This is the Daily News thread. Talk about whatever is news to you.
I’d like to think this is for some noble reason. I’d like to, but I don’t. To me it seems to be a “this is an embarrassment, so we don’t want to talk about it anymore” kinda thing. Am I just being too cynical?
From http://www.foreignpolicy.com/
“The State Department told reporters Friday afternoon that it won’t answer any more questions about the Sept. 11 attack on the consulate in Benghazi that killed four Americans until the investigation into the incident is complete.
“I’m going to frustrate all of you, infinitely, by telling you that now that we have an open FBI investigation on the death of these four Americans, we are not going to be in a position to talk at all about what the U.S. government may or may not be learning about how any of this happened –not who they were, not how it happened, not what happened to Ambassador Stevens, not any of it — until the Justice Department is ready to talk about the investigation that’s its got,” State Department spokeswoman Victorian Nuland told reporters late Friday afternoon.
“So I’m going to send to the FBI for those kinds of questions and they’re probably not going to talk to you about it,” she said.
All aspects of the attack, including what led up to it, its causes, the identity of the perpetrators, and the circumstances surrounding the death of Amb. Chris Stevens and the other three Americans,are off limits for reporters.”
Read more here
Wandering Views 
Food for thought: Over the last 10 years, Russia has fairly consistently opposed the overthrow of Arab dictators such as Hussein, Khadafi and Assad. They have done so for a variety of selfish reasons, including historical alliances and a desire not to have their own Muslim population stirred up. However, it is worth considering whether over that time period Russia, rather than the US, has actually promoted peace and stability in the Middle East.
LikeLike
There are no good guys there.
It’s convenient to have an investigation.
I’ve come to believe that it’s a tool the administration uses to avoid discussion of a difficult topic.
How do I get my name back? I can’t go by g24e7ed159f, for short.
LikeLike
RickyWeaver posts an interesting thought. Something I have been thinking over the last few days. I have a good friend who lived in Poland, Kuwait, and spent a lot of time in the Middle East. I have asked her to get back to me with her thoughts of what happened this past week.
LikeLike
Aj
On your OP, I’m saying this not just as a person taking the company line, but as a matter of my personal opinion. Toria Nuland like all of the rest us want these killers found and want the FBI to be successful. For the investigation to be successful letting details out of what is known or unknown for that matter could cause trails to go cold. State PA is being extra careful — good. Once FBI has finished investigating and the US has taken whatever necessary shot to get the culprits, then there should be a full press brief and there will of course be the endless hearings on the Hill so the State Department (one of the Hill’s favorite targets) can be criticized at length.
Ricky and Kim,
The argument can certainly be made that supporting the local dictator promotes stability. Although if the public is ever actually able to get together and overthrow the dictator, it can be messy for a long time. When the USSR left Eastern Europe, it turned out ok for Czechoslovakia which had the velvet break up and became two countries. The result was much less good in Yugoslavia where long held ethnic divisions and the sudden loss of a unifying brutal power led to years of civil war.
My mideast expert friends (ME is not my area of expertise) tell me that most of the Arab societies comprise tribal and ethnic divisions and that the clash between clans becomes civil war without a unifying figure. When you overlay on top of that, the selection of rulers by the west back in late 1800s and early 1900s there is a perception that the rulers have been held in power by the west — and in particular by the US as the leader of the west.
There’s another general issue with support for dictators (aside from the human rights issues — I think we just leave US human rights and democracy policy aside in this discussion) and that is that dictators are not wholly reliable as partners — they can as easily welcome foreign investment as nationalize everything. Rules for foreign corporations vary in dictatorships and can make it difficult for corporations to do business. Similarly, despots can change their mind about who they do and don’t like pretty rapidly which can provoke a competition from other governments for trade rights to energy and minerals.
In part you are evoking the argument between foreign policy realists/pragmatists and foreign policy internationalists/interventionists. It’s a discussion worth having thought there are not that many realists around these days.
Pretty good short blog piece on that can be found here:
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/04/30/what_if_realists_ran_us_foreign_policy_a_top_ten_list
LikeLike
The discussion of “democracy” in the Middle East has no meaning. There is no concept of democracy there, and the Koran doesn’t permit it. There are about three options.
1. Rule by a dictator, or the military.
2. Tribal rule such as they had/have in Afghanistan.
3. The Caliphate. This is what Iran is pushing for. They believe the Mahdi is imminent and will create a Caliphate from the Phillipines to Morroco. And from there, to the entire world which will be ruled by shirah.
Israel is a bone in the throat of the Muslim nations.
LikeLike
CB’s link, BTW is interesting. Each section becomes a separate subject.
I would say, in light of my comment above, that “nation building” in the middle east is a futile effort.
The European countries should learn a lesson from the Balkans, where two dominant religions try to coexist. Each of which, has it’s own different lifestyle.
LikeLike
CB,
“Once FBI has finished investigating and the US has taken whatever necessary shot to get the culprits, then there should be a full press brief and there will of course be the endless hearings on the Hill so the State Department (one of the Hill’s favorite targets) can be criticized at length.”
Yep. Right have the election I’m sure. How convenient for Obama huh?
LikeLike
Chas
I just don’t believe that democracy is impossible in any given society. I do believe that it is not an easy thing for democracy to take root in societies that have never had limited government and where such concepts are new.
You know the Balkans is kind of interesting on co-existence. It was the Serbian Orthodox vs. Slovenian Catholics/Protestants, Serbian Orthodox vs. Croat Catholics and Serbian Orthodox vs. Bosnian Muslims and Serbian Orthodox vs. Kosovar Muslims. There seems to be one constant in the Balkan picture.
LikeLike
Aj
For one second put all politics aside and focus on the question below as a matter of logic.
When there is a live investigation to determine what happened, are investigators helped or hindered by revealing what they know to the public before they have finished the investigation?
LikeLike
Yes CB, they are helped. However, they still make statements, brief the public on what they can such as progress, and don’t simply say “no comment, we’re not talking about it at all” do they? No, they don’t.
LikeLike
AJ,
Actually, many times they do refer to the responsible agency. If you go back and look at Iraq briefings during combat operations and other FBI investigations (like the USS Cole, for example), you’ll find it is fairly common for State to defer to Defense or Justice as those were the agencies in the lead (DoD in the case of Iraq, DOJ in the case of the Cole investigation).
LikeLike
I remember a statement in the old “Fibber McGee and Molly” program. It was sometime in the late 1940’s. Molly mentioned something always in the paper. Fibber said, “You mean there’s trouble in the Balkans”. It got a laugh, but I didn’t understand why.
I was just a kid.
LikeLike
This is somewhat unusual, but I agree with what the State Department is doing here. It is usually wise not to say too much early in an investigation.
LikeLike
OK, yes I get that they would refer it to the investigating agencies. However, this kind of implies a “Good luck with that” cause it ain’t
happening kinda thing.
“So I’m going to send to the FBI for those kinds of questions and they’re probably not going to talk to you about it,”.
Now there were several different reports as to the name of the director of the idiotic film in question. The US govt has clarified
his name and religous affiliations. Is it too much to expect those responsible for these murders to be named, along with their affiliations
as well? This implies that won’t be forthcoming.
“not who they were, not how it happened, not what happened to Ambassador Stevens, not any of it”
Why? It’s pretty much public info already, except for names, so why not state the obvious? We know what their motivations were. The black flag they
flew after tearing down ours answered that. What do they fear? Further inflaming them? It’s a little late for that.
We supported the Arab Spring, helped plant the seeds. Now we’re reaping the bitter harvest. We supported them, and this is what we get for it.
Religously driven, manufactured outrage, from the jobless minions of the Middle East. All they needed was an excuse. This is a failure on so many
levels by Obama and company. That’s apparent to them, and the reason they seek to ignore it and speak as little details as possible. And most of
the press in this country at least, will happily oblige.
This is on the arrests.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012/09/13/arrests-made-in-deadly-embassy-attack-in-libya/57774256/1
LikeLike
AJ
Can you repaste/format? Kind of hard to figure out if I’m missing snippets at least on my computer part of the text is offscreen.
Thx
LikeLike
I’m trying CB. I have no idea how I did that. 😦
LikeLike
State Department in chaos?
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/09/chaos-at-the-state-dept.php
LikeLike
OK, for some reason the AlJazeera link ran in one looong line and messed it up.
LikeLike
CHAS: To correct your name, click on anybody’s picture, click on “View Complete Profile:” then in the upper right corner you’ll see a tab called “My Account,” click on “Edit Profile,” the third line down is “display name.” Type in your name, then scroll to bottom and click on “Save Profile.”
LikeLike
It’s already 97 degrees in San Marcos at 10:23am, Yesterday it was 103 (my car thermometer hit 109. This is very unusual for SoCal, it generally doesn’t get higher than mid-80s a couple of time a year.
LikeLike
Donna
No, not chaos but there is alot of activity trying to make sure diplomats are safe and figuring out what comes next, chaotic would be more accurate.
It’s what I love about the internet, a journalist says chaos and it gets picked up by a blog and suddenly becomes some kind of news. In any circumstance for any country where 20 some facilities have come under fire, it’s going to be hectic sorting things out and confusing establishing all of the facts in real time. But hey, let’s just start taking shots at State while they are reacting to a crisis and trying to figure out what to do next, because it’s just so easy to armchair quarterback.
AJ
The people with the black flags are not all from the same faction. They don’t socialize at the same places. It’s not so easy to sort out as saying “hey there’s a bad guy”. I find all of the trying to explain the complexities frustrating because there aren’t easy answers and there aren’t easy solutions. And I have friends and colleagues in many of these places who are not safe right now. So I’m fighting a good deal of anger in my reactions.
Think I need to take a break from conversing for a little while so I’ll check back with you guys tomorrow or Monday morning.
LikeLike
I don’t have “my account”, or “edit profile”. I have a “log in” and when I log in, I give user name and a password. I enter “Chas” and it says it’s already taken.
That’s me, of course.
😆
LikeLike
See if this works
LikeLike
Yep
LikeLike
A couple of thoughts: 1. In Illiberal Democracy, Fareed Zakaria made a strong case that economic development and the Rule of Law should preceded democracy for developing countries. 2. Prior to 2003, Neo-cons and others thought a shift to democracy in the Middle East would make Israel more safe since “democracies don’t start wars”. We proved the inaccuracy of that adage by invading Iraq. Over the last 9 years I think we have discovered that many civilian populations in the Middle East are more anti-Semitic than their old dictators.
LikeLike
Well, a little internal chaos wouldn’t be so shocking, really, considering the unfolding mess.
LikeLike
CB,
I have been thinking about how best to respond to you. I understand your concern for those you know who could directly bare the consequences for all this. I think concern for them should be kept in mind by all. I’m not trying to distress you or make you think I don’t care about those in harm’s way. But part of that concern must be asking and getting answers to the questions about what led to it, who is responsible, how can we prevent future incidents, and could this have been prevented? Was there proper security, were warnings ignored (the libyans say they were), and does this reflect shortcomings in our foriegn policy. Those are legitimate questions.
Also, I think it should concern all Americans that our countrymen are in harm’s way, and that it appears so easy to attack them. I am concerned for their security, and I think the only way our govt is forced to do a better job for those public servants is by exposing the glaring inadequacies of their present predicament. It should not be this easy, especially on 9-11, and especially in a country where a religous group now calls the shots, and we know animosity festers just under the surface.
I think this shows many issues that need to be addressed. I think they show many failures in Obama’s version of foriegn affairs. I think it needs to be addressed, and I will. I will try to be delicate with your legitimate concerns about security of personel because I see your point. Also, I respect your opinion on this because you’ve “been there, done that” and I hope you’ll continue to share your thoughts on it. While maintaining necessary secrecy of course on some matters, which by the way is also a good thing.
One last question…..
Are you CIA?
What? I have to ask…….
🙂
LikeLike