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Our Daily Thread 9-24-12

Good morning.

This is the Daily thread, talk about whatever you’d like.

Quote of the Day

“It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as  it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the  world.”

Thomas Jefferson

73 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 9-24-12”

  1. It’s a chilly 43 degrees in Hendersonville this morning.
    I’m just waiting for ol’ slowpoke to get ready to go to the Y.
    We won’t leave before it gets daylight.

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  2. It’s cold here too Chas,

    We actually had some frost. I went outside when my wife left for work. I had shorts on. Had. I fixed that, and have on jeans now.

    😦

    And no, I am NOT turning on the heat yet. I refuse.

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  3. Kim, that was a nice video about the young lady. Very courageous. She doesn’t look like a cancer patient. You may have mentioned her before, but, like Darby, I missed it. What is her prognosis?

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  6. Chas, at first they thought is was Stage 4 colon cancer. Now they think the primary site was her ovaries and that it is Stage 3 ovarian cancer. They are taking any good news they can get. Several organs have been removed and they think the cancer was contained in the stomach cavity. She will start chemo soon. Lot’s of people are praying for her and a miracle.

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  8. 35 degrees here – I’m going to have to start wearing a jacket when I walk the dog at 6 a.m. But it’s supposed to get up to 73 degrees later. Hard to decide which to dress for – and as I’ve only been at this job three weeks, I don’t know yet what to expect the office temperature to be at different times of year.

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  10. I jumped the gun (good way to hurt myself) on Alternatate Question of the Day, so I am requesting (only if you want to) more answers. Christianity is probably most popular religion in the world. Why is it so popular?

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  14. Remember I told you a couple of weeks ago that youngest GD was pregnant?
    She was, as Elvera says, “wound up”.
    Turns out, she isn’t pregnant. Miss diagnosis by herself and doctor.
    She was “spotting” as Elvera says, she went to the doctor.
    She didn’t lose a baby, she never was pregnant.
    They are ok, and”still trying”.

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  15. My clock tells me it is 77 in the house right now; my car told me it was 68 outside. We don’t hear our house with anything but the occasional fire in the fireplace, but that won’t happen till November probably. Random, your wife would love it down here. We don’t have AC either.

    AQoD: When I was living in an atheist household and writing resarch papers on the five major religions of the world (for a metally gifted program at a public high school) Christianity intrigued me, as did Judaism, because of the concept of a personal God. Like Chas said, a God who cares. What also made Christianity stand alone was in all the other religions there was great striving to be good, do good and thereby reach God. Christianity was the only relgion where God comes down into His broken creation and fixes us Himself. Through a human so that as humans we can grow back into who God intended us to be all along. It was a fascinating story to me intellectually. Sort of like the Myth of myths, the best one I’d ever heard. Then I had a very real encounter with the Persoanl God Himself. And that was irresistable.

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  16. I cried when I watched that video of Nicole. What love surrounds her! I was blessed to hear her sing. I have that song on a CD and now will always think of her when I hear it.

    I agree with what all the others have said about MY Personal Lord, JESUS and the Triune GOD which is unlike any other god. He stands alone as truth. He shares His love for each of us in His own individually directed ways.

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  17. Random’s QoD: I agree with what others have put here about the unique appeal of Christianity with its concepts of love, forgiveness, generosity and free, personal access to God. So, the high numbers of ‘Christians’ in statistics include the “birds of the air” predicted by Christ – freeloaders seeking the benefits of Christianity without commiting to Christianity’s Lord.
    “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
    Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.” (Matthew 13:31-32)

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  18. Christianity is far from being merely popular. As KBells remarked it is the truth of Christ, a divine being who came to earth and revealed the truth of both moral Law and Gospel. Those who stay within its moral bounds are capable of living a rich and joyful life.

    Those fools who are agnostic or atheist suffer the illusion that they have escaped the oppression of religion through a life of personal autonomy that often ends in tragic failure and a lack of any sense of transcendental meaning or purpose.

    The very question as to why Christianity is “popular” entirely misses the point.

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  19. Just got an email advising me of great tweets from Donna, the White House and four others.

    She’s hiding her light under a bushel . . .

    We’re getting our deer-killing pool replastered today and who would have guessed how many choices there are for color–and what the final ramifications are?

    Of course I won’t know how the color looks until the pool is filled and then it will be too late to change anything, sigh.

    BTW, several neighbors were completely indignant with us when we drained the pool to have this repair work done.

    “Do you know how expensive that water is?” one neighbor demanded.

    Uh, yes, but it was the original water–it’s been in there 30 years!

    The six-year-old next door came over wearing rubber boots and carrying a boat made of tin foil. “Can I play in your water?”

    I’m still laughing at the image of him setting the little boat in the runoff stream and than dashing down the street as the boat bobbed away. I’m glad someone got some pleasure out of all that expensive water disappearing into the storm drain!

    This is the final house repair item. I’m sorry American economy–which we now realizing we’ve been keeping afloat from just about the time President Obama took office–but we’re done. Someone else will have to keep people employed. There’s nothing else to be fixed at our house and we’re tapped out.

    Of course we could raise the building and start over again.

    I hope those of you in California have earthquake insurance . . .

    We’re well overdue. 😦

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  20. Popular? Really?

    Hmmm. Where I live — and in the circles in which I move — Christianity is distinctly UNpopular. And I suspect it will continue to become increasingly unpopular in the U.S., following the trend already set in Europe.

    Let’s fact it, Random’s on the side of popular culture. Not us.

    Any of you watch Masterpiece Theater last night & the episode of Wallander? Good program, but last night’s edition featured more nutty, anti-gay Christian bad guys who (gasp) read the Bible

    (When he was looking in the good book for clues, Wallander our hero had to be coached by a co-worker that Revelation — they said Revelations — was “in the back” of the volume; indeed, who knew?).

    Interestingly, among the characters (this is set in Sweden) was a minister who said he’d spent a month in jail for preaching from the pulpit against homosexuality. Hate speech.

    Sigh. Crazy people. If only we could rid the world of all that, no?

    The rise of Christianity — in sometimes the most unlikely places, like China, where followers are not popular at all — is because it is true, not because it’s particularly “popular,” heaven knows.

    I’m jealous of all your cold, fosty morning weather, although it seems cooler here than it has in a number of days. So far, anyway. Let’s hope it sticks.

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  21. Wow, me and the White House tweeting away. There you go. 😉

    My lawn is pretty much dead out front. Could have used some of that water from Michelle’s pool.

    So now do I re-seed with grass again or put in some other kind of ground cover that’s more drought resistant? I can’t really hire a landscape person and my gardeners wouldn’t do anything like that.

    Sprucing things up for the earthquake …

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  23. Ha — stolen car notice from our area today:

    1996 Honda Accord with 17 inch wheels and pink lug nuts. Vehicle has a custom pearl paint job that looks black at night and green during the day. If spotted please notify local police.

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  27. There’s something to be said for taking out the lawn and xeriscaping. There’s a lot of that done here and in Santa Monica. Succulents, in particular, are such interesting looking plants. Wish I lived closer . . . I’d help.

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  28. OK, Photoguy, I wasn’t paying attention to your gravatar when I asked you what you like to photograph…I’m guessing probably, um, birds? 😉 Anything (or anyone) else?

    Sorry, you can tell it’s a Monday. “Monday, Monday…” 🙂

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  29. Well, I’ll tell you what I wished I could have photographed this morning: the first mink I’ve ever seen. I heard a rustle in the grass/plants at the edge of the road, and I stopped to see if I could see the animal.

    After that, a splash in what is left of the creek right there. I thought maybe a frog, but if so it was a big one.

    Then up the other side ran a mink, dark brown or black. I would have had to have my camera out (I didn’t), since it was only in sight a second or two, but I did get a clear, full view of it.

    But I got a good photo of river otters (one of them with a fish) last week, and such photo opportunities don’t tend to come along every week for a non-professional. (I do very much wish I had my camera with me when a mother opossum loaded up with babies waddled across the road in front of me a few months ago. If I’d thought of it, I would have taken out my cell phone and at least taken a picture on it. She was slow, fully loaded down, so I would have had a chance.)

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  30. Yesterday morning things were a little rough with 5th Arrow before we went to church, and I was nearly in tears, already doing battle in my mind with something else entirely. Then at church, not long into the service, 5th Arrow started in with another behavior we’ve been trying to curb, and I was beginning to get very frustrated with him, and my husband could see that I was.

    Fifth Arrow (younger son), who was sitting between my husband and me, left his spot to go sit by our older son. I was trying to keep young son to stay in his place, but he took off anyway. Then an amazing thing happened. My husband, instead of trying to stop him, just put his arm around me and pulled me close to his side and held me tight.

    I tell you, I just about lost it, I felt so loved right then. He knew I was having a bad day, and it was an “I love you” that spoke louder than if he had said it out loud. My husband rarely shows me affection publicly, though I know he loves me, so for him to embrace me like that just then was so unexpected and exactly what I needed.

    I am so thankful to God for the gift of my husband to me. And I’m still learning after 26 years of marriage why we should never take any of God’s good gifts for granted.

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  33. Has anyone seen NJL lately?
    I sent Sawgunner a link in his e-mail, but I haven’t seen him.
    There aren’t many comments on the World blog. I’m a member and visit occasionally, but have only commented a couple of times.
    Not much interaction there. I have seen Sawgunner there.

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  34. Sawgunner posted on this site fairly recently (maybe a week or a little more ago?), but his comments were on an older thread than the day he posted. At least one of his posts was as “Anonymous”, but he identified himself as Sawgunner after that, if I remember right. I don’t remember which thread he was on, but he was here one day that I recall.

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  35. As far as NJL, I think she had some computer issues to work out or something before she’d be back here.

    Chas or anyone who has commented at World this month, is it difficult to register/comment/etc. over there? I have a subscription, but I haven’t tried commenting. It sounded at first that there were a lot of technical difficulties, so I didn’t bother. Have they worked out those issues?

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  36. 6 Arrows, I have had no trouble at all making comments at World. I continue to comment mostly on Andree’s posts. I see a few other people over there but not many. I think those who write would like to receive some more feedback.

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  37. You need a number from the magazine cover to register.
    After registering, commenting is easy. However as Janice says, there isn’t much dialogue.

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  39. We just had a lovely visit with number one son and number one daughter. A bit of a surprise but very nice. At church we had thirteen of our children with us, that was very nice as well.

    Nice story, Six Arrows, it is nice to get those reminders at especially needy times.

    Side question, do people generally let their children sit between them? I don’t remember ever doing that but have seen it done. Do you find it helpful if you do?

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  41. Thank you for all the comments about the popularity of Christianity. Fair warning, unless you are very intelligent and quite versed in tearing apart the flaws of atheistic nonsense (that means you are competent – I am in charge of nonsense), do not read the following.

    As an atheistic copycat, it is only to be expected that I will (in a futile way) copy the failing strategies of false religions and the successful strategies of the only true religion).

    1. People don’t want to die. (Except for suicidal people, that is.) Most religions tell people they won’t die. But most religions are flawed. For example, what’s the point of reincarnation if you don’t remember who you were in a past life?

    Atheist bogus strategy. Just tough it out. That’s all there is. Deal with it. Flaw: Obviously something as wonderful as I am (well, maybe you; not me) is not going to die.

    2. Life isn’t fair. Good people sometimes suffer. Bad people sometime prosper. Most religions tell people their God eventually balances the books. But other gods are notoriously bad bookkeepers. In fact, one would-be god has been sentenced to Hell forever, or at least until he figures out how to pay back the money he embezzled from Heaven.

    Atheist bogus strategy. Just make life fair here on earth. Flaw: It’s been tried. It was called Communism. Nuff said.

    3. Human beings are social creatures. We like to gather with like-minded humans. Most religions have places of worship, rites and rituals, music, mutual assistance, funeral services, etc. However, once you have sung Christian hymns, attended Christian funerals, and observed Christian charity in action, you realize all other religions are bogus, pallid, unsatisfying imitations.

    Atheist bogus strategy. Hang out with other atheists. Flaw: After you blow out your eardrums with bad loud music, fornicate, get drunk, get stoned, overeat, and murder a few people, at some point you end up lamenting, “Is that all there is to do around here?.

    4. Human beings are innovative and adaptive. When we discover (or even invent) something beneficial and useful, we start using it. When we encounter something useful in use by someone else, we make use of it, perhaps tinkering with it a little to fit our personality and situation. Christianity – attractive for all the reasons listed above – has been adopted and adapted at various times, in various places, and in various styles all over the world. (Any resemblance between Christianity and earlier religions is purely coincidental, a delusion, or a snare.) (Any allegation that Christianity suffered from wicked flaws (e.g., inquisitions, witch tortures, genocides, etc. are erroneous, perhaps perpetrated by false Christians, and anyway, the Communists were worse.)
    Other religions, however, have perpetrated tortures, sacrifices, abuse, and other atrocities.

    Atheist bogus strategy: Deny and cover up atheist atrocities; promise a perfect world that never comes in this life. Flaw: Things never get better in this life. For example, Christians are often persecuted; liberals take over governments, etc..

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  43. Sigh….I got emails telling me about new posts here again today, and the second question [re: such emails] has disappeared again. I do not usually bother to log out, as I am the only person who uses this computer. It doesn’t seem logical that something would change when I haven’t logged out, but maybe it does???

    Am I the only one getting those emails?

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  44. Good Monday everyone! It’s cloudy…a front is moving in..hoping for rain..or snow..who cares…moisture is what we need! Flying into Denver yesterday, I was aghast at the sight of the brown dry land below us…I’ve never seen it so dry.
    I wouldn’t classify Christianity as “popular”…those who are drawn to Jesus are drawn to Him by the power of the Holy Spirit…His grace and mercy extended to us is given freely…there is nothing we could possibly do to deserve it….

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  45. Once again, Random, I ignored your warning (this time about some supposedly necessary prerequisite skill and intelligence) threw caution to the wind, and read your nonsense, anyway.

    But since you don’t seem to be critiquing Christianity, but rather some other worldviews, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be defending. Still, since I seem to possess some pathological desire for disputation, I do have something to say. I noticed that you seem as confused about what other religions teach as you do about Christianity. You asked “What’s the point of reincarnation since we don’t remember our past lives.” But for those who believe in karma and reincarnation, a conscious memory of one’s past lives would be irrelevant.

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  47. Kay, I’m not getting emails, but I log out every time I leave.
    I could be wrong because I’m assuming that it’s the same as phone or radio waves.
    But I assume that it’s the same as leaving the phone off the hook.
    There is only so much bandwidth, and your provider changes for bandwidth. i.e. faster speed requires more bandwidth, as does continued use.
    I’m more familiar with the radio waves. There is only so much radio frequency available and the FCC allocates radio frequencies according to availability.
    It’s all used. There are radio waves from almost the entire spectrum being used continuously. This has certainly changed exponentially since I was involved in it in the early eighties.

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  49. Kay,

    I’m not sure why that is happening. I have both boxes always, and don’t know if anyone else is having an issue or not. I haven’t heard any. For most, once the boxes are unchecked it’s not been an issue. I always log out too.

    Anybody else have this issue, or know why it would happen?

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  50. Being able to keep people plugged into life support is a very sad thing. Over this past weekend, we have been talking with two of our grown children about our young friend who will be removed from life support tomorrow. One of the grown is an ICU charge nurse so she has seen it in action. It is very difficult on everybody but daughter explains that anytime one is put on life support, there are lifelong ramifications, even if one lives another twenty years without it. But they are quite able to keep dead people “alive” at great cost so family members can fly in from Timbuktu to watch the person breathe his or her last. And that is a hard thing for the staff as they know it is over and the hospital will be absorbing the cost that could be going to others. Difficult difficult difficult.

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  53. If I log out, close WV, close Firefox and then reverse the procedure, I get the second question. Not so if I don’t close Firefox. So later tonight, I will log out when I shut down, and see if I get email tomorrow anyway.

    It’s not as if the emails are doing harm, I certainly can delete them. My original thought was to save the sender a bit of bandwidth.

    From today’s Twitter feed: In three words I can sum up everything I’ve learned about life. It goes on. Robert Frost [Tweeted by Stuart Spivey]

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  54. Janice and Chas, thanks for the information about commenting at World.

    Kay, I don’t log in or out here at all. I just type my comments and hit “Post Comment”. I am the most technologically unsavvy person there is, so I don’t know if my comment is helpful to you or not. Feel free to ignore it if it means nothing. 😉

    Mumsee, your side question about children sitting between their parents at church: we never have given the matter much thought. We just sit down in whatever order we happen to walk in to church, and most of the time my husband and I aren’t next to each other because there are more kids than us. 😉 Not very systematic are we. Although, since sitting next to hubby yesterday was so pleasant, perhaps we will be more intentional now about letting that become a regular thing. 🙂

    NancyJill, nice to see you back! How is your mom?

    Donna, I checked out an Anonymous 4 CD from the library today entitled A Lammas Ladymass: 13th and 14th Century English Chant and Polyphony. I’m going to put it on to play pretty soon to wind down for the night.

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  55. Third Arrow has been volunteering with a ministry for developmentally disabled adults for a few years. She helped out on a limited basis the first two years, when she was in the 7th and 8th grades (all children of our congregation are encouraged to help out with this ministry when they are those ages, and are scheduled for service on specific dates). She enjoyed the experience so much that she voluntarily continued serving the ministry last year on a much more regular basis. The volunteers meet with those being served by the ministry on most Mondays from September through May each year, and a new “year” of classes has begun again.

    Today one of the adult volunteers asked my daughter how old she was, and when she replied, “Fifteen”, the lady said, “Oh, you’ve been with us for so long I thought you were 20 by now!”

    Of course daughter ate that right up! Some year down the road she won’t want to be thought of as five years older than she is, but she sure enjoys the thought now! 🙂

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  56. 6 Arrows, as far as I can remember, we have made an effort to sit together, never letting children sit between us. They try, but that is not allowed for us. We sometimes have little people on our laps or on the floor between us, but not between us. I think that helps them to have a sense of security, they like it once they realize it is the way it is. I just wondered if people thought it was more effective to separate and surround.

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  57. Pauline, she was talking about physical effects. She says our lungs are not designed to run on machines and it causes long term damage. Same with other helps we use medically. That is not the same as having an oxygen source, by the way.

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  61. Ree: . . . But since you don’t seem to be critiquing Christianity, but rather some other worldviews I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be defending.

    I am not trying to “critique” Christianity. I am not asking you to “defend” it. I believe Christianity works for you. You do not seem to believe a different world view can work for me. The question I am trying to raise is what basis is there for people of different world views living together in a peaceful and mutually beneficial manner?

    The world is full of people with different “world views.” As these different world views have existed for as long as thousands of years, without human beings coming to any kind of consensus, and as these varying world views have often led to intense and dangerous conflict, the problem seems to be: how do people with different world views, learn to live in peace, especially when our technological capabilities to destroy each other grow increasingly powerful?

    As far as I can see, the only solution offered by many people is Believe as I do. Then our conflicts and our problems will be solved.

    This “solution” has never worked in the past (in any consistent and reliable way). I see no sign it is going to start working now.

    I am trying to tread very carefully here. I suspect that most or all (including the moderator) are looking for the slightest reason or justification for banning me from this forum. I am trying not to make it easy for anyone who wants that to happen. It is very difficult for me to put myself into your world view, but I am making an effort to do so, as this seems to me to be a start on a way for different world views to co-exist.

    Again, I return to Roger Williams. When his fellow Puritans encountered Indians, apparently the only responses they could make was to a) take their land and/or b) convert the Indians to Christianity. Roger learned the Indians’ languages and world views, paid them for the land he settled, and as much as possible, managed to live in peace with them. He was a realistic and practical man; when conflicts arose with some tribes (through no faults of Roger’s) he picked up his musket and defended himself.

    I genuinely respect your intelligence and knowledge. I am enjoying our conversations. I sincerely believe you are incorrect about the nature of reality; again, is there any basis for our conversation besides trying to convert me? I don’t make foolish boasts, so I don’t say “You can’t possibly convert me,” but it is very, very unlikely, and not a good basis for a relationship.

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  62. I agree with you, Mumsee, that there is probably a sense of security children derive from their parents sitting together without the children between them. It’s good for kids to know that the primary relationship in the family unit is the spousal one. When that relationship is strong, it strengthens the unity of the entire family, I think; when it’s weak, a child-centered family is often the result, and there’s no security in that.

    On the other hand, I think there may be times where it’s more effective, as you say, to “separate and surround” when sitting in worship together. Probably in cases where there are a lot of young children born close together without any older children to assist, for example. That hasn’t been the case in my family, though, as my six kids were born over the span of 17 years and 5 months, the closest two consecutive babies being slightly less than 2 years and 9 months apart (4th & 5th Arrows). The rest of them were 3-4 years from one to the next, so I never had a bunch close together without having older children already able to help out.

    I wish we had thought more (and earlier) about matters like this (emphasizing the spousal relationship over the parent-child one), but it’s not too late to implement, I guess, still having young kids that can grow up seeing a different picture than what their older siblings grew up with. God is good in His mercy and grace.

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  64. There are a lot of things I would have liked to have known but I suspect things are working according to plan and by learning things in His time and way, it is working out fine.
    Now, i am trying to post from a different device. Will it work? WI’ll we know it is me? Why won,t it let me spell will correctly? Whype does it keep telling me to say words that are different from what I want? BiZaire. What????

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  65. As Christians, we are told:

    “Live in harmony with one another … If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all … Love your enemy … “

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  66. Ree: . . . you seem as confused about what other religions teach as you do about Christianity. You asked “What’s the point of reincarnation since we don’t remember our past lives.” But for those who believe in karma and reincarnation, a conscious memory of one’s past lives would be irrelevant.

    Again, I think you misunderstand. First, I really do not believe in any religious belief. I think religion exists because it meets certain psychological and social needs for human beings. The number one psychological need humans have is not to die. All sane people know our physical body dies. All any human being really has is our sense of self, what is often called in Western culture our “mind” or our “ego.” Western religions describe this as our “soul,” and imagine that our “self” or “soul” (whatever we call it) continues to exist after our physical self dies.

    I don’t think this is true. I tried to put this as gently as I could, but the reality for an atheist is just to face total death and tough it out. Efforts to tell me otherwise get nowhere. Again, if we genuinely differ so greatly on such a difficult issue, what is the basis (while we are still both alive) for our continued co-existence in this life?

    A few years ago, I read a book (whose title I don’t recall) trying to evaluate if there is any empirical evidence for life after death. (The author concluded, persuasively to me, that there is none.)

    Back to reincarnation. The book mostly evaluated western science and studies of death. However, it had one chapter on India and Hinduism, probably the main religion espousing reincarnation. (I am not an expert on India or Hinduism.) The author said that in India people frequently try to verify reincarnation, and identify past lives (similar to the occasional claims of “past lives” in American such as the “Bridey Murphy” craze in the 1950s (leading to a best-selling book and a movie). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridey_Murphy If you read the article, you will see that the Bridey Murphey story was pretty well debunked. The chapter in the death book investigated Indian claims of verified past lives in India and found them unconvincing.

    I am trying no to offend Christians (while firmly sticking to my conviction there is no objective truth to Christianity), so I am not using the “b” word in regard to Christianity. However, I think 1) reincarnation is bunk.

    My point is 1) we don’t want to die and 2) even people who claim to believe in reincarnation seek to discover that there “ego,” “mind,” “soul” – whatever we call it, does not die.

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  67. Donna, I think “love thy enemy” is an inspiring belief. My quick response and question are:

    1) In practice, on a daily basis, “love they enemy” presents many practical difficulties.

    2) Does not believing as you do, make me (or any other non-Christian) an “enemy?”

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  68. Nancy Gill: I wouldn’t classify Christianity as “popular”…those who are drawn to Jesus are drawn to Him by the power of the Holy Spirit…His grace and mercy extended to us is given freely…there is nothing we could possibly do to deserve it…

    I used the word “popular” in a very plain and mundane way. There are more people who identify themselves as Christians in the world today than identify themselves with any other religious belief. As far as I can tell, this is a plain, ordinary empirical fact.

    I think I understand the theological point you make, and I try to make sense of it, as much as i can, without believing it is “true” in any way that is convincing to me.

    Again, referring to Donna’s comment, which I don’t think is intended to be offensive, and I don’t take offense at it, but if my inability and or refusal to believe as you do make me an “enemy?”

    If someone says to me, something along the lines of, “You are an enemy and I love you” this makes it difficult for me to see this as the start of a great relationship.

    Most of the Christians on worldmagblog (and I assume here” say something like I don’t want to turn America into a theocracy.

    Secular people become nervous when they come across the following groups and labels:

    Christian Theocracy, Christian Reconstructionism, Christian Dominionism, Dominion Theology, and Theonomy.

    I won’t make an accusation that this is what anyone here wants, but do you understand that some of the phrases used in comments make secular people (such as me) uneasy?

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  69. If anyone comments on this (tonight, or tomorrow), I will read it with appreciation and attention. Again, the very basic question in my mind is: if we really don’t agree on our view of basic reality, what is the basis for our living in peace and productive harmony?

    I will have a less stressful AQOD tomorrow, assuming, as always, that I wake up in the morning.

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  70. Random…you have made this point a couple of times today: My point is 1) we don’t want to die…
    I take a different view on this assertion….I most certainly have no problem with dying…in fact…I look forward to the day. It will be then, when I will have eternal life, in a world with no pain, no sorrow. And, I will be in the presence of my Creator and Saviour. I have been with many dying patients….I have seen the peace filled countenance upon the face of a fellow believer as she drew her last breath here on earth…I have seen my own father take his last breath…he was ready to go…there was no fear….he knew in whom he believed and was assured of where he was going after his journey here on this earth. I have also witnessed the deaths of those who had no hope…one man in particular was angry, fearful and fretful. He happened to proclaim to be an atheist…he did not want to die…..

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  71. Well, we live in a world of plural world views; however, unless a world view seriously attempts to destroy the views and the existence of others of others, there is no good reason that there cannot be reasonable peace and harmony among civilized peoples.

    Of course, nations and religions will inevitably compete with one another causing tensions between them, though among civilized peoples these tensions may be managed with honest and firm diplomacy.

    Just now in the world the radical Islamists are making a serious militant attempt to impose Shari’ah law on the world. They continue to attack the West, especially America, and have done some serious damage including the savagery of 9/11.

    While a few individual Christians want to militantly proselytize like the radical Islamists, they are regarded by sensible Christians as deluded and marginal oddballs. There is no passage in the Old or New Testament that advocates militant proselytization of anyone, though over the years Jews and Christians have evolved sophisticated just war principles.

    In the twentieth-crntury the worst savagery came from Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, all of whom were atheists who despised and rejected any religion other than their own ideologies.

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  72. Nancyjill,

    Good point, but I think that when Random says that we don’t want to die, complete extinction is inherent in the definition of dying that he’s using. His operating assumption is that, because we don’t want extinction, we invent religion to convince ourselves that we live on after death.

    Of course, he has no basis for his assumption that physical death means extinction of self. He takes it on faith, just as we take our belief in the resurrection on faith. The big difference, though, is that our faith has a firm foundation, while his is just wild conjecture. It seems to be grounded in the belief that trusting in anything requires empirical proof, but this belief fails at the most basic level since it’s self refuting–it isn’t (and cannot be) grounded in empirical proof itself.

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  73. True, Sails. I often see cars with that silly “coexist” bumper sticker containing symbols from many religions. But we are co-existing, aren’t we? And as you said, as far as I can tell, it’s only Islam that teaches its adherents to kill the ones who won’t submit. And I suspect the faithful Islamists aren’t much persuaded by bumper stickers.

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