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Our Daily Thread 2-27-13

Good Morning!

What’s on your mind today?

Quote of the Day

“Morality without religion is only a kind of dead reckoning – an endeavor to find our place on a cloudy sea by measuring the distance we have run, but without any observation of the heavenly bodies.”

Henry Wadsworth  Longfellow

I’ve become a big fan of these guys.

Michael Meets Mozart – 1 Piano, 2 Guys, 100 Cello Tracks – ThePianoGuys

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Who has a QoD for us?

79 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 2-27-13”

  1. Yesterday Klasko used the expression “drew down” as in “we drew down that house.” I’ve never heard that before and am guessing it’s military but based on the context I couldn’t figure out what it means. Explanation, anyone?

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  4. Good Morning all. Mr. P is still in a lot of pain so he had a rough night last night which means so did I. He tried to be considerate but I knew he was up wandering the house. I am also a little antsy about work. I question whether I am doing enough or a good job. I really like what I am doing and want to do it well. I just don’t know if I am. There has been some push back from the changes we have made and I am feeling like they are blaming me and questioning my place there.

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  5. AJ – none of those make sense to me in Klasko’s context. She said, “Then we drew down that place and moved to Ludwigsburg” and later “We drew that neighborhood down too.”

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  6. Kim, don’t let a rough night and lack of sleep put you in a mood to worry and get all paranoid about work. While it’s possible that your concerns are legit, it’s also possible that you’re seeing everything negatively due to being overly tired and worrying about everything else that’s going on in your life. To paraphrase another fine southern gal, “Worry about that tomorrow.”

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  8. Annms, I can’t say I don’t believe in predestination, the Bible is full of it. But I don’t understand it. I have studied this longer than most of you have been alive.
    I don’t understand it.
    I am convinced that there will be a thousand years of peace and rule by Christ after the tribulation.
    I believe in a Mid-trib or pre-wrath rapture.
    That is, Christians will endure part of the tribulation.

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  9. I am pre-trib, no predestination probably because that is the tradition I was raised in. I could defend it better it I had time but today I need to find a new rug for my living room.

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  10. For the record, I do believe in predestination, but don’t know where I fall on the tribulation. I know great theologians have disagreed on these questions, but I find them extremely interesting. I’ve been reading a book on Romans by Dr. R.C. Sproul, a reformed theologian (most of you probably know of him). It is a good book.

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  11. Good morning all! It’s bright and sunny here in NOVA and the weather guessers say it’s going into the 60s today.

    AJ – Since the first time you posted The Piano Guys, I have bought 2 CDs. And I can tell you that I have been playing them a lot and I am still not tired of hearing them. They have a God-given talent and it is their passion. It is so rare to see this.

    Linda – I’ll be happy to explain. It is indeed military speak. I sometimes forget that not everyone understands it. We were part of the draw down (or closing) of an entire military community. Our community of Bad Toelz was completely closed and those of us who had time left on our tours moved, lock, stock and barrel to the Greater Stuttgart Military Community (GSMC). Those who were too short on their time were sent to some other place. Most of then went to Ft. Devens (which itself drew down and relocated to Ft. Carson Colorado.) Since we had a little over a year left when we moved to GSMC, we were housed in a neighborhiood that was slated to be closed at about the time that we would be moving back to the States. We drew down the neighborhood means that we closed it. Litterally. My family was the very last family to move out of the neighborhood, which was a ghost town by the time we left. We were there alone for 3 weeks. It was kind of weird. We were there because I refused to locate to temporary housing in another neighborhood for that last 3 weeks. Moving is hard enough on a military family. Moving under those circumstances was harder, and I did not want to have an unnecessary extra move, because the military would not have packed my things to ship them back to the States at that time. It was a waste of money, but they would have moved us and our stuff to the temp quarters and then moved packed us out only a short time later to move our stuff back to the states. I didn;t trust the movers to do it twice without breaking stuff. We lost a lot of our stuff due to breakage because the packers did not pack well for an in-country move when we drew down Bad Toelz.

    To draw down a community in the miitary means to close it. And it’s not a happy circumstance for those caught up in it.

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  12. I’m hosting a birthday party for Becca this Saturday at my home. She turns 8 on March 3rd. We invited her whole class (22 students), plus friends from the neighborhood, for a grand total of 33 invitations. We gave out the invitations two and a half weeks in advance. I’ve had RSVP’s from a whopping ten parents. It is so difficult to plan a party when 2/3 of the people don’t bother to respond. This is not the first time this has happened, but I’m always amazed at people’s lack of courtesy. How hard is it to send an email or pick up the phone to let someone know your intentions? Uhg!

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  13. Annms – Wow – that’s 2 cans of worms in the same QOD!

    I have had the predestination discussion with many of my Calvinist friends. It became a point of contention among some folks in a Bible study I attended. I attempted to teach from a neutral point of view because I believe that everyone , through their own study of Scripture and prayer can and should come to their own conclusion. Since I am not leading a Bible study here on this blog, I will say that I believe in predestination, but not as most christians define it. I do not believe in personal predestination (as in, “God has predestined Klasko to be a believer and, therefore, saved, and he predestined that Joe Schmo would not be a believer, and therefore, He predestined that Joe schmoo would not be saved.” This is how most people understand predestination.) I also believe that God gave man free will to believe or not, as he did with Adam and Eve. It was their free will to disobey and eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That was their unbelief, which God foreknew and had already made the plan of salvation since before the foundation of the world. In the case of Klasko and Joe Schmo – God foreknew that Klasko would believe and Joe Schmo would not, and yet he created them anyway, and wove them into His Plan for His purposes. (Some vessels for honor, some vessels for dishonor). He placed us all in history to fulfill our roles according to his plan. God foreknew Judas’ actions and placed him in history to betray Jesus. He placed Pharaoh in history to act according to Pharaoh’s own nature and God’s plan. He predestined those who believe to be saved and inherit the kingdom and all that goes with it. He predestined those who refuse to believe to the lake of fire and those who refuse to believe have passed this sentence upon themselves. But I do not believe that God sits in heaven and arbitrarily decides who will and who won’t believe and be saved.

    If you would like to discuss this more off the blog, I have a very long position paper that I wrote on the topic. AJ has my email address. He can give it to you.

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  14. Believe in predestination? But of course. It’s all over the Bible. 🙂

    Loraine Boettner’s book on the subject really helped me in coming to a better understanding of it, though there certainly is some mystery that remains. I guess that’s because God is God and we are us. 😉

    But you also can’t do much better than R.C.

    I lean post or a- mill.

    I read a lot of the pre-mil stuff as a new Christian, though, I thought that was the only view out there.

    Kim, hang in there — I think Linda has a point, it’s probably everything combined that you’re going through right now that is leading to your unsettled feelings at work. You’ve had a LOT on your plate lately.

    Glad BG is getting into softball. What fun. How I would have loved that opportunity as a young girl. But they didn’t really offer it for girls back then, back in the dark-dark ages. 😦

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  15. Post, pre or amillennial. That’s another can of worms. I am pre-millenial. Having said that, I believe that the raprute occurs mid Tribulation. Having said that, I believe that the Great Tribulation is a 3 1/2 year period of time, and I also believe that We are out of here at the last trumjpet (the 7th) because the 7th trumpet begins the pouring out of the wrath of God (7 bowls), and the believers will not experience the wrath of God, it is not reserved for us, Jesus experienced that wrath for us in our stead.

    Everything up to the 7th trumpet – I believe that the believers will experience it. In fact, I believe that 3 of the 7 seals are already broken. I believe that the seals have a lot to do with Islam and has been missed by theologians in the past because as the day draws nearer, the understanding becomes clearer. Also Islam is a huge force that in the Middle East and Holy Lands that has been overlooked. I believe that Islam is the Dreadful Terrible Beast of Daniel’s prophecies. Pretty soon, Islam will occupy and control (rule) all the land that once belonged to the Roman Empire. (It is less about who owns it, that what real estate they own and occupy). God’s promises to Abraham concerned an heir AND land. The land is important.

    I believe in the millennuim before a final rebellion. There will be people made of flesh in the millennium and all flesh is corrupt, hence the final rebellion.

    I have studied this quite extensively. I am also quite sure that there will be many who disagree with me on both predestination and end times prophesy. There is room for disagreement, because some things remain unclear. I have no problem agreeing to disagree with my brothers and sisters who hold other views. These are conclusions that I have been led to during hours and hours of personal study. When I teach these thing, I am careful to give all sides of the argument and their supporting Scriptures and let people come to their own conclusions. If , in my study, I discover that I have erred, I will not hesitate to say so. I take very seriously the handling of the Word of God.

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  16. From yesterday – AJ I think it would be great to meet up with some of you here at WV sometime. Mostly, it depends on timing and if I can get Mr. Klasko to agree to it. He is really not much of a joiner. I’m the social butterfly. I’m what keeps him from being a hermit. :-/

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  17. Good morning. That’s quite a QoD! I’ll be back later to answer them.

    I do have a question for anyone who would care to answer. I’ve been witnessing to a young Mormon lady (first online, and now via email), which I’ve brought up here before, on the prayer thread, mainly. The main focus of our discussion so far has been whether the Book of Mormon is also God’s Word. In her most recent email to me, she stated that the Book of Mormon is God’s Word, and quoted Ezekiel 37: 15-17. “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, for Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions. Then take another stick, and write upon it, for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions. And join them one to another into one stick. And they shall become one in thine hand.”

    In a nutshell, she believes that the first stick represents the Bible, and the other stick represents the Book of Mormon, that based on that passage, you don’t have the complete Word of God unless you have both books.

    Any thoughts from any of you who are more scholarly on the Old Testament than I am (and that’s probably most of you) about the context of those verses and what I can say to her about said context?

    Thanks, guys.

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  19. QoD: In cold, scholarly terms, I would be a predestination premillenial – which would convey nothing about what I believe.

    Take predestination: Growing up, I heard shouting matches on this topic between relatives. That God is absolutely sovereign over all aspects of His Creation, including determining their eternal destiny, I have not the smallest doubt – see Romans 9. That man has full control over his actions and will be held accountable for them is a dead certainty – see Ezekiel 18. These two truths are as certain as the Three Persons of the Godhead and how they work is as unfathomable to human comprehension.

    Eschatology is not an important subject to me and my pastors have all refused to take firm positions on it. Basically, I believe John’s simple statement that “Little children, now is the last time” (I John 2:18) and thus Revelation is a view of the history of Christ and His Church from the other side. That it ends with the coming of Christ and the resurrection is confirmed by Christ and Paul. The millenium I accept simply because it is there in Revelation, but I don’t understand it. Ezekiel and Daniel’s prophesies contain more about the first coming of Christ and the building of His Church than the end times. Christ said that His coming would be a surprise and as it is the only thing we are commanded to look for, I think He meant to keep us on our toes.

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  20. I agree. essentially, with Klasko’s 10:07. We could quibble about some points. e.g. I doubt that the seals are open yet. I suspect that someone, the Mahdi or 12th Imam, will come and unite ten nations in the middle east, centering around Turkey. Since, under the leadership of Obama, Hagel, and Kerry, the US will no longer be a serious factor in the Middle East, this revived Ottoman Empire will have hegemony in the area. How that affects us, I don’t know.
    I do believe that we will be caught up in the coming tribulation.
    In this, I differ from Walid Shoebat. And possibly Klasko.

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  21. Of this I’m certain, the America we love is no longer viable.
    The tipping point occurred several years ago. We tipped.
    Our, and to a greater extent, the Boomer Generation has eaten all the meat off the bone. Obama and his ilk are still trying to gnaw down to the last bit.
    There ain’t nothing there! It’s gone!
    $17,000,000,000 doesn’t exist!
    We’re talking about the total resources of 17,000 billionaires here.

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  22. What an interesting thread we’ve got going today! I love to hear y’alls thoughts, as I respect each of your opinions. I didn’t expect we’d all agree on these topics, which is primarily why I posed the question, to get a wide range of responses. I love it when people back up their views with scripture references. I must admit, (with much embarrassment), I can rarely do that. I am not as well-versed in the Bible as I should be. And, I don’t mean to suggest that I don’t also like the comments without scripture references.

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  23. I’m post-trib because I believe it already happened, that there is no future tribulation. (It was still future when it was written.) I don’t believe that a post-Rapure Millennium is consistent with Scripture, and pretty much requires a dispensational understanding of Scripture to hold it. (That is, you have to believe that somehow God has separate plans for Jewish believers and for Gentile believers, which means, what? that Jews can be saved without Christ? Scripture presents, in contrast with that, that believing Gentiles are grafted into the believing body that was already established, and that believing Jews and believing Gentiles are one body.)

    I don’t understand all the imagery of Revelation, but I really don’t think we were intended to parse it all out–“oh, this must mean Russia, and this may mean the Roman Catholic Church.” Believers in 956 A.D. might have had their own speculation, which obviously would have been wrong. So proper study of Revelation cannot demand that we be able to figure out which nation is in view, or what that particular candlestick represents. The details are secondary; Revelation is about Jesus Christ. Prophecy only “makes sense” after it is fulfilled; in the meantime, I think we are to know it not so that we can cipher out exactly what it means, but so that we will recognize its fulfillment when we see it.

    And yes, I believe in predestination; I think the Bible teaches it quite clearly.

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  24. 6 arrows,

    I’m not particularly scholarly, but I just looked at the chapter, and from the context, it’s about the reunification of Israel and Judah. If I were you, I’d ask your friend how her sect’s interpretation fits into the whole context. Heretical sects generally just ignore context. Don’t let her put you in the position of always having to defend your interpretation while letting her just throw hers out there. The more you challenge her to do that, the deeper she’ll have to go and the more likely she’ll begin to see her system fall apart.

    Also, this is a good opportunity for you to go deeper into your own study on the chapter. I find that, when I’m challenged on something like that, I begin to study it with new eyes, which deepens my own understanding and, hence, my faith. Which is one of the reason’s I like apologetics.

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  25. When I was younger, my favorite theologian was Dr. William Bell, head of the Religion Dept. at Dallas Baptist University and Resident Theologian at First Baptist Church in Euless, Texas. Today, my favorite theologian is Cheryl. Like Chas, I believe in predestination (since I believe the Bible teaches it), but I don’t understand it, and it made me feel better to hear Chas say the same thing.

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  27. I’ve been discussing two standard features of military terminology on my blog the last two times: “need to know,” and “demonstrated unreliability.” On Friday, my personal military guy will be a guest blogger discussing what he describes as a “male romance novel.”

    Turning the tables out here on the west coast! 🙂

    How do you Demonstrate Unreliability?

    (I’d forgotten what draw down meant, myself. Thanks for the explanation, Klasko)

    Keep those WWI items coming! 🙂

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  28. QsoD: Predesdination or freewill? I don’t think it is either or, but and and both.
    I am mid-trib, pre-wrath. I believe there will be a thousand year reign. Oh to have the time to put all the references in here, but I am on a book deadline.

    I am sequestered in a hotel, in my hometown 😉 to finish this segment of the book. It is an ocean front room so I have the sea as my muse and can see that the waves while lovely, are not great for surfing, so that temptation is out of the way. To use the language of 6 arrows, I have too many arrows at home to hit this target, so I have retreated 🙂

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  30. Michelle,

    Liked your post. 🙂

    Makes perfect sense when you think about it.

    “he who is faithful in little is also faithful in much; and he who is unjust in little is unjust also in much.”

    Same as it ever was I suppose. Truth is truth, regardless of the year on the calender.

    🙂

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  31. Michelle, have you read “Rilla of Ingleside” by L. M. Montgomery? The last book in the Anne of Green Gables series, it depicts WWI from the view of those left behind to wait. As with all of Montgomery’s books, the background characters have the most interesting things to say and the discussions about military leaders and politicians give a vivid picture of how everyday people viewed the conflict.

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  32. I should add that Montgomery lived through that war and the book was written shortly after – so although it is a novel, it is significant to the era.

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  34. And I would add quickly that doctrine is vital for Christians to know and discuss and, yes, often times debate.

    The truth is important and has been too often fuzzed over and twisted when enough attention isn’t given to these issues. The church pays the price for such neglect, as I think is evident in the relative weakness of evangelical churches in America today.

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  35. Eschatology, however, allows for some wiggle room, I’d argue. Too much of what I hear discussed on that topic involved “filling in the blanks” of Scripture and speculation, which makes me uneasy.

    Some things we just do not know — and then we have to let God be God.

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  36. Rilla of Ingleside I think is Montgomery’s best. You really see how she grows as a writer when you read through the whole Green Gables series. Love Anne of, but Rilla of, has much more depth.

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  37. Klasko, and then Chas, more or less, hit my views on both subjects very well.

    I think that God predestined groups of people, and the Earth, but that individuals are still responsible for their own choices and that God did not predestine specific individuals to damnation or salvation. (In fact, I have to admit that I find the view that He did abhorrent. It makes God out to be a monster, IMO. The only time in my life when I truly understood atheist’s fear and dislike of God was when I was seriously considering a strong Calvinist/Reformed view of Him.)

    Although, I admit that I am sympathetic to the way that Roscuro described it as well. I figure it is truly BOTH things that are true, and — like the Trinity — it is simply impossible for our finite minds to presently grasp the whole truth. However, I choose to lean toward choice, because it emphasizes God’s LOVE, rather than toward predestination, because it emphasizes God’s holiness at the expense of love and grace.

    I believe in a 7th trumpet rapture, more or less, and a 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation (more or less), that the world religion/empire of the anti-Christ will be Islam, and that there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth followed by a short-lived rebellion, and then a new Heaven and a new Earth. (And, by the way, I fully believe that God has a plan for Israel and uses them as His “prophetic time clock” without having a separate plan for their salvation. I don’t even see the issue with this.)

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  38. On the QOD, I agree with Cheryl, 100%.
    Klasko, thanks for the explanation.
    Also, Klasko’s hubby sounds exactly like mine. I will be there, whenever, but I doubt he would enjoy it.
    6 Arrows: I doubt she would do it but if your friend would read “The Mormon War” by Brandon Kinney, it might open her eyes to a lot about Joseph Smith and the Mormon “religion.”

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  41. Linda and Klasko,

    If your husbands don’t wish to come along, I understand. But my wife will either way. Once we get a better idea on our plans, I’ll let you both know and we can hopefully arrange something. I think it’ll be fun. 🙂

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  42. I just think it’s kind of sad that so many Christians miss the biggest, most exciting MIRACLE of our generation … the reconstituted Israel. The only nation EVER to be reborn after its complete destruction and dispersal. The only people EVER to maintain their identity for over a thousand years, and then come back together as a nation.

    My great-grandfather preached on those prophecies in the Bible, and he had to “spiritualize” them, because everyone knew that Israel didn’t exist anymore and couldn’t exist. So, of course God didn’t mean those prophecies literally … except that He did! And, God did it! And, Israel is a nation again!

    How wonderful (and literal) is our God! 🙂 And, yet, if you think the Bible is “all said and done” and all the prophecies are fulfilled, you sit with this giant miracle staring you in the face, and you don’t even see it. 😦

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  43. Both are true. God is fully sovereign and man is fully responsible for his actions; and therein lies a good amount of mystery.

    Amen! On that we can agree. 🙂

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  45. We may not understand it, but we can’t thwart God’s will — that would put us in control. He is sovereign (including over our very salvation), we are not.

    We cannot boast of anything — it is all of His grace.

    Why were you and not your neighbor saved? Did you have more (or less) intelligence? Spiritual sensitivity? Even sinfulness? Faith conjured up in and of yourself?

    There’s nothing we bring, it is God’s choosing — he chooses and loves us first.

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  46. Far from making God a “monster,” it makes him exactly who the Bible says He is (and was and always will be) — the sovereign and loving (because you know what we ALL deserve) God of the universe. 🙂

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  47. But, Donna, you are then saying that God only loves SOME of His children, and — in fact — a very, very small number of them. And, the rest? He’s willing, before they are even conceived, to send them to eternal torture over a choice they never made, and could not change.

    I can’t even begin to defend that point of view. 😦

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  48. I am fully sovereign in my household. When I was a teacher, I was fully sovereign over my classroom.

    However, I VOLUNTARILY concede some of my control to my children (and used to concede control over various aspects of the classroom to the students). My conceding aspects of control over to my kids in no way lessens my sovereignty or my power or my ability to step in at any time to resume control of those aspects when necessary.

    In fact, that “sovereignty” argument is the WORST argument that Calvinists offer. It just doesn’t make sense in the real world, where those in power often delegate their authority voluntarily and in no way diminish their power.

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  49. My kids thwart my will all the time. 🙂

    If God permits us to thwart His will (and He obviously does with any straight forward reading of the Bible), then it in no way reduces His control.

    Most parents understand this fully. Certainly, you can MAKE your kids (or try, in the case of earthly parents) behave and do what you want, but that won’t be a relationship of love and real attachment.

    God doesn’t want puppets. What would be the point? So, He voluntarily concedes a certain degree of control to His children. This means that there is a true relationship, and true interaction. Why would He want anything less?

    Who wants to play with dolls, when you can have real kids?

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  50. Real relationship means allowing the other person to make choices. If they choose not to love you, it hurts. If they choose to love you, you have something real.

    Forcing someone to “love” you is rape (mentally or physically).

    For God to have real relationship with us, He voluntarily gives us the right to choose. Because He can (and occasionally does … for someone He wishes to use, like Paul) revoke this gift, it in no way reduces His sovereignty. He does not have to control each and every thing down to the nth degree in order to be sovereign. That is the mind of a petty tyrant.

    The true king realizes that he has far more control (and gains real love, real respect, real devotion), when the people are given responsibilities and choices and the King does not fully exercise all of His power, but allows the people a degree of freedom.

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  51. In fact, I often think that strong Calvinists/Reformed fail to see the irony in how they LIMIT (yes, you heard me right!) God. They claim that God can’t be God unless He controls things like a petty tyrant. He must be fully sovereign and can’t give His children any control, or “He wouldn’t be God.”

    The irony of limiting God like this seems to escape them. 🙂

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  52. Calvinist/Reformed here.

    I don’t believe God’s a tyrant. Most tyrants don’t extend grace to undeserving subjects.


    But, Donna, you are then saying that God only loves SOME of His children, and — in fact — a very, very small number of them. And, the rest? He’s willing, before they are even conceived, to send them to eternal torture over a choice they never made, and could not change.

    I can’t even begin to defend that point of view. 😦

    I see that argument quite a bit, but I don’t know of any theology that isn’t susceptible to it. What does the non-Calvinist do with that challenge? Doesn’t God still create beings, knowing the majority of them will reject him? If he is loving, and if loving is defined, in part, as “not sending people to eternal torture,” then who wants to defend such a God?

    Who ever said anything about “torture”?

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  54. We are all children in the sense that we are created by God and bear his image.

    But the Bible speaks very specifically about His children being, well, his called-out and saved children.

    Jesus saved all for whom he died, no?

    I’m at work, more later.

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  56. Basically what Donna said.
    Yes to predestination. I too think the Bible teaches it. A dead man can’t bring himself to life. I don’t think that’s in contradiction to the free will we have to make decisions on whether or not to commit this sin or that sin, what job to take, etc. David made a lot of sinful mistakes, but he was the apple of God’s eye. God lets us make our own decisions and our own mistakes, but we will be held accountable for them. We were dead in our sins, and we cannot give ourselves life, but we are responsible for the way we live our lives. Of course, I have trouble understanding, but I don’t have to understand everything.
    I would be considered Reformed/Calvinist, but I don’t like the term Calvinist because it sounds like I follow Calvin. I don’t, I follow Jesus, but I think it’s what Scripture teaches.
    As to the other question, I don’t know. I’ll take a wait and see approach. There’s a lot of disagreement among respected theologians. Post-mil or a-mil makes more sense to me, but I haven’t studied it a lot. I don’t think it’s a big deal to know. We’ll find out some day.

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  57. One problem with the anti-election argument (besides the fact that the Bible is so full of talk of election) is that, unless you’re a universalist, you really can’t get past the questions of “God would be so unkind if. . . .” See, what finally was the nail in the coffin for me, sealing off the anti-Calvinist mindset I was raised with, was realizing that “God makes the choice” was being replaced with “Other Christians need to have a good enough sales pitch.”

    I’ve heard people talk about preaching and giving an invitation and no one responds, so they get another preacher to say a few more words, hoping he’ll be able to talk them into it. I’ve had people tell me that the one who “chooses” Christ is wiser and more humble for making that choice (meaning we bring something to our own salvation!). And belief that man can be “talked into” salvation doesn’t end up with a better answer for “what about those who have never heard?” In fact, it has a worse answer–because instead of trusting God’s sovereignty to elect those He wills, and save them, it ends up saying, “Someone didn’t get the gospel to this person, and he should have. But the person who ‘should have’ witnessed doesn’t pay for this negligence; the one who never heard does.”

    And finally, if Christ died for everyone, but not all are saved, then the only difference between the ones who are saved and the ones who are lost is that the saved ones “made a choice” for Christ. In other words, man’s action and not God’s is the determining factor. But reasonably, the only sin that damns is his rejection, not his other sins (because they were paid for on the Cross), so his rejection is the only sin for which he can or should be punished . . . but I’m not quite sure why he should be punished for that one either, if all his other sins are paid for. Universalism makes more sense of the argument that Christ died for all, not just the elect.

    What it comes down to for me is trusting God, even if I don’t understand it all. We know (because God has told us) that we all deserve judgment, and that it is His mercy that saves. We also know that He has chosen, in mercy, who to save. And we know that He acts in justice to the rest. If the punishment is truly deserved, then it is not unjust, and that’s where we get a little squeamish: “Does the sinner really deserve damnation?” God says he does; that too is an act of faith. (I don’t think we know a lot about what damnation looks like; most of what is in Scripture is imagery, not systematic theology, on this subject; so I’ll trust God with the details on that one too.)

    But when I have to choose between two options: (1) Some people are saved because Christians have given an adequate sales pitch and (2) Some people are saved because God chose them, I’m satisfied with Scripture’s answer that God chose, but didn’t tell us why.

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  58. [The jailer] “brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house” (Acts 16:30-31)
    “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
    Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    Our Lord is not a monster…it is clear His desire is for all to believe upon the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ and to find eternal life in Him. I do not believe He creates anyone to condemn them to hell….we do have choices to make…I will defer to my Creator…I will trust Him in all things…He’s sooo much smarter than me!!

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  59. One must remember context when using pauline epistles to make generalizations about predestination and election, and the called.

    We should note that when Jesus was speaking of the called, he was speaking of the universal call issued from God to all of mankind to salvation. This was during the time of His earthly ministry when He was calling all peoples, men from every tongue and tribe and nation unto Himself. When Paul was speaking of the called in his Epistles, remember that in all of his Epistles, Paul’s target audience was professing Christians. Paul made the assumption that those to whom he was speaking had heard and obeyed the universal call, so he dispensed with language that included the unsaved. His ministry in writing the Epistles was the discipleship of the saints, not the salvation of the lost. (His preaching was for the salvation of the lost). Since his target audience was professing Christians, he talks to them as though they are saved, so when he speaks of “the called” he has already assumed that those to whom he is speaking are called and elect.
    I believe that ignoring these distinctions are the cause of much confusion.

    I understand there to be the following nuances to the word “called”.
    1.Those who have been called by God in the universal call to salvation of all of mankind.
    2.Those who have been called by God in the universal call to salvation of all of mankind and have obeyed the calling, and are therefore the elect.
    3.Those who have been called in an elective call, have obeyed the call and are therefore the elect.
    *This third definition is usually the one adhered to by proponents of the predestination argument.

    My understanding of the difference between foreknowledge and foreordination in my relationship to God is this: (in a nutshell)

    God foreordained that those who were/are to be saved are those who believe in the death, burial and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ and are identified with Him in His death, burial and resurrection. They walk in the newness of life, having repented of their sins and sinful life and lifestyle prior to salvation. These saved persons will live with Him in eternity. (This covers the “who”).

    God foreordained that those who are/will be lost are those who do not repent of their sins, who do not believe in the death, burial and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ and who are willingly disobedient and who continually walk in sin; these lost ones will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. (This covers the “who”)

    Heaven and the Lake of Fire are both foreordained for the saved and the lost respectively. (This covers the “what”).

    Since God is omniscient, He foreknew every one of His creatures. He foreknew who would be lost and who would be saved. He knew beforehand which of His creatures to whom He gave freewill would choose to repent and believe and obey and who would not. He did not decree that “Karen will be saved,” or that Karen will not be saved,” imposing His will upon my will, but He knew, even before He created me whether I would believe or not and made me anyway. And He incorporated me and my belief or unbelief into His plan. If I believe, my “fate” (for want of a better word), has been foreordained, and if I do not believe, my “fate” has been foreordained.

    How it must break His heart when He knits one in the womb of his mother whom He knows will turn out to be a vessel for destruction and dishonor, who will choose not to believe, who will choose to be disobedient, who will choose to sin and not repent, who will spend eternity in the lake of fire which was foreordained for all the lost; but not before all things are accomplished according to His plan. He has woven even the lost into His plan.

    In reviewing this definition, it is noteworthy that the negative aspect is not mentioned in the use of the word “foreknow.” One reason for this, I believe is context. Remembering Paul’s intended audience, he was writing to professing believers. Because of this, one can assume that the lost were really a non-issue in what Paul had to say regarding this topic. He was speaking only to what pertained to the professing Christians to whom he was writing, which is why, in my opinion the converse application to the lost is conspicuously absent. He was discipling the believers so in this context, the lost were not his concern. In this context, just as in Paul’s writings “called” seems to be equivalent to “chosen,”
    It appears also that “foreknew” is equivalent to “foreordained” or “predestined.”

    Since God is omniscient, we can assume that He has foreknown (known beforehand) both the saved and the lost from the foundation of the world. He knows His creatures, and both the saved and the lost have been created by Him.

    more next post.

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  60. If we are all predestined one way or another then why witness and when you do witness, can you tell the person that God loves them and has prepared a place them, because it they are not predestined for salvation than you are lying to them. Also how do you know you are among the elect?

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  62. We are commanded to witness, it is both a privilege and a command. By God’s grace he includes us (and tells us) that believing comes by the preaching of the Word. In sharing my faith, I often assume everyone’s predestined for heaven and will have ears to hear (though I know that is not true — but I also have no idea who will or will not be saved). We don’t know who will be saved and who won’t be saved.

    You know if you’re among the elect if you believe and trust in Jesus as savior and Lord — looking for the outworking (sanctification) of that faith in your life, though still scarred by sin on this side of eternity. There are warning passages in scripture about this that all believers should take to heart (and those who don’t believe typically don’t worry much about that). Believers are assured of their salvation and will persevere.

    And I think the Apostle Paul actually anticipated some of these questions about God’s justice or injustice to us in Romans 20-21: “… Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”

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  63. I’m going to live life dangerously and throw in a comment here about predestination without having read most of the comments on this thread. 😉 A little food for thought for you, if you will, that you can chew on while I’m at church for Lenten services this evening.

    My church hasn’t said it quite like this, but when I read a verse-by-verse commentary on Romans chapters 1-8, the author (not affiliated with the synod to which I belong) spoke of Romans 8:29 in a way I had never thought of or been taught.

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    What has God predestined? …he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son… In other words, those whom God foreknew were predestinated to be conformed, not predestinated to be saved. The author says, “This is about ultimate triumph, not justification, about the ultimate image of the saved, not who will be saved.”

    from Romans 1-8 Verse By Verse, by Michael Pearl

    Be back later. 🙂

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  67. The suggestion has been made that God foresees who would choose him, and then elected and saved them on that basis. That raises a question: what was it that make those who chose God choose God? As Cheryl implied, it wouldn’t make sense for the answer to be “better preachers.” That would leave the same charge against God that he is unjust–for what a ridiculous reason to leave some condemned.

    Is the difference between those who choose and those who reject God something *in those persons?* What is it that the choosers have that the rejecters don’t? More wisdom? More humility? Something else *in themselves*? Who really suggests that the ultimate determiner of one’s salvation is the person him or herself? I think we can confidently say that *the Bible* doesn’t suggest that at all.

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  68. Good discussion, many of you hit on points I didn’t have time for today. To me, the doctrines of grace are so clear — and so consistent with the character of God revealed throughout Scripture — that it’s hard for me to understand how Arminianism ever got such a foothold in modern-day Christianity.

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  69. RE: QoD- I believe in predestination and the sovereignty of God. As for the end times, I remember Keith Green saying, “Pray for pre- and prepare for post.” As for me, I am pan-millennial. It will all pan out in the end. As I said, God is sovereign and only He knows the end, so why argue over something that none of us can know with 100% accuracy?

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  70. And on a lighter note- Tonight as we got ready for supper that reminded D3 of the song form Pirates of the Carribean about wanting to be a pirate. I told her she wouldn’t like the life since she would be too busy to tweet and chat on her computer. Then, I thought of a funny: Twitter for pirates! Of course, each tweet would be allowed 145 characters. The extra five would be so they could type “Arrr!” each time.

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  73. Peter,

    “Tonight as we got ready for supper that reminded D3 of the song form Pirates of the Carribean about wanting to be a pirate. I told her she wouldn’t like the life since she would be too busy to tweet and chat on her computer.”

    I’m afraid the info you gave her is not accurate Peter. She can have all the time she wants to tweet and chat, if she’s the right kind of pirate.

    This kind. 🙂

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  77. Reblogging! IPad typing by a very tired person.

    Read Rilla years ago. I’ll look at it again. I’d already contemplated having my characters run into a Dr. Blythe . . .

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  79. AJ — Loved the Piano Guys video, as always. 🙂

    Ree — Thank you for your witnessing tips and the reminder to dig deeper into the scriptures. Always good advice.

    Linda — Thanks for mentioning The Mormon War. I looked it up at Amazon and started reading a little to see what it was about. Looks interesting so far. I may try at some point to work it into the conversation I’m having with Eve.

    AnnMS — Good questions of the day!

    Adios — You got me wishing for an ocean-front retreat room right now. 🙂

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