I saw you over on the prayer thread when there was not a this thread to say good morning on. Rainy here as well but I suspect it is not closely tied to any hurricanes. Though that whole if a butterfly flaps its wings thing.
Aren’t those happy. Flowers are special for the very reason that they don’t last.
I know Nightingale loves you.
I have a second cousin on my mother’s side who grew up with just her mother and grandmother. Our grandmothers were sisters and lived side by side in a duplex. When we visited I always wanted to “go in at the door”. Her grandmother was much more lovable than mine and was the only person who could trick me in to napping as a child.
Oldest son gave me an orchid years ago. It blooms a long time and then, with minimal care, puts up a new bloom or two in the coming months. One of these years, I plan to divide it as it has lots of babies. I send him a pic every time it starts to bloom.
My church has a Memorial Day BBQ planned for drive up free sandwiches, chips, and cookies. I can help make cookies and help serve and be on site to pray if anyone needs prayer. I am not sure whether to go out there or not, but I can at least make some cookies.
Good morning! We are at the track this morning. Tonight is our big transition to the new facility. We have a double crew shift, one for patient care, the other to move stuff.
Ravi Zacharias came to speak at the city church one Sunday morning in 2017. I did not hear his whole message, as I had invited the Seconds to come, as I knew Second in-law was a fan, and Tiny was getting restless, so I took her partway out to let her parents listen to the rest. The church was crowded that day, with ardent Zacharias fans from surrounding communities who heard the news of his coming to our church coming to hear him in person. I remember one young couple rushing up to me in the hallway asking where Ravi was speaking, and the man saying, as they rushed by towards the sanctuary, “I’m so excited!”
Later, a couple who joined the church said the reason they started attending was they first came when Zacharias came to speak, and they decided they wanted to attend a church that had those kind of connections. The city church did have many ‘connections’, but I knew nothing of them when I started coming, because those who were ‘somebody’ in the church made nothing of it, as they had the rare humility to see that the ‘nobodies’ were just as valuable to the kingdom.
During this pandemic, I received news that one of the women I had volunteered with in a city church outreach ministry had passed away shortly after being diagnosed with lung cancer. She was a ‘nobody’, having left school to work in a factory in her teens, lived a rough life, always in poverty, cared 15 years for a husband completely debilitated by a stroke, raising her five children without his help. I loved to listen to her life stories, and they were astonishing in their scope, from being intimidated to leave her apartment by Mafia hired to clear it out by a construction company to working on an airfield in northern BC that flew cargo to the remote north, her life was full. She came to Christ later in life, and lived her widowhood in service to others, of which the outreach I joined her in was one of many. She lived on her pension, she was small and insignificant looking. But in our reminiscences of her online, since we could not gather for a memorial, the worship and arts pastor summed it up by saying he always told her, as she served in the church throughout the week, that he wanted “to be like you when I grow up.” When I think of the widow casting her mites into the temple treasury, my model is Joan.
Of course. Beautiful in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints. All of them. Even the well known ones. God knows them all and uses them for His purposes. We rejoice when they get to go Home and we mourn that their families and friends have lost them.
I am virtually certain that, like most of the big names, he would not want people looking to him but to Him, grateful to have been His tool.
Morning! Oh so beautiful roses up there!
Ravi was a much read and loved author in this household. He will be sadly missed…if only for a little while…..”when we all get to heaven”…..
Another hot one will be in this forest…high fire danger with the winds whipping about. 😳
Chas, it you get the same playlist afterwards I did, you will want to listen. Were You There When They Crucified My Lord features your favorite Carter sister
Zacharias spoke at a Ligonier conference I attended some years ago, and I’ve read a book or two he’d written. I haven’t followed him closely, but appreciated his ministry. Was saddened and a bit surprised to read of his passing here.
Such beautiful roses, and I love the blue vase.
I was going to try to work half a day today but will nix that idea, I have the 1 p.m. Xray followed by another video conference w/the doctor — also have a prescription to pick up. Hopefully I’ll be ready to work again tomorrow. The knee is getting better, still stiff and painful to some degree (I again couldn’t find a comfortable position last night, I’m a side-sleeper but either side makes the knee throb so I’m having to sleep on my back, not the most comfortable position).
After sending in my complaint that the TP I ordered wasn’t what arrived, looks like they’re re-sending the original item ordered with no request to return the smaller package. We’ll see, they sent me a new tracking number for something arriving tomorrow.
Or maybe it’s just a package of rolls that will make up for the missing ones in the original shipment.
All automated replies pretty much, so I wonder if this happened with quite a few folks who ordered the 20-roll pack but only received the 12.
RZIM is located a little north of where we live. I never saw Ravi in person but use to listen to him on Sunday mornings before church. He seemed to be a really fine person who could reach people with the gospel in ways others did not. At one point I heard that his daughter attended Covenant College near the time Wesley was there. Also, one of Ravi’s coworkers who made video presentations with Ravi had been a college roommate of one of our church mrmbers at an Ivy League school, maybe Princeton? I think with Ravi’s Indian background that he would have been extremely conscious of class differences. I never heard anything to indicate that he considered himself to be on a higher level than others although his intellect could have made him appear that way. He always seemed quite humble from my perspective.
~ Two months into California’s shelter-in-place order, locals are restless. As spring fever takes hold, people are pouring onto the beaches in large numbers and protesting Gov. Gavin Newsom’s continued restrictions. Grocery stores once full of mask-covered shoppers scanning for toilet paper and pasta now have a more relaxed vibe: In early May, less than half of the shoppers in a San Clemente grocery store were wearing masks, even as an employee announced over the intercom that face coverings were required.
Shutdowns are taking their toll, creating economic hardship, lost educational hours, and mental health problems. Increasingly, people are searching for another way and pointing to a country roughly the same size as California taking a radically different approach to the virus: Sweden. The Scandinavian country has boldly condemned lockdowns since day one, and images of joyful Swedes gathering in restaurants and appearing to live as usual taunt those across the Atlantic feeling the brunt of the economic shutdown.
Multiple theories have emerged, each staking claims on the million (or multi-trillion) dollar question: How do we open struggling businesses while preventing new outbreaks that could cripple healthcare systems? Some medical professionals say the data support the Swedish model, while others urge caution, claiming Sweden’s numbers are alarming. Other countries have implemented measures which probably won’t work in the U.S. But the debate isn’t just about achieving the optimal level of social distancing. What scientists believe about fatality rates and immunity affects their views on Sweden’s approach and the policies they embrace for jumpstarting the U.S. economy. … ~
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As the article goes on to point out, Sweden has quite a low population density, being about twice the size of California, with half the population. Also, Sweden did place restrictions, banning gatherings of over 50 people. Sweden’s caseload is at just over 30,000 with just over 3,700 deaths – that is over a ten percent mortality rate of known cases. Besides, I think the original purpose of the closures has been lost sight of, which was to prevent the healthcare system from being overloaded. New York got very close to being overwhelmed, as it shutdown rather late in its outbreak, which went unnoticed for a while. The shutdowns were successful in preventing that, but as was pointed out at the time, if the shutdowns were successful, it would be said we overreacted. There was one way in which every Western country did suffer a complete breakdown in healthcare due to this, and that was in long term care, and Sweden was not exempt as the article relates. I appreciate World’s attempt to tell both viewpoints, but I have to say the person who argued against the social distancing measures taken does not inspire confidence. People who talk carelessly about willingly injecting themselves with diseases do not come across as trustworthy on health and safety matters.
I found an old copy of The Grapes of Wrath, a book which I’ve never read. I’m to the part where the Joads finally arrive at the valley. I have to wonder how many current residents of the Bakersfield area are descendants of the Okies. How many elderly men and women were among those who crossed the Mojave at night in their beat up jalopies. It’s sad that the Californians treated them badly. Perhaps they didn’t realize that their ancestors were the “Okies” of the 1850s who arrived to seek their fortunes in gold. Were they treated harshly by the Mexican and Native Americans who inhabited the land before them?
It’s human nature to resist outsiders, yet most of us born in the US are descended from people who came from elsewhere.
My parents had a copy of The Grapes of Wrath. I tried reading it as a teen, but found it too grim. I have seen the 1940 film adaption by the great American director, John Ford. Canadians experienced a similar uprooting and migration in the Depression era. My maternal grandmother came at three from England with her family and she later wrote to me and Youngest stories of how they went from community to community looking for work. Her father had been wounded and taken as a POW in the Great War, and had been rehabilitated as a watchmaker, a trade difficult to establish in Depression era Canada. She was in her teens before they finally settled in one place.
Roscuro and Peter, I did manage to get through the Grapes of Wrath–once. I like a lot of Steinbeck, but that one is indeed “too grim.” If I recall correctly, the movie ends on a hopeful note when things might be getting better, but the book only pauses briefly at what turns out to be false hope and then really digs in the screws. But it has been many years since I’ve read it, and my reading the book and watching the movie were years apart, so I may be in error.
When I went to the mailbox, I found ant hive in it. I am sympathizing with Michelle.
For some years I have been battling an earwig colony in the mailbox. Lately I had seen some smallish ants in there when I got the mail. Thank goodness I had on my gardening gloves when I first wiped over the bit of clay dirt in the box. It really stirred them up. I got a trowel to scrape it out and saw what looked to be hundreds of eggs. I had to use another approach. I found a new container of Kaboom, a bathroom foaming cleaner which I had bought when almost every other product had been sold out. I used it to spray the inside and let it stay a few moments before wiping down with a paper towel. In the meantime, I saw the kitchen door was wide open and Miss Bosley was in the carport. She knew she had misbehaved by escaping so she hung down her head and scooted back inside. She is trying to catch fleas again!
I hear the mail truck at my mailbox. Curious how it is just sitting there. Hmm . . . I hope Kaboom was not a steroid for the ants. I am so thankful that I got it cleaned up before the mail got shoved into that ant nursery.
Husband is up in the pines cutting out dead and cracked branches. I love that he is extra cautious with his climbing gear and anchors. We did have a disconcerting discovery though. We took photos and sent them off to our forestry guy. Looks as though we may have fresh beetle hits on a tall pine out back…chopping it down and getting it out of here post-haste… may be happening tomorrow. 😳
While husband was hiking the Peak yesterday he came upon three 20 somethings hiking as well. They had on masks! He stopped and asked them what they were thinking wearing masks at almost 14,000 elevation and no one was around! The girl was extremely frightened staying way over in the woods away from him but the two young men said they may be asymptomatic and they wouldn’t want to infect anyone. Husband said he was not concerned and he would be the one they say would be most vulnerable being in his mid 60’s.
We were discussing the church in China which continues to meet in secret even knowing the risks of arrest or even worse. We had a great discussion over our coffee this morning.. 😊
I wonder if the unrelenting ending had something to do with the fact that at the time it was written the Depression was not history to Steinbeck, it was ongoing. Looking back at my own family’s experience of the same event, I know there was hope. My grandfather was able to establish a watchmaker’s shop, and my mother and her siblings occasionally helped out in it in their teens. There were other sorrows as my grandmother lost her older brother, to whom she was closest in age and friendship, when he was killed in Italy in World War II – last Remembrance Day, the Canadian government released all their records in digital form of those who had died in both world wars, and through it we found a letter, written by my great grandfather to the military during the time my great uncle was missing in action, that captures something of the agony they went through. But the Depression that marked so much of the beginning of my grandmother’s life had long been gone when she died in the early 2000s, while her legacy of faith and family keeps growing, with her first great grandchild now having his first child and her Youngest grandchild having a fifth child in these past few months.
Here is a balanced obituary on Ravi Zacharias. I have read many of his books, heard him in person several times, and contributed to his ministry. But I don’t think he “ended well” and do think there is call for caution. https://ministrywatch.com/ravi-zacharias-dead-at-74/
Ah but I believe Ravi did finish well. Yes he found himself stuck in the muck of human frailties and we were hugely disappointed when the trap was set for him in reference to the couple he met. In that matter I believe he lacked wisdom and accountability measures for which he found regret. And the doctorate usage was unfortunate as well. Yet… The Lord says, “Now, let’s settle the matter. You are stained red with sin, but I will wash you as clean as snow. Although your stains are deep red, you will be as white as wool. ❤️
Roscuro, I saw the World one too–thank you. But so far there are four comments on World’s obit, and all four of them are angry that they dared include a paragraph that suggests (mildly) that he made some errors in judgment. I think the obit is really too short, and doesn’t mention (as readers have commented) that he wrote books, and really skims over the controversy.
To me it is sad that he died without really “making it right” and thus died with a stained legacy. Had he been honest–and humble–it would have been helpful. David was a sinner, too, but his repentance was genuine, and thus God still used him. I think ultimately it wasn’t in the board’s “best interest” to really get to the bottom of all of it, and thus it was left unresolved and apparently (at least publicly) unrepented . . . which is really a tragedy.
I’ve got a FB Live going on right now, giving a Coast Guard friend of ours a Legion of Merit award. Wonderful I could see this terrific guy receive his second!
And, they made special note of how devoted he is to his church, his family and musical theater (his high school senior daughter is an actress). Nice job, Captain Fosse!
Here’s what I find most interesting about Sweden’s methods…..
Here’s another way to think about the very low risk to children. Sweden never closed its schools, and yet Sweden has one of the lowest pediatric infection rates in the industrialized world (and exactly one pediatric death from #COVID19). https://t.co/PMBFcztSa7
If it’s the same cat as a goalie video my brother posted on FB (it won’t display on my screen), I sent it on to my nephew, the goalie coach for the Portland Timbers2. 🙂
(Though, the poor guy has been reduced to home schooling his daughters and training them. I did see a video of him making them do pushups. They’re five and three.)
I’ve been out, traveling all the way to Rohnert Park again to social distance walk with Hillary–who is desperately trying to figure out how to get back to Italy.
Gorgeous day, just splendid, and a lot more cars on the road.
I haven’t “kept up” with Zacharias so really don’t know what the incident was about, I’ll have to read the obits to see.
Grapes of Wrath was grim, but I haven’t read it since high school. Saw the movie as well.
X-Ray done, results will take a few days. But I forgot to get the measles vaccine while I was there, doctor had said we could do that at the same time.
I do think when this virus comes around again — as it likely will before a vaccine is available — we’ll be wiser, calmer, better informed and will perhaps do things regarding the closures and the economy a bit differently.
For him to have been such a prominent person, I am amazed that was all that could be said in the negative about him. I choose to not dwell on the negative but to feel the joy of remembering his voice explain things in a way people needed to hear God’s message, the peace he related when he told of being at the point of suicide and how Christ rescued him, the love he expressed for people worldwide, and the hope of heaven where surely he is because it was evident that his life was truly dedicated to Jesus and making Him known.
My husband has made a statement a couple of times lately (it’s relevant in the RZ case, but that wasn’t what we were discussing at the time): (1) American Christians seem very quick to criticize political leaders, which Scripture doesn’t do and doesn’t encourage us doing. (We are told to honor and to submit, not to question and criticize . . . and no, that doesn’t mean there is never a place for criticism, but it needs to be done in that framework of honor and submission.) (2) American Christians are very, very hesitant to criticize religious leaders, even those who are very clearly wolves, which Scripture actually commands.
BTW, I am not saying Ravi Zacharias was a “wolf.” Honestly I have no idea. But when serious, systemic error was brought to light–and thoroughly documented–it was never dealt with. I was a very, very serious RZ supporter. I heard him in person four to six times, got in line to shake his hand, donated money to his ministry several times, read half a dozen of his books. One of the biggest disappointments of my professional career was that an RZ book was given to a colleague to edit and not to me–and we ended up not publishing the book, since my colleague flubbed the edit and lost us the contract on the book. So when I say that I’m no longer a supporter, and that I believe he died with unresolved scandal, I don’t say it with any glee and I don’t say it as someone who never liked him anyway. I say it as someone who greatly respected him for decades, who prayed that he would make this right, and who is heartily sad that he did not. But he basically “made up” his entire academic career, besides whatever did or didn’t happen with the woman (paying her off and signing a non-disclosure statement, and threatening suicide if she told her husband–none of that makes him look good) . . . and it’s serious enough to call his entire life into question. The lies go back decades, and while some of them ceased to be told after they were pointed out, they were never repented and corrected. And that’s serious.
Traffic locally in our community appears to be almost back to normal. In the earlier days of the pandemic, authorities were having trouble with speeding on our major ingress and egress street. So the removed the signal synching which allowed people during more normal times to get through the many traffic lights more reasonably.
Now, that street is totally backed up again.
Our councilman today is introducing a motion that will close some of our local downtown streets near the waterfront so all the restaurants in that area can move tables and service out into the street. This actually is something many have wanted to do for a long time but getting through all the city of LA permit hoops was nearly impossible. Now it will likely move quickly, I’ve heard of other communities doing the same thing. It might help some of the restaurants as they reopen but find they’re still under restrictions as to how many diners they can have in their establishments.
Carol was unable to use the needed app to deposit or transfer her stimulus check onto her debit card somehow. So the agreement was made to hand the check over to administrators who will pay her rent with it (early? for June I suppose?); then when she gets the funds that normally would go to that she can use that to buy the new kindle and smart watch she wanted. ? But she said something about not being able to use those items until after the pandemic is over.
Very confusing.
As for repentance, that is between the person and God, though evidence of it should be clear — but very tricky when one doesn’t personally know and interact with the person. We can only know so much, ultimately.
Canada has had no pediatric deaths yet, while having over 80,000 cases and over 5,000 deaths. Children are generally not affected – both my cousin’s children got it but both they and their mother are asymptomatic now, while their father continues to require oxygen (neither my cousin or his wife have been declared recovered because their tests keep coming back positive) – but the multisystem inflammatory syndrome that has been observed in over 350 children worldwide in connection to COVID-19 is an indicator that it is not entirely benign for children.
The dentists have to wear N95 masks, as they are dealing with people’s mouths. In the early part of the outbreak, it was noted that a significant number of those physicians who became ill and died from this were ear, nose, and throat specialists. The doctor who was punished for warning about the outbreak in Wuhan and then later got sick and died was an opthalmologist. Working close to the face of a patient seems to greatly increase the risk.
Michelle (5:56), wise? of course not. But she will do what she wants to do.
I will still speak up when she starts talking about ordering 5 pounds of candy or using her money in that kind of way (I always remind her she’s spending money on something that’ll end up in the toilet).
But at this point, her health is declining, she’s stuck in her room, she’s now unable (even without this pandemic) to really go anywhere anymore, and buying a new ‘toy’ will (briefly) give her some joy and a distraction.
She bought a $50 smart watch a few months ago because it’s all she could afford at that time — but she was unhappy with it. I urged her to return it. She didn’t. So now she’s spending more money on a better one. But there’s really nothing much anyone can say to persuade her in these things. Her brother gave her a very generous $100 gift card at Christmas for Amazon, it was spent on trifles, including a good amount of candy, in about 30 minutes. I told her then when she receives a good amount of money like that she should at least hit the *pause* button and think about what she should buy rather than just go with her initial impulse of the moment.
But anyway, it’s a pointless discussion, trust me. 🙂
Tell us how wearing a mask for your dental cleaning works out. lol
I think it is wise for obituaries to mention the flaws. After all, the Bible doesn’t exactly canonize it’s people of faith. David, Moses, and Abraham all do some really foolish things and the writers of the Bible do not hesitate to point that out . It would be wise for the church to be less protective of its modern day heroes. The Christian community, in mentioning well established concerns about Zacharias, seems to have taken caution from the case of Jean Vanier.
We are called to pray for our fellow believers. If we see them in error, we are to go quietly to them and talk. If that is sufficient, good. If not, bring a couple others along and try again. If not, put it before the body. I see nothing about talking badly about them after their death as being useful. Something wrong with the teaching? Go for it.
When do we see bad things about Paul? When he mentions them. Peter? When Jesus mentions them. The others?
Yes, people are human. Yes, brothers and sisters need to be called out. But after they are dead? What is the point. God has this.
For the record, I have once in a while heard a bit from Ravi, and I think I had a book by him or coauthored but have never really followed him at all. What I heard sounded very solid. My only dog in the fight is how do we treat the brethren?
Mumsee, you say, “My only dog in the fight is how do we treat the brethren?” Ideally, biblically. If a brother has been found to be in unrepentant sin, at some point it is more than proper to expose that sin. Now, that doesn’t mean that if I find out my brother is living with a woman, I make sure the whole world knows about it. BUT if my brother is publicly speaking about sexual purity while he is privately living in sin himself, the public nature of his speaking may very well demand public exposure.
The “go to him privately,” by the way, regards a private matter. If it has been pointed out to him that his public representation of his academic credentials is grossly misleading (and it is not a stretch to say that of RZ . . . he exaggerated in multiple categories), and he very quietly changes a few things, but only bit by bit as he has no choice in the matter, then it isn’t at all inappropriate to say his whole ministry is based on fraudulent underpinnings, he has never publicly acknowledged that, and his public “ministry” is thus in question.
We see bad things about David when Nathan mentioned them, bad things about Noah because Scripture tells us, and so forth. Believers are not “whitewashed” for us. To me the very saddest part of this whole Ravi Zacharias thing is that it could, and should, have been “worked out” during his lifetime. The board should have taken it seriously. He should have repented publicly–and probably resigned. His ministry would not be under the cloud it is under now if he had admitted, “I sinned, and there is no excuse.”
Several years ago I knew of an instance of the newspaper reporting on the private sin of someone in “ministry.” She was the director of a crisis pregnancy center (which, of course, teaches premarital sexual abstinence) . . . but she was living with her boyfriend. It only became public knowledge because her boyfriend murdered her, and then it hit the papers. Now, obviously she didn’t deserve to be murdered, but that isn’t the point. A very private sin became public with no chance to repent. In this case, Ravi and his ministry had a chance to repent and make it right–and they didn’t. That is a grievous error.
By the way, if you think the “case” against Ravi Zacharias is only speculative innuendo, read my 3:40 link and follow some of the links in it. The case was very solidly made years ago that RZ claimed multiple academic honors and circumstances that were not true. And I think the couple with whom he was said to be sexting with the wife probably did entrap him . . . but the Bible has much to say about how to respond to the woman who seeks to entrap a man sexually. What “actually happened” in that instance will probably never be clear; but that it was inappropriate is very strongly suggested by paying them off, signing a non-disclosure, and threatening suicide. RZIM did no one any favors by choosing not to look at the e-mails themselves and not holding him accountable.
The long and the short of it is he was disqualified for ministry, but NOT beyond repentance.
I am not asking for whitewashing. I am asking that we all recognize our own sin and realize that his are now between him and God. I suspect, they are not though. But I don’t know his heart, God does.
When I looked at the two sites, I did not follow them to the bitter end, but saw nothing in either that called it undealt with sin. Nor am I particularly interested in finding out. God has this. People can choose to read his books or listen to his sermons or whatever his media was or not. If there is something in his teaching that is wrong, I would be interested in hearing that.
Mumsee, yes, Zacharias was contacted concerning falsifying credentials and the other concern. These are not postmortem revelations. The credentials concern goes back decades, and the lawsuit happened and was reported about in well known publications in 2017.
Paul called Peter out publicly, and then, after the fact, wrote about how he called him out (Galatians 1). Luke wrote about Paul’s falling out with Barnabas. Paul and John both call people out by name in their epistles, people whose names we would never have known except for the Apostles’ letters, who are still used as warning examples in sermons, and who have been dead nearly 2000 years now.
Oh dear. Reading RZ ministry page clearly scopes out the usage of “doctor” and it was not of his doing. His entire educational career made up? He earned a master’s of divinity. He sued the couple, not the other way around. They clearly were out to extort the man. I won’t further defend the man but I happen to know one of his friends who is a man of integrity and an elder in our church…. he knew the man Ravi. I will say I lean on the side of grace as well. I am so relieved it is the Lord God Almighty who sees us through these times and extends to us His grace and mercy
Mumsee, let’s make a point of comparison here (Roscuro, if you’ll excuse me here). Let’s imagine that you find out that Roscuro has never spent time in nursing school. Perhaps she applied and was rejected because she had been shown to be careless in how she handled people in her care as a nurse’s aide. After being fired from three nursing homes in a row because she was do things like talking patients into stopping their medications and instead drinking a glass of vinegar every night, it was well enough known in the area that she wasn’t trustworthy that she couldn’t get another job in the field and the nursing school didn’t want her.
But on blogs she presents herself as a nurse and discusses medical questions as though she knows something about the body, medications, and medical treatment. What she said sounds convincing and it might well be true–but she isn’t who she claims to be, because she isn’t a nurse. What she says about medicine should hold no more authority than what I say on the subject.
“Having faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and have suffered the shipwreck of their faith. Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.” (I Timothy 1:19-20)
Delivering unto Satan was church discipline for unrepentant sin as prescribed in I Corinthian 5:3-5. Note, Paul does not name the man in question in I Corinthians 5, but he does name Hymenaeus and Alexander, inferring, from what he says late in I Timothy 5:19-20, that the two men were elders in the church, while the Corinthian was not.
“I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.” (3 John 9-10)
Loving to have preeminence and slandering are sin.
Nancy Jill, yes, he sued the couple and not the other way around. But apparently he then paid them money to keep them quiet, which would say they really did “have something” on him. And he really did tell the woman he would kill himself if she told her husband about them. I am not saying the couple is innocent–I don’t think they are. I think they deliberately entrapped him. But Scripture is really clear what a man is supposed to do if a woman tries to ensnare him. It’s what Joseph did with Potiphar’s wife–get out of there. Flee.
And yes, it might have been his ministry that used “Dr.” and not he himself . . . sort of. When this all came down a few years ago, one reporter mentioned calling Zacharias’s office and having the phone answered “Dr. Zacharias’s office.” Frankly, I don’t care much about the use of “Dr. Zacharias.” He does have honorary doctorates, and some people with honorary doctorates do call themselves “Dr.” But he claimed other academic honors he clearly did not have–very serious resume padding.
People listened to Ravi Zacharias because he presented himself as a philosopher whose arguments were so good that Ivy Leagues and classical English schools wanted him as a speaker and many unbelievers were being “won” by his arguments. And so we wanted to hear what he had to say. (That and he told really powerful stories.) If we didn’t quite follow an argument, that’s OK–he’s smarter and better educated than we are, and sometimes that means what he says will be over our head. But it’s good material, anyway, because he’s really smart and well educated.
But the truth is he lied about studying quantum physics under an esteemed professor, he pretended to have a bunch of doctorates but they were all honorary ones (I think we all had the impression he was very well educated, and he capitalized on that), he claimed to have been a visiting scholar at various prestigious universities when he wasn’t, his resume puts him as head of an academic department when there was no such department . . . far from being an academic heavyweight, he was simply a man who knew how to use words to captivate an audience.
I have a book on my shelf that was so powerful that after I read it I recommended it to other people, and at least one of those people bought copies to give away to other people. It was a book about honoring God, and it was excellent. I still own it, but I haven’t reread it because shortly after the author wrote it, he left his wife for another woman. I can’t bring myself to reread it because even though the book is probably just as good as when it was written, it is tainted by the author’s hypocrisy. Now, if a year after that, the author had come out and said, “I sinned against heaven and all my readers. I have been reconciled with my wife, and she has forgiven me,” I could pick up the book again.
Church discipline is not intended to attack and destroy someone–it is intended to (1) lead people to repentance or, if they refuse to repent (2) send them on their way so that they have no further negative influence on the church. Leaving a person to continue in unrepented sin does no favors to that person or to other believers. Church discipline is also supposed to teach the rest of us a holy fear. ALL of us are capable of dying with serious, unrepented sin. That should lead us to greater care. But, as my husband keeps saying, this is part of the problem with parachurch ministries. They aren’t really accountable to the church. RZIM’s board saw it as in their own best interest not to dig too deeply. They wanted to maintain the status quo. They wanted it all to go away, so they said they believed him, but they didn’t investigate. So there was no accountability, and thus no restoration.
Anyway, I have had my say. Scripture tells us to hold Christian leaders to a high standard. We don’t do a good job of doing that.
Cheryl,
There are many charlatans, which is why I prefer to get my medical information from more solid sources, like my doctor. What people do on blogs is free speech though I believe it would be illegal to claim to be a medical professional and dispense medical advice as such.
Roscuro,
Hymenaeus an Alexander sounds like a theological issue.
Personal sin addressed but sinner not named.
Diotrephes, theological again. His theology was clearly off and by naming him and warning the people, protecting the flock from theological error.
These were all living people, having their error or sin addressed.
Did Ravi have theological error? He is dead, his sins are before God or cast as far as the east is from the west, nailed to the cross, borne by the Savior.
Mumsee, I gave Scripture references that demonstrate my point about Hymenaeus and Alexander. The second (I Timothy 5:19-20) clearly states that elders who are proven to have sinned by two or three witnesses are to be publicly rebuked. Paul’s letters were read aloud to the churches.
As to Cheryl using me as an example, I briefly had to enter the non-practising class after returning from West Africa, due to a temporary change in rules with the regulating body with regards to practising it jurisdiction. After a little over a year, they again changed the rules, letting me get my license back. During the time I was non-practising (a designation created for inactive or retired nurses who had not done anything wrong), I did not identify myself on job resumes or in interviews as a nurse, even though I was still registered with the regulating body. If I had presented myself as a nurse and sought employment with that title during the time I was classified as non-practising, I would have left myself open to the gravest discipline up to and including permanently losing my license and be unable to ever work as a nurse again. I even mentioned in here at the time that I was currently non-practising so that I would not beisrepresenting myself. The rules might have seemed arbitrary and unfair, but they were the rules and I abided by them until I had an opportunity to get my full license back.
It is a very grave matter to misrepresent professional qualifications, and an elder is to be above reproach and of a good reputation with those outside the church (I Timothy 3:2,7). It was a sad and serious error in judgement to do so, and demonstrates clearly the dangers of parachurch ministry, where people who effectively function as elders to an enormous national and international audience are not held to the same standards as elders in a local church.
In fact, I directly saw the effect of his falsifying his credentials
My pastor, as he introduced RZ to the church, listed some of his supposed credentials and added, “He has many more honours, but he doesn’t like me talking about them.” The congregation chuckled its appreciation and the general impression was created of him being a modest man, too humble to trot out his qualifications, when the reality was the opposite. They were exaggerated, and he was not honest about that exaggeration.
My latest brainstorm — Carol’s birthday is coming up on June 3.
I began thinking of a distanced “window” visit with a Happy Birthday sign, a cell phone chat — then thought how fun it would be to gather some of her friends from her Downey MSL church whom she’s still personally in touch with.
I’ve connected with the one man in the church who stays in touch with her (but he has health problems of his own) to see what he thinks; we’d have to coordinate it all with her administrators, of course, but I think it would be a sweet surprise for her.
She recently asked me when I’d come visit again and I told her it’s up to her administrators and the ‘orders’ (all long-term care facilities still forbid any outside visitors).
How sad it must be to feel so trapped for so long. 😦
Mumsee, they were challenged while he was alive! I have made that point repeatedly here, that it makes me sad that his ministry did not hold him accountable while he was alive and able to make things right–by repentance or resignation, or both. So now it’s “don’t speak ill of the dead,” but we wouldn’t be having this discussion if he had repented or been forced to resign! His ministry foolishly backed him up without investigation, admitting (or conceding) not to have looked at the e-mails in question, and quietly changing academic information on the website as it was proven to be false, but never holding him to account. He was “too big to fail.” And that’s dangerous! Even the apostle Peter needed to be rebuked a time or two (by Jesus and by Paul).
God always did “have it,” and that hasn’t changed. But hopefully we can still have fruitful discussions about the right and wrong way to deal with sin in the camp.
Roscuro brought this all up on the blog several years ago, and I was inclined to defend him (as I respected him greatly), but I looked into it and found that the accusations were very well verified.
Two southern churches forced to reclose after leaders, congregants get coronavirus
BY ARIS FOLLEY – 05/19/20 07:29 PM EDT
____________________
Two churches in Georgia and Texas that reopened recently amid the novel coronavirus pandemic have since closed their doors again after churchgoers and religious leaders tested positive for the virus, according to multiple media reports.
A representative for the Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle in Ringgold, Ga., told The Christian Post in a statement on Monday that the church decided earlier this month to no longer offer “in-person worship services for the foreseeable future” after confirming some of its families were “dealing with the effects of the COVID-19 virus.”
The church said it had initially resumed in-person services weeks back as Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp began to ease coronavirus restrictions on nonessential businesses in April. At the time, the church said it had also made sure to adhere to social distancing guidelines advised to mitigate the spread of COVID-19.
“Seating was marked to only permit sitting within the six foot guidelines, all doors were open to allow access without the touching of doors, and attendees were asked to enter in a social distancing manner and were dismissed in a formal manner as well to ensure that the social distancing measures were adhered by all,” the church told the outlet.
However, the church said it ultimately decided to discontinue all in-person services last week “until further notice in an effort of extreme caution for the safety and well-being of our families.” …
_____________________
You know, I never mention a Christian theologian or author I am reading or enjoying listening to on this blog because I know someone will find fault with something they’ve said or done. I find it sad that I feel reserved to mention something that has helped me grow in my faith and Christian walk.
Wandering Views 
Good morning to you also, Chas.
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I saw you over on the prayer thread when there was not a this thread to say good morning on. Rainy here as well but I suspect it is not closely tied to any hurricanes. Though that whole if a butterfly flaps its wings thing.
Good morning the rest of you, as well.
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Very pretty flowers, by the way. I thought those were from Kizzie.
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Good morning Mumsee.
I didn’t notice what thread I was on.
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Well, I could keep talking to myself, or I could go feed the sheep before baby gets up. Guess the sheep win.
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Did I mention that Chuck gave Elvera an orchid for mother’s day?
It is live in a container.
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Aren’t those happy. Flowers are special for the very reason that they don’t last.
I know Nightingale loves you.
I have a second cousin on my mother’s side who grew up with just her mother and grandmother. Our grandmothers were sisters and lived side by side in a duplex. When we visited I always wanted to “go in at the door”. Her grandmother was much more lovable than mine and was the only person who could trick me in to napping as a child.
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Oldest son gave me an orchid years ago. It blooms a long time and then, with minimal care, puts up a new bloom or two in the coming months. One of these years, I plan to divide it as it has lots of babies. I send him a pic every time it starts to bloom.
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Sad news, yet joyous for him.
https://twitter.com/RZIMhq/status/1262720733685395456?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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Amen
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Ravi will be missed. But the Lord always has another to replace the ones he takes home.
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I hope someone got a double portion of Ravi’s spirit . . . thinking of Elijah and Elisha.
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Gorgeous roses! Beautiful for Mother’s Day. They sure make a cheerful header and I can almost smell the sweet fragrance.
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We have gone up over 38,000 cases in Georgia.
My church has a Memorial Day BBQ planned for drive up free sandwiches, chips, and cookies. I can help make cookies and help serve and be on site to pray if anyone needs prayer. I am not sure whether to go out there or not, but I can at least make some cookies.
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Good morning! We are at the track this morning. Tonight is our big transition to the new facility. We have a double crew shift, one for patient care, the other to move stuff.
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And, Janice, the roses are edible! Not sure I would eat roses when I don’t know what has been fed to them.
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Enjoyed eating a few lilac blooms while waiting for the old dog to finish his dinner yesterday.
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Ravi Zacharias came to speak at the city church one Sunday morning in 2017. I did not hear his whole message, as I had invited the Seconds to come, as I knew Second in-law was a fan, and Tiny was getting restless, so I took her partway out to let her parents listen to the rest. The church was crowded that day, with ardent Zacharias fans from surrounding communities who heard the news of his coming to our church coming to hear him in person. I remember one young couple rushing up to me in the hallway asking where Ravi was speaking, and the man saying, as they rushed by towards the sanctuary, “I’m so excited!”
Later, a couple who joined the church said the reason they started attending was they first came when Zacharias came to speak, and they decided they wanted to attend a church that had those kind of connections. The city church did have many ‘connections’, but I knew nothing of them when I started coming, because those who were ‘somebody’ in the church made nothing of it, as they had the rare humility to see that the ‘nobodies’ were just as valuable to the kingdom.
During this pandemic, I received news that one of the women I had volunteered with in a city church outreach ministry had passed away shortly after being diagnosed with lung cancer. She was a ‘nobody’, having left school to work in a factory in her teens, lived a rough life, always in poverty, cared 15 years for a husband completely debilitated by a stroke, raising her five children without his help. I loved to listen to her life stories, and they were astonishing in their scope, from being intimidated to leave her apartment by Mafia hired to clear it out by a construction company to working on an airfield in northern BC that flew cargo to the remote north, her life was full. She came to Christ later in life, and lived her widowhood in service to others, of which the outreach I joined her in was one of many. She lived on her pension, she was small and insignificant looking. But in our reminiscences of her online, since we could not gather for a memorial, the worship and arts pastor summed it up by saying he always told her, as she served in the church throughout the week, that he wanted “to be like you when I grow up.” When I think of the widow casting her mites into the temple treasury, my model is Joan.
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Of course. Beautiful in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints. All of them. Even the well known ones. God knows them all and uses them for His purposes. We rejoice when they get to go Home and we mourn that their families and friends have lost them.
I am virtually certain that, like most of the big names, he would not want people looking to him but to Him, grateful to have been His tool.
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Morning! Oh so beautiful roses up there!
Ravi was a much read and loved author in this household. He will be sadly missed…if only for a little while…..”when we all get to heaven”…..
Another hot one will be in this forest…high fire danger with the winds whipping about. 😳
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All your comments reminded me of this….
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Chas, it you get the same playlist afterwards I did, you will want to listen. Were You There When They Crucified My Lord features your favorite Carter sister
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No one scores on this cat.
https://twitter.com/chrismd10/status/1262431963371225091?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1262431963371225091&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fftw.usatoday.com%2F2020%2F05%2Fgoalie-cat
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Thanx Kim.
Like Zacharias, the final effect on the world is not what you do, but the trail you leave.
And BTW, June Carter left her own trail.
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Zacharias spoke at a Ligonier conference I attended some years ago, and I’ve read a book or two he’d written. I haven’t followed him closely, but appreciated his ministry. Was saddened and a bit surprised to read of his passing here.
Such beautiful roses, and I love the blue vase.
I was going to try to work half a day today but will nix that idea, I have the 1 p.m. Xray followed by another video conference w/the doctor — also have a prescription to pick up. Hopefully I’ll be ready to work again tomorrow. The knee is getting better, still stiff and painful to some degree (I again couldn’t find a comfortable position last night, I’m a side-sleeper but either side makes the knee throb so I’m having to sleep on my back, not the most comfortable position).
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Kim. I did not get that playlist.
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Our British-born reporter who loves cats and soccer would appreciate that video 🙂
Is the pandemic over yet?
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After sending in my complaint that the TP I ordered wasn’t what arrived, looks like they’re re-sending the original item ordered with no request to return the smaller package. We’ll see, they sent me a new tracking number for something arriving tomorrow.
Or maybe it’s just a package of rolls that will make up for the missing ones in the original shipment.
All automated replies pretty much, so I wonder if this happened with quite a few folks who ordered the 20-roll pack but only received the 12.
***Good Santa.
***Depending on what arrives.
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RZIM is located a little north of where we live. I never saw Ravi in person but use to listen to him on Sunday mornings before church. He seemed to be a really fine person who could reach people with the gospel in ways others did not. At one point I heard that his daughter attended Covenant College near the time Wesley was there. Also, one of Ravi’s coworkers who made video presentations with Ravi had been a college roommate of one of our church mrmbers at an Ivy League school, maybe Princeton? I think with Ravi’s Indian background that he would have been extremely conscious of class differences. I never heard anything to indicate that he considered himself to be on a higher level than others although his intellect could have made him appear that way. He always seemed quite humble from my perspective.
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Interesting piece from World:
https://world.wng.org/2020/05/the_coronavirus_data_debate
_______________________
~ Two months into California’s shelter-in-place order, locals are restless. As spring fever takes hold, people are pouring onto the beaches in large numbers and protesting Gov. Gavin Newsom’s continued restrictions. Grocery stores once full of mask-covered shoppers scanning for toilet paper and pasta now have a more relaxed vibe: In early May, less than half of the shoppers in a San Clemente grocery store were wearing masks, even as an employee announced over the intercom that face coverings were required.
Shutdowns are taking their toll, creating economic hardship, lost educational hours, and mental health problems. Increasingly, people are searching for another way and pointing to a country roughly the same size as California taking a radically different approach to the virus: Sweden. The Scandinavian country has boldly condemned lockdowns since day one, and images of joyful Swedes gathering in restaurants and appearing to live as usual taunt those across the Atlantic feeling the brunt of the economic shutdown.
Multiple theories have emerged, each staking claims on the million (or multi-trillion) dollar question: How do we open struggling businesses while preventing new outbreaks that could cripple healthcare systems? Some medical professionals say the data support the Swedish model, while others urge caution, claiming Sweden’s numbers are alarming. Other countries have implemented measures which probably won’t work in the U.S. But the debate isn’t just about achieving the optimal level of social distancing. What scientists believe about fatality rates and immunity affects their views on Sweden’s approach and the policies they embrace for jumpstarting the U.S. economy. … ~
________________________________
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As the article goes on to point out, Sweden has quite a low population density, being about twice the size of California, with half the population. Also, Sweden did place restrictions, banning gatherings of over 50 people. Sweden’s caseload is at just over 30,000 with just over 3,700 deaths – that is over a ten percent mortality rate of known cases. Besides, I think the original purpose of the closures has been lost sight of, which was to prevent the healthcare system from being overloaded. New York got very close to being overwhelmed, as it shutdown rather late in its outbreak, which went unnoticed for a while. The shutdowns were successful in preventing that, but as was pointed out at the time, if the shutdowns were successful, it would be said we overreacted. There was one way in which every Western country did suffer a complete breakdown in healthcare due to this, and that was in long term care, and Sweden was not exempt as the article relates. I appreciate World’s attempt to tell both viewpoints, but I have to say the person who argued against the social distancing measures taken does not inspire confidence. People who talk carelessly about willingly injecting themselves with diseases do not come across as trustworthy on health and safety matters.
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Sweden is struggling with the apparent dismissal of their older people.
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Funny cat video.
I found an old copy of The Grapes of Wrath, a book which I’ve never read. I’m to the part where the Joads finally arrive at the valley. I have to wonder how many current residents of the Bakersfield area are descendants of the Okies. How many elderly men and women were among those who crossed the Mojave at night in their beat up jalopies. It’s sad that the Californians treated them badly. Perhaps they didn’t realize that their ancestors were the “Okies” of the 1850s who arrived to seek their fortunes in gold. Were they treated harshly by the Mexican and Native Americans who inhabited the land before them?
It’s human nature to resist outsiders, yet most of us born in the US are descended from people who came from elsewhere.
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My parents had a copy of The Grapes of Wrath. I tried reading it as a teen, but found it too grim. I have seen the 1940 film adaption by the great American director, John Ford. Canadians experienced a similar uprooting and migration in the Depression era. My maternal grandmother came at three from England with her family and she later wrote to me and Youngest stories of how they went from community to community looking for work. Her father had been wounded and taken as a POW in the Great War, and had been rehabilitated as a watchmaker, a trade difficult to establish in Depression era Canada. She was in her teens before they finally settled in one place.
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Roscuro and Peter, I did manage to get through the Grapes of Wrath–once. I like a lot of Steinbeck, but that one is indeed “too grim.” If I recall correctly, the movie ends on a hopeful note when things might be getting better, but the book only pauses briefly at what turns out to be false hope and then really digs in the screws. But it has been many years since I’ve read it, and my reading the book and watching the movie were years apart, so I may be in error.
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When I went to the mailbox, I found ant hive in it. I am sympathizing with Michelle.
For some years I have been battling an earwig colony in the mailbox. Lately I had seen some smallish ants in there when I got the mail. Thank goodness I had on my gardening gloves when I first wiped over the bit of clay dirt in the box. It really stirred them up. I got a trowel to scrape it out and saw what looked to be hundreds of eggs. I had to use another approach. I found a new container of Kaboom, a bathroom foaming cleaner which I had bought when almost every other product had been sold out. I used it to spray the inside and let it stay a few moments before wiping down with a paper towel. In the meantime, I saw the kitchen door was wide open and Miss Bosley was in the carport. She knew she had misbehaved by escaping so she hung down her head and scooted back inside. She is trying to catch fleas again!
I hear the mail truck at my mailbox. Curious how it is just sitting there. Hmm . . . I hope Kaboom was not a steroid for the ants. I am so thankful that I got it cleaned up before the mail got shoved into that ant nursery.
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Husband is up in the pines cutting out dead and cracked branches. I love that he is extra cautious with his climbing gear and anchors. We did have a disconcerting discovery though. We took photos and sent them off to our forestry guy. Looks as though we may have fresh beetle hits on a tall pine out back…chopping it down and getting it out of here post-haste… may be happening tomorrow. 😳
While husband was hiking the Peak yesterday he came upon three 20 somethings hiking as well. They had on masks! He stopped and asked them what they were thinking wearing masks at almost 14,000 elevation and no one was around! The girl was extremely frightened staying way over in the woods away from him but the two young men said they may be asymptomatic and they wouldn’t want to infect anyone. Husband said he was not concerned and he would be the one they say would be most vulnerable being in his mid 60’s.
We were discussing the church in China which continues to meet in secret even knowing the risks of arrest or even worse. We had a great discussion over our coffee this morning.. 😊
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I wonder if the unrelenting ending had something to do with the fact that at the time it was written the Depression was not history to Steinbeck, it was ongoing. Looking back at my own family’s experience of the same event, I know there was hope. My grandfather was able to establish a watchmaker’s shop, and my mother and her siblings occasionally helped out in it in their teens. There were other sorrows as my grandmother lost her older brother, to whom she was closest in age and friendship, when he was killed in Italy in World War II – last Remembrance Day, the Canadian government released all their records in digital form of those who had died in both world wars, and through it we found a letter, written by my great grandfather to the military during the time my great uncle was missing in action, that captures something of the agony they went through. But the Depression that marked so much of the beginning of my grandmother’s life had long been gone when she died in the early 2000s, while her legacy of faith and family keeps growing, with her first great grandchild now having his first child and her Youngest grandchild having a fifth child in these past few months.
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Here is a balanced obituary on Ravi Zacharias. I have read many of his books, heard him in person several times, and contributed to his ministry. But I don’t think he “ended well” and do think there is call for caution. https://ministrywatch.com/ravi-zacharias-dead-at-74/
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Cheryl, the World obituary is similarly measured: https://world.wng.org/2020/05/ravi_zacharias_dies_at_74
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Ah but I believe Ravi did finish well. Yes he found himself stuck in the muck of human frailties and we were hugely disappointed when the trap was set for him in reference to the couple he met. In that matter I believe he lacked wisdom and accountability measures for which he found regret. And the doctorate usage was unfortunate as well. Yet… The Lord says, “Now, let’s settle the matter. You are stained red with sin, but I will wash you as clean as snow. Although your stains are deep red, you will be as white as wool. ❤️
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I’ll take ants in the mailbox over wet carpet in the living room any time.
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Roscuro, I saw the World one too–thank you. But so far there are four comments on World’s obit, and all four of them are angry that they dared include a paragraph that suggests (mildly) that he made some errors in judgment. I think the obit is really too short, and doesn’t mention (as readers have commented) that he wrote books, and really skims over the controversy.
To me it is sad that he died without really “making it right” and thus died with a stained legacy. Had he been honest–and humble–it would have been helpful. David was a sinner, too, but his repentance was genuine, and thus God still used him. I think ultimately it wasn’t in the board’s “best interest” to really get to the bottom of all of it, and thus it was left unresolved and apparently (at least publicly) unrepented . . . which is really a tragedy.
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What NancyJill said.
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I’ve got a FB Live going on right now, giving a Coast Guard friend of ours a Legion of Merit award. Wonderful I could see this terrific guy receive his second!
And, they made special note of how devoted he is to his church, his family and musical theater (his high school senior daughter is an actress). Nice job, Captain Fosse!
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Here’s what I find most interesting about Sweden’s methods…..
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If it’s the same cat as a goalie video my brother posted on FB (it won’t display on my screen), I sent it on to my nephew, the goalie coach for the Portland Timbers2. 🙂
(Though, the poor guy has been reduced to home schooling his daughters and training them. I did see a video of him making them do pushups. They’re five and three.)
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I’ve been out, traveling all the way to Rohnert Park again to social distance walk with Hillary–who is desperately trying to figure out how to get back to Italy.
Gorgeous day, just splendid, and a lot more cars on the road.
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I haven’t “kept up” with Zacharias so really don’t know what the incident was about, I’ll have to read the obits to see.
Grapes of Wrath was grim, but I haven’t read it since high school. Saw the movie as well.
X-Ray done, results will take a few days. But I forgot to get the measles vaccine while I was there, doctor had said we could do that at the same time.
I do think when this virus comes around again — as it likely will before a vaccine is available — we’ll be wiser, calmer, better informed and will perhaps do things regarding the closures and the economy a bit differently.
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For him to have been such a prominent person, I am amazed that was all that could be said in the negative about him. I choose to not dwell on the negative but to feel the joy of remembering his voice explain things in a way people needed to hear God’s message, the peace he related when he told of being at the point of suicide and how Christ rescued him, the love he expressed for people worldwide, and the hope of heaven where surely he is because it was evident that his life was truly dedicated to Jesus and making Him known.
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My husband has made a statement a couple of times lately (it’s relevant in the RZ case, but that wasn’t what we were discussing at the time): (1) American Christians seem very quick to criticize political leaders, which Scripture doesn’t do and doesn’t encourage us doing. (We are told to honor and to submit, not to question and criticize . . . and no, that doesn’t mean there is never a place for criticism, but it needs to be done in that framework of honor and submission.) (2) American Christians are very, very hesitant to criticize religious leaders, even those who are very clearly wolves, which Scripture actually commands.
BTW, I am not saying Ravi Zacharias was a “wolf.” Honestly I have no idea. But when serious, systemic error was brought to light–and thoroughly documented–it was never dealt with. I was a very, very serious RZ supporter. I heard him in person four to six times, got in line to shake his hand, donated money to his ministry several times, read half a dozen of his books. One of the biggest disappointments of my professional career was that an RZ book was given to a colleague to edit and not to me–and we ended up not publishing the book, since my colleague flubbed the edit and lost us the contract on the book. So when I say that I’m no longer a supporter, and that I believe he died with unresolved scandal, I don’t say it with any glee and I don’t say it as someone who never liked him anyway. I say it as someone who greatly respected him for decades, who prayed that he would make this right, and who is heartily sad that he did not. But he basically “made up” his entire academic career, besides whatever did or didn’t happen with the woman (paying her off and signing a non-disclosure statement, and threatening suicide if she told her husband–none of that makes him look good) . . . and it’s serious enough to call his entire life into question. The lies go back decades, and while some of them ceased to be told after they were pointed out, they were never repented and corrected. And that’s serious.
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Traffic locally in our community appears to be almost back to normal. In the earlier days of the pandemic, authorities were having trouble with speeding on our major ingress and egress street. So the removed the signal synching which allowed people during more normal times to get through the many traffic lights more reasonably.
Now, that street is totally backed up again.
Our councilman today is introducing a motion that will close some of our local downtown streets near the waterfront so all the restaurants in that area can move tables and service out into the street. This actually is something many have wanted to do for a long time but getting through all the city of LA permit hoops was nearly impossible. Now it will likely move quickly, I’ve heard of other communities doing the same thing. It might help some of the restaurants as they reopen but find they’re still under restrictions as to how many diners they can have in their establishments.
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Amen, Janice.
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Carol was unable to use the needed app to deposit or transfer her stimulus check onto her debit card somehow. So the agreement was made to hand the check over to administrators who will pay her rent with it (early? for June I suppose?); then when she gets the funds that normally would go to that she can use that to buy the new kindle and smart watch she wanted. ? But she said something about not being able to use those items until after the pandemic is over.
Very confusing.
As for repentance, that is between the person and God, though evidence of it should be clear — but very tricky when one doesn’t personally know and interact with the person. We can only know so much, ultimately.
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I’d tend to err on the side of grace in that situation, God has judged and we are not privy to that on this side.
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The dentist just called. My cleaning is on for next Tuesday. Amazing.
She asked me about eight questions about my health. I’m to wear a mask (!) and bring my own pen to sign something.
I guess we’re back to normal.
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Is a smart watch wise?
I suppose that’s a rhetorical question.
I mean, how far can she go from her phone?
Sorry. Budget counselor here . . . .
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Canada has had no pediatric deaths yet, while having over 80,000 cases and over 5,000 deaths. Children are generally not affected – both my cousin’s children got it but both they and their mother are asymptomatic now, while their father continues to require oxygen (neither my cousin or his wife have been declared recovered because their tests keep coming back positive) – but the multisystem inflammatory syndrome that has been observed in over 350 children worldwide in connection to COVID-19 is an indicator that it is not entirely benign for children.
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The dentists have to wear N95 masks, as they are dealing with people’s mouths. In the early part of the outbreak, it was noted that a significant number of those physicians who became ill and died from this were ear, nose, and throat specialists. The doctor who was punished for warning about the outbreak in Wuhan and then later got sick and died was an opthalmologist. Working close to the face of a patient seems to greatly increase the risk.
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Michelle (5:56), wise? of course not. But she will do what she wants to do.
I will still speak up when she starts talking about ordering 5 pounds of candy or using her money in that kind of way (I always remind her she’s spending money on something that’ll end up in the toilet).
But at this point, her health is declining, she’s stuck in her room, she’s now unable (even without this pandemic) to really go anywhere anymore, and buying a new ‘toy’ will (briefly) give her some joy and a distraction.
She bought a $50 smart watch a few months ago because it’s all she could afford at that time — but she was unhappy with it. I urged her to return it. She didn’t. So now she’s spending more money on a better one. But there’s really nothing much anyone can say to persuade her in these things. Her brother gave her a very generous $100 gift card at Christmas for Amazon, it was spent on trifles, including a good amount of candy, in about 30 minutes. I told her then when she receives a good amount of money like that she should at least hit the *pause* button and think about what she should buy rather than just go with her initial impulse of the moment.
But anyway, it’s a pointless discussion, trust me. 🙂
Tell us how wearing a mask for your dental cleaning works out. lol
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I think it is wise for obituaries to mention the flaws. After all, the Bible doesn’t exactly canonize it’s people of faith. David, Moses, and Abraham all do some really foolish things and the writers of the Bible do not hesitate to point that out . It would be wise for the church to be less protective of its modern day heroes. The Christian community, in mentioning well established concerns about Zacharias, seems to have taken caution from the case of Jean Vanier.
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Did the Christians, discussing the flaws post mortem, approach the brother during life and address those questions? A letter would suffice.
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We are called to pray for our fellow believers. If we see them in error, we are to go quietly to them and talk. If that is sufficient, good. If not, bring a couple others along and try again. If not, put it before the body. I see nothing about talking badly about them after their death as being useful. Something wrong with the teaching? Go for it.
When do we see bad things about Paul? When he mentions them. Peter? When Jesus mentions them. The others?
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Yes, people are human. Yes, brothers and sisters need to be called out. But after they are dead? What is the point. God has this.
For the record, I have once in a while heard a bit from Ravi, and I think I had a book by him or coauthored but have never really followed him at all. What I heard sounded very solid. My only dog in the fight is how do we treat the brethren?
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Mumsee, you say, “My only dog in the fight is how do we treat the brethren?” Ideally, biblically. If a brother has been found to be in unrepentant sin, at some point it is more than proper to expose that sin. Now, that doesn’t mean that if I find out my brother is living with a woman, I make sure the whole world knows about it. BUT if my brother is publicly speaking about sexual purity while he is privately living in sin himself, the public nature of his speaking may very well demand public exposure.
The “go to him privately,” by the way, regards a private matter. If it has been pointed out to him that his public representation of his academic credentials is grossly misleading (and it is not a stretch to say that of RZ . . . he exaggerated in multiple categories), and he very quietly changes a few things, but only bit by bit as he has no choice in the matter, then it isn’t at all inappropriate to say his whole ministry is based on fraudulent underpinnings, he has never publicly acknowledged that, and his public “ministry” is thus in question.
We see bad things about David when Nathan mentioned them, bad things about Noah because Scripture tells us, and so forth. Believers are not “whitewashed” for us. To me the very saddest part of this whole Ravi Zacharias thing is that it could, and should, have been “worked out” during his lifetime. The board should have taken it seriously. He should have repented publicly–and probably resigned. His ministry would not be under the cloud it is under now if he had admitted, “I sinned, and there is no excuse.”
Several years ago I knew of an instance of the newspaper reporting on the private sin of someone in “ministry.” She was the director of a crisis pregnancy center (which, of course, teaches premarital sexual abstinence) . . . but she was living with her boyfriend. It only became public knowledge because her boyfriend murdered her, and then it hit the papers. Now, obviously she didn’t deserve to be murdered, but that isn’t the point. A very private sin became public with no chance to repent. In this case, Ravi and his ministry had a chance to repent and make it right–and they didn’t. That is a grievous error.
By the way, if you think the “case” against Ravi Zacharias is only speculative innuendo, read my 3:40 link and follow some of the links in it. The case was very solidly made years ago that RZ claimed multiple academic honors and circumstances that were not true. And I think the couple with whom he was said to be sexting with the wife probably did entrap him . . . but the Bible has much to say about how to respond to the woman who seeks to entrap a man sexually. What “actually happened” in that instance will probably never be clear; but that it was inappropriate is very strongly suggested by paying them off, signing a non-disclosure, and threatening suicide. RZIM did no one any favors by choosing not to look at the e-mails themselves and not holding him accountable.
The long and the short of it is he was disqualified for ministry, but NOT beyond repentance.
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I am not asking for whitewashing. I am asking that we all recognize our own sin and realize that his are now between him and God. I suspect, they are not though. But I don’t know his heart, God does.
When I looked at the two sites, I did not follow them to the bitter end, but saw nothing in either that called it undealt with sin. Nor am I particularly interested in finding out. God has this. People can choose to read his books or listen to his sermons or whatever his media was or not. If there is something in his teaching that is wrong, I would be interested in hearing that.
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Mumsee, yes, Zacharias was contacted concerning falsifying credentials and the other concern. These are not postmortem revelations. The credentials concern goes back decades, and the lawsuit happened and was reported about in well known publications in 2017.
Paul called Peter out publicly, and then, after the fact, wrote about how he called him out (Galatians 1). Luke wrote about Paul’s falling out with Barnabas. Paul and John both call people out by name in their epistles, people whose names we would never have known except for the Apostles’ letters, who are still used as warning examples in sermons, and who have been dead nearly 2000 years now.
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Were they called out for sin in their lives or for teaching? Well, Ananias and Sapphira but that was pretty clear Who was calling them out.
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Oh dear. Reading RZ ministry page clearly scopes out the usage of “doctor” and it was not of his doing. His entire educational career made up? He earned a master’s of divinity. He sued the couple, not the other way around. They clearly were out to extort the man. I won’t further defend the man but I happen to know one of his friends who is a man of integrity and an elder in our church…. he knew the man Ravi. I will say I lean on the side of grace as well. I am so relieved it is the Lord God Almighty who sees us through these times and extends to us His grace and mercy
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Here is another write up about Ravi which does mention the difficulties Cheryl and Roscuro are focused on. This does mention his.books.
http://www.bpnews.net/54820/ravi-zacharias-renowned-apologist-dies-at-74
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Mumsee, let’s make a point of comparison here (Roscuro, if you’ll excuse me here). Let’s imagine that you find out that Roscuro has never spent time in nursing school. Perhaps she applied and was rejected because she had been shown to be careless in how she handled people in her care as a nurse’s aide. After being fired from three nursing homes in a row because she was do things like talking patients into stopping their medications and instead drinking a glass of vinegar every night, it was well enough known in the area that she wasn’t trustworthy that she couldn’t get another job in the field and the nursing school didn’t want her.
But on blogs she presents herself as a nurse and discusses medical questions as though she knows something about the body, medications, and medical treatment. What she said sounds convincing and it might well be true–but she isn’t who she claims to be, because she isn’t a nurse. What she says about medicine should hold no more authority than what I say on the subject.
Would that bother you?
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“Having faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and have suffered the shipwreck of their faith. Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.” (I Timothy 1:19-20)
Delivering unto Satan was church discipline for unrepentant sin as prescribed in I Corinthian 5:3-5. Note, Paul does not name the man in question in I Corinthians 5, but he does name Hymenaeus and Alexander, inferring, from what he says late in I Timothy 5:19-20, that the two men were elders in the church, while the Corinthian was not.
“I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.” (3 John 9-10)
Loving to have preeminence and slandering are sin.
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Nancy Jill, yes, he sued the couple and not the other way around. But apparently he then paid them money to keep them quiet, which would say they really did “have something” on him. And he really did tell the woman he would kill himself if she told her husband about them. I am not saying the couple is innocent–I don’t think they are. I think they deliberately entrapped him. But Scripture is really clear what a man is supposed to do if a woman tries to ensnare him. It’s what Joseph did with Potiphar’s wife–get out of there. Flee.
And yes, it might have been his ministry that used “Dr.” and not he himself . . . sort of. When this all came down a few years ago, one reporter mentioned calling Zacharias’s office and having the phone answered “Dr. Zacharias’s office.” Frankly, I don’t care much about the use of “Dr. Zacharias.” He does have honorary doctorates, and some people with honorary doctorates do call themselves “Dr.” But he claimed other academic honors he clearly did not have–very serious resume padding.
People listened to Ravi Zacharias because he presented himself as a philosopher whose arguments were so good that Ivy Leagues and classical English schools wanted him as a speaker and many unbelievers were being “won” by his arguments. And so we wanted to hear what he had to say. (That and he told really powerful stories.) If we didn’t quite follow an argument, that’s OK–he’s smarter and better educated than we are, and sometimes that means what he says will be over our head. But it’s good material, anyway, because he’s really smart and well educated.
But the truth is he lied about studying quantum physics under an esteemed professor, he pretended to have a bunch of doctorates but they were all honorary ones (I think we all had the impression he was very well educated, and he capitalized on that), he claimed to have been a visiting scholar at various prestigious universities when he wasn’t, his resume puts him as head of an academic department when there was no such department . . . far from being an academic heavyweight, he was simply a man who knew how to use words to captivate an audience.
I have a book on my shelf that was so powerful that after I read it I recommended it to other people, and at least one of those people bought copies to give away to other people. It was a book about honoring God, and it was excellent. I still own it, but I haven’t reread it because shortly after the author wrote it, he left his wife for another woman. I can’t bring myself to reread it because even though the book is probably just as good as when it was written, it is tainted by the author’s hypocrisy. Now, if a year after that, the author had come out and said, “I sinned against heaven and all my readers. I have been reconciled with my wife, and she has forgiven me,” I could pick up the book again.
Church discipline is not intended to attack and destroy someone–it is intended to (1) lead people to repentance or, if they refuse to repent (2) send them on their way so that they have no further negative influence on the church. Leaving a person to continue in unrepented sin does no favors to that person or to other believers. Church discipline is also supposed to teach the rest of us a holy fear. ALL of us are capable of dying with serious, unrepented sin. That should lead us to greater care. But, as my husband keeps saying, this is part of the problem with parachurch ministries. They aren’t really accountable to the church. RZIM’s board saw it as in their own best interest not to dig too deeply. They wanted to maintain the status quo. They wanted it all to go away, so they said they believed him, but they didn’t investigate. So there was no accountability, and thus no restoration.
Anyway, I have had my say. Scripture tells us to hold Christian leaders to a high standard. We don’t do a good job of doing that.
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Cheryl,
There are many charlatans, which is why I prefer to get my medical information from more solid sources, like my doctor. What people do on blogs is free speech though I believe it would be illegal to claim to be a medical professional and dispense medical advice as such.
Roscuro,
Hymenaeus an Alexander sounds like a theological issue.
Personal sin addressed but sinner not named.
Diotrephes, theological again. His theology was clearly off and by naming him and warning the people, protecting the flock from theological error.
These were all living people, having their error or sin addressed.
Did Ravi have theological error? He is dead, his sins are before God or cast as far as the east is from the west, nailed to the cross, borne by the Savior.
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Cheryl, and to pray for them so they don’t fall into sin.
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Mumsee, I gave Scripture references that demonstrate my point about Hymenaeus and Alexander. The second (I Timothy 5:19-20) clearly states that elders who are proven to have sinned by two or three witnesses are to be publicly rebuked. Paul’s letters were read aloud to the churches.
As to Cheryl using me as an example, I briefly had to enter the non-practising class after returning from West Africa, due to a temporary change in rules with the regulating body with regards to practising it jurisdiction. After a little over a year, they again changed the rules, letting me get my license back. During the time I was non-practising (a designation created for inactive or retired nurses who had not done anything wrong), I did not identify myself on job resumes or in interviews as a nurse, even though I was still registered with the regulating body. If I had presented myself as a nurse and sought employment with that title during the time I was classified as non-practising, I would have left myself open to the gravest discipline up to and including permanently losing my license and be unable to ever work as a nurse again. I even mentioned in here at the time that I was currently non-practising so that I would not beisrepresenting myself. The rules might have seemed arbitrary and unfair, but they were the rules and I abided by them until I had an opportunity to get my full license back.
It is a very grave matter to misrepresent professional qualifications, and an elder is to be above reproach and of a good reputation with those outside the church (I Timothy 3:2,7). It was a sad and serious error in judgement to do so, and demonstrates clearly the dangers of parachurch ministry, where people who effectively function as elders to an enormous national and international audience are not held to the same standards as elders in a local church.
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In fact, I directly saw the effect of his falsifying his credentials
My pastor, as he introduced RZ to the church, listed some of his supposed credentials and added, “He has many more honours, but he doesn’t like me talking about them.” The congregation chuckled its appreciation and the general impression was created of him being a modest man, too humble to trot out his qualifications, when the reality was the opposite. They were exaggerated, and he was not honest about that exaggeration.
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It still seems these would be more beneficial if he was alive and they could be challenged in person. Now, God has it and I am glad I am not God.
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My latest brainstorm — Carol’s birthday is coming up on June 3.
I began thinking of a distanced “window” visit with a Happy Birthday sign, a cell phone chat — then thought how fun it would be to gather some of her friends from her Downey MSL church whom she’s still personally in touch with.
I’ve connected with the one man in the church who stays in touch with her (but he has health problems of his own) to see what he thinks; we’d have to coordinate it all with her administrators, of course, but I think it would be a sweet surprise for her.
She recently asked me when I’d come visit again and I told her it’s up to her administrators and the ‘orders’ (all long-term care facilities still forbid any outside visitors).
How sad it must be to feel so trapped for so long. 😦
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Mumsee, they were challenged while he was alive! I have made that point repeatedly here, that it makes me sad that his ministry did not hold him accountable while he was alive and able to make things right–by repentance or resignation, or both. So now it’s “don’t speak ill of the dead,” but we wouldn’t be having this discussion if he had repented or been forced to resign! His ministry foolishly backed him up without investigation, admitting (or conceding) not to have looked at the e-mails in question, and quietly changing academic information on the website as it was proven to be false, but never holding him to account. He was “too big to fail.” And that’s dangerous! Even the apostle Peter needed to be rebuked a time or two (by Jesus and by Paul).
God always did “have it,” and that hasn’t changed. But hopefully we can still have fruitful discussions about the right and wrong way to deal with sin in the camp.
Roscuro brought this all up on the blog several years ago, and I was inclined to defend him (as I respected him greatly), but I looked into it and found that the accusations were very well verified.
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https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/498643-two-southern-churches-forced-to-reclose-after-leaders-and
Two southern churches forced to reclose after leaders, congregants get coronavirus
BY ARIS FOLLEY – 05/19/20 07:29 PM EDT
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Two churches in Georgia and Texas that reopened recently amid the novel coronavirus pandemic have since closed their doors again after churchgoers and religious leaders tested positive for the virus, according to multiple media reports.
A representative for the Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle in Ringgold, Ga., told The Christian Post in a statement on Monday that the church decided earlier this month to no longer offer “in-person worship services for the foreseeable future” after confirming some of its families were “dealing with the effects of the COVID-19 virus.”
The church said it had initially resumed in-person services weeks back as Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp began to ease coronavirus restrictions on nonessential businesses in April. At the time, the church said it had also made sure to adhere to social distancing guidelines advised to mitigate the spread of COVID-19.
“Seating was marked to only permit sitting within the six foot guidelines, all doors were open to allow access without the touching of doors, and attendees were asked to enter in a social distancing manner and were dismissed in a formal manner as well to ensure that the social distancing measures were adhered by all,” the church told the outlet.
However, the church said it ultimately decided to discontinue all in-person services last week “until further notice in an effort of extreme caution for the safety and well-being of our families.” …
_____________________
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You know, I never mention a Christian theologian or author I am reading or enjoying listening to on this blog because I know someone will find fault with something they’ve said or done. I find it sad that I feel reserved to mention something that has helped me grow in my faith and Christian walk.
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I suspect we miss out on a lot. God has many servants and we have much to learn.
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