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Our Daily Thread 10-15-14

Good Morning!

Today’s header photo is from Cheryl, and it’s a great shot.

On this day in 1892 the U.S. government announced that the land in the western Montana was open to settlers.

In 1939 New York Municipal Airport was dedicated. The name was later changed to La Guardia Airport. 

In 1945 Pierre Laval, the former premier of Vichy France, was executed for treason.

In 1946 Hermann Goering, a Nazi war criminal and founder of the Gestapo, poisoned himself just hours before his scheduled execution. 

And in 1966 President Lyndon B. Johnson signed a bill creating the Department of Transportation. 

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Quote of the Day

“Cleanliness is very important. If you let kids make a total mess in the kitchen and then leave, you’re not really teaching them anything.”

Emeril Lagasse

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 Today is Dag Ivan Wiren’s birthday.

And it’s Richard Carpenter’s.

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Anyone have a QoD?

58 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 10-15-14”

  1. First! (OK, AJ really was first.) Insomnia. Looking for the inositol…

    I’m going back to bed. Jo, and the usual early-morning stateside crowd, have at it!

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  3. Good morning, evening, and in between. I just left a prayer on yesterday’s prayer thread. Husband is asleep in the hospital bed while I am stretched out in the recliner by the bed. Hoping for improvement today. Cable is out for the hospital so my husband will not be in a good mood until it comes back on. I am getting too use to this recliner as a bed.

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  4. Hi there, y’all.

    Janice: I’m praying for your husband and for you. It’s no fun to sleep in a chair. Or to spend time in hospitals.

    6Arrows: Prayers for you, too. I read your “rant” early this morning and agreed with you on many points. I rarely wear makeup (not because I’m against it, I just don’t like the feel of it), frequently wear long skirts with Birkenstocks, and do not do immunizations. I’ve been treated like a freak at the children’s doctor office because of these choices. Especially when they found out I was homeschooling. People love to put each other in boxes based on superficial things.

    Chas: Enjoy your time at the Y!

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  5. Morning all. Just confirmed a reservation at a missionary place in Brisbane for Dec. 17th. I may actually be going somewhere. And this is so nice, hotels there are at least a hundred dollars and this is a quarter of that. Also found all the produce I needed at the store today. They are buying from some employees on centre for us. Now I don’t need to make a special trip elsewhere.

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  6. Chas, That rain has delayed our golf in Lexington, Va, but we had nice weather yesterday in Williamsburg and Hampton Roads. The Virginia/Monitor exhibit at The Mariners Museum in Newport News is outstanding.

    A personal request to Peter L. Please include the Baylor/ West Virginia game in this week’s picks. TRW and I are taking a break from our Golf/ Confederate History/ Chicken Eating vacation to travel to Morgantown and watch that one.

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  9. Baylor may have a letdown after last week’s game. But I’m choosing them anyhow.
    If you want to study the Civil War, Virginia is the place to be. That doesn’t mean there weren’t other important battles, like Vicksburg.

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  10. 1. I posted on Donna’ Facebook page last night to go to WKRG. Facebook was “lit up” last night
    http://blog.gulflive.com/mississippi-press-news/2014/10/woman_exhibiting_symptoms_of_e.html

    2. I am probably the only person you know who loathes the Carpenters. Aacchh.

    3. Hubs decided to sleep with the bedroom windows open last night since it was so cool. At 2:30 AM! The neighbor’s dog started barking. I heard the siren from an ambulance. I finally gave up on going back to sleep so I started going down the list around here and at work praying. When I gave up on that I finished the last couple of pages of a book I was reading. Then I realised that I had The Advent Bride on my Kindle, so I read that. By the that time the dogs were awake, so I let them out and made the coffee. So for 99 cents I downloaded the Nutcracker Bride and read that.
    I stopped by the store this morning and picked up a few things for a Lunch and Learn we are hosting today on Self Directed IRA’s. Most of my “stuff” is packed away but I was able to find a few things to decorate the buffet table.

    Now to start my work day.

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  13. My writing assignment is due today. Any guesses how that is going? Right!

    Do I go work on that or stay and see what happens here at the hospital? Some angels are covering the best they can at the office.

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  14. Janice, you aren’t saying much about yourself, but I sense that you are concerned. Also, I know about cellulitis. I think you need prayer and support. I can’t write out prayers the way you do, but I am praying. So, know that we love you and would help if we could.

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  16. A guy just came by to check supplies by the door. He stuck his hand in the boxes of surgical gloves to gauge their level to see if replacements are needed. I am thinking that could be a source of infection as he goes room to room doing that. The medical staff is protected but not the patients. Duh? There are multitudes of people who flow in and out performing their various functions. Lots of different personalities, the majority are immigrants.

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  17. Thank you all for prayers. Husband is in good enough spirits and other than the arm he does not seem sick. That helps a lot. He has no fever, no nausea, a good appetite, and is getting more rest than he has in ages. The nicotine patch is working great, so I told husband maybe that is why this happened, to get him off cigs. I am not frantic only because I am relying on God. Your prayers are supporting us. Brother is doing well although sore from his fall. Friend Karen is still in rehab doing slow recovery just down the street from here (basically across from CDC).

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  18. Nurse just came in and I told her about the gloves which she had put on to administer med through I’ve port. Her reply was that they are not sterile gloves so that is okay. Not sure what that means. Maybe Roscommon can explain?

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  19. This phone is rearranging the letters/words into ones other than what I type in. I typed the initials I.V. in lower case and it changed it to I’ve. Also changed Phos’ S name. Weird.

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  20. Ricky- Sounds like a fun vacation. I would like to do that with my youngest daughter, since she likes the Civil War. In fact, we even go to reenactments and she dresses in period costume. She gets her picture taken a lot.

    And Baylor/WV it is. I still haven’t heard from IBNO. I may just have to pick one myself.

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  21. Awesome shot of the bluejay. I rarely see them when it is green around here. They’re usually in the snow at our feeders – all that blue and white – gorgeous. A lot of people don’t like the bluejays as they chase other birds away, but I love them.

    Prayers for Janice’s husband as well. No fun.

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  22. Janice, sterile gloves are gloves that have been surgically sterilized so they are free from any microorganisms like viruses or bacteria. They are used in surgery and in medical procedures to prevent the patient from being infected, like changing the dressings on an open wound. If you saw them insert your husband’s I.V., you may have seen the sterile gloves – they come wrapped up in plastic and paper. Sterile gloves are used to protect the patient; the gloves you see in those boxes are to protect the workers – in routine check-ups of patients the nurses use the regular gloves. I would agree the way that supply guy checked out the boxes wasn’t exactly sanitary – sometimes people get into habits that they don’t realize are bad. Your mentioning it to the nurse may get people thinking about it.

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  23. Beautiful shot of the jay Cheryl! He appears to be on a mission! I think they are beautiful birds but I am one of those who don’t care for their mean spiritedness! 🙂 They strut around like they own the place and bully the sweet timid chickadees at the bird bath…I shoo them when they come around!

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  24. Good morning! The rain has stopped! It’s not sunny yet, but it’s not dark and gloomy, either. 🙂

    Ann, thanks for your prayers. They mean a lot to me. Also your comment about my rant. I had some regrets about certain things I said, the way I said them, etc., as I frequently do when I comment under stress about things on which I have strong opinions. I see things more clearly way after the fact, some of my own blind spots, things I could have stated better or left out, etc., even though I stand by other aspects of what I said. Yikes — I am often my own worst enemy. 😉

    Jo, lots of good news for you in your 7:22. I am happy for you.

    Anonymous (probably Michelle) — thanks for the sleep tips link. I copied it and plan to try a few of those items I haven’t considered before.

    Janice, continued prayers for your husband. I am praying for you, too.

    Cheryl, great shot of that blue jay!

    AJ, once again, thank you for the many classical videos you post here. Another good one today!

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  25. Wow, great photo, cheryl.

    Oh Janice, prayers for you and your husband. Sounds like a rough stretch you both are going through.

    I have a friend who’s had cellulitis (it tended to recur in her a lot, it was stubborn to get rid of) and I have had to don the gown and gloves for hospital visits, although she also has Mersa(?) so I think that may have prompted that routine as well.

    Kim, I went to the news station you sent me last night but wasn’t sure what I was looking for so I missed seeing the story you posted just now. Scary, any updates??

    OK, say what you will about the Carpenters, but Karen Carpenter really did have a beautiful voice — they also were “locals” to us, they both attended the same state university I did (but before me, though not by much). There’s now a concert hall facility on campus named after them.

    The brother of my insurance agent was their first partner/songwriter (they all knew each other in college). He went on to write for lots of other folks, won grammies, is in a rock hall of fame somewhere, pretty strong career and I think he’s still at it). I’ve interviewed him a couple times, super nice guy. Grew up here in the port, but now lives with his wife and kids on some sprawling southern ranch/farm somewhere “down there” around Kim’s and Janice’s home turf. Georgia maybe?

    Busy day yesterday with the parrot (I should have a follow to do on that today); phone interview with a congressional candidate (nice guy, young, a musician & a black republican who’s running against an entrenched Dem in a south LA district that also includes part of our readership area, so really no chance of winning); and updating two police/fire incidents, including a horrible accident involving a container/tractor/trailer truck vs. a sedan that required the Jaws of Life and sent both drivers to the hospital in pretty bad (critical) condition.

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  26. 6 arrows, meant to say also that you made some good points in your ‘rant’ — we do tend to like “boxes” for people. I know many large families who homeschool.

    I think Fitzpatrick’s point was that it can be a problem when Christians begin to feel pressed to follow the same paths because it’s part of being a “good” Christian — and then they feel burdened by the added “requirements” if they can’t or don’t quite measure up. As human beings, we do tend to swing toward excess sometimes and the church certainly isn’t immune.

    That’s why I’ve so appreciated Fitzpatrick’s ministry that brings us back to the free grace of the gospel, without all the added, outward “accessories” Christians sometimes feel they should have or exhibit to be right with God.

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  27. Meant to finish the point about large homeschooling families — Yes, they are often looked down upon by the culture at large which is so aggravating to me. Having a lot of children is definitely politically incorrect in our society right now. 😦

    But on the flip side, some Christian women may now feel more pressure to follow that path just because it’s become so revered and celebrated within many church circles.

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  28. My husband doesn’t like blue jays much, either, but he has realized that I like getting photos of them, so he stopped shooing them out of our feeder tree. (They rarely come to the food anyway. Both of us shoo starlings off the food.)

    Last winter I tried multiple times to get photos of blue jays in flight, but the camera I had last year was slower, so I’d have to guess that they were just about to fly. Usually they hadn’t flown yet or they were already out of the frame. They also tend to just “drop” with their wings folded when they’re flying down, so I got a lot of photos like that, with their wings closed. And finally I got a few with a branch over the bird’s face or part of its body. This camera (and card) are much faster, with two fast-action settings, and a longer zoom, so I’ve been taking photos from maybe 20 yards away (like that one). Not as sharp as a professional camera, but I was excited when I pulled that one up on the computer. I knew I got him in flight, but I didn’t know that I got that particular shot. (I had three other shots in level flight after that, all lovely but this one the best.) My husband played with it a little bit to get it slightly sharper and brighter, and I cropped it a bit, but I was really happy to get a shot with the bird all fanned out and all those lovely feathers displayed. I’m hoping to get one from closer up this winter once the trees have lost their leaves and the jays start gathering in the feeder tree behind our kitchen window.

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  29. Re the homeschooling families discussion. I know some who are involved in some of the legalistic stuff. I think just about every item in that list can be a good choice for someone to make, some of them even a choice they can make as a conscience issue (like no birth control). But by the time you start saying all Christians must do something, it had better be clear in Scripture.

    My sister was in a church that had factions over who did or didn’t use a certain type of water system. Some claimed that it made the water much healthier, and some were selling it and others felt pressure to use it too. She said it really almost became cultish; they made claims about how much longer people lived who had this system, and anyone in the church who had a family member with any illness was pretty much promised a miracle cure and was considered the ultimate ogre if they passed up their chance at a healing.

    After that she was around some people who believed that all households must farm, the father must work from home (and be the one homeschooling the children, because he’s really the proper authority over the children), and daughters live to help their father until they marry to help their husband. (That one would make more sense to me if they said daughters should help their mother. Doesn’t the father already have sons to help him?! But neither is a biblical requirement.)

    Someone told me admiringly that a pastoral candidate had preached a sermon on “simplicity.” That seems rather like the Andy Griffith show we watched yesterday where the pastor “preached” on being natural and being yourself. Simplicity may well be a good thing, but it’s a little tricky to put it as some sort of requirement of Christians.

    I am conservative, and I have a lot of sympathy for the conservative side of things. I think big families are better than small ones; I think homeschooling is often the best option for a family. I respect families that choose to run farms, and I think Mumsee’s family is a gift to many children. But by the time anyone starts saying “Everyone should do it my way” (whether that is limiting family size to two or having as many children as physically possible even if the mother dies from too many C-sections), one had better be pretty sure it’s a biblical absolute. “A single woman cannot get a job outside the home because that places her under another man’s authority when she should be under her father’s authority until she marries” is not a biblical absolute. A family can choose it for their family, but they cannot insist on it for other families . . . and in my opinion, if the daughter chooses at some point to move out and have her own (single) household, they can tell her she is welcome to stay, but they cannot tell her she is disobeying God and she is in rebellion. Old Testament Jewish culture is not our measuring rod; God’s Word is. And if he didn’t command it–and command it in a way that is still relevant today, not just for OT Israel–then we can’t, either.

    But there are still a lot of factions out there that say we can.

    My computer is only showing a couple of lines at a time, so I have no idea how long this is.

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  30. Parenting out of fear . . . These attitudes are what so many of the young Progressive Christians are screaming about and, to me, it’s a real shame.

    Of course you’re going to differentiate yourself from the families you grew up in, that’s what becoming an adult is–finding your own way to your own understanding of life and your own faith.

    What aggravates me is this need to tear down everything in the name of their discouragement or unhappiness. I read their blog posts and some of their books and think, “so, go to a different church if you don’t like the one you were raised in. Find your freedom in Christ. Grace is what you need–but you need to bestow it, too.

    Sure, there are plenty of legalistic Christians out there, but those same legalistic Christians are often the ones holding the line on the sufficiency of Scripture. Okay, you didn’t like your childhood and you hated AWANAs–but do you know those verses? Are they engraved on your heart? Isn’t that good for something?

    My rant done.

    We had like five minutes of monsoon rain here this morning in the dark. Nice. We’ll take more, please. 🙂

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  31. Michelle, Phil Yancey had a wonderful column in CT several years ago (collected in one of his books, I think) about why he couldn’t write horrible things about his fundamentalist childhood. Yes, the rules were somewhat restrictive and sometimes arbitrary, but he grew up with a love for Scripture and a knowledge of it, and many other things. That was my experience, too. I think that some of the “limits” were actually good (like growing up without a TV), and others (like not playing cards) were quite neutral.

    But the knowledge of Scripture, the protection from some sins that could have hurt us, the love of the church, and several other things are definitely positive elements of growing up in fundamentalism. To be honest, fundamentalist churches feel weird to me now; I don’t feel comfortable or nostalgic. But I’m more happy about the legacy than otherwise. And I’ve “shaken off” the limits that seem unbiblical (like no alcohol) and walked away from the theology that is at odds with Scripture (man’s free will being the deciding factor in salvation, dispensational theology).

    The problem, to me, is that the new legalism (which often hates fundamentalism and refuses its limitations) seems in many ways harsher and more exacting. For example, I have heard that some of the “True Love Waits” teaching has hurt some people . . . a woman who has been molested sees herself as unclean, a person who has chosen sexual sin sees herself as unforgivable and so she might as well be promiscuous, and then some people who do wait till marriage have a hard time being sexual once they are. Now imagine a teaching that says that feelings of affection for someone to whom you aren’t married are wrong, or that any touch of the opposite sex is wrong (which could leave some people pretty touch-deprived), but that your sole importance in life as a woman is to be a daughter and then a wife, and a perfect one if possible. And let’s say a 25-year-old woman wants to go to Bible college (has wanted it for years) enough that she finally just says, “I don’t care what my parents say. They don’t have authority in this matter, and I love them but I’m just not going to be bound by those extra rules any more,” so she goes. To her family, she is in rebellion. She probably has no savings for college, and no family support, because she has been trying for years to be the “good daughter” who stays at home. Phos knows; she lived through some of it, though her parents have changed since then. But the potential for damage–especially of women–seems so huge.

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  33. Enjoying the discussion ladies, all of you who’ve chimed in the last couple days. Thank you.

    As a father helping to raise a young lady, I enjoy when you share your knowledge, expertise, and individual stories, both for and against, different topics. Your life experiences, from both the young and older (not sayin’ old) ladies is much appreciated by this clueless male. It’s one of the many reasons I love this place, and you folks. Again, thank you all. 🙂

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  35. Michelle, I think there are two different groups. There was the soft legalism of a lot of churches in the 50s and 60s to mid 70s, that said, don’t drink, don’t go to movies, don’t listen to Elvis Presley, don’t go to dances. My mother grew up in that kind of environment and she and her sibilings all turned out normal and when they chose to listen to different types of music or watch movies in a theatre in their later lives, their parents didn’t seem to think much about it. The advice was less related to these things are evil, and rather, these things may associated with evil and so it is probably better to avoid them.

    Then there was the hard legalism of the late 70s, 80s and 90s. These were parents who had come through the hippy era and were determined that their kids weren’t going to make the same mistakes. Gothard and those of his ilk offered a guaranteed method to prevent that from happening. A lot of this group were the birth-control-is-sinful-under-any-circumstances, the-government-is-evil (so don’t do anything they suggest), women-must-wear-skirts, rock-music-is-of-Satan – basically, converted hippies who still had the same get-away-from-the-world attitude from their secular days; but now with an added religious twist.

    The idea of separation became increasingly tortured – to use a real life example, I knew a woman, wife and mother but not mine, who joined a certain program. She was the type who would never listen to rock music, but she now decided to get rid of her soft Christian pop albums because they had a syncopated beat. So she encouraged her children to study classical music. But then, she discovered that certain composers had written songs with titles like “Witches Dance”. Not only would she not let her children listen to those songs, but the rest of the composer’s works were now suspect. Then she found out that the composers weren’t always the best of people – Mozart, for example, was a Mason; so she tried to eliminate such bad examples. We watched those children seethe under the ever tightening rules. They stopped listening to her after a while. You can’t keep moving the goal posts of your standards and expect your children to respect your convictions.

    I think the ones who rail bitterly against their past are the ones who use it as an excuse for their present. Recovering Grace, the post-ATI website is remarkably non-bitter and the articles and discussions are very helpful for those trying to sift through the lies they have been taught (many things that I learned in that program were actually factually incorrect, not just a matter of spiritual interpretation). In addition, there was some horrific abuse that happened and was covered up in the name of keeping Christianity’s reputation. Gothard’s case was actually one of the less egregious ones. I know much worse stories, from people I know personally, which I cannot talk about here. There should be anger over little ones who are offended.

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  36. Michelle, I agree with your rant. I, too, am bothered by all the tearing down that is done by some of these young people who grew up in less than (sometimes far less than) ideal circumstances. We all grew up with parents who made mistakes; it is not our right to dishonor them, no matter how bad or frequent their mistakes were. There is a fine line between simply talking about the challenges we faced growing up in the environment we did (needing to talk out our hurts, rather than keep them buried), and lashing out with dishonor and disrespect toward the people and institutions that were significant contributors into our lives as we grew up.

    Unfortunately, some of these young Christians have stepped over the line, and, rather than being a source of support to others in similar circumstances, some of them have formed a community that, IMO, encourages more of a “walk-around-with-a-chip-on-my-shoulder-and-I-don’t-give-a-[you-know-what].” The I-was-robbed mentality feeds more of the anger, and, I believe, makes it more difficult for them to search out the kind of wise solutions you offer for moving on — looking for a different church, pondering the good things that came of your upbringing, giving you insight into what you can adopt and what you can reject in choosing how you will proceed in your own adult life, giving yourself grace and also bestowing it on others, and finding your freedom in Christ.

    There is much wisdom in those recommendations, Michelle. I am grieved, though, that sometimes delivering that type of message is received as a sign that a person is unsympathetic toward those who have suffered. How does one break into that angry mindset with positive solutions for assisting one in moving forward in life? (That’s a question for any of you who wish to answer.)

    This is real to me because there are two young adults whom I love that grew up in a very restrictive environment (restrictive probably isn’t the best word, as some restrictions are to a person’s benefit — maybe I should say unnecessarily restrictive) that has damaged their self-confidence something awful, and they are having an extremely difficult time integrating into the adult world. They are like helpless children who need direction on every little thing. They’re living at home, can’t keep a job. I worry that there may be deep anguish under the surface, though they are not speaking out dishonorably about their parents and the micromanagement that was painfully apparent, which they had (still have) to endure.

    Well, that was a bit of a tangent, but I say that to emphasize that I’m not unsympathetic to the plight of adults who had difficult upbringings. There are some very real residual effects of our childhoods that we all carry into adulthood. Yet 1 Corinthians 13:11 applies to all of us: “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”

    The young people with anger management issues need to realize there’s a time to move on, though we may always carry some scars with us. But do we dare even say that, and, if so, how?

    Things I wonder about…

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  39. Donna,
    It was a bunch of irrational over reactors and it was some people violating rights to privacy AND most of them were her family.

    She probably has the flu

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  43. 6Arrows – Re: your question on how to tell people to move on without being accused of being insensitive – I’ll attempt an answer.

    First of all, you must understand the real problems. Don’t waltz into a situation where people are pouring invective on a movement and assume you know all about it. Take time, listen to the stories, check out the facts.

    Secondly, learn to discern between sincerely concerned people and the vindictive vigilantes. Ignore the vindictive ones – if it is a comment section on an internet forum, some of them may be trolls, just there to stir up trouble because they like the excitement.

    Third, realize that forgiveness and healing is an ongoing process. It may take years for people to come to terms with what happened to them. But it is much better for them to talk about it and process it openly than to keep it inside. My mother had several friends who had serious breakdowns in their forties and fifties, when they could no longer hide the abuse they had suffered as children.

    Fourth, take the problems seriously. If there is a lot of bad fruit (abuse, adultery, financial scandal) in a spiritual movement, that is an indication that movement was not truly scriptural (Matthew 7:15-20). Most of the posters on the Recovering Grace blog are orthodox Christians – they believe the Bible, they trust Christ, they affirm true marriage, etc. Their real concern was that Christians were being deceived by a false teacher. The revelations of Gothard’s abuse of young women was entirely incidental – enough people contacted them with similar stories that they decided it should be investigated.

    Fifth, help to effect change. Many of the recent scandals in churches indicate that there is a terrible problem with church discipline. The sexual abuse of minors by repeat offenders should never have occurred. Many rightly condemned Paterno and Penn State for covering up Sandusky’s crimes; but then are squeamish about the similar cover-ups being uncovered in churches. There needs to be the will to report such criminal offenses to the police. There also needs to be the will to obey the commands of Paul and John about excommunicating such unrepentant sinners.

    Then, you can help those who suffered to move on with their lives.

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  44. Good thoughts, Roscuro — thank you for sharing from your perspective. I appreciate that you are coming from a place where you have experienced some of these problems, and that you do not speak in bitter anger or dishonor.

    I should clarify that I have read at Recovering Grace before, and my post at 2:54 was not referring to anything I’d read there. The discussion there, though I’ve not read a lot of it, does seem to me to be more supportive, and ultimately, IMO, more conducive to healing, than at another site, which I won’t name but was mainly thinking of in my previous post.

    And, oh yes, I’m well aware of internet trolls and the trouble they love to stir up, as I’ve seen heavy troll activity at a few sites where I’ve read the past few years.

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  45. Janice, thank you, BTW, for your prayer on yesterday’s prayer thread. I am very grateful for your prayers, especially while you’re in the middle of all you’re dealing with — your husband’s hospitalization, and then tornadoes on top of that? Whew.

    Donna (11:56), thank you. And great thoughts in your last paragraph. I agree how wonderful it is to be reminded of the free grace of the gospel, without all the emphasis on externals that sometimes we feel we must adopt to be right with God. We’re only made righteous through Jesus’ righteousness, and not our efforts, of course, but, boy, sometimes it’s easy to lose track of that in the day-to-day. Reminders of who we are in Christ are important, and that is one thing I appreciated about Fitzpatrick’s article.

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  46. Thanks, Peter. Chas is right. Virginia is the place for Civil War history.

    Monday, we visited the Texas monument at The Wilderness, took a three mile hike around Chancellorsville, and took pictures by the three churches on Princess Anne Street and behind the stone wall on Marye’s Heights in Fredericksburg. Then it was on to Richmond for barbecue, the Confederate White House and the Museum of the Confederacy before supper at Food for Thought in Williamsburg.

    Tuesday, it was Colonial Williamsburg and The Mariner’s Museum before heading west for supper at The Southern Inn in Lexington.

    This morning we visited the chapel Lee built at Washington and Lee (along with the attached museum and Lee’s tomb and Traveler’s grave) and Jackson’s home and grave before returning to Charlottesville for lunch at The Virginian on The Corner. We walked off lunch walking around the University of Virginia, then recrossed the Blue Ridge and are in the heart of the Shenandoah Valley in Harrisonburg.

    It would make a great trip to look at colleges.

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  47. right now our siren is going off, the monthly test on the morning in prayer to make sure that it is working properly. The neighbor’s dog is howling along!!! 🙂

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  48. 6 Arrows, another thing you might be able to do is help such young people know how to communicate with their parents–how to speak respectfully but in a way that they might be heard.

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  50. Cheryl, by “such young people”, do you mean the ones I referred to that were speaking dishonorably about their parents, or the ones I mentioned whom I know and love, who were not speaking out against their parents, but were/are in a hard situation? Or both?

    I ask, because I think it makes a difference whether I know the parents or not. In the one case, I do; in the other case, the only thing I know about the parents is what the adult children say about their parents.

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  51. 6 Arrows, in either case you might be able to, if you’re in a position that they might listen to you.

    For example, I had a 10:30 bedtime until I moved out (age 20). And yes, I mean a bedtime, not a curfew or “be in your room and quiet.” If my light was still on at 10:35, Mom would notice and come tell me to turn it off and get in bed. I was paying rent and doing all the housework, saving to buy my own car and tin the meantime riding a bike to work (a bike I had bought myself). I’d been teaching Sunday school for years, and I had started a Bible club for children in our neighborhood that met in the clubhouse. I was a responsible young adult, and I didn’t need a bedtime. Furthermore, as a night owl I didn’t like having a bedtime, and I was perfectly capable of getting enough sleep without one (and being quiet in the evening hours until then–my mom’s bedroom was at the opposite end of the house from me at that point, and I was a quiet young woman, not inclined even to talk on the phone or listen to music, but bookish).

    When I was 18, my younger sister raised the issue of my bedtime, telling Mom that she wasn’t asking for herself, but I was 18 and she didn’t see why I needed a bedtime any longer. My mom said, “As long as Cheryl lives in this house, she will have a bedtime.” I wasn’t in on the conversation, but I overheard it, and it answered my question–never once did I raise the issue with Mom, because she had answered it definitively (which should also show I wasn’t exactly a trouble-making young person!).

    When I was 20 I was in a conversation with my youth pastor (college youth group) in which I mentioned that I had a 10:30 bedtime, and he didn’t comment at all. I figured OK, maybe that isn’t as unusual as I thought it was, since he didn’t say anything. I really think he could have (should have) asked if I’d ever talked with my mom about it, and encouraged me how to so so respectfully.

    See, some kids need to learn how to “speak up” (that was me), and others need to learn how to “speak down,” if you will–to raise an issue but do so more respectfully than they might be inclined. Personally, I think kids in either group might be helped by a person who is a parent (as my youth pastor was not) or at least is a little older than they are, with an adult perspective, to hash it over with someone who isn’t going to disrespect their parents but also isn’t going to sit back and not say anything to help.

    The bedtime example is kind of trivial; it wasn’t abuse, but it really would have been good if I could have learned how to talk about difficult issues rather than stay silent and let it go. Other kids have the opposite need, how to talk about it without fighting and being rude.

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  53. Thanks, Cheryl. There’s more I want to say, but I need to go pick up my daughter right now, and then we need to pick up a few things while we’re out and about. I will probably get back to you by email, but it might not be until tomorrow.

    Talk to you later.

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  56. Very true, Cheryl!

    My capable hubby, working with a vague description from his non-mechanical wife about the nature of the problem, came with a few tools and got the problem taken care of well enough that I could safely drive the car home. More work will be needed at a later time, but we got a decent temporary fix, anyway. Praise the Lord!

    This is the wrong thread, but since I’m here, if you could pray for me, I am suddenly feeling very sick. Headache, sore throat, an awful feeling like I’m going to throw up, weakness and a feeling like I might pass out just sitting in this chair typing. Time for bed. Thanks for praying.

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  58. 6Arrows: I’d like to email you on the topic you’ve raised, but I can’t find your address. If you still have mine, could you drop me a short note with yours? Thanks. Glad you made it home safely. Hope you’re feeling better.

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