89 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 3-23-20

  1. Playing politics as usual. Posturing. Tacking additional “pork” onto getting anything done for people that have no income. Giving money to corporations. They did that before and it didn’t help anyone. They all gave themselves bonuses.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. Peter, when you vote them out, be careful who you vote in.

    I try to explain to Elvera what she is seeing on TV. This virus is going around and everything is being shut down. We are doing our part by staying home.
    My mother used to say, “Stay out of the way and let the big boys play.”
    I need a haircut real bad. but maybe I’ll wait another week.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Baby chirped a couple of times but appears to have gone back to sleep. Daughter is off to her job at the assisted living facility.

    We go to thinking and both parents of the twins are in health care. Not likely but they could be called up. Then what? It will work out.

    Daughter the nurse said things are getting special for people in health care. Idiots abound. One of the nurses was filling up at the gas station when she got sprayed down with lysol. Bizarre.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Good morning! I just heard that Georgia has over 600 cases. It is seeming that we are quickly letting it get out of hand. I have stayed in but Art will probably bring it home. It is in God’s hands. He has appointments with each of us. I hope the numbers will soon go down instead of up.

    I am thankful to get to see so many worship services on Facebook. That is a major blessing of these times. I am thankful that Chas could go to his former church yesterday virtually.

    In other news, our water is shut off. Not sure why. Now to investigate. Homework is never ending. I had planned to work in the kitchen today. Hmm . . maybe I will work in the yard. No sooner than I keyed that in did I receive a call from Art. He hit something on the expressway, blew a tire, and drove to work on the rim. He called to get our towing info. I assume the car will be in bad shape, but he got to work and now since it it is raining I will be driving in a monsoon when I have not driven on the expressway in well over a year (with lights glaring in starbursts). Just another Monday. I am laughing. Now if I get a call from my brother, which I did as I started this sentence, things could be worse. Thankfully he has no catastrophe to report. He is congested and assumes it is from pollen. He called to give me the Kroger report. He carried his own bag and they had latex gloves for people at the door. I had told him to stock up so he would not have to go out so frequently. He is continuing his business as usual, on bag at a time. At least I can stay up to date on the out in the general public report from him.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. Enjoyed reading in Revelation today, about the Throne room and the four creatures and the throwing down of the crowns.

    And in Luke about the fig tree getting a bit more time, with the gardener spending more time to bring it along.

    And in Psalm 31 about being surrounded by terror but knowing God Has the final say and is there throughout.

    And the apparent futility of life as in Job 7. Knowing that our lives are not futile when built upon the Rock.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Our region has had its first death from the virus, dying in the local hospital, a case of community transmission. There is also an outbreak in a local nursing home, with both residents, staff, and a doctor infected. The local hospital is tiny, with only about 10 ICU beds, and is the only hospital for the region – when Youngest has her baby, she will be going to that hospital. Our region is a prime location for retirees, who have come out from the Toronto area, so our population skews towards being older.


  7. Morning! The sky is a Colorado blue and the winds are blowing. Husband is pacing around the house muttering…this shelter in place is getting interesting! 😳


  8. Catching up from yesterday and the discussion of Zoom. Kim Kommando had an article talking about some porn showing up. She has a way to fix it so that it won’t happen. Just a heads up for anyone who is using it.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. “It’s” hitting me today, the frantic work schedules. I have some head congestion (that’s better now that I’m up), I think I ate something yesterday that did not agree with me, and did something to my right hand, it’s now in a lot of pain whenever I try to use it, which could make typing difficult. I believe we’re into Week 3 of the hectic, non-stop work schedules. But they are giving each of us days off this week (in lieu of all the OT we’d otherwise be paid for); my day off is tomorrow, so that should help break up the week a bit.

    I got a lot of rest over the weekend, slept in both days, didn’t really go anywhere (haha). I see the Surgeon General is saying this week will be “bad.” And they’re doing something to crack down on all the beach and park goers who didn’t heed the warnings over the weekend.

    I’ll mostly be following the Navy ship arrival plans today, along with another story about plans to turn one of our older hotel/motels near the waterfront into either a quarantine center, rooms for the homeless (I’m told they’re not having much luck convincing the homeless to go to the city rec centers they’re setting up with cots to get them off the streets), or for hospital/medical purposes.

    I should also try to keep up with our local couple stranded in Peru.

    Overall I’m now feeling pretty exhausted. I’m hoping the breaking news aspects of all this will be coming at an easier pace this week than it has for the first 2 weeks.

    Congress — they need to just get their act together, agree on a compromise for points of disagreement, and get something passed already.

    AJ, check in when you can.

    Liked by 2 people

  10. I woke up this morning to discover a blog post I wrote in 2016 had been read 267 times. It was about paper rationing and books issues in WWII London. I hope the publisher wasn’t reading it for ideas . . .

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Loved that post, Roscuro.

    Interesting, DJ. I had been wondering about communion.

    Has anyone heard from AJ?

    We now have a countywide curfew from 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. that is voluntary. Nada problem for me although in the old days I did like to do a quick trip to Publix before they closed at 10:00 p.m.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. My dear friend and relative, has, since before Christmas, been having terrible back problems, to the point where she has been but on some of the most powerful pain medication available. Her husband had to stop work and stay home to take care of the family, as they live too far away for the family to help regularly. They have three children, two boys and a girl. This morning, the girl, who is just a year older than Tiny, phoned, first to talk to Tiny, and then asked to talk to my mother. I heard her little voice asking how my mother was feeling. Now her oldest brother, who is the same age as Third Nephew, is talking to my mother. Last week, one of her pastor nephews phoned us. We seem to be hearing from more of the family now that this is happening. We had been discussing the idea of a family reunion this year, as the eldest cousin of the family, who is a missionary, is home on furlough, but all of that seems unlikely to happen now.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. The premier of Ontario is shutting down all non-essential services now. Now that we are into community spread, and enough people are not observing the instructions for social distancing – they have had to shut down conservation areas in Toronto as people were congregating there in large numbers for outdoor barbeques, etc. – stricter measures have to be taken. I feel for those trapped in the city in high rises. We can go for a nice little forest stroll without leaving the property, and, as it warms up, work in the garden or in the workshop. Those of us with a little property in the country are wealthy.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. The governor of Michigan ordered mandatory “stay at home” this morning, beginning tonight. Grocery shopping, doctor appointments, etc. are okay. It’s what most of us have been doing the last week anyway, but it’s mandatory now.

    Flyboy’s work is deemed “essential services”, so he continues to work four nights a week. He has a letter documenting that he is an essential employee in case he gets stopped. (He works for a charter air company that does passenger, cargo, and medical charter flights.) The rest of us will stay home except for supplies when needed.

    Liked by 6 people

  15. I sent thirteen year old up to clean the chimney. The boy has no fear of heights but is quite aware of what his body is doing as far as keeping it safe. I had to stay inside to watch the baby. Bummer. He did a fine job.

    Liked by 4 people

  16. Thank you for the birthday greetings.

    65 cases here in NM. No deaths, and no hospitalizations thus far. That is not the case in other parts of the country. If you want accurate information on your part of the world, go to your states’ dept of health website. OUrs is updated daily, giving positive/number of tests. New York is a train wreck. The CDC website is not being updated as state websites, but does give a more accurate idea of what is actually happening.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. Do you think it would help if all these invincible scoff-laws knew what is happening in the rest of the world?

    Italians, living in apartments, cannot leave except for food and for a total of 30 minutes every 24-hours to walk dogs. Otherwise, indoors. If you do go out on any of those basic errands, you have to have a card. Police can and will stop you to check your card. I’m not sure if temperatures are involved, but they can fine you on the spot if you’re not doing necessary things.

    My new eyeglasses are in, but I think I’ll live without them for a while.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Reading in Psalm 52 this morning:
    v. 1 The lovingkindness of God endures all day long.
    v. 8 I trust in the lovingkindness of God forever and ever.

    Liked by 3 people

  19. Oh I just braved going out to the grocery and a couple of Walgreens! Neighbor is immune compromised and she needs a thermometer. Two grocery stores and two drug stores…all out with no expectation of restocking anytime soon! Neighbor did try online but all she has searched are out or “back ordered” I tried! When I looked in the freezer this morning I found we had one roast left which is now thawing. Safeway had NO meat…so I ventured on to King Soopers …they had meat…whew..I thought I was going to have to break the news to husband that he was going to become a vegetarian!! I could easily…he would have a tough time of it!

    Liked by 2 people

  20. We have about thirty turkeys, one hundred chickens, fourteen sheep, nine goats, two horses, six rabbits, four dogs, two cats. Maybe we will go keto.

    Liked by 4 people

  21. Mumsee, I do. My father talked very infrequently to his family in Nova Scotia then. So thankful that phone plans have changed, and long distance is no more expensive. I talked at least an hour to my mother every night when I was in the city, and several times we talked between 2-3 hours.

    Liked by 2 people

  22. The death toll for this virus keeps going up.
    I noticed this morning that it was 499. The number stuck in m head because it was one short of 500.
    I just noticed on FoxNews that it is now 573.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. I remember so well when my oldest was away at college. Phone calls were so precious and so expensive. It was so nice when we all were able to get email. Now we have so many options. What a blessing!

    Liked by 4 people

  24. When I was a child, presumably to teach the real cost of items, Mom paid me pay for postage stamps I used, and if I wrote a check (from her account), I had to pay the cost of the purchase plus 25 cents for the check. Well, from the age of 12 or 13 I occasionally babysat the little girl next door (a spoiled-rotten brat) for $1 an hour, split three ways with my brother and sister, so 25 cents was the better part of an hour of work and hard-earned money. Likewise, when I was 17 and my dad had died and we moved back down to Phoenix, if I wanted to call the one friend I’d made in northern Arizona while we lived there (she was 15 years older than I was), I had to keep track of the minutes and pay for the call, 25 or 35 cents a minute, something like that. So I’d make three- or four-minute phone calls. And my friend and I were both shy, so we’d sometimes sit on the phone for a minute between words–but it still felt like a human connection, and worth it. Just not very often!

    One housemate in my Chicago days got into a long-distance relationship with the man who is now her husband and father of her seven children. He called her every night and they talked for two or three hours, using “the dime line,” which in those days seemed “cheap” by comparison to what we’d been paying for long-distance. One night he accidentally fell asleep while they were talking and all her yelling into the phone failed to wake him up, and he awoke several hours later with the phone line still open. (In those days you could only break the connection from the sending end, not the receiving, or vice versa.) He got his first $600 phone bill and said, “Wait, we can’t do this. I can’t afford it, and we’ll want the money after we marry.” So they renegotiated things, and he called her twice a week (a limited time period) and she called him once a week. I was so glad my husband and I didn’t have such limitations when we were courting. We did much of our communication by e-mail (free), and we talked two to three hours a day for no additional cost beyond our phone plan. When my friend had been in her relationship, I had told myself I could never do a long-distance relationship, but circumstances had changed enough in those 12 or 15 years to make it doable.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Okay, I went to pick up the glasses anyway. Noticed RiteAid next door was empty, so I went in and bought all the odds and ends I needed–except the GrapeNuts cereal I use in place of “real” nuts. No fresh fruit or vegetables, but I did score butter and coffee. We will survive.

    There were four people in the store besides me–I was the only customer.

    I then stopped at the Adorable houses and handed out #1 house a 4-pound roast I bought for their family last week and four popper guns and balls I bought six months ago and kept forgetting to give them. Now they have something new to do. And a bouquet of flowers Rite Aid sold. Who knows why?

    2. Two popper guns and balls and fresh banana cake, so they have a treat.

    That was the first time I’ve left my neighborhood in a week. Traffic was very light. Saw two groups of roaming teenagers who looked like they were making a half-hearted effort for social distancing.

    At least they weren’t touching. 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  26. Not sure I’ll catch up today, so I’m jumping in with these random comments:

    Michelle – Re: your 20 year old boarder. Did you somehow clue him in to the fact that choosing to stay at your house for the good internet connection rather than being with his mother, and helping her with the other children, is pretty selfish?

    A couple of you ladies have shared a humorous post on Facebook about not box dying one’s hair. Well, that is how I dyed my own hair, not being able to afford to have it done professionally. But I did not reply, because I didn’t want your friends to think I’m low-class. (I’m really not!)

    Nightingale has said that if too many of the nurses and CNAs end up getting sick with the virus, the remaining staff will have to go to 12-hour shifts. Of course, there is the possibility that it could get worse than that. 🙁

    Random question: Is the expression supposed to be “toe the line” or “tow the line”? I have seen it both ways, and both make sense in their own way. (I have my suspicion of which is correct, but am not sure about it.)

    Here in Connecticut, the order has been given for all non-essential businesses to close at 8:00 tonight. 😦

    Liked by 1 person

  27. I’ve undoubtedly told this story before. “In Christ Alone” is precious to me. The words are so profound, and my church in Nashville used to sing it. (It’s the only church I’ve ever attended that sang it, but we sang it there.)

    I moved to Nashville in 2003. I made an astounding number of life changes in that move: I gave up a very good job to go freelance, I moved from the Midwest to the South, I left my lifelong Baptist roots for a Reformed church (I’d determined to make that change two or three years before the move, but I loved my Chicago church and waited for the move to make it) and in that change I moved from a church that was 60% black to one that was virtually 100% white (eventually we had a couple of black people, but not right away), and within just a few months I did the math and decided it made more sense to buy at historically low interest rates than to continue to rent one bedroom in someone else’s house, so I became a first-time homeowner. And then, at age 36 and less than five months after my move to Nashville, my second parent (my mom) died–I’d already lost my father and my stepfather.

    I had quickly found a church in Nashville, and knowing my mental health depended on being “plugged in” quickly, I’d joined a women’s Bible study and made one friend right away, others eventually. That first friend, E, was a couple decades older than me and married to a man at least another decade older still, but had we met in college as same-age friends and as Christians, we could have been lifelong best friends–she’s easily the friend with whom I’ve had the greatest connections in interests and understanding.

    When Mom died rather suddenly, I was just at the point of joining the church–the Sunday I was gone for her funeral was the Sunday I was supposed to join. I was back at church the next week, and we sang this song (possibly the first time I had heard it, though I’m not positive). E and I were sitting together (her husband attended a different church), and when we got to the final verse I could hardly choke out the words through my tears, by the time I got to the third line:

    From life’s first cry to final breath,
    Jesus commands my destiny
    No power of hell, no scheme of man,
    Can ever pluck me from His hand
    Till He returns or calls me home
    Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand.

    E saw my tears, heard my choking out the words anyway. She put her arm around me and her face against mine, and her tears and mine mingled as we sang, both of us singing as loudly as we could, and both of us raising the arm that wasn’t around our friend.

    Five or six years later, Easter Sunday, E was in the hospital with a burst appendix. She’d waited too long to go in, and it wasn’t yet certain she’d make it out alive. (She didn’t have insurance, but a doctor in the church convinced her she had to go anyway, and the cost would be covered somehow–and it was.) We sang this song, and though E wasn’t beside me this time, I sang it with tears thinking of that other time and thinking of the dear friend who had worshiped God with me in the lonely, lonely week after my mother died. I hadn’t known she was in the hospital until the service (I had known she was suffering abdominal pain and resisting going to the doctor), so I stopped by to see her after the service. She was weak but alive and she seemed “out of danger.” After we hugged, she looked me in the eye and said, “I could be before the Throne,” and I knew she was saying “That wouldn’t have been a worse outcome,” just that it wasn’t God’s time.

    Liked by 5 people

  28. Kizzie, it occurred to me after we discussed Michell’s boarder last time that the “better internet connection” might well have been a tongue-in-cheek answer. Generally once a 20-year-old has moved out of the house, he or she isn’t all that interested in moving back, and that isn’t necessarily selfish. A young man in particular could have a hard time doing so. (My younger brother moved back briefly and quickly regretted it, because he’d been an independent man and suddenly he was again “Mom’s baby boy.” He didn’t stay long.) If he truly believed his mom needed him, his answer might be different, but that was likely a lighthearted reply rather than the whole truth, and thus not as selfish as it might have sounded.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. Well, I had thought I’d check in here throughout the day, swinging around from my “work” desk to my “personal” desk during breaks. But mid-morning I realized that I could take the monitor off my (personal) desktop and attach it to my office laptop, and it’s a whole lot easier to work with two screens, one of them nice and large, than just the little laptop screen. So my monitor is doing the commuting this week (and the next), from one desk to the other at 8 am and back to this one at 4:30.

    Liked by 4 people

  30. Somewhere recently I read that someone wasn’t feeling well and their sense of smell wasn’t working. I can’t remember where I read that. Was it someone here?

    I ask because I just saw a report on NBC News that now they’re finding Covid can cause a temporary loss of sense of smell, even when there are no other symptoms.

    Liked by 1 person

  31. We are up to 83 COVID cases now. The govenor has issued a “stay at home order” from tomorrow until APril 10. All non-essential businesses are to be closed. I thank
    God that I have a job that continues to bring home a paycheck through this crisis.

    Liked by 3 people

  32. Kevin – When I had that sinus infection that lasted for a month, my sense of smell was gone for a while, and I’m pretty sure I mentioned it here.

    I first noticed it when I should have smelled something that has a strong smell, and I didn’t smell it at all. That was somewhat alarming, but I quickly realized it was due to the sinus infection. That lasted a pretty long time, but gradually came back.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Cheryl – I can see what you mean, that maybe it was a tongue-in-cheek type of answer. But even so, in these particular circumstances, it would have been good of him to help his mother out.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. One of my relatives in LA told this story:

    I was at the grocery store yesterday in line to get in. An older couple showed up and headed to the end of the line. A young man at the front of the line walked over to them and told them to take his place in the line. Everyone in line then told the young man to get in line after the older couple.

    Liked by 4 people

  35. He’s an adult and makes his own choices. We leave him to it and now it’s too late to help his mom. He’s not our child and rarely engages with us in conversation (can you imagine that?), so we just let him be. He only comes out of his large room to eat (by himself, not with us, his choice) and answer the door when food is delivered.

    I think it’s odd, but I’m an extrovert.

    Liked by 2 people

  36. Michelle – I should have picked up more on your use of the word “boarder”. Even though I used the word myself in my comments, I was still thinking more of a house guest type of situation.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. Hi all, just checking in.

    The girls seem a little better, I’m just wiped. I get up for a few minutes, and I’m tight back on the couch or in bed. No fever, no energy.

    Thanks for the continued prayers.

    Liked by 11 people

  38. Thanks for the heads-up regarding Zoom, Kathaleena. Is there an article link you could share that talks about what to do to prevent porn from showing up on Zoom?

    In Christ Alone was sung at the funerals of two of my closest friends who died nine years ago. It is one of my favorite hymns of all time. And I love the Celtic music sound, so the combination of that instrumentation with that hymn was particularly beautiful and joyous and triumphant! Thanks for sharing the video, Jo.

    I’ve heard that the sense of taste, in addition to the sense of smell, is also diminished early on with COVID-19. That would make sense, too, as those two senses are so interrelated.

    Liked by 3 people

  39. Michelle, I have been part of multiple living situations. Let’s see, child at home, adult at home (I didn’t move out till I was 20), sharing an apartment with my sister (and, for a year, the two of us and a friend), student in a dorm, sharing a rental house with others about my age, renting a bedroom in a house, being the home owner who rented out a bedroom (I was in my 30s and 40s, and the three young women who rented from me were all around 25), being a wife and stepmom, and now being a wife in an “empty nest.”

    When I rented the bedroom in someone’s house, they didn’t treat me as an intruder, but nevertheless I felt like one. They were renting a bedroom since the husband was a pilot who had been stationed out of Nashville and the company had switched him to be stationed out of Dallas. So the wife continued to live (and work) in Nashville, and the husband got an apartment in Dallas, but he flew home for a few days whenever he got a chance. They rented out a bedroom out of financial need. And when he was home, I was especially diligent to stay out of their way, partly because they had such limited time together and partly because it simply felt awkward to be sharing a home with a man to whom I was not related and whom I did not know. When it was just her, I ate with her occasionally, and watched TV with her occasionally, but it felt like a purely financial situation and I didn’t want to “intrude,” so even with her I mostly stayed in my room and ate most meals while she was working.

    When I rented out a bedroom myself, I realized immediately that the boarder was in a totally different relationship to me than I had been to fellow renters when several young women had rented an apartment or a house together. I wasn’t a fellow renter, but a landlady, and older than them. And as much as I tried to encourage them to see it as their home, to have guests over if they wanted (just with the stipulation of no unrelated males spending the night), none of them ever had a guest over and most of them rarely even ate “at home.” Two of the three were actually quite friendly and chatty, but it still felt much different. (I remember when Victoria on the blog said that when you rent out space it has to be completely financial, with no relationship whatsoever, and I said that part of the reason I rented out a bedroom was that I lived alone and worked from my house and I valued even a few minutes of chatting with another human!) If I were renting out space today, based on what I learned from being on both sides of that situation, I would want a home that had its own “space” for them, ideally a bedroom with a sitting area and its own en-suite bathroom, but as close to that as possible, and would invite her to make full use of the kitchen and to interact with me all she wanted in public areas of the home . . . but I think it’s really hard for a tenant in that situation to see himself/herself as anything but a paid boarder, no matter how much the home owner is willing for it to be otherwise. Maybe it’s different if the relationship is long term; in my case, I rented a bedroom only a few months, and the three boarders I had in Nashville all stayed for around a year, none long term. The first of those was actually a very good living situation, and she lived with me when Misten was a puppy and they loved each other–but I asked her to move out (giving her two or three months notice) when I was preparing to do foster care.

    Liked by 2 people

  40. Whew, I might be done for the day, at long last. It was just as crazy as ever. I wrote 2 stories, contributed to a couple others. I’m glad I’ll have tomorrow off.

    I changed places in the house, brought the laptop out to the front table near the front door and set up “shop” there. It has an antique wheeled office chair — one of those old wooden swivel chairs, was told it came out of the old LA City Hall when I bought it many years ago. With a loose cushion I’ve put on the seat, it’s actually pretty comfortable. And it was a good change of location.

    Liked by 5 people

  41. Add to my list at 8:27 that I have had foster children in my house. Also, three of those housemates/roommates were Hispanic and two were Asian, and one set of foster children black. I had three other situations in which I invited a black person/people to live with me, but she was unable to or chose not to. And I’ve lived in apartments, dorms, houses, a condo, and a mobile home, and have lived in the Southwest, the Midwest, and the Southeast, everything from living in the country to living in two of the top-ten American cities. And I’ve counseled at camp about ten times. My sister once told me that she had been worried I wouldn’t be “flexible” enough to be married, and that was when I mentally went through the list of all my living situations and realized what a variety it had been, with all but two or three of them being good experiences. Living with a gentle husband is far from the hardest of those.

    Liked by 4 people

  42. I think this is the 12 th person who has lived with us. The young women—with one exception—always wanted to hang out with us, particularly me. Stargazer kept to himself, but certainly joined us for meals and regular life and conversation. Certainly, the “mother figures” who asked us to rent a room expected he would sit and chat with us— picking up some life lessons that got missed with his divorced parents. After five months, that hasn’t happened.

    But, again, it’s his decision, not ours. We’d be happy to talk with him.

    We did, however, waive the rent until his job returns.

    Liked by 3 people

  43. Michelle, under different circumstances, I would have happily hung out with my landlady, and had I lived with her longer than a summer, that likely would have happened. But I was just starting freelance and thus building a business and getting to know a new city, and I knew she rented only to get income. And she worked long hours, leaving before I was up in the morning and getting home after 8:00 at night, so I mostly tried to stay out of her way. All the young women I rented to were friendly, but the fact that none ever had a guest (or very rarely) when I specifically told them it was OK to do so (and wrote it into the written contract) tells me they didn’t fully “let down their hair.” When friends and I rented places together, I had dinner guests and overnight guests and so did they. But that might be a generational difference, too.

    But yeah, if this is #12 for you, you can see how he is different from the others.


  44. I’ve never been a renter living with the owner. I’ve had a lot of roommates or housemates in dorms, apartments, and houses. Between college and the following years of singleness I can think of 39. I hope that helped make me more flexible by the time I met Mrs. B. 🙂

    Liked by 4 people

  45. I heard tonight that my Colorado daughter does not have the three extra children this week. Their dad decided to stay home with them. So relieved.

    Liked by 4 people

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