REDLANDS (CBSLA.com) — Authorities on Wednesday night continued to investigate a Redlands home tied to Syed Farook, a suspect identified in connection with the mass shootings that killed at least 14 people and injured at least 17 people at a social services center in San Bernardino on Wednesday morning
………………….
A man who has been working in the area said he noticed a half-dozen Middle Eastern men in the area in recent weeks, but decided not to report anything since he did not wish to racially profile those people.
Chas, Interesting, as I’ve had this thought, myself. How do we reconcile racially (or any other group) “profiling” with “if you see something, say something”?
Speaking of Planned Parenthood … One of the earlier news tweets I saw said that the shooting site was only about 2 miles away from the local Planned Parenthood. 🙄 Trying to set an agenda?
Meanwhile, prayer in general — and Christians in particular — took a beating through it all. Check out the NY Daily News cover today:
” … the Daily News’s anti-Christian take on the murders was not limited to that paper, but rather was the main theme of the Left yesterday. All over Twitter, liberals, seemingly in coordinated fashion, mocked prayer and explicitly or implicitly contrasted the futility of religion with the certitudes of gun control. … It was a disgusting display …”
Leaving a baby also perplexes me — and that both parents were involved. One person going off the Islamic deep end you can understand, but 2 (relatively) newlyweds who now have a 6-month-old? 😦 😦
This pretty strongly points to terrorism, of course, but there are some real oddities about it that make it an ill fit for some of our established templates for these things. And the fact that he worked for the department he “shot up” does also raise the question of what that relationship was like …
Was the chosen venue just convenience combined with a soft target? Or was there a dual motive in there somewhere, a falling out with a supervisor or co-workers that may have made choosing this particular target for their terrorism even more personally appealing?
I’m sure we’ll know a lot more about all of this by the end of the day.
Meanwhile, our inland papers (there are 9 papers in our LA group) did an amazing job yesterday with such small staffs. The LA Times had 15 people covering the story, we had but a handful but they held their own beautifully.
It’s the official line already, along with of course, calls for more gun control.
Ignore the body armor, assault rifles and explosives, as well as the black outfits like ISIS wears, the devout muslim part, his trip to Saudi Arabia, the fact that neighbors say he was in the garage ’til late at night recently, the middle eastern men visiting recently as well.
Just close your eyes and tell yourself gun restrictions will fix this.
I’m thinking he was planning something anyway, and the fight set him off early. I’d be very concerned about those recent visitors now. These two may very well have been part of something much bigger.
And I have zero faith in Obama to handle this properly, because as he’s already shown, he has an agenda here. The same old tired one. Plus you know that like Ft. Hood, he’s reluctant to admit Islamic terrorism happens here. Zero trust in O to do the right thing here.
Another thing I’ve noticed last night and this morning……..
I have MSN as my homepage. Lot’s of stories last night and today, some from Reuters, The NY Times, AP, and the like. But they all seem to be missing the comment sections which usually accompany their news stories. They seem intent on bashing Republicans, the NRA, and Christians for having the audacity to pray about it, while insisting the motives of the perps are unknown, and they ain’t gonna allow any views to the contrary. Sad.
The MSM likes to try and force politicians to take a stand before all the facts are known. Conservatives are a little more likely to want to wait for all the facts, because when they are wrong they get beat up for it. So calling for prayer is a safe bet for the moment.
But what about Planned Parenthood being just 2 miles away? 😉 Link??
I still come back to my belief that there’s something spiritually larger going on with these mass shootings (which are taking place during an era when gun laws are stricter than they’ve ever been before, frankly).
I can’t help but feel it’s part of the larger picture in our spiritual decline. Judgement? God actively choosing not to restrain the evil among us?
And it’s interesting that in the wake of these events, there is no coming together anymore. In fact, the division and anger that now run so rampant in the U.S. are only heightened, threatening to reach a breaking point. I fear that a 9/11 would probably result in a fierce lashing out among us — not against the perpetrators, but against each other.
While I don’t know God’s purpose in all of this, I do know that He is sovereign — and so there IS a purpose, as painful as it all is.
As of late last night they still hadn’t gotten to the bodies left inside (it took hours for authorities to clear the building of anything suspicious by way of devices).
And I can’t help but think about the many family members who will get their most dreaded news today. 😦
San Bernardino, California (CNN) [Breaking news update at 12:13 p.m. ET]
San Bernardino shooter Syed Rizwan Farook was in touch over the phone and via social media with more than one international terrorism subject who the FBI were already investigating, law enforcement officials said.
It appears that Farook was radicalized, which contributed to his motive, though other things — like workplace grievances — may have also played a role, other law enforcement sources said.
Wonder how much the grandmother knew? I read one article that said they all lived together — so was she aware of all the weaponry in the house?? Sheesh. And from today’s news conference, it said they fired something like 75 rounds but had 1,600 rounds on them (!!!??). Yikes.
But on to Obama …
WSJ column today on that “hope and change” president and what the heck happened.
We are near the end of the seventh year of Barack Obama’s presidency, and by any measure the United States is a fractured nation. Its people are more divided politically than any time in recent memory. Personally, many are anxious, angry or just down.
Whatever Mr. Obama promised in that famous first Inaugural Address, any sense of a nation united and raised up is gone. This isn’t normal second-term blues. It’s a sense of bust. …
…. Liberals think the right is gloating at Mr. Obama’s end-of-term difficulties. No one is gloating. The nation is either furious (the right) or depressed (the left) at eight wasted, wheel-spinning years whose main achievement is ObamaCare—a morass.
Mr. Obama will go off to do something else, but he leaves behind a country littered with public and private institutions in disrepute. Whatever the cumulative causes for this, a president bears responsibility for maintaining some bedrock level of respect for institutions that are the necessary machinery of the nation’s daily life.
Instead, Mr. Obama spent much of his presidency vilifying the private sector—banks, insurers, energy producers and utilities. …
Mr. Obama has repeatedly mocked institutions he didn’t control and abused the powers of those he did. Almost always, the ridicule and condescension came in front of cheering audiences. …
_______________________________________________
He gets 72 wide eyed virgins and the ability to intercede for 7 people.
She gets that ability to intercede, but I’ve never been clear on what else a woman martyr gets.
The baby, if it leaves the family, will not be adopted by a Christian family. Our country believes in keeping cultural lines in place. Of course, God can certainly intervene….
We were discussing with the boys, the disturbing manner in which homosexuals are being treated in Syria and other places. We talked about how odd it was that adult males are allowed to molest young boys, and when the young boys grow up thinking it is the way to go, they are brutally killed. Bizarre. Anyway, I may have suggested that it is possible the seventy two virgins are male.
It is a strange, sad story. Personal vengeance cloaked under religious fervour is not an uncommon scenario. The Sudanese Christian woman who was under sentence of death for apostasy before being rescued by Western diplomacy had been turned in by her own half siblings who wanted her business (in polygamous cultures, half-siblings may be more bitter enemies than unrelated strangers – witness Joseph and his half-brothers).
Mumsee, to continue the discussion from last night, when I said that honour culture predates Islam, I didn’t mean that they got their ideas from the Old Testament. The Pentateuch contains records of the honour culture because Abraham and the rest of the Patriarchs lived within an honour-based culture. It was the custom of the people around them. God showed first the Jews, and then the Christians another way of treating people. I like to put it this way, honour culture is the default position of society. Thus, similar honour based systems are found worldwide. The duels of noble European society and the feuds of Southern U.S. families had their origin in the concept of honour. When Japan’s markets collapsed in the 1990’s, there were reports of top financial executives who committed suicide because they had lost face, in other words they were dishonoured. Honour culture seems to be stronger in tribal societies, probably because other social systems are not strong enough to keep order. So in places like the Arabian peninsula, until very recently the tribal customs that were in place when Abraham wandered like the Bedouins, were still in place. The rapid economic changes that happened in a mere half-century in that area did not change the ancient culture so quickly – although, it is changing. That is what I meant by honour culture predating Islam. Islam was developed by a culture that already held honour as their code.
Chas, I think it is true that our increased ability to be economically independent of our family and community has in some measure helped to mitigate honour culture. For example, when one is no longer dependent on the blessing and inheritance of one’s parents, one no longer has to seek their support for one’s choice of a marriage partner (recent reports of honour killings have been of parents killing a daughter who defied them on who she decided to marry). I also think that as Christians have been salt and light in their communities, it has influenced non-Christians to imbibe certain Christian principles. Christianity’s influence has helped to change not only obvious injustices such as slavery (a part of nearly every ancient culture) but also more subtly the attitude towards children and personal responsibility (and thus personal autonomy). That isn’t to say people from honour culture are incapable of loving their children, but rather, their expectations of their children are different, as they tend to view them as possessions (beloved ones, usually) rather than autonomous human beings who bear their own responsibility to God. Paul’s instructions to children to obey their parents emphasized that parental authority was God’s original order, but then, when he told fathers not to exasperate their children, that was unprecedented. Not even the Mosaic law went that far – although Moses made parents put a rebellious child on trial, rather than simply killing him as would be done in honour culture.
I was just thinking that Ricky’s favorite Western, The Searchers is a good example of honour culture within the U.S. In the film, John Wayne portrays a Texan searching for his niece who was captured by an Apache tribe. In the dialogue, he expresses his desire to find her before she became old enough to be married to an Apache warrior. If, when he found her, she had been married to a warrior, he said he would kill her, rather than she should suffer the dishonour of having been a savage’s wife. [Spoiler alert] When he finally does find her, she has been married, but his love proves too great for his sense of honour and he brings her home rather than killing her. It is a small picture of how the love of Christ can overcome even our deeply imbibed cultural conventions.
KBells, I would agree in a sense. Although, that problem is not limited to just Islam. Those missionary stories that I grew up hearing from places like India and tropical Africa and South America would indicate that the fearful superstitions of most unbelievers in ancient cultures will get in the way of them being able to understand the truth – whether it is the ultimate truth of the gospel, or the scientific truth that illness is caused by germs, not evil spirits.
I think we all have a hint of honor culture in us. Protecting those we love, and yet, letting them know when they displease us. Hopefully, that does not lead to killing anybody.
What do we do with 2 John which seems to tell us not even to let somebody who teaches a different Jesus, to enter our homes? And yet, as you said, if we only help those who love us, we are no better than the unbeliever.
It’s mind-boggling to listen to the news reports & heated arguments that ensue. Sad days for this country, I’ll tell you. We are very vulnerable right now and our enemies know it. Seems like we’re ripe for collapse should this trend continue.
While the couple’s choice of this venue (and maybe even the timing) may have involved some resentment against hubby’s employer, remember that he & his gun-toting wifey had amassed a war-sized arsenal back at home. Gee, think maybe they had a few other plans in the works?
So saying this is a hybrid motive doesn’t mean it’s 50-50. Based on what we know, this primarily was driven by radical Islam, but the office gathering maybe afforded them a convenient (and sufficiently soft) target. No one seemed to be targeted there, reports are that they “sprayed” the crowd indiscriminately.
Whether they planned on doing that — or decided to do it after something happened there that irked them sufficiently remains unknown.
Mumsee, viewing honour culture through the lens Os Guinness pointed out – that unbelievers suppress the truth but can never get totally away from it – it does have some good points. They expect their children to obey, they expect women to be sexually pure (and men, though there is more of a blind eye turned to men’s little flings), in short, they have a code of morality. However, it falls short, as every system does; and where it falls short is it has no redemption. The example of the uncle who would rather his niece die than be defiled stands in opposition to God’s redemption of ‘fallen’ women such as Rahab and the woman who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears.
In reference to the II John passage, the easy answer is those instructions apply to heretical teachers within Christianity. It obviously does not apply to unbelievers in general, for, as Paul said in I Corinthians 5, if we were never to keep company with those outside the church, we would have to exit the world. However, there is another point we should consider, and which I was reminded of recently. Since 9/11, there seems to be a popular trend for Christians to dialogue with Muslims about their respective faiths. Some of that is fine, especially as an evangelical tool – Jesus held a brief conversation with the Samaritan woman about her differing views on religion, which He used to direct her to the truth. But it becomes problematic when a pastor gives an imam (or a rabbi, or a guru, etc.) an equal platform in his own pulpit. In a recent incident – after the Paris attacks – some arsonist torched a mosque in a city in Southern Ontario. It was rightly condemned. However, several churches offered to allow the mosque to use their buildings. We should support the right of other religions to worship freely, but that does not mean that our house of worship should become theirs. If it had been a Muslim family whose house was burned, then, absolutely yes, the church should offer to house them. Incidentally, a synagogue also came forward with an offer of accommodation to the mosque, which was accepted.
In your region there are a lot of Mormons. How would you treat them in light of II John?
The idea that disarming the population will make us safer is deeply flawed thinking. It’s pretty easy to blame the theological liberals that think all religions are equal (either equally true or equally false) and enlightenment secularists who have no meaningful basis for distinguishing between good and evil. There’s some truth in that. But all things are in the hands of our God and if he has seen fit to leave us open to the stripes of our enemies then he will also be our ultimate recourse. When a people veer away from the path laid by the Lord our God the consequences in history are predictable: nations will fall, families will be broken, empires will crumble. We will be chased from every side and one of them will put to flight our hundred. Living in fear is a classic provocation by God toward the repentance of a people gone astray. We might not be personally astray nor even as a community but in the larger scope we all share in the sins of our people. So we implore God to have mercy even in the face of such impudent apostasy and to not punish the innocent with the guilty – but in the end he will do with men and nations whatever is right to him. And he is good.
Donna, Amen, especially to the last two sentences.
I don’t think that it is the end, yet, for the U.S. Rome didn’t fall in a year, or even in a decade, after all. We should remember, all of us who love our countries, that, in the end, every country is doomed to fall. That is why we seek the kingdom of God first.
Phos, or the Jehova’s Witnesses who come by every month. They always comment that they know I am a follower of the Bible, yet I never let them into my house. They have come in before, just walking in and showing up in the living room. I do greet them at the door and wait for opportunity to insert a bit of Gospel. But they teach a different Jesus, a different gospel. The Mormons again teach a different gospel, a different Jesus. Well, the Muslims believe in Jesus. They believe he is coming back. But it is a different Jesus. A different gospel.
I have had JW’s in the house as well as Mormons and Muslims. I have discussed the Truth with them. But, I suspect, there is a bit of pearls in that and we need to let it go. Not that we should ever ignore an opportunity to share the Truth, but that we should not get mired in fruitless argument.
Again, if there was a Muslim family in the neighborhood in need of lodging, I would be there to offer it to them. And I do not like what I see in the suffering of refugee “camps”. I also have incredibly gullible children. They try to convince me that the Muslims are just real nice people. I already know that! It is the belief system I am concerned about. I want all Muslims to be saved from it. And I believe God can do that and He may use us to do it. I don’t know. But, I do believe people need to open their eyes to what is being taught. I don’t know what is being taught in every mosque but I do know what it says (at least, what I can remember) and though there is a lot of good stuff, there is some definite bad and twisting of the Truth.
I agree, roscuro, and it definitely feels as if the U.S. is in a free-fall, accelerated to be sure right now and clearly (from appearances, revival may come & the course of history may change) part of the end painfully playing out. But it won’t happen overnight. Several more generations may have to suffer through the final death throes. 😦
I’m reading Mohler’s new book on gay marriage — talk about a sweeping, unprecedented and complete turnaround in a culture — and nothing really happens in a vacuum or suddenly. These things take decades, sometimes centuries of changes to finally culminate.
“Donna, I can’t resist. Surely in the U.S., the massing of military grade weapons is merely exercising one’s right to bear arms?”
Guns aren’t the problem, human nature and their disgusting religion is the problem…. 🙄
Maybe we should make importing muslim immigrants illegal too, since that seems to be a bigger part of the problem. Let’s throw in their liberal enablers too, and I guess we have to throw in pipes and nails too, since you can make bombs out of ’em…..
Come on, Donna, it is not that hard. A couple of folk with ties to extremist groups, arsenal of weapons, IED stuff = workplace violence. Mentally deranged old white guy mumbling things about baby parts by a facility that kills babies, shooting people = terrorist activity. Try to keep up.
Well, I understand not wanting to “rush to judgement” — but I really don’t remember that being a concern after the Planned Parenthood shooting. What’s up with that?
Donna, you go to work. Don’t you have office parties? Doesn’t everybody show up with a couple of AR-15’s and some pistols and lots of ammo, just in case somebody says something and needs to be dealt with? This is America after all. And you do live in the West.
The most excitement we’ve had at an office party lately was when one of the young reporters drank way too much champagne (during our Pulitzer celebration) and proceeded to speak her mind to the executive editor. Cutely, though.
It was hilarious and painful all at once.
But no guns were involved. And she’s given up alcohol.
Now I hear that the problem the terrorist had at work was with a co-worker, a Christian, who argued with him once about whether Islam was really a peaceful religion.
From Powerline: “The evidence continues to accumulate that the Bonnie and Clyde massacre in San Bernardino yesterday was a case of jihad. We’ve got the home armory. We’ve got the pilgrimage to Mecca. We’ve got the contact with foreign terrorist subjects. Sherlock Holmes solved the case in the story ‘Silver Blaze’ with the clue of the dog that didn’t bark. The San Bernardino dog won’t shut up. …”
Wandering Views 
Using children and a gender war makes for the latest Hillary ad. Disgusting and very low class.
LikeLike
REDLANDS (CBSLA.com) — Authorities on Wednesday night continued to investigate a Redlands home tied to Syed Farook, a suspect identified in connection with the mass shootings that killed at least 14 people and injured at least 17 people at a social services center in San Bernardino on Wednesday morning
………………….
A man who has been working in the area said he noticed a half-dozen Middle Eastern men in the area in recent weeks, but decided not to report anything since he did not wish to racially profile those people.
LikeLike
Chas, Interesting, as I’ve had this thought, myself. How do we reconcile racially (or any other group) “profiling” with “if you see something, say something”?
LikeLike
The baby makes it incomprehensible to me. 😦
Daughter was on standby, but did not go.
Relatives in area were extremely upset. 😦
LikeLike
Chas, remember Clock Boy. See something, say something could cost you 15 million.
LikeLiked by 1 person
KBells,I was just going to say that. You beat me to it. 😆
but it isn’t funny, is it?
But if it’s a white guy shooting up Planned Parenthood, you’re safe.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Speaking of Planned Parenthood … One of the earlier news tweets I saw said that the shooting site was only about 2 miles away from the local Planned Parenthood. 🙄 Trying to set an agenda?
Meanwhile, prayer in general — and Christians in particular — took a beating through it all. Check out the NY Daily News cover today:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/allah-will-not-help-us.php
” … the Daily News’s anti-Christian take on the murders was not limited to that paper, but rather was the main theme of the Left yesterday. All over Twitter, liberals, seemingly in coordinated fashion, mocked prayer and explicitly or implicitly contrasted the futility of religion with the certitudes of gun control. … It was a disgusting display …”
Indeed.
LikeLike
Leaving a baby also perplexes me — and that both parents were involved. One person going off the Islamic deep end you can understand, but 2 (relatively) newlyweds who now have a 6-month-old? 😦 😦
This pretty strongly points to terrorism, of course, but there are some real oddities about it that make it an ill fit for some of our established templates for these things. And the fact that he worked for the department he “shot up” does also raise the question of what that relationship was like …
Was the chosen venue just convenience combined with a soft target? Or was there a dual motive in there somewhere, a falling out with a supervisor or co-workers that may have made choosing this particular target for their terrorism even more personally appealing?
I’m sure we’ll know a lot more about all of this by the end of the day.
Meanwhile, our inland papers (there are 9 papers in our LA group) did an amazing job yesterday with such small staffs. The LA Times had 15 people covering the story, we had but a handful but they held their own beautifully.
LikeLike
Work place violence folks…..
Now move along…….
Nothing to see here…….
It’s the official line already, along with of course, calls for more gun control.
Ignore the body armor, assault rifles and explosives, as well as the black outfits like ISIS wears, the devout muslim part, his trip to Saudi Arabia, the fact that neighbors say he was in the garage ’til late at night recently, the middle eastern men visiting recently as well.
Just close your eyes and tell yourself gun restrictions will fix this.
I’m thinking he was planning something anyway, and the fight set him off early. I’d be very concerned about those recent visitors now. These two may very well have been part of something much bigger.
And I have zero faith in Obama to handle this properly, because as he’s already shown, he has an agenda here. The same old tired one. Plus you know that like Ft. Hood, he’s reluctant to admit Islamic terrorism happens here. Zero trust in O to do the right thing here.
LikeLike
Another thing I’ve noticed last night and this morning……..
I have MSN as my homepage. Lot’s of stories last night and today, some from Reuters, The NY Times, AP, and the like. But they all seem to be missing the comment sections which usually accompany their news stories. They seem intent on bashing Republicans, the NRA, and Christians for having the audacity to pray about it, while insisting the motives of the perps are unknown, and they ain’t gonna allow any views to the contrary. Sad.
LikeLike
The MSM likes to try and force politicians to take a stand before all the facts are known. Conservatives are a little more likely to want to wait for all the facts, because when they are wrong they get beat up for it. So calling for prayer is a safe bet for the moment.
LikeLike
We can solve the work place violence, don’t let anybody work!
LikeLiked by 2 people
But what about Planned Parenthood being just 2 miles away? 😉 Link??
I still come back to my belief that there’s something spiritually larger going on with these mass shootings (which are taking place during an era when gun laws are stricter than they’ve ever been before, frankly).
I can’t help but feel it’s part of the larger picture in our spiritual decline. Judgement? God actively choosing not to restrain the evil among us?
And it’s interesting that in the wake of these events, there is no coming together anymore. In fact, the division and anger that now run so rampant in the U.S. are only heightened, threatening to reach a breaking point. I fear that a 9/11 would probably result in a fierce lashing out among us — not against the perpetrators, but against each other.
While I don’t know God’s purpose in all of this, I do know that He is sovereign — and so there IS a purpose, as painful as it all is.
As of late last night they still hadn’t gotten to the bodies left inside (it took hours for authorities to clear the building of anything suspicious by way of devices).
And I can’t help but think about the many family members who will get their most dreaded news today. 😦
Sitting in the ashes.
LikeLiked by 1 person
If My people….
LikeLiked by 1 person
San Bernardino, California (CNN) [Breaking news update at 12:13 p.m. ET]
San Bernardino shooter Syed Rizwan Farook was in touch over the phone and via social media with more than one international terrorism subject who the FBI were already investigating, law enforcement officials said.
It appears that Farook was radicalized, which contributed to his motive, though other things — like workplace grievances — may have also played a role, other law enforcement sources said.
LikeLike
I’m wondering if the work place fight was a result of him being on edge about what he was about to do.
LikeLike
Also the baby is probably better off not being raised by these guys. But very sad though.
LikeLike
If you are going to blow up somebody’s world, might as well do it to somebody you are mad at.
LikeLike
Wonder how much the grandmother knew? I read one article that said they all lived together — so was she aware of all the weaponry in the house?? Sheesh. And from today’s news conference, it said they fired something like 75 rounds but had 1,600 rounds on them (!!!??). Yikes.
But on to Obama …
WSJ column today on that “hope and change” president and what the heck happened.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/america-at-obamas-end-1449100772
______________________________________________
We are near the end of the seventh year of Barack Obama’s presidency, and by any measure the United States is a fractured nation. Its people are more divided politically than any time in recent memory. Personally, many are anxious, angry or just down.
Whatever Mr. Obama promised in that famous first Inaugural Address, any sense of a nation united and raised up is gone. This isn’t normal second-term blues. It’s a sense of bust. …
…. Liberals think the right is gloating at Mr. Obama’s end-of-term difficulties. No one is gloating. The nation is either furious (the right) or depressed (the left) at eight wasted, wheel-spinning years whose main achievement is ObamaCare—a morass.
Mr. Obama will go off to do something else, but he leaves behind a country littered with public and private institutions in disrepute. Whatever the cumulative causes for this, a president bears responsibility for maintaining some bedrock level of respect for institutions that are the necessary machinery of the nation’s daily life.
Instead, Mr. Obama spent much of his presidency vilifying the private sector—banks, insurers, energy producers and utilities. …
Mr. Obama has repeatedly mocked institutions he didn’t control and abused the powers of those he did. Almost always, the ridicule and condescension came in front of cheering audiences. …
_______________________________________________
LikeLike
He gets 72 wide eyed virgins and the ability to intercede for 7 people.
She gets that ability to intercede, but I’ve never been clear on what else a woman martyr gets.
LikeLike
I hope a nice Christian couple can adopt the baby.
🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
The intelligent Mollie Hemingway with an interesting perspective on yesterday:
http://thefederalist.com/2015/12/03/the-left-prays-after-san-bernardino-shooting-to-its-god-of-government/
LikeLiked by 3 people
The baby, if it leaves the family, will not be adopted by a Christian family. Our country believes in keeping cultural lines in place. Of course, God can certainly intervene….
LikeLike
We were discussing with the boys, the disturbing manner in which homosexuals are being treated in Syria and other places. We talked about how odd it was that adult males are allowed to molest young boys, and when the young boys grow up thinking it is the way to go, they are brutally killed. Bizarre. Anyway, I may have suggested that it is possible the seventy two virgins are male.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It is a strange, sad story. Personal vengeance cloaked under religious fervour is not an uncommon scenario. The Sudanese Christian woman who was under sentence of death for apostasy before being rescued by Western diplomacy had been turned in by her own half siblings who wanted her business (in polygamous cultures, half-siblings may be more bitter enemies than unrelated strangers – witness Joseph and his half-brothers).
Mumsee, to continue the discussion from last night, when I said that honour culture predates Islam, I didn’t mean that they got their ideas from the Old Testament. The Pentateuch contains records of the honour culture because Abraham and the rest of the Patriarchs lived within an honour-based culture. It was the custom of the people around them. God showed first the Jews, and then the Christians another way of treating people. I like to put it this way, honour culture is the default position of society. Thus, similar honour based systems are found worldwide. The duels of noble European society and the feuds of Southern U.S. families had their origin in the concept of honour. When Japan’s markets collapsed in the 1990’s, there were reports of top financial executives who committed suicide because they had lost face, in other words they were dishonoured. Honour culture seems to be stronger in tribal societies, probably because other social systems are not strong enough to keep order. So in places like the Arabian peninsula, until very recently the tribal customs that were in place when Abraham wandered like the Bedouins, were still in place. The rapid economic changes that happened in a mere half-century in that area did not change the ancient culture so quickly – although, it is changing. That is what I meant by honour culture predating Islam. Islam was developed by a culture that already held honour as their code.
LikeLiked by 1 person
An honor system can’t exist in a mobile society.
If a person is dishonored, he can cut ties and move out of state.
LikeLike
Roscuro, that is one problem with Islam. It keeps people in the past.
LikeLike
Also those family feuds tended to happen in the mountains of West Virgina and Kentucky. Not consider the South by those of us in the South.
LikeLike
Chas, I think it is true that our increased ability to be economically independent of our family and community has in some measure helped to mitigate honour culture. For example, when one is no longer dependent on the blessing and inheritance of one’s parents, one no longer has to seek their support for one’s choice of a marriage partner (recent reports of honour killings have been of parents killing a daughter who defied them on who she decided to marry). I also think that as Christians have been salt and light in their communities, it has influenced non-Christians to imbibe certain Christian principles. Christianity’s influence has helped to change not only obvious injustices such as slavery (a part of nearly every ancient culture) but also more subtly the attitude towards children and personal responsibility (and thus personal autonomy). That isn’t to say people from honour culture are incapable of loving their children, but rather, their expectations of their children are different, as they tend to view them as possessions (beloved ones, usually) rather than autonomous human beings who bear their own responsibility to God. Paul’s instructions to children to obey their parents emphasized that parental authority was God’s original order, but then, when he told fathers not to exasperate their children, that was unprecedented. Not even the Mosaic law went that far – although Moses made parents put a rebellious child on trial, rather than simply killing him as would be done in honour culture.
I was just thinking that Ricky’s favorite Western, The Searchers is a good example of honour culture within the U.S. In the film, John Wayne portrays a Texan searching for his niece who was captured by an Apache tribe. In the dialogue, he expresses his desire to find her before she became old enough to be married to an Apache warrior. If, when he found her, she had been married to a warrior, he said he would kill her, rather than she should suffer the dishonour of having been a savage’s wife. [Spoiler alert] When he finally does find her, she has been married, but his love proves too great for his sense of honour and he brings her home rather than killing her. It is a small picture of how the love of Christ can overcome even our deeply imbibed cultural conventions.
LikeLiked by 2 people
KBells, I would agree in a sense. Although, that problem is not limited to just Islam. Those missionary stories that I grew up hearing from places like India and tropical Africa and South America would indicate that the fearful superstitions of most unbelievers in ancient cultures will get in the way of them being able to understand the truth – whether it is the ultimate truth of the gospel, or the scientific truth that illness is caused by germs, not evil spirits.
LikeLike
I think we all have a hint of honor culture in us. Protecting those we love, and yet, letting them know when they displease us. Hopefully, that does not lead to killing anybody.
What do we do with 2 John which seems to tell us not even to let somebody who teaches a different Jesus, to enter our homes? And yet, as you said, if we only help those who love us, we are no better than the unbeliever.
LikeLike
michelle, I saw the hemingway column, very good.
It’s mind-boggling to listen to the news reports & heated arguments that ensue. Sad days for this country, I’ll tell you. We are very vulnerable right now and our enemies know it. Seems like we’re ripe for collapse should this trend continue.
While the couple’s choice of this venue (and maybe even the timing) may have involved some resentment against hubby’s employer, remember that he & his gun-toting wifey had amassed a war-sized arsenal back at home. Gee, think maybe they had a few other plans in the works?
So saying this is a hybrid motive doesn’t mean it’s 50-50. Based on what we know, this primarily was driven by radical Islam, but the office gathering maybe afforded them a convenient (and sufficiently soft) target. No one seemed to be targeted there, reports are that they “sprayed” the crowd indiscriminately.
Whether they planned on doing that — or decided to do it after something happened there that irked them sufficiently remains unknown.
LikeLike
Mumsee, viewing honour culture through the lens Os Guinness pointed out – that unbelievers suppress the truth but can never get totally away from it – it does have some good points. They expect their children to obey, they expect women to be sexually pure (and men, though there is more of a blind eye turned to men’s little flings), in short, they have a code of morality. However, it falls short, as every system does; and where it falls short is it has no redemption. The example of the uncle who would rather his niece die than be defiled stands in opposition to God’s redemption of ‘fallen’ women such as Rahab and the woman who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears.
In reference to the II John passage, the easy answer is those instructions apply to heretical teachers within Christianity. It obviously does not apply to unbelievers in general, for, as Paul said in I Corinthians 5, if we were never to keep company with those outside the church, we would have to exit the world. However, there is another point we should consider, and which I was reminded of recently. Since 9/11, there seems to be a popular trend for Christians to dialogue with Muslims about their respective faiths. Some of that is fine, especially as an evangelical tool – Jesus held a brief conversation with the Samaritan woman about her differing views on religion, which He used to direct her to the truth. But it becomes problematic when a pastor gives an imam (or a rabbi, or a guru, etc.) an equal platform in his own pulpit. In a recent incident – after the Paris attacks – some arsonist torched a mosque in a city in Southern Ontario. It was rightly condemned. However, several churches offered to allow the mosque to use their buildings. We should support the right of other religions to worship freely, but that does not mean that our house of worship should become theirs. If it had been a Muslim family whose house was burned, then, absolutely yes, the church should offer to house them. Incidentally, a synagogue also came forward with an offer of accommodation to the mosque, which was accepted.
In your region there are a lot of Mormons. How would you treat them in light of II John?
LikeLike
Donna, I can’t resist. Surely in the U.S., the massing of military grade weapons is merely exercising one’s right to bear arms? 😛
LikeLike
Part of what one of our elders posted online:
The idea that disarming the population will make us safer is deeply flawed thinking. It’s pretty easy to blame the theological liberals that think all religions are equal (either equally true or equally false) and enlightenment secularists who have no meaningful basis for distinguishing between good and evil. There’s some truth in that. But all things are in the hands of our God and if he has seen fit to leave us open to the stripes of our enemies then he will also be our ultimate recourse. When a people veer away from the path laid by the Lord our God the consequences in history are predictable: nations will fall, families will be broken, empires will crumble. We will be chased from every side and one of them will put to flight our hundred. Living in fear is a classic provocation by God toward the repentance of a people gone astray. We might not be personally astray nor even as a community but in the larger scope we all share in the sins of our people. So we implore God to have mercy even in the face of such impudent apostasy and to not punish the innocent with the guilty – but in the end he will do with men and nations whatever is right to him. And he is good.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Donna, Amen, especially to the last two sentences.
I don’t think that it is the end, yet, for the U.S. Rome didn’t fall in a year, or even in a decade, after all. We should remember, all of us who love our countries, that, in the end, every country is doomed to fall. That is why we seek the kingdom of God first.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Phos, or the Jehova’s Witnesses who come by every month. They always comment that they know I am a follower of the Bible, yet I never let them into my house. They have come in before, just walking in and showing up in the living room. I do greet them at the door and wait for opportunity to insert a bit of Gospel. But they teach a different Jesus, a different gospel. The Mormons again teach a different gospel, a different Jesus. Well, the Muslims believe in Jesus. They believe he is coming back. But it is a different Jesus. A different gospel.
I have had JW’s in the house as well as Mormons and Muslims. I have discussed the Truth with them. But, I suspect, there is a bit of pearls in that and we need to let it go. Not that we should ever ignore an opportunity to share the Truth, but that we should not get mired in fruitless argument.
Again, if there was a Muslim family in the neighborhood in need of lodging, I would be there to offer it to them. And I do not like what I see in the suffering of refugee “camps”. I also have incredibly gullible children. They try to convince me that the Muslims are just real nice people. I already know that! It is the belief system I am concerned about. I want all Muslims to be saved from it. And I believe God can do that and He may use us to do it. I don’t know. But, I do believe people need to open their eyes to what is being taught. I don’t know what is being taught in every mosque but I do know what it says (at least, what I can remember) and though there is a lot of good stuff, there is some definite bad and twisting of the Truth.
LikeLike
I agree, roscuro, and it definitely feels as if the U.S. is in a free-fall, accelerated to be sure right now and clearly (from appearances, revival may come & the course of history may change) part of the end painfully playing out. But it won’t happen overnight. Several more generations may have to suffer through the final death throes. 😦
I’m reading Mohler’s new book on gay marriage — talk about a sweeping, unprecedented and complete turnaround in a culture — and nothing really happens in a vacuum or suddenly. These things take decades, sometimes centuries of changes to finally culminate.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Donna, I can’t resist. Surely in the U.S., the massing of military grade weapons is merely exercising one’s right to bear arms?”
Guns aren’t the problem, human nature and their disgusting religion is the problem…. 🙄
Maybe we should make importing muslim immigrants illegal too, since that seems to be a bigger part of the problem. Let’s throw in their liberal enablers too, and I guess we have to throw in pipes and nails too, since you can make bombs out of ’em…..
What? I couldn’t resist either…..
LikeLike
And I’d just like to mention that the wife passed the DHS counter-terrorism screening process for a K-1 visa as well, CBS is reporting.
LikeLike
Still baffled by the reticence (coming from Washinton, according to a Fox News report citing police — FBI? — sources) to call this one terrorism
LikeLike
Come on, Donna, it is not that hard. A couple of folk with ties to extremist groups, arsenal of weapons, IED stuff = workplace violence. Mentally deranged old white guy mumbling things about baby parts by a facility that kills babies, shooting people = terrorist activity. Try to keep up.
LikeLiked by 2 people
😀
Well, I understand not wanting to “rush to judgement” — but I really don’t remember that being a concern after the Planned Parenthood shooting. What’s up with that?
LikeLike
Donna, you go to work. Don’t you have office parties? Doesn’t everybody show up with a couple of AR-15’s and some pistols and lots of ammo, just in case somebody says something and needs to be dealt with? This is America after all. And you do live in the West.
LikeLike
The most excitement we’ve had at an office party lately was when one of the young reporters drank way too much champagne (during our Pulitzer celebration) and proceeded to speak her mind to the executive editor. Cutely, though.
It was hilarious and painful all at once.
But no guns were involved. And she’s given up alcohol.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Now I hear that the problem the terrorist had at work was with a co-worker, a Christian, who argued with him once about whether Islam was really a peaceful religion.
Guess the terrorist settled that point.
LikeLike
From Powerline: “The evidence continues to accumulate that the Bonnie and Clyde massacre in San Bernardino yesterday was a case of jihad. We’ve got the home armory. We’ve got the pilgrimage to Mecca. We’ve got the contact with foreign terrorist subjects. Sherlock Holmes solved the case in the story ‘Silver Blaze’ with the clue of the dog that didn’t bark. The San Bernardino dog won’t shut up. …”
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/the-dog-that-wont-quit-barking.php
LikeLiked by 1 person