involved in romantic relationships until you are ready to marry, or will be ready in the near future. (If you want to get through medical school before you marry, do not start dating your freshman year of college!)
(3) Do not be alone behind closed doors with someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married, and do be accountable to others for how you live out your relationships.
I’d also add that once you have found the person, make the engagement a short one. The trend toward engagements of a year or more is foolish; it leads to too much temptation. If you aren’t sure, then don’t get engaged. If you are sure, then get married. A wedding isn’t worth a year and a half of stressful planning, thirty thousand dollars in expenses, and sexual impurity because you were so sure you wanted a big wedding that you had a 15-month engagement to plan it all.
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Loved the video. I believe I know a few people I plan to show this to. Thanks, Six Arrows.
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I really don’t agree about courtship. I dated. I had fun. I was a virgin until I married my husband.
Simply put, there has been a lot of data collected now on “courtship” and it doesn’t work any better than dating.
It is a worldview and a mindset that is required, not more “rules.”
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In addition, my mother dated a TON. She dated more guys than you can count on two hands and all your toes. And, yet she was pure and was a virgin when she married.
My sister only dated one guy seriously (and 3 all together), and she too remained a virgin until married.
My husband was a virgin, as was my sister’s husband.
Yet, we all dated and had a great time … from 16 on. (I married at 22.)
Courtship makes things too complicated, and way too serious, way too fast. There is no time to decide if you even LIKE someone as a friend before you’re getting the father involved and the whole family. It puts a degree of pressure on both the male and the female to be *serious.*
Purity is a quality of the mind. It cannot be prescribed by outside forces.
Certainly, one shouldn’t put oneself into situations where temptation will be very strong: being alone for long periods of time, for example.
But, dating in and of itself is fun. It is a good way to find out if you enjoy the company of the other person. It is a lovely way to develop a friendship. And, THEN, when you’re friends, the spark may hit to be more, and you can involve the family.
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And, don’t even get me started on the “I won’t hold hands or kiss anyone until my wedding day” nonsense. ;-p
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Elvera and I violated all but #2 of Cheryl’s three rules. We were both mature enough. I was 26 and she was 24. As you now she always had a boy friend since high school days. But she, too, was a virgin.
None of our parents knew anything until about three months into our courtship.
Her parents wouldn’t have advised her to marry me. Her step-mother tried to discourage her, but not seriously.
My parents loved her the first time they saw her.
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Huh, it seems a lot of people want me to go away… 😉
I can’t see 6 Arrows’ link, but it strikes me that the Bible has very little to say on the subject of how one chooses a spouse. I have seen arguments made from various OT examples, but when one really considers such examples of faith as Abraham or Issac or Jacob or David, one inevitably concludes that no rules can be drawn about courtship styles from the various marital failures that are found in their stories. The NT is even more cursory – all that Christ and Paul have to say about the decision to get married is that some people were made to get married and some people have the self-control to not get married. All their detailed advice is to those who are already married. For it is more important to the kingdom of God that one remain faithful to one’s spouse, however imperfect they may be, than to try to choose a perfect spouse. Hence, Paul’s warning about the troubles that come with marriage.
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Ah, Phos. Do you mean the attitude of the heart is most important? 🙂
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Phos, that is basically what the video said. No need to label it as dating or courtship. The attitude needs to be right.
Tammy, many people who successfully dated in the past are all for it. It makes sense, if something worked for you, it is something you want to share.
I liked what the guy said and I will be showing it to my older children.
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I didn’t date a lot in high school. I was more the “buddy” than the one they wanted to date. I was shy and awkward. I didn’t know how to date last year when I decided I was tired of sitting at home alone all the time. I was an absolute wreck the first date I went on…I almost threw up. I went out with five or six different men. Then I met Mr. P. Now, HE had dated around a lot, but had quit dating at some point. He had a certain type of woman he was looking for. She had to be southern and preferably from Alabama (yet he found a southern woman who can’t fry good chicken), she had to be family oriented, with strong family values. Apparently I fit the criteria. I almost tossed him back because he was almost clinical in his behavior and conversation the first date. He actually told me that I didn’t send up any red flags and he thought we should have a second date!!!! I thought probably not, but I didn’t have anythng to do the next day so when he called I agreed to go to the beach with him. We talked, and talked, and talked that day. He is a good man, but he is still a man and as I have learned there is a design flaw in most men thus the reason God made women second after He had seen the flaws in the prototype. But the flaws he has offset the flaws I have and at the end of the day everything balances out and we have yet to go to bed angry. We haven’t even had a serious disagreement. We are both a little too independent but we were both alone for a long time.
A little of his independence has reared its head over this back surgery. I have been instructed to stay home today that it is too far to drive to the hospital he is in. He is still having a lot of drainage and bleeding from the incision and may have to stay until Tuesday. It is probably for the best if he does. Just one more day he is under professional care rather than my care. I have been a lot better in the care department with him than I was with my dad. I got scolded for “hovering”. 😉
All in all I have decided to keep him.
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Kim 🙂 “there is a design flaw in most men thus the reason God made women second after He had seen the flaws in the prototype.” Well said, sister. 🙂
I liked dating, too, though I think I went on what was only my second date ever to our senior prom and that was kind of nerve racking because it was all so formal.
The year before, when I was a junior, I went on my very first date with the boy down the street (a year older than I was) to his Disneyland grad night and then that summer we double dated with his friends for fire nights at the beach (roasting marshmallows while watching and listening the surf pound in the near distance).
And yeah, it was lots of very clean fun.
Maybe we’re getting too hung up on terminology. One way or the other, couples have to find a way to hang out with each other and get to know each other. The more supervised, formal “courtship” model seems to work for some, but not for others.
I do think the unraveling of our culture in the past 20-40 years has, perhaps, turned dating into something more than it was when I was a teen & in my 20s in terms of sexual expectations.
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Well, I guess the senior prom wasn’t my second date, more like the 4th or so — but with a different boy. He and I had worked on a congressional campaign during our senior year, we were more like pals. But I was thrilled to be going to the prom!
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As Phos says, the Bible says very little about dating. In fact, nothing.
Dating as it is practiced is a relatively new thing in western civilization. It used to be that a family tried to find a worthy man for a daughter. And the man needed a wife because most men can’t make it alone. That is still true in many parts of the world.
Elvera’s family would not have selected me for her.
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Technically, kids don’t “date” anymore. They “hook up.” So, even with dating, we’re talking going back to a more “traditional” view.
The problem as I see it with the courtship model (and please don’t confuse it with old-fashioned “ask the dad before dating” that many older people associate with courtship. This is a new model, largely developed by certain segments of the homeschooling community) is that it is all about fear and control.
Parents FEAR their children will date and be promiscuous or lose control and succumb to temptation. Why? Well, because it happens, has happened, and has often happened in the past to those very same parents when they were young.
So, to counter it, parents try to CONTROL every aspect of their emerging adult-child’s life. These parents often make their children fear their sexuality, the opposite sex, and their sexual feelings. Girls are taught that boys *can’t* control themselves and that their father (not themselves) have to control the boys for them.
Innocent kisses become tantamount to intercourse. Holding hands will necessarily lead to further inappropriate touch. Male/female friendships are suspect at best, and often not allowed. Boys must be “men” from the beginning and ask to “court” a girl (which immediate signals marriage interest) before even really knowing the girl all that well.
And, all of this is the parents’ need to control their kids every move in the hope of avoiding premarital impurity.
The bottom line, however, is that purity is a state of mind. If you haven’t taught your kids how to be pure, and why to be pure long since (from the time they are young), you are simply setting yourself and your kids up for legalism. An EXTERNAL force (the parents) are IMPOSING righteousness onto their kids. Their kids are not practicing an internal righteousness.
It is artificial. It does not work in the majority of cases (we have plenty of evidence that this is true now that this version of courtship has been around for 10 plus years), and can even be very damaging.
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It also means that everyone is playing by a different “game book,” which makes the teen/young adult years very confusing.
I have two sons and a daughter (ds20, ds16, and dd13), and we hang with a lot of “courtship model” people. So, ALL of their daughters are off-limits for my sons, because my sons are not ready to commit to marriage from the first spark of interest.
It does put us in a very difficult spot. Many of the non-courting families are very worldly, but the courting families are simply … weird. 😉
And, I don’t want my sons to have to become too serious way too soon, so I discourage them from entering into a courting situation.
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And, of course, all of that goes haywire when kids go off to college. After all, they often are no longer living at home, or even in the same state. So, how would the “courtship model” work in that case?
I’ll tell you what often happens. You will find amongst many courtship model families a strong reticence to allow their daughters to attend college. Many simply don’t permit it, or only permit it if their daughters can continue to live at home under the “headship” of their fathers.
Interestingly, most don’t put this same restriction on their sons. (Although, a few do.)
So, we have daughters who are kept from an advanced education in order to CONTROL their sexuality (since they obviously can’t be trusted to control it themselves and handle their own affairs. SIGH)
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Even more interesting … in the Middle Ages, it was a “known fact” that it was WOMEN who could not control themselves sexually, and men who had to be the restraining force. lol
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Okay, jumped on my “high horse” before I watched the video (remember, I’m around a lot of “courtship model” people, and often feel as if I and my family are being judged). I really liked the video. I think it is a good contribution to ongoing discussion.
It is HARD to be a young single now-a-days, and just as hard to be his/her parent!! 🙂
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And, just so you know, I was leaning “courtship model” for awhile (peer pressure, you know!), but my husband was adamantly opposed. So, I started to research it, and came to agree with him.
However, I admit … since there is no standard, cultural “play book” on this male/female thing anymore (except for a very loose and very unbiblical one), it is an important discussion for Christians to be having … especially with their children.
I certainly don’t have all the answers. Dating has a lot of potential pitfalls. Courtship just seems to have as many and more, though. And, all of it is confusing!!
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Tammy, be sure all the foundations are firm before you give him/her the keys to the car.
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Tammy, I think a lot of the “courtship model” people are quite extreme. I know some of them. When I was getting ready to get married, age 43 when we met and 44 when we married, one of my relatives wasn’t happy because I didn’t get my oldest brother’s “permission.” (That same oldest brother finally met my husband on our first anniversary! He liked him a lot, BTW.) And she urged me not to touch him in any way until we married. And yes, she’s opposed to girls going to college. (I don’t think that is out of guarding girls’ purity, BTW–from what I have read, that is to keep girls from becoming too independent. They are supposed to be directly under a father’s authority and then a husband’s. Even an older single woman whose father is deceased is supposed to live with a male relative, and apparently she is not supposed to work for pay, or at least not outside the home. She can volunteer or she can work from home.)
But one can throw out the extremes and still be sobered by the fact that at least 70% of our young people are sleeping with each other before they walk down the aisle, and that doesn’t count the ones who have had previous partners but who have made the choice not to sleep with each other. Nor does it take into account that probably half of the others have had some level of sexual involvement short of intercourse. These are devastating numbers. Something is hugely wrong with the way dating is done, to have this result. (Only about 10% of young couples haven’t touched each other sexually before marriage, in recent “Christian” marriages.)
But seriously, sexual impurity isn’t the only serious issue. Many young people (and older people) marry foolishly. Some go against counsel, and some simply don’t receive any. A large percentage of these ill-advised marriages end in divorce or end up with people enduring very difficult situations. I would never say, “Everybody should ask their parents’ permission to marry” (though I would say that a young man should get a father’s permission to marry a young woman who is under his roof, or ideally even one who is not). But I do think that the wise person considering marriage (whether or not he has a potential marriage partner in mind) should have someone wise who he will listen to about his marriage choices.
Marriage is too important a decision to make under the influence of hormones, especially if sexual activity has entered and clouded the picture.
Whether people court or date, I think that in today’s culture, “get counsel” and “do not be alone together” are very important. And one I didn’t mention earlier: “Go into marriage knowing it’s permanent, even if you aren’t happy together.” A realistic fear of what a bad marriage can look like isn’t a bad thing for a young person to have; but counsel and modeling of what a healthy marriage looks like is even better.
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BTW, I’ve never figured out why people balk at the idea of the young man asking permission before dating the young woman. Being under her father’s protection isn’t at all a bad thing, and the father can send away men who are clearly a bad idea. But very few in the courtship model are opposed to men and women being friends; if he isn’t sure he wants to date the girl, there is nothing at all against him talking with her and getting to know her.
The courtship model says you should be ready to marry before you start taking out young women romantically, which is very, very wise. Even at 16, a girl on a date can’t help but wonder if this boy is “the one.” She’s wired for romance. But if he doesn’t want to marry until he’s finished with college at 22 or 23, he isn’t even close to being ready for marriage at 16, and he shouldn’t be wooing girls he has no chance of marrying.
The courtship model isn’t supposed to say, “If you court a girl, you have to marry her.” Choosing not to marry the person one is courting is also considered “success.” But you’ll only court her if you are ready to marry and if according to what you know about her now, she’s a reasonable match for you. You aren’t “playing with her heart,” you’re seeing whether a potential match is a good match. You can do all the preliminaries you want before you ask her father for permission to ask her out, so there shouldn’t be any pressure to marry. The only “pressure” is that you don’t date a girl if you don’t have any thought in your mind that she might be a marriage partner. Since a marriage-minded girl would never go out with someone she doesn’t consider at least a potential marriage partner, that puts them both on the same page! (And yes, girls do sometimes go out with guys they don’t consider marriage material–but those are exactly the bad suitors who would be chased away if they came through her father!!)
I think it can easily be taken to an extreme–but in the culture we live in, in which singles are assumed to have a sexual partner, and virtually all couples do sleep together, and when marriage often doesn’t happen all, and in which divorce is far too common, having someone who can ask a young man, “What are your intentions, son?” is a very, very good idea.
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All of the above makes me antsy and sick to my stomach. To hold a daughter at home and not let her attend college for fear of her virtue? How barbaric and backward is that? We may as well live in one of the closed societies in the Middle East we are trying to liberate! I also don’t think young people should pair off too soon, but seriously dating is better than the “hook-up” mentality that is out there. I think in the best of circumstances there should be adult chaperoned social events where they can learn to interact with each other. I also think that parents need to talk to their sons as well as their daughters about what a moment of passion can lead to and the heartache involved.
I don’t have the answers. I have a 15 year old daughter and I am just doing the best that I can. It is hard enough without other parents judging. And let me tell you there are parents out there who will decide you are too strict and will constantly invite your child into their home where things are more lax.
This parenthood thing ain’t for sissies.
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We do live in a world of extremes now, don’t we? Sheesh. 😦 Being a non-parent, I’d lean with Tammy on this one. I’ve also seen the “courtship” in homeschooling families and, just as an outsider, it has always struck me as odd and controlling.
But I think it’s probably just a reaction to a society and culture run amok. Not always a good alternative, but maybe predictable under the circumstances. 😦 Sad.
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Then what happens to the single female who is left with no relatives? Now all that being said, I have no problem with George or Paul cleaning their guns when some guy comes to pick my daughter up for a date. 😉
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So I was sick today and stayed home. I cleaned and cleaned. I don’t want Mr. P to get a staph infection. Most things have been wiped down with bleach wipes and the shower with almost straight bleach. All the linens are washed and I have thrown away three bags of stuff. I sneaked off to Publix to buy food for the rest of the week and ran into my priest’s wife! Of course I sound like a foghorn so telling her I was sick was quite believable!
Making Baby Girl’s favorite Chicken Parmesan. Leftovers will go into the freezer so the patient can have a good lunch later in the week.
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Ah, the smell of Clorox.
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It is hard enough without other parents judging.
I cut and pasted that from your comment, Kim. How about this one:
All of the above makes me antsy and sick to my stomach. To hold a daughter at home and not let her attend college for fear of her virtue? How barbaric and backward is that? We may as well live in one of the closed societies in the Middle East we are trying to liberate!
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Mumsee, you cut and pasted it to what?
I have never professed to have all the parenting answers and when asked for advice as when I give it, I invite the listener to remember what I said so that they can repeat it to me at any time in the future.
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Since we have only sons, and I had no experience getting to know guys until I was in my 20’s, I am happy to let my husband take the lead in advising our sons on boy-girl relationships. Which – while it certainly includes instruction on purity – tends to be geared towards going out and actually getting to know some girls. Because neither of them has shown any great interest in dating. Our older son, with much encouragement from my husband, had a sort of a girlfriend for a few months in high school – mostly chatting at school activities (they were both in musical groups), and texting, and he took her to the prom, but then she broke up with him. He took it OK, I think, but so far as I know has not dated in the three years since. He has friends who are girls, but mostly because they happen to have common interests – music, and “geek life” activities.
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Kim,
You said the first line and then you said the last line. I cut and pasted from your comment to my comment.
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All I know is that Elvera and I did it all wrong.
Neither of us asked for approval.
It wouldn’t have mattered.
She was under her own protection. That was significant.
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Oh, well then it makes me feel good knowing we are in accord on our thoughts.
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I went to the Y yesterday and managed to swim eight laps, pausing for an extended time in between each lap to catch my breath and wonder why it is so hard to swim one lap when I can run a mile and a half without having to take a break. I was relieved to discover, when googling the matter later, that a lot of people wonder the same thing.
I also managed to do two laps around the track at a very slow jog, and it wasn’t too painful, but I decided two laps was enough. I spent the rest of my warm-up time on an exercise bike, but none of that was as good warm-up as running. I skipped the weight machines that would have hurt do to my injury (whatever it is), but even on the ones where there was no pain, I had trouble doing the weight and reps I usually do.
But at least I did something, so I shouldn’t get further out of shape while I recover enough to run normally again. And tomorrow evening, my husband says, he’ll go swimming with me.
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I guess what I was trying to say there is that the concept of some man protecting a woman before marriage was/is a foreign concept for us.
We didn’t have girls, but Chuck has three. I noticed that a guy who was after one of them needed, not the approval of parents, but of her sisters.
Makes a certain amount of sense. They are familiar with her, think like girls, and can think without the hormone influence. i.e. “Is this a good match?”
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Good female friends are important. I paraded Mr. P out past all sorts of my friends. Later I would call and ask what they thought of him. I really liked it when they called me first. Steve and Debi, Bob and Malia, and several others all had to sign off on him as did a few of you who prayed I was making the right decision.
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Our first married son got married via betrothal. We selected, he agreed, she and her parents agreed. They had never really even spoken to each other. They committed to get married. They did and have been for around ten years now. They are the parents of my two grandsons. They like each other very much.
Second son to get married dated his wife. They have been married several years as well and are quite happy with each other.
Our other two grown ones are still enjoying being single, but would like to fine a partner. It is tough in today’s culture.
Different means for different folks is just fine.
There really is not a problem with not everybody going to college. Not every parent wants to go into debt over that, nor should they. Not every child is going to graduate, nor should they. Not every child is going to do everything the same way, nor should they. Assembly line parenting is not the best.
I liked the video, he put it very well.
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find, they would like to find, not fine
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Tammy- Times have changed. Dating is becoming “old fashioned” and the idea of “hooking up” means sex without commitment, what we used to call a one night stand.
Cheryl’s rules are good ones to tell young people. Temptations are too strong when the hormones are flowing. Paul Washer adds to her rule #3. It involves being in a car: He tells young men, “Do not be alone in a car with any female other than your mother, sister or ugly cousin.”
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Just got back from the dog park where a couple of us watched a 6-year-old turn over nearly every chair in the park (he missed only 2; his mom and maybe older sister? were there with him and his older brother).
We kept thinking the grownups with them would surely say something, they’d certainly tell him to pick up the chairs and put them back upright. Right?
Nope. They gathered up their dog and left, leaving behind all the chairs tipped upside down.
So on our way out we picked up all the chairs (probably close to 20 he’d knocked over).
Can’t wait until he tries that in someone’s house where they’re guests. 😉
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I’ll admit I’m a little amazed at all the new “dating” or whatever-they-call-it-anymore rules.
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Pauline, Congratulations on a good workout!
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There is a book called Why Men Love (B)itches. I thing every female should tea d it before entering the dating scene. I read it several years ago. I have to admit THE (my school friends) guided my dating last year. Every time I chose a man to go out with they saw his photo and profile. One of my gay guy friends called one guy for a child molester right away and told me I could not go out with him. They didn’t like J but immediately liked Mr.P
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I enjoyed reading all your comments about the dating video. I liked the video, and am glad others here did, too. Thanks also for sharing your thoughts on dating. I’d add mine, too, but this mom is very tired and is going to bed much earlier than usual, so my input on the subject will be another day. 😉
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This is almost funny…
R has refused to pay child support for a while now, even when he was making good money & boasting about his new smart phone. R sees his son when it’s convenient for him. Sometimes he says he’ll watch Forrest while Emily’s working, then bails at the last minute.
No, that’s not the almost funny part. The almost funny part is that he’s been pushing Emily to let him declare Forrest as a dependent on his taxes.
Wisely, Emily is not going along with that.
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Chas, the “culture” in which you grew up and dated was vastly different from today. Several things make a significant difference: when you were dating, people were expected to be marrying for a lifetime, and you’d sure better choose carefully. Partners were expected to remain sexually pure while dating; today the opposite is expected. You were expected to be a gentleman, and you lived up to that expectation. I really think it likely that if you had daughters today, and saw the culture they were contending with, you’d want to know something about the men who might be showing interest in them.
BTW, I do think that having sex before marriage is not “the unpardonable sin,” but it is a sin, and it is a very bad idea on a lot of counts (including clouding the ability to choose wisely). Add in a culture in which a lot of potential marriage partners have been raised to see divorce as normal, and in which well over half of young men (and maybe a third of young women) have some level of a problem with pornography, not to mention bad work ethics, and high debt loads, and a much wider range in what even Christians think about such things as how to form a family (a husband who believes in no birth control and assumes his wife will homeschool their children is probably not a good match for a wife who wants to wait at least five years to have children and who plans to put her two children in daycare when they reach six weeks), and it is very important that people use great wisdom in choosing whom to marry. There was simply more of a “common culture” sixty years ago, probably more of a common culture between believers and unbelievers than among believers in the same church today!
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Cheryl – I agree with much of what you wrote, particularly in that last comment. I’ll add, though, that you may be surprised by the number of firstborns who were “premature”, if you know what I mean. And this goes back before Chas’ generation.
But at least those couples usually married for life, even if they did mess up a bit before marriage.
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It’s not an easy thing. It really isn’t. I think it is sweet for a boy to ask a girl to get an ice cream, and I just don’t think he has to go through the dad to do that.
But, on the other hand, Cheryl makes some valid points. Being smack in the middle of it, I can tell you that it is not an easy thing balancing between the culture’s “hooking up” and the homeschooling version of “courtship.” And, that’s where my family finds itself.
I hope that my kids can date with intentionality (I liked that in the video). And, I pray that God can keep them on the right track.
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Blessings to you, Tammy, as you find the balance. I don’t envy parents of teens, what a difficult time this seems to be for raising young people.
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Tammy, no, I don’t think a man should have to go through a girl’s father to ask her to go get an ice cream cone, as a casual thing. (Two classmates walking to the ice cream shop on the corner to sit and talk, that sort of thing.)
I do think it’s better if singles develop the habit of having their closest friends coming from their own sex, though. If a guy and a girl hang out together sometimes, especially as part of a group setting, I don’t see anything wrong with that. But I think that close friendship risks one or two hearts getting involved, and I think it would be wise if the young woman would keep her father apprised of all her friendships, and if he would have the phone number of any young men. “We’re just friends” friendships often end up putting a young woman in a very bad place–he begins to draw her heart without trying to. So yes, be casual friends, but for “pairing up” or even close friendship, it is wise to have her father involved.
Many men have a bad habit, if allowed, to let a woman meet all his emotional needs, and his sexual if she’ll let him, without offering any permanent relationship. There’s a place for a father to call a young man and say, “You’re calling my daughter every day? What are your intentions? ‘Just friends,’ huh? Enough of this–you’re drawing her heart and you’re taking too much of her emotional energy. Decide whether you’re looking for a close, intimate relationship–it’s called marriage–or whether you’d rather have your closest friends be with men and stay single for now. But you won’t hog all her attention and draw her heart without offering her more than friendship. It isn’t good for either of you, and I won’t let it happen to my daughter.”
Likewise, if a man dates a young woman for years and years, at some point the father may need to get involved. “You’ve been dating for three years now. What is keeping you from offering marriage? Because it’s time to decide if you want to be married or not. If you don’t, let her go.” (I started to put “five years” in this example, but the reality is that such a conversation should happen far earlier than that . . . but see, here is where it gets tricky, because it shouldn’t get to three years either. If they’ve been close friends for six months, the young man should know whether he is ready for marriage, whether he sees a future with her, etc. If he doesn’t, then he shouldn’t be hogging her time / attention / affection, etc. Being in conversation right from the start is great.)
Someone needs to be able to ask these questions. If he’s 22 and she’s 20 and she’s ready to get married but he thinks he’ll probably get married when he’s 30, then she needs to be able to walk away before further hurt. Here’s the bottom line: I really think that the idea that “dating” or even male/female friendship is about only two people is misguided. Broken hearts, sexual sins, money and time squandered on the wrong person (I am NOT saying all male/female friendships that don’t lead to marriage are “squandering,” but many of them are)–all of these affect more than the people involved. They affect the family, the community (school, workplace, etc.), one’s ability to focus on the right priorities, even one’s future marriage and children. Family is multi-generational, not just two people. Several families are affected if my grandfather fathered a child by a woman he didn’t marry. A man’s future livelihood may be at risk if he spends time dating when he isn’t ready to marry, because he isn’t focused on his tasks for today. The woman who gets her heart broken multiple times may have less ability to trust and even to discern when the right man comes along. She may be too distracted by a guy friend even to notice the better man, and he may assume she’s “taken.”
So I think it’s best when a young woman trusts her father and when her father, in turn, knows her social circle. He can understand men in a way she can’t. He can tell her, “This man is observing you, but he is not a trustworthy man.” He can tell her, “This man is taking too much of your time” and he can talk to the man, or she can–but either way, if young people are ready to marry (whether or not they have a potential partner), it is healthiest for them to be talking things over with both parents–however much the parents do or don’t get involved.
Likewise, we have an obligation to our children. One of the interesting twists to my courtship was that the children were already here; they weren’t future children I would bear someday. It might have made me more consciously aware of them. I was conscious (for example) that I had no right to touch their father in any way that I couldn’t do in front of them, couldn’t tell them about, and wouldn’t recommend in their own dating relationships! (No sexual touch until marriage, in other words.) But I think it’s healthy even for a young couple to hold such guidelines in regard to their own parents and future children. Not as a legalistic joy-killer (my husband and I had a lot of fun together when we were courting), but as a realistic assessment of the fact that marriage is about more than just two people–it affects the family tree backward and forward.
Some parents are foolish and can’t help their children. Many reject perfectly good marriage partners. Sometimes parents are dead before their children marry (this was my circumstance). But if possible, ideally, parents should be somewhat involved in their children’s courtship, and before the children have already reached the determination to marry and won’t listen to any counsel.
I think “courtship advocates” often take it too far. A pendulum always has that danger. But dating that doesn’t receive counsel from the community is dangerous in a different way, bigger ways in my opinion.
BTW, a very real danger of online dating is that you don’t necessarily get to know each other’s communities (unless you live in the same town). I learned that after one long-distance relationship in which I never even met the man in person. My husband did a great job of coming to know my community, and letting me know his–he stayed with one of my elders when he traveled to Nashville, and I stayed with his parents when I traveled here. And we took part in a lot of meals and activities in other people’s homes. So we overcame that natural weakness, but it definitely is a weakness. But dating far from one’s family–for example with both people in college away from home–holds that weakness as well. And I think it likewise needs to be overcome by intentionally involving families earlier in the process, not only after you’ve made the choice to marry.
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And I would say if they have known each other for five days, they ought to know. But there is no one size fits all. Many parents know their own children better than the casual observer and they may make calls somebody else does not appreciate, does not make it wrong. And sometimes, the child asks for the help and others don’t know that or think they are not ready if they have to ask for help. My parents did not know of my husband’s existence before I told them I was engaged. It worked but not what I recommend. I would have liked more help. I did ask one lady in church for help and she did give some advice (my parents were not believers).
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Cheryl: “I do think it’s better if singles develop the habit of having their closest friends coming from their own sex, though.” That’s what my daughter did. Now that same sex marriage is legal in Washington state, they are now legally married. The two “dads” were present, although they have no interest in getting married. Their daughter got to be the bridesmaid. (At 8 years of age.)
If I believed in God, I would think that’s the way he would want it to happen. But I musn’t forget evangelical trope #2: “No matter what happens, that’s the way God — in his infinite wisdom wants it to happen.”
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