Dreher covers a lot of ground in this article. His most important point is that the souls of young Evangelicals are under attack. The comment at the end from a reader is chilling.
It is particularly important that each of us remain true to the moral positions we have always held and not try to defend the indefensible or excuse outright lies. The young people are watching us.
From the article:
I heard from a conservative Evangelical friend today, a Millennial, who told me that his generation is “in meltdown” over what they consider to be the moral collapse of Evangelicals, who have chosen political power and access over upholding Biblical standards. Stephen Mansfield, author of a new book about Trump and Christian conservatives, recently told NPR that the Evangelical churches are facing a generational crisis:
In the end, the word that is used most often when I talk to the young is “hypocrisy.” They sat in their churches, and they heard certain conduct described as wrong. Yet when Donald Trump did it, or when it was reported on a video, we heard kind of a “boys will be boys” sort of response even from very, very prominent religious leaders. They began to wonder if the message they had been hearing all those years in church was consistent with the people they had respected.
It’s really thrown a lot of them into real turmoil, and I think as a result we’re going to see the number of “religious nones” increase, because many of them will continue to be religious, continue to be believers in God. But they are losing confidence in the church they were once part of, and in some cases, that’s a direct result of what happened in that election.
I have heard the same thing. Though I’m not an Evangelical, I would rather a thousand times that the Evangelical churches be theologically and morally strong than that the Republican Party hold the White House and Congress. What’s going to happen is that the GOP will eventually lose both — in the normal cycle of things, sure, but especially given how Trump’s malice and incompetence has fired up opposition — and the conservative Evangelical churches will see the true cost of the deal they have made with this particular devil.
That’s the cost to the church. There is also a cost to constitutional and cultural norms of politics and the presidency. I did not appreciate last year, when Trump was running, how great this cost was going to be. In his thin but important book On Tyranny, Twenty Lessons From the Twentieth Century, historian Timothy Snyder writes, “You submit to tyranny when you renounce the difference between what you want to hear and what is actually the case.” He continues by saying that this begins through
open hostility to verifiable reality, which takes the form of presenting inventions and lies as if they were facts. The president does this at a high rate and at a fast pace. One attempt during the 2016 campaign to track his utterances found that 78 percent of his factual claims were false. This proportion is so high that it makes the correct assertions seem like unintended oversights on the path toward total fiction. Demeaning the world as it is begins the creation of a fictional counterworld.
@6:00 Dreher has a point. Christians who are leaders ought not condone known wrong-doing (such as Trump’s lewd speech caught on tape)—and many, like Mike Huckabee, Mike Pence, and Ben Carson don’t.
However, politically sensitive scandals are often too ‘convenient’ to be fully credible; and their timing does not allow sufficient time for many voters to comfortably work them into their voting calculus. So we usually go with what we are confident we know. Of course, what we think we know can be mistaken, and often is, in the political context. That is a normal part of being human. We educate ourselves as best we can, and carry on.
To address the broader picture, Evangelical leaders have identified too closely with their politicians—and they have done this to corral voters for the Republican party. I think most people are accustomed to hearing exaggerations or lies from politicians—even the ones they are encouraged to support.
Poorer or struggling Evangelicals who are accustomed to hearing themselves falsely described as lazy, irrelevant, ignorant or Deplorable are not so shocked to think that politicians lie, exaggerate or prove unfaithful to promises made to get their votes during an election. But it has always been discouraging to hear your religious leaders support the people who do this, and by extension, their corrupt policies that have brought much job insecurity and promoted family instability.
I would suggest that the Christian young who are shocked by our current political climate can use this occasion as a valuable opportunity to look at the world another way—to consider that not every Christian’s experience with the past 40 or so years of Republican policies are the same as their own or their parents’. And if the leaders of ‘the shocked’ want to strengthen the faith of the young, they should be teaching them resiliency and endurance instead of vilifying Trump supporters.
This is a very long, but excellent article in The American Conservative on free trade…or rather, the lack of free trade.
….. Unbeknownst to most Americans, lobbyists for America’s major trading partners have for generations assiduously calmed the American establishment’s fears about trade. These foreign lobbyists have proved amazingly successful in promoting three myths:
• Myth 1. America’s major trading partners are in principle sincerely committed to free trade and are doing their best to open their markets to U.S. exports.
• Myth 2. In an era of global economics, trade deficits—even the huge ones the United States has been incurring—no longer matter.
• Myth 3. America is leading the way in a new post-industrial era and no longer needs manufacturing.
These propositions—and several more emanating from the same self-serving sources—are so obviously false that we have to wonder how they came to be accepted in the first place. And yet the media have almost entirely ignored the worsening trade deficits. Eventually this performance will be remembered as a great lapse in American journalism….
….. Trade is a crucial concern for any nation. The most obvious reason, though not the only one, is jobs. While many nations have seen a decline in manufacturing jobs over the years, the U.S. contraction has been little short of catastrophic. More than 5 million manufacturing jobs have been lost since 2000. While many displaced workers no doubt have found work in services, they can rarely match their previous wage levels. That’s because jobs at the advanced end of manufacturing—the end the United States once dominated—are generally capital-intensive, which means output per head is generally high and, with rising productivity, employers have plenty of room to increase wages.
But another obvious concern is that trade deficits have to be financed. Broadly speaking, for every $1 of current-account deficit the United States incurs, it has to sell $1 of American assets to foreign investors. Much of the financing comes in the form of foreigners’ purchases of American stocks and real estate. Foreign governments also help by increasing their holdings of U.S. Treasury bonds.
Indeed foreign asset purchases are becoming an increasingly intrusive feature of the American economic landscape. Foreigners have acquired many of America’s largest corporations, including Amoco, Chrysler, Monsanto, Firestone, Anheuser-Busch, Motorola, and the Reynolds tobacco empire. In 2002, Lucent, heir to the fabled technological riches of Bell Labs, sold its optical-fiber business to Furukawa of Japan. Meanwhile, IBM sold its historic disk-drive business to Hitachi and its PC business to Lenovo of China.
Major pillars of Wall Street also have come under foreign ownership, including First Boston, Bankers Trust, Scudder Investments, PaineWebber, Alliance Capital, Republic Bank, Kemper Corporation, Alex Brown, and Dillon, Read.
Then there is U.S. book publishing. Such famous publishers as Random House, St. Martin’s Press, Doubleday, and Farrar, Straus & Giroux are all owned by German corporations. So is Crown, publisher of Barack Obama’s two autobiographical books, Dreams from My Father and The Audacity of Hope.
In effect, the United States has been selling the family silver. Within a single generation, it has disposed of much of its industrial and commercial base—a base that took the determination and energy of countless earlier generations to build. Increasingly, the U.S. economy is becoming a mere branch-office economy, where most of the key decisions are made thousands of miles away in the head-offices of Europe and East Asia. As many of these head-offices shape their global policies in coordination with their national governments, this means that developments in the U.S. economy are increasingly shaped by the industrial policies of European and East Asian governments. There is a huge irony here in that those in the American establishment who have most vigorously opposed effective action by the U.S. government to balance U.S. trade have justified their position on the grounds that government must be kept out of the private sector. In effect Americans have a choice between a greater role by the U.S. government or a greater role by foreign governments……
Sufism has sometimes been called Islam for the common man. In its devotion to Muslim saints and visiting their shrines, it greatly resembles the Catholicism of the common man. It is generally peaceful and accommodating of other beliefs, as Sufism regards jihad as an internal and personal, rather than an external, struggle. Nabeel Qureshi, the man who wrote Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, came from a family who belonged to a Sufist sect. In West Africa, as it is throughout many Muslim countries, Sufist orders (they are sometimes called Brotherhoods and should not to be confused with the political organization of the Muslim Brotherhood) are the dominant form of Islam, and there is a Sufist shrine in Senegal that to attend is regarded as the equivalent of going to Mecca. Sufism, with its devotion to saints, is regarded as idolatrous by puritanical Islamic extremists. As a result, Sufist leaders and devotees and Sufist leaders have often been targeted by extremist groups like the Taliban in places like Pakistan. It is therefore not surprising, but still horribly tragic, that the Sufi of Egypt should become a target of ISIS: https://world.wng.org/content/deadly_mosque_attack_rocks_egypt_s_sinai_peninsula
The militants who attacked a Sufi mosque in Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula killed 305 people, including 27 children. Another 128 suffered injuries. Egyptian officials raised the death toll Saturday as horrific details about the attack began to emerge. Survivors said between 25 and 30 militants descended on the mosque, arriving on all-terrain vehicles. They positioned themselves at the mosque’s 12 windows and doors and began firing on the worshippers just as the imam was about to begin delivering his message.
I’d just like to point out I’ve attended churches in all four corners of the US and Hawaii as a member in five or six denominational settings (no Baptist churches, however, though the Calvary Chapels come from them) and have never heard a political sermon. Beyond folks listening to Focus on the Family during Dobson’s heyday, I don’t know of Christian leaders in my personal church-going who have been politically active.
The pregnancy counseling center where I’ve volunteered for the last 17 years made me sign a pledge that I would have nothing to do with political activism while I volunteered with them–because they did not want any one of us to reflect on the PCC or to be a stumbling block for would-be clients.
This included pro-life activism.
I’ve attended church in the following denominations: Lutheran, on-denominational military chapels, an evangelical Bible Church, Anglican, Calvary Chapel, Bible Church (okay, affiliated with John MacArthur’s The Master’s College, but apolitical) and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
(I suppose it’s worth noting that 2/3 of my life as a Christian have been spent in conservative liturgical churches).
Until I began working in Christian publishing and reading/commenting on World Magazine’s blog, I had never encountered in personal life people who mixed their Christianity with politics.
Celebrity Christians mixing the two and using their platforms in that way are the ones who should be tying on the millstones.
Interestingly, Macy Halford’s memoir My Utmost: A Devotional Memoir, about growing up in Texas and loving My Utmost for His Highest, was horrifying for me to read. She attended a large Baptist Church in Dallas that actively promoted the Bush agenda in her church while she was growing up.
A very large and important church, it sent her scurrying away from God. My Utmost is the only thing that kept her engaged with the Lord. It was really difficult to read her book, I kept wanting to say, “don’t go to that church!”
But, of course, it was too late by the time she wrote her book.
I’m in a growing conservative Presbyterian church that is distinctly not politically involved (though we care about issues affecting the broader culture and I believe that is a part of our calling). I personally know fellow members who voted for Trump, who didn’t vote at all and, yes, who voted for Clinton. But none of this has ever been discussed from the pulpit and in personal conversations, politics rarely come up (and when they do, it’s in a fairly non-partisan context). The gospel is central. Period.
So I think there is a stereotype effect going on here that comes largely from the unchurched and, generally, from church/religion critics — not that the evangelical movement of old hasn’t fed into that. There’s always a grain of truth in a stereotype. But is this characteristic of most churches or widespread? I really don’t think so.
Most believers, in my experience, are simply not very dialed in to “politics.”
Political involvement is very much a part of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist movement, which, as a denomination that makes a point of being independent, is hard to put numbers to, but it is very widespread, and manages to keep large educational institutions such as Pensacola and Bob Jones going. The tiny church my family attends was associated with a much larger IFB church that had its own public, secondary, and post secondary institution (until they excommunicated us for being Calvinists). Even now, the senior deacon in our church has a network of connections to organizations within the IFB movement. He brought a head of one of the KJV-only Bible societies in as special speaker, and the man gave a long rant about the political and moral ills of the nation, speaking of our provincial premier, who is a Liberal, in terms that I and my family felt very uncomfortable with (I may not agree with our premier in many areas, but I take seriously what the Bible says about honouring the authorities of the nation in which one is placed). Such a political tirade is typical of other IFB churches. The elder deacon himself engages extensively in political activities, and he brings his work to church far too often. There is also the aspect of professional evangelists engaging in political grandstanding. Billy Sunday, the temperance evangelist, took part in political rallies in his day, and Franklin Graham seem to be repeating the pattern. So no, it is far from just being a stereotype.
It is more than a stereotype. The pastors of some of the biggest Southern Baptist, charasmatic and Bible churches in the D/FW metroplex were openly and loudly pro-Trump before the election. Even Franklin Graham was defending the pedophile a few days ago.
Debra, You have to separate two aspects of Trump:
1. His demagogic nativism and protectionism; and
2. His constant lying, dishonesty and lengthy history of sexual misbehavior.
1. Young people will not be driven from the church if their pastor or their parents support a Pat Buchanan or a Tom Cotton, though I would urge pastors to stay out of politics.
2. When pastors and parents defend constant dishonesty and lying and excuse a lifetime of immorality, their moral authority (which is extremely important in these days) is utterly destroyed.
As I’d said, there’s always some truth to a stereotype. But I still don’t think it’s accurate to say that most believing churches are entrenched in political action.
And remember, political involvement got it start from the liberal mainline churches that jumped into the civil rights and Vietnam issues with both feet. Both causes were valid (especially civil rights) but from there many mainline churches became extremely politicized.
By the 1970s, conservative churches were following the pattern with their own causes.
I believe the election of Trump and our current political atmosphere may be a positive in the sense that more churches may take a second, very hard look at how politically active they wish to be. I still, however, think (though I don’t have the stats) they are among a minority overall.
Agreed, that’s a serious concern, although one also needs to look at the methodology — “evangelical” is a label that many proclaim.
I’d be interested in a study that looked at Christians who are church members and attend services every week, though even then pollsters are relying on a “self-identification” element.
It’s kind of like the Boy Scouts. We heard all these awful things about Boy Scouts and gays and yet in three different troops (granted, I did not go camping with them), I never heard the subject discussed once–and I attended all the committee meetings.
I think sometimes the loudest critics are actually shouting about what THEY would do in OUR situation, without ever bothering to get to know us.
The fingers, of course point both ways.
When one of my family members, who knows me well, denounces Evangelicals on FB, I responded like this: “Is this really how you see ME? If so, I need to ask forgiveness.”
He backtracked immediately and has never criticized “all” Christians again.
I wasn’t being confrontational. I was just really hurt that he would say such things about Christians after our long association.
So, maybe we’re okay with approaching people we love who are making wild claims, and asking them to help us improve. That may be a way to tone down some of their awful rhetoric.
DJ @1:41 Last year was one of the more intense experiences I’ve had in terms of politics from the pulpit, and we are changing pastors soon so I don’t think it’s going to be so much of an issue.
Nationwide, I suspect that many people—especially those in the media— see para-church ministries and leaders such as Focus on the Family and Family Research Council, and Franklin Graham, James Dobson or Russell Moore and view them as ‘the Church’. In actuality, we all represent the Church, but Christian leaders have a spotlight and microphone, and their words are often interpreted maliciously or just inaccurately, so circumspection is a needed virtue. And they need our prayers.
Ricky @ 1:04 In my opinion we shouldn’t be constantly dredging up Trump’s sexual history: it’s HISTORY, and it’s not ongoing misbehavior. He has corrected his behavior and there is no reason to believe he is behaving inappropriately now. He has moved on. So should we—we have done as much for other politicians such as George Bush, whose political positions were more amenable to establishment Republicans.
If young people have not been driven from the church in the last 40 years of Christian support for political agendas and politicians who have undermined the stability of the country’s working families by sending their jobs overseas and engaging in extraneous wars costing billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives, supporting Trump will not drive them out.
As a country we have made our choice of compromises, and now, we have the option of constantly cursing them, or providing what support we can through prayer or other means. That does not mean condoning bad behavior or outright lies—but it also does not require that every exaggeration be pronounced a lie. You and others can continue to curse Trump by calling him names if you want to, but I’m doing what I can to help him, by praying for him. I will also vote for him again if his efforts convince me that he is the best option for going in the direction I believe to be right.
Roscuro @10:16 I was sorry to hear about the terrorist attack and great loss of life at the mosque in Egypt. When I heard it was a Sufi mosque, it reminded me of one of the more fascinating and dramatic aspects of Sufism: the Whirling Dervishes. This is a clip that CNN did a few years ago. There are many examples on Youtube, but some of them are long and a few are eerie. This one is brief.
Debra @ 3:37. I understand that ideological Trumpkins (along with many Democrats) like to blame economic problems on others, particularly their benefactors. However, economic disagreements are not comparable to and are completely unrelated to the fact that Trumpkins support constant lying and dishonesty and defend sexual predators.
NAFTA never drove any youth out of the church. Christian support for the lying molester Trump has and is doing so.
If Christian ideological Trumpkins want to impose tariffs and reduce trade, go ahead. It will make us poorer, but we can stand that. A huge percentage of our poor people are obese, and our rich can do without that new BMW. Just find a protectionist to vote for who is not a pathological liar or a pervert.
By the way, there is NO evidence Trump has “corrected his behavior”. The ladies who reported his sexual assaults confirmed incidents over several decades. One happened in his home while Melania was upstairs with his youngest son. He has been a public advocate for adultery and treating women like “%&##”. He has never apologized and actually last year threatened the women who confirmed the accuracy of his own obscene confession.
Then you can keep on cursing him, and I’ll keep on praying for him, and we can hope for the best. I’ll be happy to vote for a more acceptable candidate as soon as one shows up without the same old garbage agenda you guys have been pushing for years. “Free trade” that isn’t, and insults to those who object to it. Otherwise, it’s another term of Trump. ;–)
By the way, I found a very interesting new journal—actually, Dreher mentioned it: American Affairs Journal. With all the sex scandals, anything with the word ‘affairs’ in it seems dubious, but it looks promising. Dreher referred to it as an attempt at Trumpism without Trump, so it’s not a typical Left/Right vision. As soon as I saw RR Reno’s name on the Board of Advisors, my curiosity was piqued. Here’s a link to the policy agenda page.
Debra @ 6:25 Actually, free trade that is. Free trade has added hundreds of billions of dollars to American consumers and has helped many American manufacturers stay competitive in a global market.
However, I really don’t feel that strongly about protectionism. The rest of the world is now economically literate and will continue to trade and prosper even if the US repeats the mistakes of the 1930s. If the US turns to protectionism, it will make us much poorer, but it will be a long time before we are starving like the Venezuelans. If Trump manages to build that economic “wall” between the US and our trading partners, it should reduce our export of the Weinstein/Trump culture which wreaks havoc around the globe.
I voted for Trump. There were only 3 choices, Trump, Hillary, someone who couldn’t win. I didn’t like Trump, Still don’t.
Who could vote for Hillary? Did Hillary offer a better choice?
I still don’t understand how anyone honest or Christian could vote for Hillary Clinton. I really don’t understand Democrats. They are either STUPID or evil. I used to respect some Democrats, no more.
I have been an adult SS teacher for decades. I don’t think I say any thing about politics except both sides are stupid. It does not help to have political arguments when we are trying to learn about Jesus or GOD. I have never been a member in a church that had politics from the pulpit or in SS.
Bob Buckles, For 50 years, I too have thought Democrats were either stupid or evil.
Please note: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO YOU VOTED FOR. It has every thing to do with people like Robert Jeffress, Jerry Falwell, Jr., and Mike Huckabee (and millions of other Christians) continually defending and excusing the lies and dishonesty (Might they just be exaggerations?) that come from Trump on a daily basis and his lifetime of sexual predation.
Young people do not have our decades of experience. However, they still recognize dishonesty and evil. They listen to their friends and relatives and they are not surprised by the poll results @ 3:19. So who do they think are stupid or evil?
This is Ward Bond’s scene and he revels in it and dominates it. He has returned from The War and he is both the local preacher and a Captain of the Texas Rangers. That is the top of the hierarchy in post-war Texas … except for the man who never surrendered, who never bowed his knee to the Yankees.
Bob @ 10:40
Remember. The people who vote against Trump because of sexual misconduct are the same who kept Clinton in the White House for eight years.
I generally ignore all this.
Chas, I repeat: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO YOU VOTED FOR. Given the horrible choices of last year, Christian young people can well understand how their parents or church leaders might have voted for Trump. Some of the young people I know held their noses and voted for Trump. What Christian young people can not understand is when their parents or church leaders repeatedly defend or excuse the daily lies and dishonesty of Trump or his lifetime as a sexual predator. It is not the vote itself that offends the young; it is the knee jerk defense of Trumpian dishonesty and debauchery that makes the young think their elders are (in Bob’s words) “stupid or evil”.
Ricky, if the young people you know (or their parents) are fixated on Trump’s sexual history and twitter gossip, it’s not healthy. Tell ’em to find something productive to do, and get a life, because they could waste much time being distracted with media driven nonsense . Trump really does not need to be defended—sometimes he just needs to be ignored to do his job while we do ours.
If he can help correct the lies and failed policies of the past 35 or 40 years, support policies and treaties that encourage job growth here in the US as opposed to China or India, etc., and help us regain some of our sovereignty as a nation, he will have done a lot. Such a correction in direction and also in philosophy—away from consumerism—might also have a positive affect on our spiritual condition. That would be the supreme irony, I think. :–)
Wandering Views 
Dreher covers a lot of ground in this article. His most important point is that the souls of young Evangelicals are under attack. The comment at the end from a reader is chilling.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-moore-defining-deviancy-down/
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It is particularly important that each of us remain true to the moral positions we have always held and not try to defend the indefensible or excuse outright lies. The young people are watching us.
From the article:
I heard from a conservative Evangelical friend today, a Millennial, who told me that his generation is “in meltdown” over what they consider to be the moral collapse of Evangelicals, who have chosen political power and access over upholding Biblical standards. Stephen Mansfield, author of a new book about Trump and Christian conservatives, recently told NPR that the Evangelical churches are facing a generational crisis:
In the end, the word that is used most often when I talk to the young is “hypocrisy.” They sat in their churches, and they heard certain conduct described as wrong. Yet when Donald Trump did it, or when it was reported on a video, we heard kind of a “boys will be boys” sort of response even from very, very prominent religious leaders. They began to wonder if the message they had been hearing all those years in church was consistent with the people they had respected.
It’s really thrown a lot of them into real turmoil, and I think as a result we’re going to see the number of “religious nones” increase, because many of them will continue to be religious, continue to be believers in God. But they are losing confidence in the church they were once part of, and in some cases, that’s a direct result of what happened in that election.
I have heard the same thing. Though I’m not an Evangelical, I would rather a thousand times that the Evangelical churches be theologically and morally strong than that the Republican Party hold the White House and Congress. What’s going to happen is that the GOP will eventually lose both — in the normal cycle of things, sure, but especially given how Trump’s malice and incompetence has fired up opposition — and the conservative Evangelical churches will see the true cost of the deal they have made with this particular devil.
That’s the cost to the church. There is also a cost to constitutional and cultural norms of politics and the presidency. I did not appreciate last year, when Trump was running, how great this cost was going to be. In his thin but important book On Tyranny, Twenty Lessons From the Twentieth Century, historian Timothy Snyder writes, “You submit to tyranny when you renounce the difference between what you want to hear and what is actually the case.” He continues by saying that this begins through
open hostility to verifiable reality, which takes the form of presenting inventions and lies as if they were facts. The president does this at a high rate and at a fast pace. One attempt during the 2016 campaign to track his utterances found that 78 percent of his factual claims were false. This proportion is so high that it makes the correct assertions seem like unintended oversights on the path toward total fiction. Demeaning the world as it is begins the creation of a fictional counterworld.
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@6:00 Dreher has a point. Christians who are leaders ought not condone known wrong-doing (such as Trump’s lewd speech caught on tape)—and many, like Mike Huckabee, Mike Pence, and Ben Carson don’t.
However, politically sensitive scandals are often too ‘convenient’ to be fully credible; and their timing does not allow sufficient time for many voters to comfortably work them into their voting calculus. So we usually go with what we are confident we know. Of course, what we think we know can be mistaken, and often is, in the political context. That is a normal part of being human. We educate ourselves as best we can, and carry on.
To address the broader picture, Evangelical leaders have identified too closely with their politicians—and they have done this to corral voters for the Republican party. I think most people are accustomed to hearing exaggerations or lies from politicians—even the ones they are encouraged to support.
Poorer or struggling Evangelicals who are accustomed to hearing themselves falsely described as lazy, irrelevant, ignorant or Deplorable are not so shocked to think that politicians lie, exaggerate or prove unfaithful to promises made to get their votes during an election. But it has always been discouraging to hear your religious leaders support the people who do this, and by extension, their corrupt policies that have brought much job insecurity and promoted family instability.
I would suggest that the Christian young who are shocked by our current political climate can use this occasion as a valuable opportunity to look at the world another way—to consider that not every Christian’s experience with the past 40 or so years of Republican policies are the same as their own or their parents’. And if the leaders of ‘the shocked’ want to strengthen the faith of the young, they should be teaching them resiliency and endurance instead of vilifying Trump supporters.
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This is a very long, but excellent article in The American Conservative on free trade…or rather, the lack of free trade.
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Sufism has sometimes been called Islam for the common man. In its devotion to Muslim saints and visiting their shrines, it greatly resembles the Catholicism of the common man. It is generally peaceful and accommodating of other beliefs, as Sufism regards jihad as an internal and personal, rather than an external, struggle. Nabeel Qureshi, the man who wrote Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, came from a family who belonged to a Sufist sect. In West Africa, as it is throughout many Muslim countries, Sufist orders (they are sometimes called Brotherhoods and should not to be confused with the political organization of the Muslim Brotherhood) are the dominant form of Islam, and there is a Sufist shrine in Senegal that to attend is regarded as the equivalent of going to Mecca. Sufism, with its devotion to saints, is regarded as idolatrous by puritanical Islamic extremists. As a result, Sufist leaders and devotees and Sufist leaders have often been targeted by extremist groups like the Taliban in places like Pakistan. It is therefore not surprising, but still horribly tragic, that the Sufi of Egypt should become a target of ISIS: https://world.wng.org/content/deadly_mosque_attack_rocks_egypt_s_sinai_peninsula
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I’d just like to point out I’ve attended churches in all four corners of the US and Hawaii as a member in five or six denominational settings (no Baptist churches, however, though the Calvary Chapels come from them) and have never heard a political sermon. Beyond folks listening to Focus on the Family during Dobson’s heyday, I don’t know of Christian leaders in my personal church-going who have been politically active.
The pregnancy counseling center where I’ve volunteered for the last 17 years made me sign a pledge that I would have nothing to do with political activism while I volunteered with them–because they did not want any one of us to reflect on the PCC or to be a stumbling block for would-be clients.
This included pro-life activism.
I’ve attended church in the following denominations: Lutheran, on-denominational military chapels, an evangelical Bible Church, Anglican, Calvary Chapel, Bible Church (okay, affiliated with John MacArthur’s The Master’s College, but apolitical) and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
(I suppose it’s worth noting that 2/3 of my life as a Christian have been spent in conservative liturgical churches).
Until I began working in Christian publishing and reading/commenting on World Magazine’s blog, I had never encountered in personal life people who mixed their Christianity with politics.
Celebrity Christians mixing the two and using their platforms in that way are the ones who should be tying on the millstones.
Interestingly, Macy Halford’s memoir My Utmost: A Devotional Memoir, about growing up in Texas and loving My Utmost for His Highest, was horrifying for me to read. She attended a large Baptist Church in Dallas that actively promoted the Bush agenda in her church while she was growing up.
A very large and important church, it sent her scurrying away from God. My Utmost is the only thing that kept her engaged with the Lord. It was really difficult to read her book, I kept wanting to say, “don’t go to that church!”
But, of course, it was too late by the time she wrote her book.
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Perhaps we should start using the hashtag #millstone on Twitter to call out . . . them?
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My experience is similar to michelle’s.
I’m in a growing conservative Presbyterian church that is distinctly not politically involved (though we care about issues affecting the broader culture and I believe that is a part of our calling). I personally know fellow members who voted for Trump, who didn’t vote at all and, yes, who voted for Clinton. But none of this has ever been discussed from the pulpit and in personal conversations, politics rarely come up (and when they do, it’s in a fairly non-partisan context). The gospel is central. Period.
So I think there is a stereotype effect going on here that comes largely from the unchurched and, generally, from church/religion critics — not that the evangelical movement of old hasn’t fed into that. There’s always a grain of truth in a stereotype. But is this characteristic of most churches or widespread? I really don’t think so.
Most believers, in my experience, are simply not very dialed in to “politics.”
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Political involvement is very much a part of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist movement, which, as a denomination that makes a point of being independent, is hard to put numbers to, but it is very widespread, and manages to keep large educational institutions such as Pensacola and Bob Jones going. The tiny church my family attends was associated with a much larger IFB church that had its own public, secondary, and post secondary institution (until they excommunicated us for being Calvinists). Even now, the senior deacon in our church has a network of connections to organizations within the IFB movement. He brought a head of one of the KJV-only Bible societies in as special speaker, and the man gave a long rant about the political and moral ills of the nation, speaking of our provincial premier, who is a Liberal, in terms that I and my family felt very uncomfortable with (I may not agree with our premier in many areas, but I take seriously what the Bible says about honouring the authorities of the nation in which one is placed). Such a political tirade is typical of other IFB churches. The elder deacon himself engages extensively in political activities, and he brings his work to church far too often. There is also the aspect of professional evangelists engaging in political grandstanding. Billy Sunday, the temperance evangelist, took part in political rallies in his day, and Franklin Graham seem to be repeating the pattern. So no, it is far from just being a stereotype.
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It is more than a stereotype. The pastors of some of the biggest Southern Baptist, charasmatic and Bible churches in the D/FW metroplex were openly and loudly pro-Trump before the election. Even Franklin Graham was defending the pedophile a few days ago.
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Debra, You have to separate two aspects of Trump:
1. His demagogic nativism and protectionism; and
2. His constant lying, dishonesty and lengthy history of sexual misbehavior.
1. Young people will not be driven from the church if their pastor or their parents support a Pat Buchanan or a Tom Cotton, though I would urge pastors to stay out of politics.
2. When pastors and parents defend constant dishonesty and lying and excuse a lifetime of immorality, their moral authority (which is extremely important in these days) is utterly destroyed.
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As I’d said, there’s always some truth to a stereotype. But I still don’t think it’s accurate to say that most believing churches are entrenched in political action.
And remember, political involvement got it start from the liberal mainline churches that jumped into the civil rights and Vietnam issues with both feet. Both causes were valid (especially civil rights) but from there many mainline churches became extremely politicized.
By the 1970s, conservative churches were following the pattern with their own causes.
I believe the election of Trump and our current political atmosphere may be a positive in the sense that more churches may take a second, very hard look at how politically active they wish to be. I still, however, think (though I don’t have the stats) they are among a minority overall.
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Look at the change in attitude toward perverts and sexual predators in public office among white evangelicals. This is what disgusts young people.
https://relevantmagazine.com/slice/study-white-evangelicals-are-suddenly-much-more-likely-to-forgive-politicians-immoral-conduct/
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Agreed, that’s a serious concern, although one also needs to look at the methodology — “evangelical” is a label that many proclaim.
I’d be interested in a study that looked at Christians who are church members and attend services every week, though even then pollsters are relying on a “self-identification” element.
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Meanwhile, this is a very tough time of the year for our insecure little toddler:
https://twitter.com/adamjwhitedc/status/934194281610231808
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It’s kind of like the Boy Scouts. We heard all these awful things about Boy Scouts and gays and yet in three different troops (granted, I did not go camping with them), I never heard the subject discussed once–and I attended all the committee meetings.
I think sometimes the loudest critics are actually shouting about what THEY would do in OUR situation, without ever bothering to get to know us.
The fingers, of course point both ways.
When one of my family members, who knows me well, denounces Evangelicals on FB, I responded like this: “Is this really how you see ME? If so, I need to ask forgiveness.”
He backtracked immediately and has never criticized “all” Christians again.
I wasn’t being confrontational. I was just really hurt that he would say such things about Christians after our long association.
So, maybe we’re okay with approaching people we love who are making wild claims, and asking them to help us improve. That may be a way to tone down some of their awful rhetoric.
But you can’t do that on Twitter. 😦
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The problem is real. It is real for Christians. It is real for Republicans. Just call it The Trump Effect.
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DJ @1:41 Last year was one of the more intense experiences I’ve had in terms of politics from the pulpit, and we are changing pastors soon so I don’t think it’s going to be so much of an issue.
Nationwide, I suspect that many people—especially those in the media— see para-church ministries and leaders such as Focus on the Family and Family Research Council, and Franklin Graham, James Dobson or Russell Moore and view them as ‘the Church’. In actuality, we all represent the Church, but Christian leaders have a spotlight and microphone, and their words are often interpreted maliciously or just inaccurately, so circumspection is a needed virtue. And they need our prayers.
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Ricky @ 1:04 In my opinion we shouldn’t be constantly dredging up Trump’s sexual history: it’s HISTORY, and it’s not ongoing misbehavior. He has corrected his behavior and there is no reason to believe he is behaving inappropriately now. He has moved on. So should we—we have done as much for other politicians such as George Bush, whose political positions were more amenable to establishment Republicans.
If young people have not been driven from the church in the last 40 years of Christian support for political agendas and politicians who have undermined the stability of the country’s working families by sending their jobs overseas and engaging in extraneous wars costing billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives, supporting Trump will not drive them out.
As a country we have made our choice of compromises, and now, we have the option of constantly cursing them, or providing what support we can through prayer or other means. That does not mean condoning bad behavior or outright lies—but it also does not require that every exaggeration be pronounced a lie. You and others can continue to curse Trump by calling him names if you want to, but I’m doing what I can to help him, by praying for him. I will also vote for him again if his efforts convince me that he is the best option for going in the direction I believe to be right.
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Roscuro @10:16 I was sorry to hear about the terrorist attack and great loss of life at the mosque in Egypt. When I heard it was a Sufi mosque, it reminded me of one of the more fascinating and dramatic aspects of Sufism: the Whirling Dervishes. This is a clip that CNN did a few years ago. There are many examples on Youtube, but some of them are long and a few are eerie. This one is brief.
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Very long but insightful article about one mother and a transgender teenager:
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Debra @ 3:37. I understand that ideological Trumpkins (along with many Democrats) like to blame economic problems on others, particularly their benefactors. However, economic disagreements are not comparable to and are completely unrelated to the fact that Trumpkins support constant lying and dishonesty and defend sexual predators.
NAFTA never drove any youth out of the church. Christian support for the lying molester Trump has and is doing so.
If Christian ideological Trumpkins want to impose tariffs and reduce trade, go ahead. It will make us poorer, but we can stand that. A huge percentage of our poor people are obese, and our rich can do without that new BMW. Just find a protectionist to vote for who is not a pathological liar or a pervert.
By the way, there is NO evidence Trump has “corrected his behavior”. The ladies who reported his sexual assaults confirmed incidents over several decades. One happened in his home while Melania was upstairs with his youngest son. He has been a public advocate for adultery and treating women like “%&##”. He has never apologized and actually last year threatened the women who confirmed the accuracy of his own obscene confession.
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Then you can keep on cursing him, and I’ll keep on praying for him, and we can hope for the best. I’ll be happy to vote for a more acceptable candidate as soon as one shows up without the same old garbage agenda you guys have been pushing for years. “Free trade” that isn’t, and insults to those who object to it. Otherwise, it’s another term of Trump. ;–)
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By the way, I found a very interesting new journal—actually, Dreher mentioned it: American Affairs Journal. With all the sex scandals, anything with the word ‘affairs’ in it seems dubious, but it looks promising. Dreher referred to it as an attempt at Trumpism without Trump, so it’s not a typical Left/Right vision. As soon as I saw RR Reno’s name on the Board of Advisors, my curiosity was piqued. Here’s a link to the policy agenda page.
https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/05/our-policy-agenda/
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Only if you can persuade the Democrats to nominate Hillary again. I don’t think they are that dumb, but we do now live in an Idiocracy.
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Debra @ 6:25 Actually, free trade that is. Free trade has added hundreds of billions of dollars to American consumers and has helped many American manufacturers stay competitive in a global market.
http://www.aei.org/publication/nafta-has-been-a-smashing-success-lets-hope-the-protectionist-in-chief-doesnt-make-america-poorer-by-scrapping-it/
However, I really don’t feel that strongly about protectionism. The rest of the world is now economically literate and will continue to trade and prosper even if the US repeats the mistakes of the 1930s. If the US turns to protectionism, it will make us much poorer, but it will be a long time before we are starving like the Venezuelans. If Trump manages to build that economic “wall” between the US and our trading partners, it should reduce our export of the Weinstein/Trump culture which wreaks havoc around the globe.
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If the wall will prevent us spreading Christian Consumerism as a break-off branch of the prosperity gospel, it will be sufficient. :–)
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Debra, You may want to have a talk with Junior Trump.
https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/status/934579683559198720
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Folks, I think this type of thing (which happens almost daily) counts as a “lie”, not an “exaggeration”.
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I voted for Trump. There were only 3 choices, Trump, Hillary, someone who couldn’t win. I didn’t like Trump, Still don’t.
Who could vote for Hillary? Did Hillary offer a better choice?
I still don’t understand how anyone honest or Christian could vote for Hillary Clinton. I really don’t understand Democrats. They are either STUPID or evil. I used to respect some Democrats, no more.
I have been an adult SS teacher for decades. I don’t think I say any thing about politics except both sides are stupid. It does not help to have political arguments when we are trying to learn about Jesus or GOD. I have never been a member in a church that had politics from the pulpit or in SS.
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Ross Douthat has now joined our discussion:
Bob Buckles, For 50 years, I too have thought Democrats were either stupid or evil.
Please note: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO YOU VOTED FOR. It has every thing to do with people like Robert Jeffress, Jerry Falwell, Jr., and Mike Huckabee (and millions of other Christians) continually defending and excusing the lies and dishonesty (Might they just be exaggerations?) that come from Trump on a daily basis and his lifetime of sexual predation.
Young people do not have our decades of experience. However, they still recognize dishonesty and evil. They listen to their friends and relatives and they are not surprised by the poll results @ 3:19. So who do they think are stupid or evil?
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Having seen Casablanca in the theater two weeks ago, I tend to agree with the writer that this may be the greatest scene in cinematic history.
http://seveninchesofyourtime.com/cinemas-greatest-scene-casablanca-and-la-marseillaise/
There is one other that needs to be considered.
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This is Ward Bond’s scene and he revels in it and dominates it. He has returned from The War and he is both the local preacher and a Captain of the Texas Rangers. That is the top of the hierarchy in post-war Texas … except for the man who never surrendered, who never bowed his knee to the Yankees.
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Bob @ 10:40
Remember. The people who vote against Trump because of sexual misconduct are the same who kept Clinton in the White House for eight years.
I generally ignore all this.
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Chas, I repeat: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO YOU VOTED FOR. Given the horrible choices of last year, Christian young people can well understand how their parents or church leaders might have voted for Trump. Some of the young people I know held their noses and voted for Trump. What Christian young people can not understand is when their parents or church leaders repeatedly defend or excuse the daily lies and dishonesty of Trump or his lifetime as a sexual predator. It is not the vote itself that offends the young; it is the knee jerk defense of Trumpian dishonesty and debauchery that makes the young think their elders are (in Bob’s words) “stupid or evil”.
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Ricky, if the young people you know (or their parents) are fixated on Trump’s sexual history and twitter gossip, it’s not healthy. Tell ’em to find something productive to do, and get a life, because they could waste much time being distracted with media driven nonsense . Trump really does not need to be defended—sometimes he just needs to be ignored to do his job while we do ours.
If he can help correct the lies and failed policies of the past 35 or 40 years, support policies and treaties that encourage job growth here in the US as opposed to China or India, etc., and help us regain some of our sovereignty as a nation, he will have done a lot. Such a correction in direction and also in philosophy—away from consumerism—might also have a positive affect on our spiritual condition. That would be the supreme irony, I think. :–)
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