60 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 8-23-16

  1. OfCourse!
    Why didn’t this dummy see that?
    Chas has to start painting a shed today. He had to buy all the equipment because he left in in Hendersonville, thinking he wouldn’t need that stuff anymore.
    Maybe we should have moved into a condo.

    Liked by 5 people

  2. A heartfelt, how are you, all?
    Miss Bosley is having a cuddle (big time) this a.m. I am still recouperating from my jet lag, LOL, from my trips to the Atlanta airport to help with transportation of speakers to and from the conference. I got to have appointments with several people to get the names of agents who I might want to approach with my project.

    The conference is smaller, and mostly attracts Atlanta Christian writers. It was good to connect with more of them outside my critique group.

    Liked by 5 people

  3. My vet said I have to get a new cat carrier. I used a belt to hold it together. It works just fine, IMO. But I will get a new one. Suggestions? It has to accommodate a big cat.


  4. Janice, you may have seen my thought on FB that I think someone should invent a cat carrier that looks like a cardboard box so that the cat would voluntarily sit in it.

    Liked by 6 people

  5. I recognize that photo. Cheryl had it in her portfolio she had us vote on. It is really big on my computer screen and I can see the detail. Lovely.
    I want to thank all of you for your participation in the discussion yesterday.

    Today we have a local election for mayor and city council. Our current mayor has been on the job for 16 years and was the hand picked, golden boy of the former mayor who was first elected sometime in the 1970’s. It is time for a change. I think it was Mark Twain who said politicians and diapers should be changed often for the same reason. Our city council is elected “at large”. I am torn on who to vote for in one instance. I know and like the policies of one of the people running, but the other is a black man. He threw his hat in the ring at the last minute. His platform is that his “community” has never been represented and they need a voice on the council. He is right. I have read his platform and like what he has to say. I don’t want to vote for him simply because he is black, but I also know he will need “white support” to get elected. I think both men running would be an asset to the council. I have had the first candidates sign in my yard for a month now. What to do? What to do?


  6. Two things about the above photo.
    1. There is a small water snake hiding in there somewhere. I just know it.
    2. There are frogs somewhere nearby too.

    Have I ever told you about the goldfish pond we had in our back yard before “paranoid mommy” had it filled in to keep toddler BG from falling in?
    We had FROGS. They ‘sang” all night long. It was horrid. I slept with ear plugs–or at least tried to sleep.
    One day I came home from work and walked outside with Marlowe the Wonder Dog. The best Golden Retriever in the world. There were these giant frogs swimming around and they had tiny little frogs on their backs. It was the weirdest thing I had ever seen. I couldn’t figure it out. Finally I decided to call my mother in law and ask her about it because she has always been my authority on all things nature and yard. She wasn’t there and my father in law answered the phone. I explained to him that there were these GIANT frogs swimming in the goldfish pond and they had these tiny little frogs on their backs. He said, Shug, that’s they mama frog and she is teaching the baby frog how to swim”. I told him that was they most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. Frogs didn’t know who their mama’s were. Frogs lay eggs.
    Husband got home and I trotted him outside to look at the frogs. It was a puzzle. He said, “Hon, they’re mating!” I was so embarrassed. I had called my father in law and asked him and he was too much of a southern gentleman to tell me.
    Eventually I laughed. I bet when Nana got home he told her “No dang wonder we don’t have another grandchild!!!!

    Liked by 7 people

  7. I had to look twice to see the photo isn’t mine . . . but I have taken photos of the same flower. It actually isn’t a bud of a water lily (as I thought when I first photographed them) but a different species, the yellow pond lily. One of my photos that I almost entered in the fair had a blue damselfly on the top. But we couldn’t figure out what color to mat it with and ended up choosing other photos.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. I am back from dropping Amos off for grooming and did vote. As I was driving in I kept having to remind myself of the names I had chosen to vote for so that I wouldn’t accidentally vote for the wrong person. I went ahead and voted for the white man because there were three people running for that seat and I didn’t want the incumbent to win.


  9. Thanks for the morning laugh, Kim.

    Beautiful photo. 🙂

    I had my first (real) shower in the 3 days — I had to really make sure all the “goop” (silicone used to fix that leaky drain) was COMPLETELY dry (I don’t think it was last time this fix was attempted a year ago, but this time we also found a much longer piece that connected better and more securely with the pipe below). Anyway, it sure felt good.

    I’m meeting this morning with one of the waterfront restaurant owners to take up concerns that our stories about the waterfront shopping venue (built in the ’60s) set to be demolished and replaced make it clear that this and another popular restaurant will remain. Part of the problem comes with old photos we re-use with the stories, pulled by photo department, this last week contained old captions implying the restaurant closures.

    Restaurant owner not happy and I don’t blame him. So we’ve fixed the captions & I will sit down with him today to see if we can’t get another story going for tomorrow that clarifies all of this.

    We have so many moving parts and so few people and editors to oversee them (spread out at sister papers all over the LA area) that more mistakes like these are getting made. 😦

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Donna, yesterday you asked what people knew about the eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) Trinitarian debate. I’ve been following it since before the first post by Liam Goligher raising concerns about the teaching over at the Mortification of Spin blog: http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/housewife-theologian/is-it-okay-to-teach-a-complementarianism-based-on-eternal-subordination#.V7xdlGz6vZY

    I addressed the faulty interpretation by ESS advocates of a key verse in this blog post: https://travellerunknownblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/analogies-of-god-and-humanity/

    I have tried to give the benefit of the doubt to ESS advocate such as Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem, but I am frankly horrified by some of the doctrinal conclusions that have been drawn by those who argue for some kind of eternal submission of God the Son to God the Father. Some of the quotes from Ware place God the Father as supreme over God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, a position which is absolutely unorthodox in the understanding of the Trinity. And the conclusions that their followers have drawn from such teaching as regards complementarianism is also disturbing. There is an article over at the Center for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood which claims that because of their belief that the Son is eternally submissive to the Father, then the wife will be eternally submissive to her husband, even in the Resurrection, which completely contradicts Christ’s takedown of the Sadducees’ question about the woman married to seven brothers. When they start twisting or ignoring Christ’s plainest teaching in order to uphold their wrongheaded theories of the Trinity, something is seriously wrong.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Kim: 😆

    😦 Someone in the distant past didn’t take care of the property. Some of the wood on that shed is rotten. It could have been painted and cared for a couple of decades ago, but wasn’t. I can’t replace it because there’s no place to stop. So? I’m just painting over it.
    But it kinda bugs me to have to pull dead English Ivy vines off it to paint. The shed will have to be replaced someday. But not now. The foundation, everything, will have to start over. A couple of thousand, at least.


  12. So, I emailed my landlady to make sure that everything was clear for me to move in this week on the day I get possesion. That was two days ago, and I still haven’t heard back yet. Tomorrow is the day. Not sure what is going on 😦

    Liked by 2 people

  13. Thanks, roscuro, it was the connect to complementarianism that was raised as a question in our Q&A session after church. A member asked the pastor about it, saying he and others who were hearing about it (through the complementarianism movement) were bothered by it. No one in the room (there was someone outside the hall at that particular time would have known more) was able to address it in much detail; our pastor had read an academic paper on the ESS issue itself, but didn’t feel ready to address it off the cuff in much detail (beyond giving us a general description of the premise which I gathered he was not in agreement with).


  14. My dogs need grooming — but Cowboy also goes in for a teeth cleaning on Friday, so I’ll schedule the grooming for next week sometime. Dogs, the house, work. Dogs, the house, work.
    Always something. At least the cat isn’t much trouble lately.

    Cat carriers: I still use the original one I got for Annie when I brought her home, it’s plastic, a hard shell. The vet receptionist suggested I should get another kind as this one is in two parts, a top and bottom half, that latch together. She thinks those latches can come loose and the cat can wind up dropping out, but there are several of of the latches and I think that would be unlikely. It’s worked well so far.

    The soft carriers look nice, though.


  15. Phos:

    I have been a Christian since 1950 I have a degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I have taught 1201 Sunday School lessons in addition to other lessons at other times.
    I’m not bragging, or putting on. I’m just telling you that to say this.

    This is the first time ever that I have heard anything about eternal submission of God the Son to God the Father. Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” He prayed in the garden, but was submissive to the Father’s will. It has never occurred to me that Jesus and the Father might not get along.
    I sit here laughing at the thought.
    Some theologian, somewhere had invented an issue.

    My recommendation is to ignore it.

    Liked by 5 people

  16. Good morning, all.

    DJ, I responded late last night on yesterday’s thread regarding your question about eternal submission and how some people are relating it to marriage. Not sure you saw it, but Roscuro’s answer today is better and more complete.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. There is a concept in business these days of the “servant leader”. In any situation it is necessary for one to lead and the other to follow. If two are trying to lead there is strife. The servant leader leads, but is at all times conscious of making decisions that are best for all not just himself (or if you want equality, herself.
    I tried to read some of the links yesterday on ESS and it was beyond my comprehension. I just could not understand it.
    There are some things I know more about than Mr. P does. (Obviously I know more about southern lawns and landscaping but I kept my mouth shut) There are things he knows more about than I do. I wouldn’t begin to argue with him about what happens in the military or about anything medical—he has that experience I don’t. Chas is finding out that as much as he knows, Elvera knew more about budgeting and shopping. We would be foolish to be submissive and let someone lead who has no knowledge of the situation. Perhaps I am being too simplistic, but I have never thought that Jesus in heaven is submissive to the Father. He took on an earthly role and was submissive to the will of the Father and now in heaven is our advocate to the Father, but He is still in the Trinity.

    Maybe I have exposed my ignorance but my 2 cents worth.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Kim, I’m in a similar situations. This mayor has been around forever. He is doing a good job of bringing in new business but has a bad reputation for nepotism. For example, rumor has it, his daughter is the head librarian with an obscene salary and no experience. Then shortly after he regulated the only two businesses in town who served liquor out of the area, his brother opens a pub. I know nothing about his only opponent. I voted for him anyway.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. If you had time, Chas, you could cut the vines at ground level and let them die and release naturally from their painted surface so as to not pull the paint off with the vine.

    Donna, my current carrier is like the one you have with one broken latch. I think that type would be safer in case of a car accident, but the soft carriers are accepted for flights on airlines. Really, the securely tightened belt around the carrier works perfectly, but because the vet’s office is on a busy highway, I think she reasonably does not feel comfortable with me using a broken carrier.


  20. Chas, the problem is that Wayne Grudem wrote a book on systematic theology which is used as a textbook in many seminaries/Bible schools and Bruce Ware is on the faculty of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. So this is or will be an issue in many churches. I know a young man who is a sincere Christian, but, because of this kind of teaching, has stated his opinion that the husband is High Priest of the home and that the wife’s submission includes obeying her husband even when he tells her to do something wrong. I have read articles by complementarians saying that women in general should submit to men in general [The ESS position, as stated by Grudem, is that the man is analogous to God the Father, while the woman is analogous to God the Son, and even, yes, that the child is analogous to God the Holy Spirit – quote here: http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/1517/a-mythological-godhead#.V7xyxGz6vZY%5D. This is becoming a real problem.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Janice, English Ivy vines don’t release.

    There used to be a cartoon called “Born 20 years too soon.” I was born 50 years too soon.
    No woman ever obeyed me because I’m a man.
    (I almost ended the sentence at “me”, but I was a supervisor once. But that didn’t come with privileges. )

    Liked by 1 person

  22. LOL, NancyJill.

    I’m hard at work at the marketing questionaire from the publisher. I’ve never had one before and while I have a number of things in place, others . . .

    They want to know, among other things, many other things, the names of thought leaders about Oswald Chambers or My Utmost for His Highest. When you google, the first blogger that comes up is . . . me. 🙂

    But, who else? I’m feeling stymied here. Devotion writers? Online devotionals? The Jesus Calling author? Any ideas?

    I did find a quote about OC’s importance from Dr. Charles Stanley, but does he carry weight? Not familiar with him out here in Sodom and Gomorrah.


  23. Roscuro said what I was going to more generally — these issues start making the rounds within the church via seminaries and can lead to the growth of serious error. And that’s pretty serious stuff. They need to be addressed and challenged.

    Back from the meeting, where I was given a letter that I *really* was not given, and I talked to someone I really can’t quote; NOW I’m off to work to figure out how to write a story.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. I’ve not followed the complimentarian movement at all, but recall from the 1980s/’90s that it seems more egalitarian than some of the other “submission” beliefs that were floating around at that time. But I’ve never read much about it and certainly haven’t kept up with what may have been an evolution of the movement in more recent decades.


  25. 6 Arrows, from last night: besides the other issues involved in “will we keep our spouses for all eternity (Scripture says no, and it doesn’t address people like my husband, who has now been married twice, or my mom and her second husband, each of whom had two wives), can you imagine getting to heaven and finding that, sorry, you blew it in not choosing a spouse on earth and now you’re stuck single for eternity? That’s a Mormon teaching, but not a Christian one.

    That’s also one of my gripes with those who believe in a future literal Millennium (the way the dispensationalists describe it, since I don’t know how other people do): They think that between Christ’s return and the future perfect state, there will be a thousand years of the church ruling the world while we are perfected and the world still wants to choose sin. For a thousand years we will be perfect, and chaste, while we watch the world go on with their daily lives and rejecting Christ. Honestly it sounds like Purgatory, not a perfect thousand years! I was as content being single as anyone I knew, but I still thought, a thousand more years of watching other people marry and have children, and watching people (desire to) rebel against Christ, followed by a super bloody battle, sounds like a uniquely unpleasant way to begin eternity! It would be like being a prison warden, not at all like living in the Garden of Eden before the Fall.

    I don’t know what I believe about the end times. Personally, I suspect that just as the Old Testament fully predicted Christ’s life, death, and resurrection but people were still surprised to see how it all unfolded, so when we get to the end of time we will be surprised to see that it all plays out according to prophecy, but in a way that no one had ever fully figured out. So I’m willing to read and study, but will wait to see how it all comes together rather than trying to predict it.


  26. What’s interesting to me about the ESS debate is this: In the 1990s I had a friend who was an egalitarian and she tried to convert me but failed. But I read some of the literature, because if egalitarianism was actually truer to Scripture, I was willing to be convinced. Ultimately I determined that it’s false and dangerous.

    But I remember the day, and it pretty much had to be 2001 or earlier, when she told me earnestly, “They’re saying that the Son submits to the Father eternally, and that that is the example for marriage. But that’s heresy! They’re so committed to their position that they’re willing to come up with heresy to back it up!” I was tired of discussing the matter with her by then, and believed her to have her own blind spots and heresy (she once told me, “I don’t have a problem with Jesus; I have a problem with Paul!”). So I didn’t really look into the matter or pay it much attention. But now suddenly it’s coming out as though it’s something new, and I’m thinking, “Wait a minute, time out. The other side was pointing it out as heresy well over a decade ago, maybe as long as 20 years or more ago. They’re wrong on lots and lots of things, but maybe, just maybe, we shouldn’t shut down other people’s arguments so thoroughly that we refuse to listen even if they’re right.” Now, I’m not speaking of myself, here–I’m not a theologian and don’t pretend to be, nor was I in a place to change anyone’s mind. But I can’t really imagine that my friend was the only one saying that, and that no theologian heard it brought to the front.

    My husband keeps pointing out that Scripture’s main example of marriage is the church submitting to Christ.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. My brother use to attend Dr. Stanley’s church, but later chose an Independent Baptist. I believe Dr. Stanley’s church is Southern Baptist and my brother does not care for the direction the music went, too much of a rock and roll sound in my brother’s opinion. I have been to a wedding in his church when it was downtown, and later I went to some seminars in his church, but I have only heard him on the radio although the current location of the church is maybe 20 minutes from where we live on a Sunday morning without rush hour. Truly, there is never a traffic jam to get to church in Atlanta.


  28. We are each a part of the bride of Christ. Does that speak into the discussion of the roles of men and women in marriage? I have not read all of your discussions, not from lack of interest, but from lack of time.

    Liked by 3 people

  29. Well, the young woman I have asked you to pray for? We are doing an intervention on Friday. The “team” will meet Thursday night. I just got finished writing my intervention letter to her. Wow. I may need to call a therapist my own self after writing that.

    Liked by 5 people

  30. Cheryl, the lay people took a while to realize there was a problem, but apparently the ESS debate has been going on in academic circles for a while now. Nobody paid any attention because they probably didn’t see that it had any practical effect. It was women from conservative reformed circles who started blowing the whistle, and that is where I first read about it. However, the larger circle of reformed/Baptist leaders, from associations like The Gospel Coalition (which does the T4G conferences) and the Center for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW), didn’t respond to the concerns until Carl Trueman, Liam Goligher, and several other pastors started to raise the question.

    Liked by 2 people

  31. Cheryl, I don’t know what to believe on the end times, either, but I agree it could very well play out in a way no one expects. God knows, and that’s enough for me.

    Liked by 1 person

  32. Cheryl – I have never heard that version of the millennium before. What I have heard/read is that people will be following Christ, but there will be a short-lived rebellion, by a small percentage of people, at the end. But I agree with you that the “end times” may play out in a way that is surprising to everyone.


  33. Hubby & I believe in the complementarian view of husband-wife relationships, but definitely not in the eternal submission aspect of it. Is that considered an integral part of complementarianism? Most of the teaching I have heard or read has been strictly about marriage, not about ESS.


  34. Michelle – Yes, Charles Stanley’s name definitely does carry weight among many Christians.

    Speaking of “definitely”, Little Guy pronounces it “defintwy”. 🙂


  35. I finally got hold of landlady on FB, and everything is OK.

    Kiz, ESS is not necessarily a part of complementarianism, but CBMW’s material is increasingly permeated with the idea. This blogger has extensive documentation of how pervasive it is: https://adaughterofthereformation.wordpress.com/2016/08/12/eternal-subordination-of-the-son-and-cbmw/. So, complementarian material should be read with caution and discernment. I certainly believe in the instructions to married couples in Ephesians 5, but I do not think the word complementarian is necessary to describe what I believe. The idea that the Son always submits to the Father in the Trinity has been made something of a stick to beat wives and women over the head with and an unhealthy emphasis on male authority has crept into complementarianism. Sometimes, examining these issues, I think when we stick a label on what we believe about a certain topic, we are in danger of becoming more defensive of the label than of Christ.

    Liked by 2 people

  36. Yeah, Roscuro, I’ve just found it an easy way to describe what I believe about marriage relationships.

    I am blessed to have had some excellent teaching on the subject, from two older couples in strong marriages, where there was mutual love & respect. One man emphasized that a wise man listens to his wife’s advice & insight, & considers it seriously. Neither of those wives were under their husband’s thumbs at all, but were strong, godly women who nevertheless knew how to be properly (biblically) submissive. I’d like to believe that I have followed in their footsteps.


  37. Not sure if this has already been posted on the complementarian and ESS discussion, but this is good related reading, IMO.


    Complementarianism doesn’t need the Son to be eternally submissive to the Father (and, as we’ll see in a moment, such a claim actually distorts the essences/roles distinction anyway); if Christ submits to the Father in the incarnation (John; 1 Cor 11:3) and into eternity future (1 Cor 15:27-28), then the central complementarian claim here—that submission does not imply inferiority—stands, whether or not we extrapolate it back into eternity past. (The point should be obvious, given biblical exhortations to submit to governments, church leadership and so on, but you’d be surprised how often our cultural assumptions of equal rights, democracy and the like get read into our theology). This simple point made, complementarians can then get back to talking about marriage and church government from passages that are primarily about marriage (e.g. Song of Songs; 1 Cor 7; Eph 5; 1 Pet 3) and church government (e.g. 1 Cor 3-4; 1 Thess 1-2; 1 Tim 3; Tit 1; 1 Pet 5).

    Liked by 2 people

  38. When I was young, I voted for Democrats for president. They always lost, from McGovern on (well, with the exception of Carter, I suppose).

    Then I began voting for Republicans — right when they began to lose (Clinton-Bush (Sr) ’92). I began to think I was just jinxed when it came to presidential voting.

    Liked by 2 people

  39. Sleep eludes me tonight. Alarm is set to ring less than five hours from now, and I’ll be doing quite a bit of driving (by myself) tomorrow morning and probably into the afternoon.

    Tired, but can’t sleep.

    Praying for you all, and thanks for your faithfulness in prayer.

    Liked by 3 people

  40. Asking the Lord to give you sleep 6arrows…I am up ….but I am driving nowhere today….I can take a nap later on….hopefully after all your driving you can catch a nap or two…rest well dear sister….

    Liked by 1 person

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