Good Morning!
Today’s pics are from Janice.
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On this day in 1487 The War of the Roses ended with the Battle of Stoke.
In 1884 the first roller coaster in America opened at Coney Island, in Brooklyn, NY.
In 1897 the U.S. government signed a treaty of annexation with Hawaii.
And in 1963 at the age of 26 Valentina Tereshkova went into orbit aboard the Vostok 6 spacecraft for three days. She was the first female space traveler.
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Quote of the Day
“While living I want to live well.”
Geronimo
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Any day’s a good day for Jars of Clay. From RELEVANT
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Wandering Views 
According to the play about her life, that is what Patsy Cline said. “I don’t want to be rich, I just want to live well.” she grew up poor in western Virginia or West Virginia. Patsy was killed in an airplane accident about 50 years ago. .
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I just Yahoo’d Patsy. She died 53 years ago in a plane crash. She was born and raised in Winchester, Va. I knew it was somewhere around there. We had a secretary who knew her (not a friend) in those days.
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Hawaii should be it’s own country, not a state.
Did I say, “Good morning everyone?” 1ood morning~
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Good morning Chas…..
Or should I say 1ood morning? 🙂
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Yesterday “Anonymous” posted “I think that attitude has everything to do with taking communion, not who is serving it.” Anonymous is frequently Michele, but I’m thinking not this time because LCMS theology is that YOUR attitude has nothing to do with communion. It is the gift of God, to you, regardless of how you feel about it. I’m not picking on anyone – just adding another denominational view on the topic.
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Good Morning Everyone. Remember when I told you about the lady at the nail shop who prayed for my itchy legs? Well, unfortunately it didn’t work. I am not sure what triggered it, but I had a major flare up over the weekend. I woke up in the middle of the night Sunday night scratching. When I start scratching I can’t stop. Yesterday I had to take BG to the doctor so while we were there I got him to write a prescription for me of the cream that helps. He warned me not to use it all the time that it would take the pigment out of my skin. Well too late! I have been using it for about 20 years now. No wonder I have white dots on my legs! I also have some darker patches on my legs. He looked at that and I have whatever it was that Michael Jackson had that is the supposed reason he started bleaching his skin. Sure I have my own fair share of vanity, but not where the itching is concerned. I just wanted it to STOP. I took a bath in Aveeno Oatmeal Soothing bath whatever and applied the cream several times. They itch but not to the point I can’t ignore it.
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Thank you Linda. Chas, would you like to add to the discussion we had? Cheryl summed it up quite logically. I tend to explain on emotion and how I was raised.
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No Kim, I’m glad I wasn’t around for that discussion.
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I’m guessing our anon was RKessler.
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Yes the anon was rkessler. Don’t know why my phone does that.
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Wow, I did not intend to stifle all conversation. Just thought I would weigh in on KarenO’s question. I am aware that each church/denomination has its own doctrines/traditions. I did not say they were bad. I believe that scripture should be the ultimate authority.
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So nice to see the flowers this morning. Thanks Janice.
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Sigh. It is lovely to see flowers–people with water must have them . . . Going traveling this summer in hopes of a long shower . . .
Anon was not Michelle. I’m deleted.
🙂
Writing day; very odd not to have Bible study to teach on a Tuesday morn.
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Stirring up the waters…..put me down as one who believes communion can take place anywhere there are believers. I believe one person can take communion. It is done in remembrance of Him. A person backpacking in the mountains may want to stop and remember Him through communion, and the communion is between him and God. A family may desire to remember Him through communion. It can be done in the church building with tradition, as long as it is remembering him.
Of course, the same discussion could take place with baptism. Are only ordained folk allowed to baptize? Or can a dad or mom or elder or deacon or fellow believer baptize one?
Both can be taken to the extreme situation: a person becomes a believer far from the ordained or building and is about to die. Must he be denied communion and baptism because some particularly valuable person is not there? I think not. But it does not have to be extreme either. It may be the Lord desires to be remembered and prompts somebody to do the remembering and it is okay.
Scripture does talk about the Lord’s Table at Church gatherings. What is a church gathering? What is a Church gathering?
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Who is the church? We are! The word says that when two or three are gathered in His name, He is there.
I am still giving weight to what Kim & Cheryl said last night. On the matter of what is biblical, are there any scriptures that say it must be a pastor or elder or someone “official” who serves communion, or have we merely assumed that because of our church traditions throughout the years? (That is asked as an honest question.)
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Linda – I would say that communion is about both it being God’s gift to us, & our own attitude towards it. The Bible tells us to examine ourselves.
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Another matter on communion: Some say that in reading of 1 Corinthians, it sounds like the Lord’s Supper was more of an actual supper rather than only a piece of bread & a sip of wine.
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Jesus was having a meal with His disciples. He took part of the meal and instigated the communion supper. It seems that both would work. It is done in remembrance of Him. When eating the bread, remembering His Body, broken for you. When drinking the wine, remembering His Blood, poured out for you.
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RKessler, none of us was saying anything resembling, “My church’s tradition doesn’t allow me to take communion privately, and so I defer to tradition even though Scripture allows it.” Even church traditions should, in the tradition of sola Scriptura, reflect what a given church believes to be the most biblical approach. Reformed people and Anabaptists, for example, differ on whether children with believing parents should be baptized, as children in Old Testament families were circumcised. But neither side says, “This is our tradition, therefore we do it that way.” Both sides say, “We believe this to be more biblical, and thus we do it this way.”
I was raised Baptist, in a home with regular church attendance and daily family devotions and spiritual discussions, so I understand the intricacies (and the variations) of Baptist belief. But as an adult I chose a Reformed understanding of Scripture because I believe it to be more thoroughly grounded in Scripture. The Reformers used extreme care in grounding everything in Scripture. It’s fair to disagree with them in places . . . but not fair to say, “Well, that’s just tradition, but I believe the Bible.” If you’re going to do that, then use the Bible to refute what you see to be unbiblical.
Obviously all of us agree with the scriptural injunction to examine oneself before partaking of the Lord’s supper. That passage says nothing about personal, private communion, however. We have a time for quiet reflection during the corporate observance of the Lord’s supper; that is proper. What is at issue is whether it is proper to do so outside the established church setting, with elders present and offering the elements.
BTW, I do not believe in “apostolic succession.” Let’s say on some island of 200 people, a Bible washes ashore, and the people read it and many are converted. They decide over time to establish a church, and appoint elders and deacons according to the biblical qualifications of such. Over time, they find a way to send missionaries off the island to other locations. Well, such an offshoot branch of the church might wrestle with problematic theology–let’s say they haven’t ironed out the details of the Trinity, not realizing that the Holy Spirit is a separate person within it–because the church is supposed to engage with Scripture, and understand it better through corporately wrestling with it. If we’re isolationists on purpose, when we have options for attending a Bible-believing church, then we are in error and in sin. But a church established based on direct conviction by Scripture and not under the guidance of a missionary is every bit a part of the body as the churches established by the apostle Paul. That’s different from just deciding to treat one’s family as “church” and perform private worship services, complete with baptism and the Lord’s supper, apart from church authority.
My family growing up did have private worship services when for some reason we could not attend church–if we had a non-functioning car, for example–but that consisted of a time of singing, Dad reading the Word and talking about it a bit, and a time of prayer. We did not engage in the Lord’s supper at that time, nor could we have done so, biblically.
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A lot of folk do communion and baptism and church attendance out of tradition. And God often uses those things to bring them into right relationship with Him. And sometimes they just go about their merry way, check, check, check.
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Karen, I don’t think there is anything explicitly saying it has to be a pastor or elder–not having studied this, I could be wrong. But I think it could be understood that way through logical necessity. For example, I think that it’s clear in Scripture that it’s part of the church service. (And, by the way, two or three gathered in His name does not make a given time together a worship service.) It’s also clear that the church is to be led by elders (plural) and that the church has the authority to excommunicate (treat as an unbeliever, don’t even eat with him) someone who is in unrepentant sin, with the hope of restoration. It would seem by implication that the officers of the church know who is not permitted to partake.
I haven’t really studied this. My husband might well have a better answer, but he isn’t here. But I think, as an official sacrament of the church or part of the church’s basic order of worship, it should be led by elders or deacons or at the very least a delegated task overseen by them. It’s not something that those within the church take it upon themselves to do. (For example, the women’s Bible study can’t just decide it would be cool to end the season’s study with the Lord’s supper. They aren’t the body gathered, but a portion of it.)
Worth noting, though: the worship service heading up general assembly last week ended with the Lord’s supper. Now, GA is for elders, so obviously hundreds of them were present, but it was elders from dozens of churches, not a specific local body. I can imagine, likewise, that if the 12 apostles gathered, they might have partaken in remembrance of Christ, as commanded. But they did have the authority of apostles or elders, which is different from that of a lay member.
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What is worship service?
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Just clarifying that LCMS theology is that yes, you must examine yourself to see if any un-confessed sin prevents you from taking communion, but it is purely a gift of God to you – whether you “feel it” or not.
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Good question, Mumsee.
To add to that question: If Jesus is present when two or three are gathered in His name (not merely hanging out together), isn’t worship happening then?
(Again, asking honestly, although it sounds like I’m challenging others. The only challenge I seek is to challenge all of us to think more deeply, or even a little differently than we have before, on these matters.)
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When I am out mowing the lawn and singing praises to God, is that my worship service? Or is it only in a church building under certain conditions? I believe the angels are worshiping with me.
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My example to add to this is this past March when we had our church women’s retreat. The priest came down to where we were having the retreat Saturday morning and gave us communion.
In answer to another question I think it is widely accepted now that the Last Supper was most probably a Passover Seder. It would make sense that Jesus was born into a Jewish family and they wanted to crucify him before the Passover began at sunset on that Friday. I cannot say 100%
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cheryl said: I don’t think there is anything explicitly saying it has to be a pastor or elder–not having studied this, I could be wrong. But I think it could be understood that way through logical necessity. For example, I think that it’s clear in Scripture that it’s part of the church service.
And that was the point I was going to make, not to get hung up on who can or can’t serve communion — but rather that communion is something designed to be done within the context of the church gathered (and thus, the leaders would be the ones serving).
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And yes, our lives are to be lived in the context of worshiping Him in all we do. But there Jesus also established the local church body in which corporate worship, in Word and Sacrament, is to be regularly observed.
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Well, I wrangled another 1/2 day out of the editor, I’m going in at noon as I’m definitely not 100% yet, still moving slowly. I had rice for breakfast, still being super careful about what I eat. And I’m still taking half doses of the OTC imodium 3 times a day. Just in case …
At least I got the embargoed copy of the beach report card I needed to write up today (not to be published until tomorrow).
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As our pastor often says, me and Jesus and my guitar sitting on the beach isn’t really “church.” Even if there are 2 or 3 of us. It might be a beneficial practice personally, but it’s not church. Too often our popular Christian culture (since the ’60s) has replaced church with what are really private devotions only.
We should be actively engaged in both. But too often the line is blurred and we confuse the two, thinking church really is optional.
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I think that perhaps God can minister to, & be pleased with, two or three who gather in His name, as long as they do this in addition to gathering with their local body, not instead of.
When I mentioned that scripture seems to point to an actual supper, I didn’t mean the Last Supper, which obviously was a supper (the Passover Seder, as Kim mentioned), but these words in 1 Corinthians…
“For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.” (1 Corinthians 11:21)
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I was glad when they said, “Let us go to the House of the Lord.” is one of my favorite verses. And, lest anybody get up in arms, I do know that we are the house of the Lord. But, I very much enjoy the time of corporate worship. I enjoy liturgical services as well as more individualized. I like getting together with my fellow believers to worship through song and reading the Word. I just believe we are to pray always, praise always, worship always and if that includes some typically church things, it is okay.
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I think the “two or three” passage is frequently taken out of context. It is from Matthew 18. It is actually talking about resolving an issue between believers – not about worship: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
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This discussion looks worthwhile, I don’t have time but appears to be about 12 minutes long:
http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/keller-piper-and-carson-on-thriving-churches-in-a-hostile-culture
The church’s relationship with culture has been likened to seasonal progression: winter (totalitarian oppression), spring (growth), summer (Christendom), and fall (post-Christendom). “I’m not sure we in America know much about fall,” Keller observes. “We’re shocked by the fact we’re seen as bad citizens, as immoral—and we don’t seem to have good counternarratives.”
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Donna @ 2:16 (not applying to any other discussion here):
read Revelation 3:14-22.
So many churches are succumbing to the culture.
I’m worried. I really am.
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Mumsee, private worship is a very good thing, but not the same thing. I remember many years ago wrestling a bit with “Is it OK to pray in the shower?” I mean, I knew that God never blushes and turns His face away, but is it appropriately reverent? I finally came to terms with “Pray without ceasing” doesn’t actually have an asterisk.
But just as it is appropriate and acceptable to worship God privately in your pajamas, but not appropriate to go to public worship thus attired, some actions are appropriate for public worship but not for private. If your eight-year-old son leads your seven-year-old son to Christ, he can take him to the tub and baptize him if he wants . . . but the church is probably not going to accept it as Christian baptism. If six-year-old girls having a tea party decide to treat their Kool-ade and crackers as the Lord’s supper, it isn’t suddenly sacramental because they say it is.
Some aspects of life have both public and private faces. Marriage is only marriage with both public acknowledgment of marriage and private consummation of it–if it lacks either part, it is not marriage. Likewise, a Christian should worship privately and publicly–Scripture exhorts us to both–but not confuse the two.
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I listened to half the discussion, it is interesting and not too long. Keller notes that persecution can be good — or not — for the church, we can’t presume either outcome. He also cautions us not to forget that what we’re experiencing here is nothing — nothing — compared to what Christians in other nations endure in terms of persecution.
The words from Revelation do resonate, of course, with the church in the U.S. which has had life so very easy, enjoying a superficial acceptance & even respect by the wider, unbelieving culture. That’s changed and we are somewhat taken aback.
We’re such nice & good people, what’s not to love about us?? 😯
Chas, yeah, I noticed you kept your head down during the communion debate. 😉
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The Lord’s Supper, Communion, Eucharist means different things to different people.
And none of them are wrong, except the Roman Catholic doctrine that, upon proclamation by the priest, it becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus. And that it is a Holy Sacrament. That is, it, taking the Eucharist bestows Spiritual blessing within its self.
The Lord’s supper, as has been stated was the Passover meal, established by God through Moses, where wine (real wine) and bread were distributed to the disciples. But the celebration by the church appears to have been a communal meal at which the Lord’s Supper was served. (I Cor. 11). No specific instructions are given.
Most Baptist churches open the partaking of the Lord’s Supper to all baptized believers. That is, only Christians partake of the body and blood of Jesus. But if you are born again, you are a spiritual brother and we celebrate the Passover with you.
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Linda – Looking at those verses, I have this question: Could the word “For” that precedes “where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them” indicate a general concept that He is with the two or three gathered in His name whether they are in the situation described or in other situations? (Again, the “in His name” is the crux of it, not merely two or three believers just hanging out together, but intentionally seeking the Lord together.)
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In our family, we do not allow our children to participate in Communion unless they profess faith. At whatever age. We do try to discover if they actually understand or are just mimicking.
Two of our children have asked our pastor for baptism. Several months ago. He has not followed up on it other than to tell us he was coming out to discuss it with us. That never happened though it is evident he remembers. This coming Sunday is his last Sunday with us and then he retires. We have considered baptizing the children in the hot tub.
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I hope I’m not coming across as argumentative, because that’s really not what I’m trying to do.
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Mumsee, one of my good friends was the daughter of a pastor. He died of ALS (Lou Gerhrig’s) when she was about 12, after several years of deterioration. She wanted to be baptized some time before, had asked to be baptized. But her church had an arbitrary minimum age, I think it was 10, and by the time she was 10 her father was no longer physically able to do it. It still bothers her. One of my nephews, his parents had talked to the pastor, and the pastor had talked to the child and planned to baptize him but six months later had not done so, when my brother-in-law died. (My sister dealt with it by asking her son if he would appreciate it if his grandfather came for his baptism, and he gave a strong yes, so the grandfather stood in for his son.)
I suspect it grieves God when we delay baptism for invalid reasons. But I still think the right answer is “wait.” Baptism should be public, by the church. And churches aren’t likely to accept the baptism as valid.
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I am certain my church would not accept my baptism as valid, but it is not an issue because I do not do church membership. I believe in church and I believe in participating in church, just don’t agree with membership. (I was sprinkled in a Methodist church….sssshhhhh….)
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Karen O, iron sharpens iron. It is good to discuss differences, it is not good to war over them. Corinthians mentions factions and divisions in the church which help to show who is genuine in his belief. When differences are discussed, it helps us understand what we believe and how others believe. It may help our understanding to clarify or even change a bit. That is good, as long as it does not lead into heresy.
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Mumsee, without membership, how do you know who is “in” (authorized to vote for a pastor, for example, or eligible to become an elder) or “out” (under church discipline, excommunicated)? Whether membership is done exactly as it is done today doesn’t necessarily matter . . . but a church simply must know who is or isn’t a member.
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Mumsee’s baptism would be accepted in our church 🙂
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Children who believe and express to their parents that they want to partake in communion meet with the elders to see if they have a credible profession of faith (it’s a time our elders seem to delight in, from what I’ve heard). I don’t know that there’s an age limit (there certainly is not one for baptism — and unless someone comes to us from a heretical church — mormonism, etc. — one baptism suffices, including Roman Catholic).
We “fence” the table but one does not have to be a member of our church or our denomination to partake — the requirements are that they believe and trust in Christ and are members in good standing of a Bible-believing church. But because communion must be handled so carefully, the cautions about examining oneself before partaking are repeated each week.
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Mumsee – That’s what I was thinking. Sometimes we need to be questioned, or question ourselves, to make sure we are believing what we believe because it is biblical, & not merely what we’ve been taught, or what sounds good to us.
From participating on this blog, & the WMB before it, I have changed or modified some of my beliefs.
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(and the care factor surrounding communion also is why observing it within the context of the church makes sense to me; as our pastor often says, it’s not something to be trifled with or to be taken casually as Scripture tells us people fell ill and even died in doing so)
Well, back to the beach report card story … We did well this year — thanks in part to the drought. One of the few upsides, apparently.
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Almost 20 years ago, my family was a part of a house church. Some legalism was coming out of it. If you really loved God you would_____. i spent almost a year searching scripture to see what was a man made doctrine, and what God actually said about various issues through the scripture. I was amazed at how many church doctrines/traditions do not have a scriptural basis. I try not to debate, as I don’t have a desire to make everyone believe just the same as I do. I do however like to hear what others think. It does not change my mind one bit. If asked, as KarenO did, I will state my opinion. By the way, I could not find the word excommunicate in my concordance.
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R Kessler, nope, I wouldn’t expect “excommunicate” in a concordance, but it is a part of church discipline, nonetheless. (We are told “not even to eat with him” and to “treat him as an unbeliever” in one instance–I think it was in 1 Corinthians and apparently 2 Corinthians comes back to the same instance, after repentance, and tells them to forgive the man fully and restore him . . . if I’m remembering correctly, at the end of this long day.)
I do think that sometimes we need the wisdom of others, not just our own independent reading. (What have theologians through the ages said about this?) Would I, reading Scripture without any teachers, understand the doctrine of the Trinity? I honestly don’t know, but it is clearly biblical.
BTW, my husband came to a Reformed understanding of Scripture “on his own” reading through Romans 20 times. He realized it wasn’t what his church taught, and he studied further to find out if there are any Christians who teach what the Scripture actually says. My own path was somewhat similar, in that I found that part of what I had been taught (dispensationalism and Arminian doctrine) was clearly not biblical.
Tradition does not trump Scripture. Anyone who insists (for example) that a church must have pews and organ music is looking to tradition and not Scripture. Those who insist that Christians must not drink do the same thing. We all can name examples of such things. Nevertheless, we do read Scripture in community, not on our own, or we risk bringing our own private biases into Scripture.
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I think we have all agreed that the body of believers is important, some are just looking at personal time or time with a few brothers and sisters as also valuable time. We can learn from trained preachers. We can learn from individual Bible Study. Ideally, we would do both and bring questions to the Believers for discussion. Nobody on Earth has it perfect, but the Holy Spirit speaks to all of His children through His Word.
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Question: how are we to treat unbelievers?
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I’d say with love and goodwill, undergirded by a hope (and backed by sincere prayer) that they will come to know Christ — they are our neighbors. We should care about their lives and their struggles.
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Oh, my, what a discussion I have missed!
I am suffering this evening from eating too much watermelon. It sure was good, but I can’t eat a quarter of one like I use to. I fixed corn on the cob in the microwave. You cook it before shucking it which does surprisingly well.
Last night I was in the chat with the book club review group, and I received a call telling me I won an online cooking class. I don’t have the details yet. I hope it won’t be too elaborate. And I hope the foods I learn to prepare will be something my husband will enjoy.
I fell asleep and did not post this! Better very late than never so at almost 2 a.m. here is my post. 🙂
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I think with reference to treating the unrepentant brother as an ‘unbeliever’ it means we do not treat him or her as a brother or sister in Christ — it doesn’t mean they aren’t a believer, but until there is repentance, their outward profession of faith can no longer be presumed to be credible
The goal and entire point of church discipline is restoration, carried out with fairness, honesty and an abundance of Christian charity and patience
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Nice flowers, Janice — and the corn on the cob sounds delicious, it was a staple in my house growing up with Iowa-born and raised parents 🙂
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