I appreciate what you wrote about voting, Kathaleena. And yes, those who don’t cast a vote formally do end up voting anyways.
I thought more about it all and realized that some people may be more inclined to compartmentalize than others. Those who could not vote for Trump because of character are unable to see the good outcomes over the weaknesses of character. I sorta looked at it as there are a lot of nasty players in the political realm and there will not be a wonderfully balanced character who can get the job done. Ben Carson came close and he had been my choice, but that choice went away. In my mind it is a sin not to vote, but others feel it is a sin to vote for someone with what they judge to have unacceptable character traits. We live in a fallen world.
Kathaleena – (re: your comment at the end of yesterday’s thread) There is a line between fatalism and trusting in God’s sovereignty. What DJ and I were describing is the latter, not the former.
There is a verse that says that what is not from faith is sin. For those of us who truly feel we cannot vote for either candidate, to make ourselves vote against our consciences would be sin for us. Whether we vote or not, we leave the results in God’s hands and trust that His will will be done.
Morning! Aj that is just the sweetest photo!! Pure joy with a sense of expectation is show upon both of your expressions. Love that Daddy/Daughter relationship!
Pip is at our Vet and I am so thankful he loves her as much as we do. She will be spay,chipped and he will take a look at her knee while she is under to check out the acl surgery results. Of course I had to stop at PetSmart to get her a coming home pink ball and a new comfy crate pad. Even though I gave her an anti nausea pill before our ride into town she still threw up! Poor thing.
In response to some of the earlier, more serious posts here following others from yesterday:
In my case (and for other believers I know), I can say this was far from a casual, thoughtless or lazy choice. I wrestled over it.
Would I have wrestled even more had I lived in a so-called “swing” state? Probably, but I don’t live in one of those states, far from it. Our state is and was solidly and already in the blue camp. Our Electoral College vote was beyond predictable.
But putting that aside, even had I been in a swing state, I rather doubt my decision would have changed. But I did not arrive at it casually or easily.
We all need to vote our convictions and I trust that all of us here did that.
Simply put and for myself, I came to the conviction that the candidate who seemed closest to my positions on many issues would have been a poor leader and role model for our nation. I saw him as unstable, immature, oddly self-obsessed, lacking in true convictions and understanding (but rather seeking public adoration and support), lacking in wisdom — basically a poor influence in terms of his character and behavior on our nation.
I saw some supporters almost gleefully pick up on this and begin to mimic his actions and words and behavior, holding others who disagreed in contempt. All of this struck me as a dangerous road our nation was being led down.
I believed, and it was my deep conviction, that this candidate would be an unwise and potentially dangerous leader. His behavior after 2020 has only confirmed those earlier assessments for me. I do not regret my actions nor do I consider them as having come from mere laziness or sinfulness. It grieved me. It rather shocked me that I would come to such a decision.
And we should not confuse “fatalism” with what is taught in the Bible as God’s sovereignty. He raises up and removes leaders, but of course we all understand and accept that theologically so I don’t think we need to dwell on that. God’s will is sovereign in all of these things. That’s not fatalism, it’s not throwing our hands up and saying “oh well, it makes no difference what I do.” Far from it.
Yes, we have a responsibility and privilege to vote and God has provided that for us. We should be always thankful for that. Our actions are important, just as our prayers are vital for particular outcomes in all things. We are instructed to pray and act. I have never taken that lightly, these past two national election cycles have been a glaring anomaly for me personally (and I did vote for everything down ballot, this wasn’t a case of just casually “dropping out”).
My decision to withhold my vote for president in these rare cases grew out of much inner wrestling and ultimately a sense of conviction that either of these proposed leaders put forth by our main political parties would be poor choices for our nation.
As I have said, I fully accept and understand that we have choices before us that will always represent the so-called lesser of two evils. I have always, until the past two cycles, been able to cast my vote for that “lesser” person, even when I did not agree with everything they espoused.
Character is important, however, as is a leader’s temperament and observable behavior.
Mocking opponents, classroom name-calling and other very public behavior and actions that were on display throughout these campaigns and debates fell far below the bar — for me — of anything near what a wise or trustworthy leader would do. To me, it represented an unstable temperament and a serious lack of wisdom. When we’re talking about leading our nation, those are valid and serious concerns and were the ones I wrestled with most.
Christians can and will disagree on politics. As long as politics don’t become an idol, we should be able to accept that and discuss the ramifications and issues with charity and respect, not being fearful of expressing our own convictions.
We live in a particularly difficult time, I personally have not witnessed such division in our nation. And I also have seen this impact the church in some cases, which should grieve us. I has caused spiritual division in some cases.
I have no idea what the 2024 presidential ballot will look like. I am hopeful for better choices.
Well, it’s back to work for me today again. Yesterday was strange, I spent most of it just playing catch-up, trying to connect with various folks to figure out what I’d missed, what was coming up that I need to know about.
I’m feeling very off-center, but that’s to be expected after 2 months away from it all.
Today I have a PT appointment at noon, looking forward to that as we’re going to talk more about some strength training exercises with weights – and what we did for my neck on Tuesday really seemed to help, but we’ll see how permanent some of those things are. I was good about doing several of the exercises here and there throughout the day yesterday. And I even got my waterfront walk in, just before the sun set (we aren’t off the clock until 6 p.m.). But even going forward, they do have lights down there and there seemed to be a good number of people and children out on the walkway so this may not be an impediment even when the time changes.
I wouldn’t go down there too late, but 6 or 6:30 should be fine.
Maybe even safer than walking in my own neighborhood with fewer lights!
(Not to mention thee coyotes and tricky, broken up sidewalks.)
A couple of people have said outright or strongly hinted that it is a sin not to vote. Could you give biblical support for that, or is it only an opinion? Even as an opinion, it needs support. We have the privilege of voting, but that is different from having an absolute obligation. (Also, if we have a moral obligation to vote for president, do we have the same obligation to vote for every other level of government leadership?)
I’ve asked this before, rhetorically, but I ask it now in all seriousness: If you had a choice to vote for Hitler or for Stalin, which would you choose? Or is there a real possibility that there is a certain line at which you would choose “neither” in good conscience? For many people, 2016 and/or 2020 were that place. That doesn’t mean Trump was as bad as Hitler or Stalin, just that we do need to consider the possibility that a certain candidate is not qualified to be president even if the other candidate is worse. But if you’re given a choice between Hitler and Stalin, do you weigh which is worse and vote for the “less bad” one, or do you come to the reluctant decision that you cannot vote at all, for either of these men?
Nice to see the discussions on here. It is reminding me not to mention politics to my son. Last time I casually said something he began yelling at me on the phone and I had to hang up after asking him to stop. We have lots of family to talk about.
I just spoke with our Vet. Pip did great and will can pick her up at 2. He checked out both of her knees and both were equally tight…albeit one with hardware! He said that doesn’t mean she never again will have an issue but for now all goes well! Thankful
Voting. I view it as a responsibility. If I had to vote between two tyrannical dictator murderous humans from hell I suppose I would decline! Thankfully I have never faced such a decision.
Annie’s becoming more of a lap cat. She’s about 15 now (!). I keep forgetting how old she is, but I adopted her 13 years ago and vet thought she was a little older than 1 year, maybe 2.
Kare when Paul went to pick one puppy out of 9 he observed them at play and they all seemed rather aloof as to his being there. He wanted one of them so badly and decided none seemed personable nor approachable towards him. He decided to leave alone. But then a puppy came crawling out from under a chair and made her way to him….ears down “stub” wagging…her name was to be Babe ♥️ (And you know I am crying as I type this post!)
Kare, years ago when choosing my Penelope from a litter of 8 I had the same dilemma. Just before I went in the house to see them, I prayed God would let me recognize the right one by letting show particular interest in me.
I went in the house and stood a ways off and just quietly observed all those little beauties. They were tumbling around all over themselves. But sure enough, it didn’t take long for one of them to disengage from the pack and observe me standing a ways off. She toddled over and the rest is history.
We had 14 wonderful years together and 12 yrs later the thought of her can still bring tears to my eyes.
Thanks, everyone. Never even thought to pray for the right pup. I’ve been studying how to choose puppies (googling) and it’s not complicated but I’ve been stressing about it. I will need to let it go and trust.
I’m looking forward to everything – even car sickness and night whining (howling) and cleaning up accidents.
I would never tell anyone to do anything against his or her conscience, Kizzie. Nor would I ever say God is not sovereign. My point was that we can never say that it doesn’t matter what we do about such and such, because God is sovereign. That is what you seemed to be saying in reply to AJ. Perhaps my mistake.
I would never tell anyone how they HAVE to vote. I have no problem with us all giving reasons for why we should vote for whomever. Or why we should vote. Personally, I think we are blessed to be in a country where we are not only allowed but encouraged to vote. I cannot imagine wasting the privilege. Often my vote does not count, since I live in a state that often goes against how I vote. I vote anyway.
And I vote in a state that overwhelmingly agrees with me. But I usually vote though not in all of the little town stuff as I am not really part of the town. Kind of like church.
Wandering Views 
One of my 2 favorite wedding pics. 🙂
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I can see why it is a favorite, AJ. It is a wonderful photo of a wonderful day.
I posted on yesterday’s thread an opinion on the voting issue, so those who care to can check it out.
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Oh, I have tears from seeing that sweet photo. It is the best!♡
We had a night of rain. The trees drank too much and are suffering from hangovers.
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We had some snow, but it isn’t going to stick around long yet.
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I appreciate what you wrote about voting, Kathaleena. And yes, those who don’t cast a vote formally do end up voting anyways.
I thought more about it all and realized that some people may be more inclined to compartmentalize than others. Those who could not vote for Trump because of character are unable to see the good outcomes over the weaknesses of character. I sorta looked at it as there are a lot of nasty players in the political realm and there will not be a wonderfully balanced character who can get the job done. Ben Carson came close and he had been my choice, but that choice went away. In my mind it is a sin not to vote, but others feel it is a sin to vote for someone with what they judge to have unacceptable character traits. We live in a fallen world.
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I LOVE that picture, AJ! Oh what a happy occasion! :–)
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That was me. Good morning everyone!
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Very cool picture 🙂 AJ, you look very dignified!
And Elizabeth, beautiful, youthful and filled with hope and joy.
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Beautiful picture of father and bride!
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Kathaleena – (re: your comment at the end of yesterday’s thread) There is a line between fatalism and trusting in God’s sovereignty. What DJ and I were describing is the latter, not the former.
There is a verse that says that what is not from faith is sin. For those of us who truly feel we cannot vote for either candidate, to make ourselves vote against our consciences would be sin for us. Whether we vote or not, we leave the results in God’s hands and trust that His will will be done.
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Morning! Aj that is just the sweetest photo!! Pure joy with a sense of expectation is show upon both of your expressions. Love that Daddy/Daughter relationship!
Pip is at our Vet and I am so thankful he loves her as much as we do. She will be spay,chipped and he will take a look at her knee while she is under to check out the acl surgery results. Of course I had to stop at PetSmart to get her a coming home pink ball and a new comfy crate pad. Even though I gave her an anti nausea pill before our ride into town she still threw up! Poor thing.
LikeLiked by 2 people
In response to some of the earlier, more serious posts here following others from yesterday:
In my case (and for other believers I know), I can say this was far from a casual, thoughtless or lazy choice. I wrestled over it.
Would I have wrestled even more had I lived in a so-called “swing” state? Probably, but I don’t live in one of those states, far from it. Our state is and was solidly and already in the blue camp. Our Electoral College vote was beyond predictable.
But putting that aside, even had I been in a swing state, I rather doubt my decision would have changed. But I did not arrive at it casually or easily.
We all need to vote our convictions and I trust that all of us here did that.
Simply put and for myself, I came to the conviction that the candidate who seemed closest to my positions on many issues would have been a poor leader and role model for our nation. I saw him as unstable, immature, oddly self-obsessed, lacking in true convictions and understanding (but rather seeking public adoration and support), lacking in wisdom — basically a poor influence in terms of his character and behavior on our nation.
I saw some supporters almost gleefully pick up on this and begin to mimic his actions and words and behavior, holding others who disagreed in contempt. All of this struck me as a dangerous road our nation was being led down.
I believed, and it was my deep conviction, that this candidate would be an unwise and potentially dangerous leader. His behavior after 2020 has only confirmed those earlier assessments for me. I do not regret my actions nor do I consider them as having come from mere laziness or sinfulness. It grieved me. It rather shocked me that I would come to such a decision.
And we should not confuse “fatalism” with what is taught in the Bible as God’s sovereignty. He raises up and removes leaders, but of course we all understand and accept that theologically so I don’t think we need to dwell on that. God’s will is sovereign in all of these things. That’s not fatalism, it’s not throwing our hands up and saying “oh well, it makes no difference what I do.” Far from it.
Yes, we have a responsibility and privilege to vote and God has provided that for us. We should be always thankful for that. Our actions are important, just as our prayers are vital for particular outcomes in all things. We are instructed to pray and act. I have never taken that lightly, these past two national election cycles have been a glaring anomaly for me personally (and I did vote for everything down ballot, this wasn’t a case of just casually “dropping out”).
My decision to withhold my vote for president in these rare cases grew out of much inner wrestling and ultimately a sense of conviction that either of these proposed leaders put forth by our main political parties would be poor choices for our nation.
As I have said, I fully accept and understand that we have choices before us that will always represent the so-called lesser of two evils. I have always, until the past two cycles, been able to cast my vote for that “lesser” person, even when I did not agree with everything they espoused.
Character is important, however, as is a leader’s temperament and observable behavior.
Mocking opponents, classroom name-calling and other very public behavior and actions that were on display throughout these campaigns and debates fell far below the bar — for me — of anything near what a wise or trustworthy leader would do. To me, it represented an unstable temperament and a serious lack of wisdom. When we’re talking about leading our nation, those are valid and serious concerns and were the ones I wrestled with most.
Christians can and will disagree on politics. As long as politics don’t become an idol, we should be able to accept that and discuss the ramifications and issues with charity and respect, not being fearful of expressing our own convictions.
We live in a particularly difficult time, I personally have not witnessed such division in our nation. And I also have seen this impact the church in some cases, which should grieve us. I has caused spiritual division in some cases.
I have no idea what the 2024 presidential ballot will look like. I am hopeful for better choices.
But God knows.
LikeLiked by 1 person
And Kizzie @12:09 made some excellent points.
_______________
Well, it’s back to work for me today again. Yesterday was strange, I spent most of it just playing catch-up, trying to connect with various folks to figure out what I’d missed, what was coming up that I need to know about.
I’m feeling very off-center, but that’s to be expected after 2 months away from it all.
Today I have a PT appointment at noon, looking forward to that as we’re going to talk more about some strength training exercises with weights – and what we did for my neck on Tuesday really seemed to help, but we’ll see how permanent some of those things are. I was good about doing several of the exercises here and there throughout the day yesterday. And I even got my waterfront walk in, just before the sun set (we aren’t off the clock until 6 p.m.). But even going forward, they do have lights down there and there seemed to be a good number of people and children out on the walkway so this may not be an impediment even when the time changes.
I wouldn’t go down there too late, but 6 or 6:30 should be fine.
Maybe even safer than walking in my own neighborhood with fewer lights!
(Not to mention thee coyotes and tricky, broken up sidewalks.)
LikeLiked by 3 people
Pip! 🙂 A pink ball sounds adorable.
LikeLiked by 2 people
A couple of people have said outright or strongly hinted that it is a sin not to vote. Could you give biblical support for that, or is it only an opinion? Even as an opinion, it needs support. We have the privilege of voting, but that is different from having an absolute obligation. (Also, if we have a moral obligation to vote for president, do we have the same obligation to vote for every other level of government leadership?)
I’ve asked this before, rhetorically, but I ask it now in all seriousness: If you had a choice to vote for Hitler or for Stalin, which would you choose? Or is there a real possibility that there is a certain line at which you would choose “neither” in good conscience? For many people, 2016 and/or 2020 were that place. That doesn’t mean Trump was as bad as Hitler or Stalin, just that we do need to consider the possibility that a certain candidate is not qualified to be president even if the other candidate is worse. But if you’re given a choice between Hitler and Stalin, do you weigh which is worse and vote for the “less bad” one, or do you come to the reluctant decision that you cannot vote at all, for either of these men?
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Being car sick, not so much.
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Sorry, my belated 12:40 comment was to follow my earlier one.
Hi Cheryl. Good to see you, and your thoughtful comments, always.
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Nice to see the discussions on here. It is reminding me not to mention politics to my son. Last time I casually said something he began yelling at me on the phone and I had to hang up after asking him to stop. We have lots of family to talk about.
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I just spoke with our Vet. Pip did great and will can pick her up at 2. He checked out both of her knees and both were equally tight…albeit one with hardware! He said that doesn’t mean she never again will have an issue but for now all goes well! Thankful
Voting. I view it as a responsibility. If I had to vote between two tyrannical dictator murderous humans from hell I suppose I would decline! Thankfully I have never faced such a decision.
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Glad to hear that Pip is doing well, NancyJill.
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My almost-13 year old “puppy” is curled up and snoozing on the couch. 🙂
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My ten year old cat is snoozing in my lap.
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https://ministrywatch.com/pre-born-grows-exponentially-gains-national-recognition-through-partnerships-with-hosts-like-glenn-beck/
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A little mist in my eyes here at that photo. Just lovely, AJ. They grow up so fast, don’t they?
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Annie’s becoming more of a lap cat. She’s about 15 now (!). I keep forgetting how old she is, but I adopted her 13 years ago and vet thought she was a little older than 1 year, maybe 2.
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And I responded over there, Kathaleena.
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My 8 year old pup is flaked out on his dog bed with his ear sticking up hilariously.
We meet the new puppy on Saturday – how does one choose? I’ve never had this problem before.
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I, too, love today’s picture! It just says so much in one shot.
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Kare when Paul went to pick one puppy out of 9 he observed them at play and they all seemed rather aloof as to his being there. He wanted one of them so badly and decided none seemed personable nor approachable towards him. He decided to leave alone. But then a puppy came crawling out from under a chair and made her way to him….ears down “stub” wagging…her name was to be Babe ♥️ (And you know I am crying as I type this post!)
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Kare, years ago when choosing my Penelope from a litter of 8 I had the same dilemma. Just before I went in the house to see them, I prayed God would let me recognize the right one by letting show particular interest in me.
I went in the house and stood a ways off and just quietly observed all those little beauties. They were tumbling around all over themselves. But sure enough, it didn’t take long for one of them to disengage from the pack and observe me standing a ways off. She toddled over and the rest is history.
We had 14 wonderful years together and 12 yrs later the thought of her can still bring tears to my eyes.
Debra
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Now I’m crying.
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Oh NancyJill! I just saw your post! Isn’t it amazing the way these wonderful creatures maje their way into our hearts.
Debra
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Hey, AJ – I forgot to say that you are rockin’ that ponytail. 🙂
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Thanks, everyone. Never even thought to pray for the right pup. I’ve been studying how to choose puppies (googling) and it’s not complicated but I’ve been stressing about it. I will need to let it go and trust.
I’m looking forward to everything – even car sickness and night whining (howling) and cleaning up accidents.
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Well, you can always adopt more than one …
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Yes, you can.
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I would never tell anyone to do anything against his or her conscience, Kizzie. Nor would I ever say God is not sovereign. My point was that we can never say that it doesn’t matter what we do about such and such, because God is sovereign. That is what you seemed to be saying in reply to AJ. Perhaps my mistake.
I would never tell anyone how they HAVE to vote. I have no problem with us all giving reasons for why we should vote for whomever. Or why we should vote. Personally, I think we are blessed to be in a country where we are not only allowed but encouraged to vote. I cannot imagine wasting the privilege. Often my vote does not count, since I live in a state that often goes against how I vote. I vote anyway.
LikeLiked by 1 person
And I vote in a state that overwhelmingly agrees with me. But I usually vote though not in all of the little town stuff as I am not really part of the town. Kind of like church.
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