Yet another reason to crack down on illegal immigration. And yet another reason to crack down on the IRS for not only aiding these lawbreakers, but for sticking it to American citizens who were victims of these illegal criminals.
“The IRS has discovered more than 1 million Americans whose Social Security numbers were stolen by illegal immigrants, but officials never bothered to tell the taxpayers themselves, the agency’s inspector general said in a withering new report released Tuesday.
Investigators first alerted the IRS to the problem five years ago, but it’s still not fixed, the inspector general said, and a pilot program meant to test a solution was canceled — and fell woefully short anyway.
As a result, most taxpayers don’t learn that their identities have been stolen and their Social Security files may be screwed up.
“Taxpayers identified as victims of employment-related identity theft are not notified,” the inspector general said.
The report alarmed lawmakers on Capitol Hill, who were shocked that the IRS had gone for so long without fixing the issue.
“It is stunning that the IRS has chosen to aid and abet identity thieves for so long instead of protecting the innocent victims of the theft,” said Sen. Daniel Coats, Indiana Republican.”
———————————-
I’m still feeling a real disconnect with this entire election cycle.
My sense is that the culture (as reflected in our disheartening political choices) has moved so far afield at this point, I no longer “feel” a part of any of it to a great degree. I’ll vote (though probably not for president this time around), but for the most part the country is off on it’s own track now, deeply separated from the values and virtues I view as most important for a nation to uphold.
It’s all quite strange. Freeing, in a way, but strange and sad, too.
Speaking of culture:
“This year alone, laws were proposed that would force Christian colleges to deny their beliefs, and a federal directive demanded that schools nationwide accommodate transgender students in both restrooms and athletics. And this march is accompanied by the persistent media drumbeat that “the science is settled” on these issues.”
Does that mean that men can play on the women’s basketball teams?
Time to shake things up a little. And no, I’m not doing this to tick anyone off, I’m truly trying to understand the reasoning of the “Never Trumpers”.
I know Hannity is Trump’s favorite mouthpiece (The leftist media aren’t the only ones who show their bias), but does he have a point? Seems to me he does. I think he goes a little overboard, but many of these concerns are valid. Not voting, or doing something silly like voting for your dog (If I wanted a lazy candidate that sleeps all the time and mooches off of me I’d just vote for Hillary), and is a vote for Hillary, whether you like it or not. Do those of you not planning to vote for Trump not see that they will share the blame for a Hillary presidency?
And don’t give me the “well my vote won’t matter”, or “I’m voting 3rd party” stuff. I’ve heard several people I know and value the opinion of say they’ll do the latter because their conscience just won’t let them vote for Trump. But you’ll vote for a pro-choice candidate and that doesn’t upset your conscience? It’s the same as a vote for Hillary. There are only 2 real choices here. It’s time for people to admit the obvious.
Here’s what Hannity had to say…..
————————————————-
““Well, let me just say to all of you. And that includes the commentator class. That includes the Jonah Goldberg class, that includes radio talk show hosts. Glenn Beck is like on a — it’s a holy war for him at this point. I mean, he’s off the rails attacking me every day. Blaming me for Trump. Well, no. I was fair to everybody, Glenn. Whether you want to admit it or not. I know I was fair. My conscience is clear. And I, frankly, I’m proud to pull the lever for Donald Trump with a clear conscience.”…
“So here’s what I say to all of you Never Trumpers — Glenn Beck, I hope you’re listening. You own Hillary Clinton’s Supreme Court appointments. You own it! You are doing everything you can do to cast doubt in people’s minds! Trump gave us a list. You own her Supreme Court nominees, you own her un-vetted refugees and the 550% increase she will bring into this country. You own the jobs that illegal immigrants will take from the 95 million Americans out of the labor force. You own Obamacare, which is a disaster for this country. You own education, because she is beholden to the NEA. And if we don’t improve the lives of 95 million Americans out of the labor force, I blame you for that too!”
“Because you’re helping elect her. And I’m also saying that, hey, we have a $4,100 increase in health care payments since Obama has been president. It’s only going to go higher. You get responsibility for that, too! We have got 12 million more Americans on food stamps. If that increases, I’m going to blame you! We have 46 million total. Eight million more Americans living in poverty. Fifty million Americans in poverty. If that gets worse, I’m blaming you! You know, we have the worst home ownership in 51 years. If that gets worse, guess who I’m blaming? I’m blaming all of you!””
To answer your question, AJ, for me it is somewhat like a Hitler/Stalin choice. It is not enough to say that I should vote for Hitler to avoid Stalin, or vote for Stalin to avoid Hitler. Each candidate is so intrinsically evil, that I cannot vote for either one. The evil of candidate A does not compensate for the evil of candidate B.
Now if you would be so kind, just what is it about Trump that you think it is that puts him on par with Stalin and Hitler? What evil on a massive scale has he committed that warrants being compared to either? I don’t see millions of dead bodies in his wake. Seems like a complete exaggeration.
1. Hannity and his ilk and the millions of deluded Trumpkins that listen to Hannity are the reason we are in this mess.
2. It is far from certain that Hillary is worse than Trump for the following reasons:
A. On some issues, i.e. trade and healthcare, his views are to the left of hers;
B. On other issues such as abortion, he is a very recent “convert’ to conservatism, and/or his views are subject to change on a moment-by-moment basis;
C. As bad as her character is (and it is horrible), his is much worse. This is why the 50 Republican national security experts favor her over him. They view him as unstable, infantile, ignorant and dangerous. If you disagree, look how he treated his wives, business partners, contractors, etc.
3. I am not going to be critical of anyone’s choice this year, whether they vote for Trump, Hillary, Johnson, McMullin, the Greenie or my son”s dog.
4. People who criticize others for not voting for Trump are not principled conservatives. They are either members of a Cult of Personality and/or they have not examined Trump’s utterances and past behavior.
In 1940 (?) Concerning Hitler’s invasion of Russia, former president Herbert Hoover said, “We have nothing to choose between.” But we mad a a choice. If Germany had not had an eastern front, the western front would have been a disaster.
When you have a choice between only two possible outcomes, you choose the one that works at the time.
Trump can’t be as bad as Hillary.
Ah, history! Actually, we did not make a choice in the early 1940s. Hitler made the choice. After Pearl Harbor, the US and Japan declared war on each other. Then Hitler, in compliance with his promise to the Japanese, declared war on the US. Only following this German declaration of war, did the US declare war on Germany. Historians have speculated on what would have happened if Hitler had not honored his commitment to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor. Many believe the US would not have declared war on Germany, at least not until some other dramatic event occurred.
Trump and Hitler have many small things in common:
1. Scapegoating
2. Complete amorality
3. Effective Demagoguery
4. Reliance on the uneducated lower middle class
5. Megalomania
6. Fondness for mass rallies
7. Appeal to nationalism
8. Innovative use of new technology in campaigns
9. Ability to sense and exploit weakness in an opponent.
However, their greatest similarity is illustrated in the story told above: They are prone to huge, catastrophic unforced errors (possibly induced by the megalomania).
And don’t give me the “well my vote won’t matter”, or “I’m voting 3rd party” stuff. I’ve heard several people I know and value the opinion of say they’ll do the latter because their conscience just won’t let them vote for Trump. But you’ll vote for a pro-choice candidate and that doesn’t upset your conscience?
(Emphasis mine.)
Voting 3rd party does not mean one is necessarily voting pro-choice. I will be voting for a 3rd party pro-life candidate. They do exist.
AJ, First I want you to understand that I am Pro-Life. I was 18 weeks pregnant when I watch BG bat her hands against a needle inserted into her space.
I do not believe we are going to win the abortion battle politically. I do not believe any single candidate much less President is going to turn back that decision.
The battle is going to be won one person at a time. It is going to be won by the medical community. As medicine advances to the degree that a premature baby born earlier and earlier in the pregnancy survives and thrives people will individually realize that it is a life they are taking when they choose abortion.
In this “political climate” it is political suicide to come out and say you are anti-abortion. You cannot win that argument. I had a professor in college that said the only way to deal with it was to wear a pager and have yourself paged so you could excuse yourself.
On a few of your list I can see your point. But I have some questions…..
“A. On some issues, i.e. trade and healthcare, his views are to the left of hers;”
Examples please.
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“B. On other issues such as abortion, he is a very recent “convert’ to conservatism, and/or his views are subject to change on a moment-by-moment basis;”
He’s changed it once, and for the better. Is a recent convert to the pro-life side not a much better option than one of the leading advocates of abortion? You know the answer is yes.
——————————————
And this one…
“4. People who criticize others for not voting for Trump are not principled conservatives. They are either members of a Cult of Personality and/or they have not examined Trump’s utterances and past behavior.”
Just a statement here. I find it funny that what you call a principled conservative is so willing to go back on their word and back whoever is nominated. They don’t get to claim the moral high ground when they failed to keep their word. Sorry.
As to your second post, fair enough. But when not doing so causes the continuation of policies that are detrimental to everyone and flat out evil, like abortion, we will all suffer the consequences for not doing all we could collectively to stop it. Just something to consider.
The Hitler comparisons are ridiculous, and don’t even warrant a response. You want that kind of low brow stuff, go over to HuffPo and amuse yourself. Others can debate it with you if they choose, but really, you can do better.
While much of what you said is true, I think you underestimate the power a president has when it comes to abortion. As Obama has shown us with restrictive laws against conscientious objectors to it, restricting pro-life groups via the IRS, funding the groups who perform it, and openly promoting it as the leader of the free world. The President has alot more power to sway things then you give them credit for.
And let’s be honest, if they wanted to, they could veto any legislation that funds Planned Parenthood and the like. It really is that simple, but thus far, no one has the political stones to do it.
AJ,
1. On trade the conservative position for decades as advocated by Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell and others has been free trade. Scores of countries have boomed by following this policy. Trump, Sanders and Hugo Chavez bad mouth all trade agreements and favor protectionism.
2. On multiple occasions, Trump has praised Bernie Sanders’ single payer approach. That puts him to the left of Hillary.
3. I appreciate those who actually become pro-life. The shallowness of Trump’s “conversion” was shown when he didn’t even understand the position and was made to look a fool by Chris Matthews when he said that women should be punished.
4. On Principled Conservatives: None of us promised to support the Republican nominee. If I could be convinced that Trump was actually more conservative than Hillary and was fit to serve, I would vote for him. Both Hillary and Trump are completely unfit to serve, and I literally can’t tell who is more liberal and who would be worse.
AJ, yep, I found one and maybe two — I have to do more research on the second one — but, yes, I’m not referring to Johnson when I talk about voting 3rd party.
I agree there’s sometimes a place for collectively banding together to stop something. However, there are other times we must separate and stand alone, or among few others, according to our individual consciences. God created us such diverse people, and none of us thinks exactly alike, of course. Sometimes we can join in with a group, individual differences notwithstanding, but other times we really can’t. It is quite clear from the Bible, I believe, that if participating in something, or in a certain way, violates any individual’s conscience, then that individual is to abstain, whatever everybody or most everyone else is doing.
The earthly consequences of having a divided electorate, even if and when it leads to detrimental policies, pale in comparison to the consequences of disregarding the call of the Holy Spirit to conduct ourselves according to the way in which we are led of Him, including in our voting practices.
AJ — not shocked the IRS didn’t share the SS numbers with Immigration or vice versa. Nor am I shocked that people weren’t notified. Privacy laws and jurisdiction battles have slowed inter-bureaucratic sharing to a crawl. One hand doesn’t know what the other hand is doing. Not to mention, the employers should have a fairly good idea the numbers are false or borrowed. Yes sure illegal immigration creates this problem but employers and bureaucracy enable this. The illegals are simply fulfill a market need (cheap labour) which any good supporter of capitalism should support. And as a leftist, any time the working wo/man, who is simply trying to provide for her/his family, is oppressed, they’ve got my attention.
Speaking of illegal immigration, Trump was in Mexico for a photo op. When asked if they discussed the cost of the wall and who’s paying, he replied the issue wasn’t raised. Now I don’t think he will ever build the wall but I imagine a multi-billion contract will be given to one company who will promptly subcontract it out who will sub contract it further, etc. Each time the contractor will take a cut for essentially passing the contract onward. In the end, the last contractor will have so little money left he will be force to hire illegal immigrants to build the wall.
It never ceases to amaze me that so-called fiscal conservatives will always find money to pay for things that scare them (war, immigrants, crime) but never find money to spend on things which will have a long term benefit (infrastructure, public health, education).
I don’t understand Sean Hannity’s point — is the president so omnipotent that Congress could do nothing to stop these ills and that under a President Clinton, all the Republicans in the House/Senate will be reduced to useless posturing good for only naming post offices. They are the legislature — start legislating. Repealing Obamacare for the 49th time doesn’t count.
I’ve said this before here; the pro-life movement won. The rate of abortions in the US is at pre Roe vs Wade levels. And this without rolling back the decision. You can’t compel morality — in fact, abortion rates are usually higher in countries with restrictive laws. Canada with no law on abortions at all has a slightly lower rate than the US.
The Supreme Count composition is both a red herring and fear tactic of some Trump supporters. You don’t need the Supreme Court to roll back the abortion rate — education, birth control, fetal information, access to technology, free natal and post natal care, eliminating financial barriers , etc will be more effective than the brute force of the state.
Roe vs Wade won’t be rolled back because the constitutional arguments used there were used later in areas of law that had nothing to do with abortion and hence a roll back will case a domino effect. Yet the Republicans fear mongering about the composition of the court — and will appoint a somewhat socially conservative but corporatist friendly judge who will simply continue the current trend — and I’m sure will be nice to Trump’s tax appeal.
Its not a choice between Hitler and Stalin — that’s hyperbole. Its simply a choice a competent but corrupt politician or a corrupt and erratic failed businessman. Their respective platforms shouldn’t be a consideration — Clinton will be slightly to the right of Obama; more corporate friendly and definitely more corrupt. whereas Trump won’t follow through with his promises, be more concerned with his own bottom line, won’t be consistent, and ….. I really don’t know he’ll do whatever his gut or his kids or his friends or breitbart.com tell him.
Trump isn’t Hitler if he has any principle, ideology or methodology, he’s closer to Mussolini and the more modern version, Berlusconi. Ricky’s characteristics also fit these “gentleman”. Other European examples include the National Front. Umberto Eco wrote an essay called Ur-Fascism in which he listed 14 elements of fascism. Its worth a read.
You are correct (I hope) that my mention of Hitler and Stalin is hyperbole, and I can see in retrospect that the comparison could create more heat than light. I apologize for that.
What I am trying to say is that I believe that both candidates are so terribly bad that I can’t in good conscience vote for either. My impression of Mr. Trump is that he is authoritarian and emotionally unstable. I think he would be extremely dangerous as President. I was reading in 1 Corinthians 5:11 today. It says, “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person.” Mr. Trump seems to be sexually immoral, covetous, and a reviler at the very least. When it is convenient for him, he claims to be a brother. I don’t want to keep company with him, even with my vote.
I don’t think I have to explain why I don’t feel comfortable voting for Mrs. Clinton.
Ramesh Ponnuru has attempted to analyze the job facing Republicans after the election. He notes that the typical Trump primary voter was less educated and religious than most Republicans. As HRW suggested at 7:22, this voter had much in common with recent European voters of the Right.
I have been trying to figure out if Trump is the founder of a movement or just a gifted con man/demagogue/cult leader. The easy victories of Ryan and Rubio over Trumpkins make me think Trump is more Jim Jones than Robert LaFollette. What allowed Trump to take the Republican Party down the tubes this year is that he had Sean Hannity, Little Jerry Falwell, Rush Limbaugh, Robert Jeffress and others passing out the koolaid.
Its extremely profitable to run as the Republican canidate for president, so 16 men with money on their mind and book deals to chase choose their needs over the country and stayed in the race longer than necessary. Meanwhile the party changed the rules so a winner coukd be declared early the later states and democracy forgotten. Trump then is the triumph of greed and convenience.
“4. On Principled Conservatives: None of us promised to support the Republican nominee. If I could be convinced that Trump was actually more conservative than Hillary and was fit to serve, I would vote for him. Both Hillary and Trump are completely unfit to serve, and I literally can’t tell who is more liberal and who would be worse.”
Perhaps I was not clear enough in my post. I was not referring to you or anyone here. I was talking about Republican politicians, pundits like Goldberg, and half of the Weekly Standard staff, as well as National Review, and other political insiders who all called for the loyalty pledge. They were so sure he couldn’t win and thought this the way to his and his followers support for the eventual nominee. It backfired, and now those same politicians and pundits are going back on their word by not supporting Trump. They demanded this pledge, and then discarded it when they lost. They publicly pledged to support him, and now won’t.
None are men of their word. They, are who I was referring too.
“I’ve said this before here; the pro-life movement won. The rate of abortions in the US is at pre Roe vs Wade levels. And this without rolling back the decision. You can’t compel morality — in fact, abortion rates are usually higher in countries with restrictive laws. Canada with no law on abortions at all has a slightly lower rate than the US.”
While that may be true in the US, the US and UN are making sure access to it is expanded in third world countries like Africa. It was one of Obama’s very first acts as president. This is yet another example of the power a President can wield on the issue.
From January 2009, just days after his inauguration.
” President Obama struck down a rule Friday that prohibits U.S. money from funding international family-planning clinics that promote abortion or provide counseling or referrals about abortion services.
Obama said in a statement that family planning aid has been used as a “political wedge issue,” adding that he had “no desire to continue this stale and fruitless debate.”
The policy says any organization receiving U.S. family-planning funds from the U.S. Agency for International Development cannot offer abortions or abortion counseling.
“It is time we end the politicization of this issue,” Obama said. “In the coming weeks, my administration will initiate a fresh conversation on family planning, working to find areas of common ground to best meet the needs of women and families at home and around the world.”
Obama’s memorandum reversing the policy comes the day after the 36th anniversary of Roe v. Wade. The landmark 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision held that a woman’s right to an abortion fell within the right to privacy protected by the 14th Amendment. The ruling gave a woman autonomy over her pregnancy during the first trimester. Video Watch CNN’s Bill Schneider on how Obama is handling abortion issue »
The memorandum reverses the “Mexico City policy,” initiated by President Reagan in 1984, canceled by President Clinton and reinstated by President George W. Bush in 2001.
The policy, referred to by critics as “the global gag rule,” was initially announced at a population conference in Mexico City.”
AJ, Please show me where Jonah Goldberg, Bill Kristol, Fred Barnes, Steve Hayes, Rich Lowry, Kevin D. Williamson, or Ramesh Ponnuru ever “publicly pledged to support” the Republican nominee. If National Review had been “so sure he couldn’t win”, they would never have printed an entire special issue titled “Against Trump” in the winter in an attempt to prevent the lunatic from getting the nomination.
I get the idea of voting for the lesser of 2 evils and I generally accept it as part of the real (and fallen) world we live in. The lesser of 2 evils is still a lesser evil. It seems that, to one degree or another, that always can be viewed as our choice in any given presidential election.
This cycle offers us 2 exceptionally dismal choices, amen?
But the foundation, the shift in our cultural base, has brought us here. So this is what we have.
If I lived in a swing state, I’d probably take a big gulp, close my eyes and vote Republican. And probably never admit to it afterward. But since I’m not in a swing state, I feel like I can opt out of this one.
Sad state of affairs.
I still believe Clinton for 4 years (after 8 long, tortuous years of similar leadership and seeing the openings that will occur on the Supreme Court) is the worse option, but I wouldn’t put any money on that prediction. It could be a close call. 🙂
The thing is, AJ, it didnt matter. The abortion rate in developing countries although higher than the US has been in steady decline during Obama’s presidency.
Legislation, rules and restriction make no difference. In fact, countries with struct controls have a higher rate. This is really apparent in Latin America and some Muslim countries.
The real variable is contraception and knowledge thereof. More widely available in the developed world, it has reduced elective abortions. And in addition more readily available natal care and financial assistance reduces other incentives for abortion.
As much as you can’t compel morality through the state in the US you can’t do it elsewhere either. Information, medical care, assistance, are far more enticing and helpful than brute force.
Wandering Views 
Yet another reason to crack down on illegal immigration. And yet another reason to crack down on the IRS for not only aiding these lawbreakers, but for sticking it to American citizens who were victims of these illegal criminals.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/30/irs-doesnt-tell-1-million-taxpayers-that-illegal-i/
“The IRS has discovered more than 1 million Americans whose Social Security numbers were stolen by illegal immigrants, but officials never bothered to tell the taxpayers themselves, the agency’s inspector general said in a withering new report released Tuesday.
Investigators first alerted the IRS to the problem five years ago, but it’s still not fixed, the inspector general said, and a pilot program meant to test a solution was canceled — and fell woefully short anyway.
As a result, most taxpayers don’t learn that their identities have been stolen and their Social Security files may be screwed up.
“Taxpayers identified as victims of employment-related identity theft are not notified,” the inspector general said.
The report alarmed lawmakers on Capitol Hill, who were shocked that the IRS had gone for so long without fixing the issue.
“It is stunning that the IRS has chosen to aid and abet identity thieves for so long instead of protecting the innocent victims of the theft,” said Sen. Daniel Coats, Indiana Republican.”
———————————-
Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.
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What can Bill Clinton say that is worth $550,000,00?
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“I did not have sex with that woman”
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Haha
Good one.
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I’m still feeling a real disconnect with this entire election cycle.
My sense is that the culture (as reflected in our disheartening political choices) has moved so far afield at this point, I no longer “feel” a part of any of it to a great degree. I’ll vote (though probably not for president this time around), but for the most part the country is off on it’s own track now, deeply separated from the values and virtues I view as most important for a nation to uphold.
It’s all quite strange. Freeing, in a way, but strange and sad, too.
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Speaking of culture:
“This year alone, laws were proposed that would force Christian colleges to deny their beliefs, and a federal directive demanded that schools nationwide accommodate transgender students in both restrooms and athletics. And this march is accompanied by the persistent media drumbeat that “the science is settled” on these issues.”
Does that mean that men can play on the women’s basketball teams?
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DJ – I’ve been feeling much the same way.
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Time to shake things up a little. And no, I’m not doing this to tick anyone off, I’m truly trying to understand the reasoning of the “Never Trumpers”.
I know Hannity is Trump’s favorite mouthpiece (The leftist media aren’t the only ones who show their bias), but does he have a point? Seems to me he does. I think he goes a little overboard, but many of these concerns are valid. Not voting, or doing something silly like voting for your dog (If I wanted a lazy candidate that sleeps all the time and mooches off of me I’d just vote for Hillary), and is a vote for Hillary, whether you like it or not. Do those of you not planning to vote for Trump not see that they will share the blame for a Hillary presidency?
And don’t give me the “well my vote won’t matter”, or “I’m voting 3rd party” stuff. I’ve heard several people I know and value the opinion of say they’ll do the latter because their conscience just won’t let them vote for Trump. But you’ll vote for a pro-choice candidate and that doesn’t upset your conscience? It’s the same as a vote for Hillary. There are only 2 real choices here. It’s time for people to admit the obvious.
Here’s what Hannity had to say…..
————————————————-
““Well, let me just say to all of you. And that includes the commentator class. That includes the Jonah Goldberg class, that includes radio talk show hosts. Glenn Beck is like on a — it’s a holy war for him at this point. I mean, he’s off the rails attacking me every day. Blaming me for Trump. Well, no. I was fair to everybody, Glenn. Whether you want to admit it or not. I know I was fair. My conscience is clear. And I, frankly, I’m proud to pull the lever for Donald Trump with a clear conscience.”…
“So here’s what I say to all of you Never Trumpers — Glenn Beck, I hope you’re listening. You own Hillary Clinton’s Supreme Court appointments. You own it! You are doing everything you can do to cast doubt in people’s minds! Trump gave us a list. You own her Supreme Court nominees, you own her un-vetted refugees and the 550% increase she will bring into this country. You own the jobs that illegal immigrants will take from the 95 million Americans out of the labor force. You own Obamacare, which is a disaster for this country. You own education, because she is beholden to the NEA. And if we don’t improve the lives of 95 million Americans out of the labor force, I blame you for that too!”
“Because you’re helping elect her. And I’m also saying that, hey, we have a $4,100 increase in health care payments since Obama has been president. It’s only going to go higher. You get responsibility for that, too! We have got 12 million more Americans on food stamps. If that increases, I’m going to blame you! We have 46 million total. Eight million more Americans living in poverty. Fifty million Americans in poverty. If that gets worse, I’m blaming you! You know, we have the worst home ownership in 51 years. If that gets worse, guess who I’m blaming? I’m blaming all of you!””
—————————————————–
Thoughts?
And remember, no cussing. 🙂
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To answer your question, AJ, for me it is somewhat like a Hitler/Stalin choice. It is not enough to say that I should vote for Hitler to avoid Stalin, or vote for Stalin to avoid Hitler. Each candidate is so intrinsically evil, that I cannot vote for either one. The evil of candidate A does not compensate for the evil of candidate B.
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Thanks Didymus,
Now if you would be so kind, just what is it about Trump that you think it is that puts him on par with Stalin and Hitler? What evil on a massive scale has he committed that warrants being compared to either? I don’t see millions of dead bodies in his wake. Seems like a complete exaggeration.
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1. Hannity and his ilk and the millions of deluded Trumpkins that listen to Hannity are the reason we are in this mess.
2. It is far from certain that Hillary is worse than Trump for the following reasons:
A. On some issues, i.e. trade and healthcare, his views are to the left of hers;
B. On other issues such as abortion, he is a very recent “convert’ to conservatism, and/or his views are subject to change on a moment-by-moment basis;
C. As bad as her character is (and it is horrible), his is much worse. This is why the 50 Republican national security experts favor her over him. They view him as unstable, infantile, ignorant and dangerous. If you disagree, look how he treated his wives, business partners, contractors, etc.
3. I am not going to be critical of anyone’s choice this year, whether they vote for Trump, Hillary, Johnson, McMullin, the Greenie or my son”s dog.
4. People who criticize others for not voting for Trump are not principled conservatives. They are either members of a Cult of Personality and/or they have not examined Trump’s utterances and past behavior.
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Maybe not millions but there are at least dozens of dead bodies in the Clinton’s wake….
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In 1940 (?) Concerning Hitler’s invasion of Russia, former president Herbert Hoover said, “We have nothing to choose between.” But we mad a a choice. If Germany had not had an eastern front, the western front would have been a disaster.
When you have a choice between only two possible outcomes, you choose the one that works at the time.
Trump can’t be as bad as Hillary.
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Ah, history! Actually, we did not make a choice in the early 1940s. Hitler made the choice. After Pearl Harbor, the US and Japan declared war on each other. Then Hitler, in compliance with his promise to the Japanese, declared war on the US. Only following this German declaration of war, did the US declare war on Germany. Historians have speculated on what would have happened if Hitler had not honored his commitment to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor. Many believe the US would not have declared war on Germany, at least not until some other dramatic event occurred.
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Trump and Hitler have many small things in common:
1. Scapegoating
2. Complete amorality
3. Effective Demagoguery
4. Reliance on the uneducated lower middle class
5. Megalomania
6. Fondness for mass rallies
7. Appeal to nationalism
8. Innovative use of new technology in campaigns
9. Ability to sense and exploit weakness in an opponent.
However, their greatest similarity is illustrated in the story told above: They are prone to huge, catastrophic unforced errors (possibly induced by the megalomania).
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AJ:
(Emphasis mine.)
Voting 3rd party does not mean one is necessarily voting pro-choice. I will be voting for a 3rd party pro-life candidate. They do exist.
Please don’t broad-brush.
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We don’t all need to be walking in lockstep politically in order for God’s good purposes to be accomplished.
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AJ, First I want you to understand that I am Pro-Life. I was 18 weeks pregnant when I watch BG bat her hands against a needle inserted into her space.
I do not believe we are going to win the abortion battle politically. I do not believe any single candidate much less President is going to turn back that decision.
The battle is going to be won one person at a time. It is going to be won by the medical community. As medicine advances to the degree that a premature baby born earlier and earlier in the pregnancy survives and thrives people will individually realize that it is a life they are taking when they choose abortion.
In this “political climate” it is political suicide to come out and say you are anti-abortion. You cannot win that argument. I had a professor in college that said the only way to deal with it was to wear a pager and have yourself paged so you could excuse yourself.
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Ricky,
On a few of your list I can see your point. But I have some questions…..
“A. On some issues, i.e. trade and healthcare, his views are to the left of hers;”
Examples please.
—————————-
“B. On other issues such as abortion, he is a very recent “convert’ to conservatism, and/or his views are subject to change on a moment-by-moment basis;”
He’s changed it once, and for the better. Is a recent convert to the pro-life side not a much better option than one of the leading advocates of abortion? You know the answer is yes.
——————————————
And this one…
“4. People who criticize others for not voting for Trump are not principled conservatives. They are either members of a Cult of Personality and/or they have not examined Trump’s utterances and past behavior.”
Just a statement here. I find it funny that what you call a principled conservative is so willing to go back on their word and back whoever is nominated. They don’t get to claim the moral high ground when they failed to keep their word. Sorry.
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6 Arrows,
If you found one, then by all means vote how you wish. But Johnson ain’t that guy.
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As to your second post, fair enough. But when not doing so causes the continuation of policies that are detrimental to everyone and flat out evil, like abortion, we will all suffer the consequences for not doing all we could collectively to stop it. Just something to consider.
And thanks for answering.
You too Ricky and the rest.
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Ricky,
The Hitler comparisons are ridiculous, and don’t even warrant a response. You want that kind of low brow stuff, go over to HuffPo and amuse yourself. Others can debate it with you if they choose, but really, you can do better.
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Kim,
While much of what you said is true, I think you underestimate the power a president has when it comes to abortion. As Obama has shown us with restrictive laws against conscientious objectors to it, restricting pro-life groups via the IRS, funding the groups who perform it, and openly promoting it as the leader of the free world. The President has alot more power to sway things then you give them credit for.
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And let’s be honest, if they wanted to, they could veto any legislation that funds Planned Parenthood and the like. It really is that simple, but thus far, no one has the political stones to do it.
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They could cut down the number in no time.
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Trump doesn’t think Iran is our friend.
Trump doesn’t think the police are our enemy.
He ain’t Hillary.
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AJ,
1. On trade the conservative position for decades as advocated by Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell and others has been free trade. Scores of countries have boomed by following this policy. Trump, Sanders and Hugo Chavez bad mouth all trade agreements and favor protectionism.
2. On multiple occasions, Trump has praised Bernie Sanders’ single payer approach. That puts him to the left of Hillary.
3. I appreciate those who actually become pro-life. The shallowness of Trump’s “conversion” was shown when he didn’t even understand the position and was made to look a fool by Chris Matthews when he said that women should be punished.
4. On Principled Conservatives: None of us promised to support the Republican nominee. If I could be convinced that Trump was actually more conservative than Hillary and was fit to serve, I would vote for him. Both Hillary and Trump are completely unfit to serve, and I literally can’t tell who is more liberal and who would be worse.
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AJ, Name one item in the Hitler comparison that is inaccurate.
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AJ, yep, I found one and maybe two — I have to do more research on the second one — but, yes, I’m not referring to Johnson when I talk about voting 3rd party.
I agree there’s sometimes a place for collectively banding together to stop something. However, there are other times we must separate and stand alone, or among few others, according to our individual consciences. God created us such diverse people, and none of us thinks exactly alike, of course. Sometimes we can join in with a group, individual differences notwithstanding, but other times we really can’t. It is quite clear from the Bible, I believe, that if participating in something, or in a certain way, violates any individual’s conscience, then that individual is to abstain, whatever everybody or most everyone else is doing.
The earthly consequences of having a divided electorate, even if and when it leads to detrimental policies, pale in comparison to the consequences of disregarding the call of the Holy Spirit to conduct ourselves according to the way in which we are led of Him, including in our voting practices.
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P.S. AJ — And thank you for asking. This is a good discussion.
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AJ — not shocked the IRS didn’t share the SS numbers with Immigration or vice versa. Nor am I shocked that people weren’t notified. Privacy laws and jurisdiction battles have slowed inter-bureaucratic sharing to a crawl. One hand doesn’t know what the other hand is doing. Not to mention, the employers should have a fairly good idea the numbers are false or borrowed. Yes sure illegal immigration creates this problem but employers and bureaucracy enable this. The illegals are simply fulfill a market need (cheap labour) which any good supporter of capitalism should support. And as a leftist, any time the working wo/man, who is simply trying to provide for her/his family, is oppressed, they’ve got my attention.
Speaking of illegal immigration, Trump was in Mexico for a photo op. When asked if they discussed the cost of the wall and who’s paying, he replied the issue wasn’t raised. Now I don’t think he will ever build the wall but I imagine a multi-billion contract will be given to one company who will promptly subcontract it out who will sub contract it further, etc. Each time the contractor will take a cut for essentially passing the contract onward. In the end, the last contractor will have so little money left he will be force to hire illegal immigrants to build the wall.
It never ceases to amaze me that so-called fiscal conservatives will always find money to pay for things that scare them (war, immigrants, crime) but never find money to spend on things which will have a long term benefit (infrastructure, public health, education).
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I don’t understand Sean Hannity’s point — is the president so omnipotent that Congress could do nothing to stop these ills and that under a President Clinton, all the Republicans in the House/Senate will be reduced to useless posturing good for only naming post offices. They are the legislature — start legislating. Repealing Obamacare for the 49th time doesn’t count.
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I’ve said this before here; the pro-life movement won. The rate of abortions in the US is at pre Roe vs Wade levels. And this without rolling back the decision. You can’t compel morality — in fact, abortion rates are usually higher in countries with restrictive laws. Canada with no law on abortions at all has a slightly lower rate than the US.
The Supreme Count composition is both a red herring and fear tactic of some Trump supporters. You don’t need the Supreme Court to roll back the abortion rate — education, birth control, fetal information, access to technology, free natal and post natal care, eliminating financial barriers , etc will be more effective than the brute force of the state.
Roe vs Wade won’t be rolled back because the constitutional arguments used there were used later in areas of law that had nothing to do with abortion and hence a roll back will case a domino effect. Yet the Republicans fear mongering about the composition of the court — and will appoint a somewhat socially conservative but corporatist friendly judge who will simply continue the current trend — and I’m sure will be nice to Trump’s tax appeal.
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Its not a choice between Hitler and Stalin — that’s hyperbole. Its simply a choice a competent but corrupt politician or a corrupt and erratic failed businessman. Their respective platforms shouldn’t be a consideration — Clinton will be slightly to the right of Obama; more corporate friendly and definitely more corrupt. whereas Trump won’t follow through with his promises, be more concerned with his own bottom line, won’t be consistent, and ….. I really don’t know he’ll do whatever his gut or his kids or his friends or breitbart.com tell him.
Trump isn’t Hitler if he has any principle, ideology or methodology, he’s closer to Mussolini and the more modern version, Berlusconi. Ricky’s characteristics also fit these “gentleman”. Other European examples include the National Front. Umberto Eco wrote an essay called Ur-Fascism in which he listed 14 elements of fascism. Its worth a read.
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Hi AJ,
You are correct (I hope) that my mention of Hitler and Stalin is hyperbole, and I can see in retrospect that the comparison could create more heat than light. I apologize for that.
What I am trying to say is that I believe that both candidates are so terribly bad that I can’t in good conscience vote for either. My impression of Mr. Trump is that he is authoritarian and emotionally unstable. I think he would be extremely dangerous as President. I was reading in 1 Corinthians 5:11 today. It says, “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person.” Mr. Trump seems to be sexually immoral, covetous, and a reviler at the very least. When it is convenient for him, he claims to be a brother. I don’t want to keep company with him, even with my vote.
I don’t think I have to explain why I don’t feel comfortable voting for Mrs. Clinton.
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When I went to find an online definition of megalomania, I was amused at what I found:
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/megalomania
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Ramesh Ponnuru has attempted to analyze the job facing Republicans after the election. He notes that the typical Trump primary voter was less educated and religious than most Republicans. As HRW suggested at 7:22, this voter had much in common with recent European voters of the Right.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439518/donald-trumps-2016-election-defeat-gop-future
I have been trying to figure out if Trump is the founder of a movement or just a gifted con man/demagogue/cult leader. The easy victories of Ryan and Rubio over Trumpkins make me think Trump is more Jim Jones than Robert LaFollette. What allowed Trump to take the Republican Party down the tubes this year is that he had Sean Hannity, Little Jerry Falwell, Rush Limbaugh, Robert Jeffress and others passing out the koolaid.
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Its extremely profitable to run as the Republican canidate for president, so 16 men with money on their mind and book deals to chase choose their needs over the country and stayed in the race longer than necessary. Meanwhile the party changed the rules so a winner coukd be declared early the later states and democracy forgotten. Trump then is the triumph of greed and convenience.
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Ricky,
“4. On Principled Conservatives: None of us promised to support the Republican nominee. If I could be convinced that Trump was actually more conservative than Hillary and was fit to serve, I would vote for him. Both Hillary and Trump are completely unfit to serve, and I literally can’t tell who is more liberal and who would be worse.”
Perhaps I was not clear enough in my post. I was not referring to you or anyone here. I was talking about Republican politicians, pundits like Goldberg, and half of the Weekly Standard staff, as well as National Review, and other political insiders who all called for the loyalty pledge. They were so sure he couldn’t win and thought this the way to his and his followers support for the eventual nominee. It backfired, and now those same politicians and pundits are going back on their word by not supporting Trump. They demanded this pledge, and then discarded it when they lost. They publicly pledged to support him, and now won’t.
None are men of their word. They, are who I was referring too.
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HRW,
“I’ve said this before here; the pro-life movement won. The rate of abortions in the US is at pre Roe vs Wade levels. And this without rolling back the decision. You can’t compel morality — in fact, abortion rates are usually higher in countries with restrictive laws. Canada with no law on abortions at all has a slightly lower rate than the US.”
While that may be true in the US, the US and UN are making sure access to it is expanded in third world countries like Africa. It was one of Obama’s very first acts as president. This is yet another example of the power a President can wield on the issue.
From January 2009, just days after his inauguration.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/23/obama.abortion/
” President Obama struck down a rule Friday that prohibits U.S. money from funding international family-planning clinics that promote abortion or provide counseling or referrals about abortion services.
Obama said in a statement that family planning aid has been used as a “political wedge issue,” adding that he had “no desire to continue this stale and fruitless debate.”
The policy says any organization receiving U.S. family-planning funds from the U.S. Agency for International Development cannot offer abortions or abortion counseling.
“It is time we end the politicization of this issue,” Obama said. “In the coming weeks, my administration will initiate a fresh conversation on family planning, working to find areas of common ground to best meet the needs of women and families at home and around the world.”
Obama’s memorandum reversing the policy comes the day after the 36th anniversary of Roe v. Wade. The landmark 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision held that a woman’s right to an abortion fell within the right to privacy protected by the 14th Amendment. The ruling gave a woman autonomy over her pregnancy during the first trimester. Video Watch CNN’s Bill Schneider on how Obama is handling abortion issue »
The memorandum reverses the “Mexico City policy,” initiated by President Reagan in 1984, canceled by President Clinton and reinstated by President George W. Bush in 2001.
The policy, referred to by critics as “the global gag rule,” was initially announced at a population conference in Mexico City.”
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AJ, Please show me where Jonah Goldberg, Bill Kristol, Fred Barnes, Steve Hayes, Rich Lowry, Kevin D. Williamson, or Ramesh Ponnuru ever “publicly pledged to support” the Republican nominee. If National Review had been “so sure he couldn’t win”, they would never have printed an entire special issue titled “Against Trump” in the winter in an attempt to prevent the lunatic from getting the nomination.
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Speaking of Goldberg, he has not lost his sense of humor:
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I get the idea of voting for the lesser of 2 evils and I generally accept it as part of the real (and fallen) world we live in. The lesser of 2 evils is still a lesser evil. It seems that, to one degree or another, that always can be viewed as our choice in any given presidential election.
This cycle offers us 2 exceptionally dismal choices, amen?
But the foundation, the shift in our cultural base, has brought us here. So this is what we have.
If I lived in a swing state, I’d probably take a big gulp, close my eyes and vote Republican. And probably never admit to it afterward. But since I’m not in a swing state, I feel like I can opt out of this one.
Sad state of affairs.
I still believe Clinton for 4 years (after 8 long, tortuous years of similar leadership and seeing the openings that will occur on the Supreme Court) is the worse option, but I wouldn’t put any money on that prediction. It could be a close call. 🙂
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The thing is, AJ, it didnt matter. The abortion rate in developing countries although higher than the US has been in steady decline during Obama’s presidency.
Legislation, rules and restriction make no difference. In fact, countries with struct controls have a higher rate. This is really apparent in Latin America and some Muslim countries.
The real variable is contraception and knowledge thereof. More widely available in the developed world, it has reduced elective abortions. And in addition more readily available natal care and financial assistance reduces other incentives for abortion.
As much as you can’t compel morality through the state in the US you can’t do it elsewhere either. Information, medical care, assistance, are far more enticing and helpful than brute force.
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Ricky,
You may be correct on Goldberg, As for Bill Kristol…… Here you go.
“Bill Kristol ✔ @BillKristol
Problem: Party seems like a closed group of insiders resistant to new faces and ideas.
Solution: A loyalty pledge.
4:34 PM – 2 Sep 2015”
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