45 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 6-30-16

  1. Good morning everyone.
    I meant to mention this WRT talk about coyotes in town, but forgot.
    Day before yesterday, we saw a doe and her fawn outside our kitchen window. In the neighbors yard. That would not have been unusual in Hendersonville,, but this is suburban Greensboro.
    ,

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  2. It’s been an hour guys.
    Get with it.
    I’m off to get a haircut. I’ve never had such commotion about a medium trim before.
    When I hit Lackland AFB in 1949, they marched me into a giant barbershop and cut off all of my hair. Cost me $0.50.

    Liked by 5 people

  3. Good morning, Chas, & whoever else may be around.

    Genesis 3:6 says, “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.”

    I’ve always taken the “who was with her” to mean he was in the general area, but didn’t necessarily hear the words of the serpent. But someone recently said that it meant that Adam was right there beside her, & would have heard the words.

    What do you all think about this? Do you think Adam heard the words & was tempted himself, or do you think he was “with her” in the sense of being in the general area?

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  4. I’m going to head to the kitchen for a second cup of coffee while pondering Karen’s question….hmmmmm
    The clouds are moving in but the sun is shining through thus far….we are in for a couple days of heavy rain around here….now for that coffee……

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  5. I don’t know the scholarly answer to your question Karen, but I will give you my thoughts. If the Bible says he was with her, then he was with her. Taking this view, then yes he did hear the words of the serpent. He may have been waiting to see what she would do or he may have been tempted himself. Had she said no, he may have resisted himself, but because she didn’t, he ate of the fruit too.
    I have always had difficulty with Adam blaming Eve, he had free will. He could have said no. I also know human nature. We all have “group mentality”. I know I have been in situations where I wouldn’t have done what I did if others hadn’t been doing it too. Sometimes it is good–I got out of my comfort zone and did some challenging things at JH Ranch that I wouldn’t have volunteered to do if I had been alone. Sometimes it is bad- Sure I will call in sick to work and we can go sailing. Sure, I am on a diet but I will have cake with everyone at the office because hey the cake is here…it’s just a slice of cake…it won’t matter.

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  6. Very disturbing around here yesterday. Ten year old was reading a book to me and laughing, can you believe it? laughing in a section about killing and guns. Awful. And it was right in a children’s book. The title? The Cat in the Hat Comes Back. Guns and killing. Right there for his poor little innocent eyes to read.

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  7. I’m thinking it would be helpful for someone with knowledge of the original language to weigh in on Karen’s question. Many times our Pastor has explained the nuances of Greek to us, where a word has no direct translation and could end up misleading. For instance (and I’m not saying this is the case) the word here *may* have implied “with her in the Garden” and not necessarily right there with her. I’ll e-mail him and ask.

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  8. We just got home from an early trip to get Art’s CT scan. When you leave a few minutes after 6:30 a.m., the traffic is very light.

    I am reading a new book for review, Unanswered, by Jeremiah Johnston. The author founded the Christian Thinkers Society. The book addresses questions that church members may have and want answers to, but never get answered sufficiently from church leadership. The author got his Doctorate at Oxford in England and now is at Houston Baptist. I have just gotten into the book, but think it could appeal to some here on the blog.

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  9. Agree with Linda, it would be good to know what the meanings were in the original language in this case. If it was the case that he was “there” there, I wouldn’t think his sin was a lack of leadership, but rather in being complicit in the act of disobedience.

    I understand that “Adam blaming Eve” has been a stumbling block for women critical of the Bible in recent years but it seemed to me they were reading something into it that wasn’t really there (I had a feminist friend who took great issue with that — and perhaps the church did put undo blame on Eve in previous generations, I’m not sure). But I see it more as highlighting the truth that we all have a tendency to blame someone (or something) else for our sin. It’s human nature, male or female.

    Second roofer is coming in about an hour — the first estimate (though not in writing yet) was pretty low. And the guy comes recommended by my dog park friend in real estate who is knowledgable. He could start July 11 which also is appealing. And he is the sole support of a disabled child (his wife stays at home caring for him), they live inland quite a ways where housing is more affordable and it sounds like he’d be happy to get the job. So I guess I’m already leaning toward him.

    Ah, 2nd guy just called to reschedule for Friday, he had to pick a friend up from the hospital this morning.

    Chas, you make me laugh about the haircut. How times have changed. We’ll domesticate you yet.

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  10. Not that this is definitive, but a note on this verse in the Amplified Version says, “This may have been sometime later. Jewish tradition said that Adam was absent at the time of Eve’s conversation with the serpent (according to the Talmud).”

    Donna – I’ve read quotes from maybe a couple centuries ago or so (maybe not that long ago?) that blamed women for sin, since Eve was tempted by the serpent, & sinned first. I guess they ignored that Adam was merely tempted by a woman. 😉

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  11. Reply from my Pastor, “I checked the Hebrew and had a friend do the same. There is nothing special about the phraseology or context that would suggest Adam is just somewhere in the garden. The phrase in Hebrew means plainly with her, as in, right there beside her. The phrase is a fairly common construction and because there is nothing to indicate it should be read differently I would suggest it’s meaning is that Adam and Eve are there together eating the fruit.”

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  12. I need a couple Beta readers for the essay I need to turn in this evening. Anyone have time or interest to read six pages and comment back to me? If so, send me an email either at the address you have for me or via my website contact form: http://michelleule.com/contact/

    I would need your reaction–good or bad, but particularly if you have questions or don’t think I’m clear–by 3 o’clock. My current time is 7:30 AM

    Thanks

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  13. I think I’ve become mean, cranky and feminist-leaning in my old age. When MEN point out to me that WOMEN are the cause of all the grief, I think, “I see. And you have no sin or free choice of your own?”

    Trying to pin all the problems of the world on women is to not “man up” to your own personal responsibilities–or something like that. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

    The turn around question–so, what if Adam had eaten the fruit first? Would that mean women are justified in saying, “I told you so,” forever?

    Grrrrr.

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  14. After my second cup of coffee and pondering, it occurs to me that it matters not if Adam was sitting next to her or in anothe part of the garden…although it does say he was with her. Bottom line is…they both rebelled against God….they both knew what was spoken by Him concerning the fruit of the tree…they both failed…they both rebelled….they both sinned….
    Just as it continues today…we all have choices…..whether it is amongst the crowds or all alone…we alone are responsible…the onus is on us!

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  15. Linda – Thanks. I always took it to mean he was somewhere around, but not “right there”, since the conversation was between Eve & the serpent. (Like how a husband can be with his wife in a store, but she’s in one department & he’s in another.)

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  16. Karen, Adam was certainly with Eve, but in the NT, Paul points out that Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn’t (I Timothy 2:13-14). On other words, Eve ate because she honestly thought that the serpent was correct, but Adam just ate. Now, both of them sinned and both had consequences as a result, though Adam, due to the fact that he was the head, passed his sin to his descendants, while Eve, who was given the gift (now marred by consequences) of bearing children, was told that gift would be the means of finally defeating the serpent.

    As to Adam’s automatic betrayal of Eve, I’ve heard a lot of (male) pastors point out that that this is the start of the male tendency to blame things on women. I’ve mentioned before that in Islam (Muslims believe the story of Adam and Eve), the woman is seen as the source of evil and I’ve encountered medieval church writings which say the same thing. I see that tendency in the whole modesty issue, when men tell women to cover up more – whether it is an Islamic state demanding all women wear burkas or a conservative church deacon scolding a young woman for the skirt that is a couple of inches above the knee – so that men won’t be tempted to lust. Other, wiser, Christian men have pointed out that Christ placed the responsibility of the sin of lust on the man who looks at a woman to lust after her (Matthew 5:27-28). This is not saying woman can wear anything at all, but, as the burka example demonstrates, a woman can be completely covered and men will still lust. It is interesting to note in the law, if a man seduces an unmarried woman, he has to either marry her (and never divorce her) or pay the bride price (Exodus 22:16-17, Deuteronomy 22:28-29); while in I Corinthians 7:10-11, the husband is flatly forbidden to ever abandon his wife. God noticed that tendency to blame women and kept correcting it.

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  17. Roscuro – I am seeing it now, but as I said, I always took it a different way, since Adam wasn’t mentioned until Eve gave him the fruit. Yes, both men & women are equally guilty of sin, despite the human (not necessarily male) tendency to blame someone else.

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  18. Sin is sin in God’s eyes, and all have sinned except Jesus. Our scarlet S is turned to a white S only by the blood of Jesus (sinner to saint). If not Adam and Eve, it would have been us, as Donna referred to good old human nature (or the fleshly self).

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  19. Have I mentioned that I have ceased to comment on any of YF’s political or social issue posts? But I decided to still try to respond to things she may post that misrepresent the Christian faith, or Jesus Himself, since she still claims to be a Christian.

    Unfortunately, her cousin, a young man who thinks his knowledge of the Bible is superior & deeper than mine (or any other Bible-believing Christian, it would seem), keeps throwing in his 2 cents, & it is not helpful.

    His latest comment, after I shared a bit about the biblical view of slavery. . .

    “You can pretend the bible doesn’t condone slavery, but it definitely does. There are many, many examples.

    As I mentioned there were a lot of rules for Jews to own Jews, but not too many for Jews that own non-Jews.

    Here’s Moses speaking on behalf of God for slavery with regards to the nation of Midian – from Numbers 31 (KJV):
    “17. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

    18. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

    In other words, kill all the boys and non-virgin girls. And keep the girls as sex slaves.

    Here’s an example from the section you quoted in Exodus 21:
    “20. Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result

    21. but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”

    Notice “the slave is their property”. This is very much like owning Africans. Yes, you couldn’t kill them, but you could brutally beat them as long as they didn’t cause permanent damage.

    I’m sorry – there is no justification for these types of verses and there’s nothing you can say to make that sound moral. You can pretend it’s a good book but it’s not.

    Owning people is wrong. Period.

    Genocide is wrong. Period.

    The Bible condones slavery and genocide. Therefore the Bible is evil.

    Yes, I agree, it evolves with the times and the NT is a bit softer, but that’s only because the book was written by men and men over the ages have gotten a bit better. But, we should view it as a sickness of the past and as an example to be better than. It’s a lesson about our terrible history and not a moral compass.”

    *sigh*

    I had hoped to be able to steer YF in a more biblical direction in her views, or at the very least point out where she errs sometimes, but his “contributions” just muddy it all up, & she is more apt to believe him than me. I guess that is the last “clue” I need to tell me to give it up.

    God have mercy on their souls.

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  20. Interesting links and discussions on here the past few days, but I’ve not had time to participate.

    Quick change of subject: May I request of Mumsee, or anyone else who uses teff, some good recipes? Thanks.

    6

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  21. Karen, those Midianite girls were to be treated by the rules that we mentioned a couple of days ago, in other words, they were to be made wives, not sex slaves. There was also this law:

    If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty, then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offense. Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight. (Deuteronomy 25:1-3)

    It does not specifically relate to slaves, but it puts to rest the notion that brutal beatings of slaves were fine so long as they were not killed. I have read several Bible teachers who point out that much of the Mosaic Law is case law, based on decisions from cases that were brought to Moses to decide (Exodus 18:13). Christ indicates this when, in talking about divorce, he said that Moses permitted it “for the hardness of your heart.” So, when it addresses subjects, like all decisions handed down by high courts, it does not always address the morality of the issue itself. So, the law of Moses did not completely rebuild the honour-based society to which it was given; because, in order to completely rebuild a society, the hearts of every man must be changed – and God bluntly told them that their hearts were not changed (Deuteronomy 31:27). Once again, in the NT, while slaves and masters who were Christians were to treat each other with mutual respect, and the masters were forbidden from cruelly treating their slaves, but neither Christ nor Paul was intent on changing the fabric of Roman society. It is highly significant, however, that Paul, while telling Christians to be content in the state in which they were called, does tell slaves, “but if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.” (I Corinthians 7:21).

    The Gospel of Christ is not a social gospel, in the sense that Christ came to make life on earth to be perfect. We still wait, along with the entire creation, for the resurrection (Romans 8:21-22). It is the law of God, written in every man’s heart (Romans 2:14-15), which makes even this young man cry out against enslavement and slaughter of other human beings created in the image of God (Genesis 9:5-6). Yet, this young man fails to realize, that even within himself, that same capacity to treat his fellow humans so terribly is there (Matthew 23:29-33) and that this world offers no cure for the disease of humanity’s evil. Christians share the capacity for evil with the rest of humanity in their flesh (Romans 8:12-13), but we have been given the Spirit of God. We are the ones who demonstrate to the world that one can live in freedom, but refuse to use that freedom to excuse or cover evil and selfishness (I Peter 2:15-16). The difference in our lives acts as an outward conscience in the societies in which we live (I Peter 2:12); but when the Christians begin to abuse their fellow humans, to eat and drink with the drunken (Matthew 24:46-48), then the salt has lost its savour, and is good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under men’s feet (Matthew 5:13). Then society has lost that influence for good, and will swiftly turn and feed its evil. In many ways, like the time when the Southern Baptist denomination chose to separate from its northern brethren and support slavery (for which it has publicly repented now), the church can hasten the demise of the culture in which it lives by refusing to live obediently as Christians. We are only salt, we are only light when we live and walk in the Spirit of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, God’s Son. As to YF and her male acquaintance, do not worry, “having a good conscience, that, though they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good lifestyle in Christ.” (I Peter 3:16)

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  22. Thanks, Roscuro, for that further explanation. I had not read that before. Very interesting.

    We can study & read about the Bible our whole lives, & still steadily learn new information & insights.

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  23. Never mind, Mumsee. I saw you just now over on the prayer thread — you’ve got enough on your plate without having to answer my question above.

    And Third Arrow found what sounds like a delicious chocolate teff pudding recipe. 🙂

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  24. I should add that the 10 commandments given by God were the underlying moral foundation in Moses’s law. In saying that the decisions handed down did not necessarily make statements about the morality of underlying issues, I did not mean that Moses law wasn’t moral. Clearly, as it was given under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, it was. Rather, that just as decisions handed down by courts today can be very narrow in their focus, only deciding right or wrong in a given instance, and not speaking to the morality of the wider framework in which the case occurred, so it would seem that the case law sections of the law did the same thing. The divorce case law is an example of that. Clearly, from the words of Christ, marriage was intended to be permanent; but Moses, in deciding how divorce should occur in a society which already practiced divorce, set rules in order to prevent people from breaking the seventh commandment, but did not attempt to address the wider moral issue that marriage was permanent.

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  25. Anyone who blames Eve and not Adam for the Fall has not read the New Testament, because it blames Adam and not Eve. Why was Jesus born of a virgin? Because sin comes through the man. That isn’t anti-male (we were redeemed by a Man), but it kicks against an anti-female instinct.

    Our own culture has a pretty anti-mail bias, now, though, so I’d be careful. My husband and I were listening to a nature program about alligators the other day, for instance, and the presenter (a woman) was joking about how alligator babies celebrate Mother’s Day because their mother is so good to them, but they do nothing for Father’s Day because their father will eat them if he gets a chance. Well, that gets a lot of laughs, but it says nothing whatsoever about whether a gator is a good father because he won’t recognize (and protect) his own offspring. God gave that job to female alligators, not to males. Cardinal fathers are quite protective of their young, and seahorse fathers (and not mothers) are the ones who nurture the young. Different species play their roles in different ways, and that’s fine. But we’re in a culture that is reflexively pro-female (though anti-mothering . . . pro-female as long as the said female is in competition with men).

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  26. Roscuro – Regarding what you said about some of the laws being like case law, does that idea negate or modify in any way our belief that the Bible is God-inspired? I think some could see it that way.

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  27. KIm…me,me,me!!!! We are nearing the end of the second week of retirement…it’s not been horrible, but I tell you today I thought I would lose my mind!! Now if you are needing to be bailed out, perhaps I could sneak off and head to Alabama!! 😛

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  28. Although I mainly use Google Chrome, I was on Firefox for a bit, as there are a couple things that work better on it. One of those little white boxes popped up, saying something about downloading a Firefox patch. So I hit “download”, or whatever the button said, & then saved it to the computer.

    A minute or so later, a page came up in a tab, seeming to be from Firefox, & looking just like a Firefox page, saying that there was an urgent problem to fix. Before doing anything, I glanced at the URL. It did not saying either Firefox or Mozilla, & was a long address. I quickly closed the tab, & deleted the download.

    Now I am running an anti-virus scan.

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  29. I’m back from walking the dogs through “Coyote” Park (where the first thing that greeted us was some coyote scat). We took our time, watching the ducks and other wildlife in the pond. It felt very peaceful.

    (Karen, I got one of those urgent messages on my computer a few months ago, the whole thing went wacky — photo editor who fixed it for me found several malware and said those “call this number” messages were real scams as then they were able to really get into your computer.)

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  30. I didn’t call the number, btw — but had malware on the computer anyway

    6 arrows, hope the computer will revive — maybe it just needs to sleep a while

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