The Real, you asked a question of HRW and I at the end of yesterday’s thread which I will try to answer.
First off, I do apologize for how strongly I expressed myself yesterday, especially the Godwin’s law violation – that was not right.
Now about the report of M-13 recruitments within these camps. Aside from the fact that the article’s reliability is called into question by their failure to ascertain the facts about the diseases, the article is based only on one shadowy witness – “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” However, since it is not beyond the grounds of possibility that a few gang members should have crept in with the rest, I would point out a few logical deductions that come to mind:
a) M-13 is already in the US. I remember reading an article, I think in 2008, about a member of that gang and I believe the PBS series “Gangland” featured them as well.
b) Since M-13 is established, they will be recruiting whoever falls to their net – inner city youth, vulnerable immigrants, and even bored or greedy upper-middle class young people.
c) The report might be perfectly true about gang members using Red Cross phones – but who is to say it wasn’t more than two or three such youth (as plurals are not specific) and further, if the border official was aware of that use, those youth have probably been dealt with. I know here at least, being a member of certain criminal gangs is alone grounds for being arrested.
Furthermore:
d) Bob Buckles’ link from yesterday would indicate that the immigrant children are acting upon a law passed in 2008 and was intended to provide asylum for those threatened by the violence in Central America.
e) The interviewee also stated that these children are not crossing the border clandestinely, but voluntarily turning themselves over to the border agents, in the hope that they qualify to enter the US under this law. So, these camps are in fact processing children who entered the country legally.
f) There is always a danger that organized crime will try to take advantage of immigration. Not all Sicilian Italians in the early 1900’s were fleeing from the Mafia control in Sicily, but as we know now, there were more that would become upstanding citizens of America than would follow the Godfathers. Had we denied all Sicilians the right to emigrate to North America on the grounds that some might belong to the Mafia, some of my Christian friends and relatives never would have been born.
Finally, there is an unspoken assumption in the article (and blatantly written in the comments that follow it) that somehow these children are more likely than other children to become gang members. In one sense I would agree, children from broken homes are more vulnerable to gangs, as they are seeking a place to belong. In another sense, I vehemently disagree – Central American children do not carry a genetic predisposition to criminality any more than do American children descended from European settlers – they are all descended from Adam. Those who take over the care of the children have the opportunity to help protect them from those who would prey upon their vulnerability. That would be where the Church could make a difference.
The anti-immigrant, for lack of a better description, demonstrations are just ugly.
But the chaotic situation unfolding at the border is unsustainable in terms of any kind of cogent immigration policy. Something needs to be figured out on how to better deal with this.
Below are excerpts from a WaPo piece posted by Veith:
“President George W. Bush signed the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act on Dec. 23, 2008, thinking he was fighting the global traffic in sex slaves, many of them children. The Democratic Congress that passed the bill agreed. Hence its title, an homage to 19th-century Britain’s greatest foe of the slave trade.
“Half a decade later, the Wilberforce Act has mutated into a source of chaos, the victims of which are children, and the greatest beneficiaries, human traffickers. …
” … This isn’t anyone’s idea of sustainable immigration; at least it shouldn’t be. Some call the situation a humanitarian crisis. I prefer ‘national scandal.’ “
Unfortunately, the U.S. federal government appears to be completely broken at this point, making it highly unlikely that anything constructive will get resolved. As someone once said, if they were children, we’d send them (congress AND the president) to their rooms.
But there is support for immigration reform among voters:
” … A national poll of 1000 likely voters plus polls in 26 states of 500-855 likely voters conducted by a GOP firm, Harper Polling, found high support even among Republicans for immigration reform. The findings, provided to Right Turn, suggest the anti-immigration forces are loud but in the distinct minority. …
” … Ironically the border crisis, which anti-immigrant forces trumpet as evidence of the dangers of legalization, has if anything highlighted the urgency for fixing the immigration system. … “
AJ — roscuro answered for me. Criminality, like disease, especially linked to a specific ethnicity is a common anti-immigrant meme both in the 19th century and today. Criminality and disease are both memes used to raise fear of the “other” ie the immigrants. I though my reference to Hodstadler was a reference to all fear based memes not just disease.
Bob — minimum wage raises are not responsible for all increases in prices. I would think the rise in fuel cost would be a major contributor.
HRW, From yesterday: I’m sorry I can’t tell you what armadillo tastes like. If I have ever eaten any, it was put in chile or Mexican food without my knowledge.
I eat bison regularly and venison sausage when one of my buddies has extra meat. I second your opinion on Kobe beef. I had a Kobe beef burger in Las Vegas last year at a “Burger Bar”. It was worth the price. The place also had individual televisions in each booth, so we watched the Thunder dismantle the Jazz as we drank our milkshakes for dessert.
The place is great. Sadly, I understand PJ Clarke’s has closed its Las Vegas location. We were in town to watch the PAC 12 basketball tournament. I hadn’t been to Las Vegas in 30+ years. The gambling scene looks pretty depressing, but it is a great place to watch basketball and eat good food.
You seem to find little to nothing wrong with raising the minimum wage. I suggest that to those of us who have a fixed retirement income, any raise in wages make us have less purchasing power. A raise in the minimum wage lessens the value of our savings. It is a disincentive to save. A raise in the minimum wage only helps the bottom wage earner until prices catch up.
If a person at the bottom of the wage scale gets a 10% wage, soon everyone else will have to get a 10% wage raise. Then the wage part of the price of things will have to have at least a 10% rise to cover the new wage raises. Is there any way that prices can stay the same if all wages go up 10% ?
You have many studies that show that a raise in minimum wages does little or nothing to spending power, inflation or whatever. If they go against common sense, I will look askance at them for quite a while.
“Bob — minimum wage raises are not responsible for all increases in prices. I would think the rise in fuel cost would be a major contributor.”
Yes, and so would taxes and regulatory fees, and costs of utilities, and higher health care costs, and mandated additions (in California, all new houses now must have sprinklers installed) add to increases in prices.
bob — a decline in purchasing power is only related to min wage if and only if there is a causal link to inflation — but none has never been demonstrated. What has been asserted by economists and others is theory and “common sense”, the problem with both is they consider the minimum wage and inflation as the sole variables. Inflation can occur separately and the min. wage hike can be absorbed into the economy via other factors.
“Common sense” and theory has blocked min wage hikes in the past and now min wage has fallen behind inflation leading a a permanent backward slide. In your comments, you acknowledge min. wage can (in the very least) providing a temp. move forward. Better a temp move forward, than a permanent move backward. And as the economy adjust for the wage hike elsewhere (management wages, shareholder profit, promotions, marketing, training costs, etc), the temporary fix may prove to be permanent.
The first useful thing the Republican party did was end slavery, the last was to elect Theo Roosevelt. Its been a backward slide ever since with maybe a temporary reprieve with Eisenhower.
As a businessman, I can expand my business in several ways:
1. I can hire new American workers.
2. I can purchase equipment to do the work of the workers.
3. I can contract out the work to foreign companies using foreign workers.
Unfortunately, the US has a huge number of people with low skills (thanks to our horrible public education system), a poor work ethic (thanks to our culture and welfare system) and high healthcare costs (thanks to our semi-socialized system). Due to healthcare uncertainty, the breakdown in our lending industry and the overall anti-business attitude in Washington, I am cautious about expansion. If the minimum wage is raised, I will be more likely to choose options 2 or 3. There are many Americans who can’t or won’t produce value equal to the current minimum wage.
If I was the dictator of the US, I would allow many of the recent immigrants to stay, but would deport Americans who are faking disability or drawing long term welfare benefits to Central America.
In hindsight, it is easy to see that Anita Bryant was America’s Jonah. She sacrificed her career trying to protect America’s children. Unlike Nineveh, the US chose not to repent. Bryant deserves the thanks and respects of every Christian. She did her Ezekiel 33 duty.
Donna J, I have been thinking about Bryant over the last few days as she made my 12 finalists to be included in the “Pretty Women Doing Conservative Things” album I posted on Facebook. The list also included Sophia Loren waiving a Confederate flag and my wife dining at an Oklahoma City restaurant before a Thunder game.
Enjoy your orange juice. 🙂
I only brought up 2 objections to raising the minimum wage; people on fixed incomes, and saving for old age. You have answered many objections to raising the minimum wage, but not these two.
As for the last thing the Democratic Party did that was good? Uh, uh, uh … … …
Bob, Your generation will probably be the last generation of Americans that gets to retire. Mine knows that we are at the wrong end of the twin Ponzi schemes of Social Security and Medicare, so it will be “work till you drop” for us. No amount of income or savings will make you secure with the Democrats (or wimpy Republicans) in charge.
Bob — I still fail to see how savings and fixed income connect to min wage.
Ricky — The min wage will have to raise quite high before it will be cheaper for a machine to say will you have fries with that. As for health care cost, American’s is the highest in the world mainly because of its semi-status than anything else. GM stayed in Ontario precisely because of our gov’t single payer system is far cheaper than mixed-care found in the US. Eliminate health care uncertainty by taking the responsibility away from the employers and into the state.
HRW, Some American fast food places have already farmed out the work on the fast food intercom to India. Raise the minimum wage and everyone will be ordering their Big Mac by talking to a person in Mumbai.
Before healthcare was semi-socialized (prior to 1965) America dominated global manufacturing.
I like the woman pictured and she passes the “pretty” test, but she is clearly a moderate. There is no Duck Dynasty gear, and she is posing in front of the Yankee flag.
Yeah, I saw facebook feeds accounting the so-called “backfire” related to that woman with the gun/Bible/flag. It says something of the liberal “critique” for them to think there’s anything but the most superficial “similarity” between the two women in question–typical liberal unhingedness, although Ricky is right about her likely being a “moderate.” ( 🙂 )
I don’t think too many people were unhinged — just amused someone’s attention seeking behavior managed to garner an unusual comparison. I did find it amusing they had the same smile.
Service and retail industries are learning (the hard war) that it pays to pay well and local —
On the contrary, local retailers are facing increasing pressure from national companies that can provide same day delivery of the same product at a lower price. Low skilled workers are learning (the hard way) that they better produce or they will be out of a job. Of course, in that case they can join the 53% on unemployment, social security disability, food stamps, Section 8 housing, Medicaid, Obamaphones, etc.
Service and retail businesses have learned not to hire too many workers or they will be subject to the requirements of Obamacare. They have also learned to avoid government requirements by hiring more part-time workers and fewer full-time employees. Since most liberals have little or no actual business experience, they never foresee the unintended consequences of their do-gooder legislation.
Starting level worker $9 an hour, July 1, 2014. A 12.5% raise.
Counter worker (Past probationary 3 months) was $9 an hour, now to keep the same ratio $9.125 an hour.
Asst. manager (Shift manager) was $10 an hour, now to keep the same ratio $11.25 an hour.
Store manager was $15 an hour, now to keep the same ratio $16.875 an hour.
Where does this added cost to the owner of the hamburger stand get this money? Only one place, higher prices for the hamburgers, fries and cokes. Where does this extra cost come from? MY POCKET!
Of course this does nothing to my purchasing power.
Oh, and it also does nothing to the rate of inflation.
And it certainly doesn’t affect the purchasing power of my savings.
But of course, the California State Teacher’s Retirement system will also give me and all the other retired teachers a 12.5% raise so that I can retain my purchasing power.
Now I am sure that you will quote a University or think tank study that shows how this doesn’t work this way. Oh, I know, a European Union survey!
Oh lots and lots of people were unhinged about the woman, hwesseli. Just read the comments on any liberal site where the “comparisons” were made via this article. Totally unable to process reality or express coherent thought, unless it’s something so profound as to note similarity of smiles–because you just *know* that’s all Hamas.
Wandering Views 
The Real, you asked a question of HRW and I at the end of yesterday’s thread which I will try to answer.
First off, I do apologize for how strongly I expressed myself yesterday, especially the Godwin’s law violation – that was not right.
Now about the report of M-13 recruitments within these camps. Aside from the fact that the article’s reliability is called into question by their failure to ascertain the facts about the diseases, the article is based only on one shadowy witness – “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” However, since it is not beyond the grounds of possibility that a few gang members should have crept in with the rest, I would point out a few logical deductions that come to mind:
a) M-13 is already in the US. I remember reading an article, I think in 2008, about a member of that gang and I believe the PBS series “Gangland” featured them as well.
b) Since M-13 is established, they will be recruiting whoever falls to their net – inner city youth, vulnerable immigrants, and even bored or greedy upper-middle class young people.
c) The report might be perfectly true about gang members using Red Cross phones – but who is to say it wasn’t more than two or three such youth (as plurals are not specific) and further, if the border official was aware of that use, those youth have probably been dealt with. I know here at least, being a member of certain criminal gangs is alone grounds for being arrested.
Furthermore:
d) Bob Buckles’ link from yesterday would indicate that the immigrant children are acting upon a law passed in 2008 and was intended to provide asylum for those threatened by the violence in Central America.
e) The interviewee also stated that these children are not crossing the border clandestinely, but voluntarily turning themselves over to the border agents, in the hope that they qualify to enter the US under this law. So, these camps are in fact processing children who entered the country legally.
f) There is always a danger that organized crime will try to take advantage of immigration. Not all Sicilian Italians in the early 1900’s were fleeing from the Mafia control in Sicily, but as we know now, there were more that would become upstanding citizens of America than would follow the Godfathers. Had we denied all Sicilians the right to emigrate to North America on the grounds that some might belong to the Mafia, some of my Christian friends and relatives never would have been born.
Finally, there is an unspoken assumption in the article (and blatantly written in the comments that follow it) that somehow these children are more likely than other children to become gang members. In one sense I would agree, children from broken homes are more vulnerable to gangs, as they are seeking a place to belong. In another sense, I vehemently disagree – Central American children do not carry a genetic predisposition to criminality any more than do American children descended from European settlers – they are all descended from Adam. Those who take over the care of the children have the opportunity to help protect them from those who would prey upon their vulnerability. That would be where the Church could make a difference.
LikeLike
The anti-immigrant, for lack of a better description, demonstrations are just ugly.
But the chaotic situation unfolding at the border is unsustainable in terms of any kind of cogent immigration policy. Something needs to be figured out on how to better deal with this.
Below are excerpts from a WaPo piece posted by Veith:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2014/07/behind-the-child-immigration-scandal/#more-19368
“President George W. Bush signed the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act on Dec. 23, 2008, thinking he was fighting the global traffic in sex slaves, many of them children. The Democratic Congress that passed the bill agreed. Hence its title, an homage to 19th-century Britain’s greatest foe of the slave trade.
“Half a decade later, the Wilberforce Act has mutated into a source of chaos, the victims of which are children, and the greatest beneficiaries, human traffickers. …
” … This isn’t anyone’s idea of sustainable immigration; at least it shouldn’t be. Some call the situation a humanitarian crisis. I prefer ‘national scandal.’ “
LikeLike
Unfortunately, the U.S. federal government appears to be completely broken at this point, making it highly unlikely that anything constructive will get resolved. As someone once said, if they were children, we’d send them (congress AND the president) to their rooms.
But there is support for immigration reform among voters:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2014/07/09/immigration-polling-tells-congress-to-act/
” … A national poll of 1000 likely voters plus polls in 26 states of 500-855 likely voters conducted by a GOP firm, Harper Polling, found high support even among Republicans for immigration reform. The findings, provided to Right Turn, suggest the anti-immigration forces are loud but in the distinct minority. …
” … Ironically the border crisis, which anti-immigrant forces trumpet as evidence of the dangers of legalization, has if anything highlighted the urgency for fixing the immigration system. … “
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AJ — roscuro answered for me. Criminality, like disease, especially linked to a specific ethnicity is a common anti-immigrant meme both in the 19th century and today. Criminality and disease are both memes used to raise fear of the “other” ie the immigrants. I though my reference to Hodstadler was a reference to all fear based memes not just disease.
Bob — minimum wage raises are not responsible for all increases in prices. I would think the rise in fuel cost would be a major contributor.
LikeLike
HRW, From yesterday: I’m sorry I can’t tell you what armadillo tastes like. If I have ever eaten any, it was put in chile or Mexican food without my knowledge.
I eat bison regularly and venison sausage when one of my buddies has extra meat. I second your opinion on Kobe beef. I had a Kobe beef burger in Las Vegas last year at a “Burger Bar”. It was worth the price. The place also had individual televisions in each booth, so we watched the Thunder dismantle the Jazz as we drank our milkshakes for dessert.
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Here is the menu:
http://www.burger-bar.com/lv_menu.php
The place is great. Sadly, I understand PJ Clarke’s has closed its Las Vegas location. We were in town to watch the PAC 12 basketball tournament. I hadn’t been to Las Vegas in 30+ years. The gambling scene looks pretty depressing, but it is a great place to watch basketball and eat good food.
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hwesseli,
You seem to find little to nothing wrong with raising the minimum wage. I suggest that to those of us who have a fixed retirement income, any raise in wages make us have less purchasing power. A raise in the minimum wage lessens the value of our savings. It is a disincentive to save. A raise in the minimum wage only helps the bottom wage earner until prices catch up.
If a person at the bottom of the wage scale gets a 10% wage, soon everyone else will have to get a 10% wage raise. Then the wage part of the price of things will have to have at least a 10% rise to cover the new wage raises. Is there any way that prices can stay the same if all wages go up 10% ?
You have many studies that show that a raise in minimum wages does little or nothing to spending power, inflation or whatever. If they go against common sense, I will look askance at them for quite a while.
LikeLike
hwesseli,
“Bob — minimum wage raises are not responsible for all increases in prices. I would think the rise in fuel cost would be a major contributor.”
Yes, and so would taxes and regulatory fees, and costs of utilities, and higher health care costs, and mandated additions (in California, all new houses now must have sprinklers installed) add to increases in prices.
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Remember hwessli, I belong to the Stupid Party, not the Evil Party.
My party was against slavery. The other one was for it.
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bob — a decline in purchasing power is only related to min wage if and only if there is a causal link to inflation — but none has never been demonstrated. What has been asserted by economists and others is theory and “common sense”, the problem with both is they consider the minimum wage and inflation as the sole variables. Inflation can occur separately and the min. wage hike can be absorbed into the economy via other factors.
“Common sense” and theory has blocked min wage hikes in the past and now min wage has fallen behind inflation leading a a permanent backward slide. In your comments, you acknowledge min. wage can (in the very least) providing a temp. move forward. Better a temp move forward, than a permanent move backward. And as the economy adjust for the wage hike elsewhere (management wages, shareholder profit, promotions, marketing, training costs, etc), the temporary fix may prove to be permanent.
The first useful thing the Republican party did was end slavery, the last was to elect Theo Roosevelt. Its been a backward slide ever since with maybe a temporary reprieve with Eisenhower.
LikeLike
As a businessman, I can expand my business in several ways:
1. I can hire new American workers.
2. I can purchase equipment to do the work of the workers.
3. I can contract out the work to foreign companies using foreign workers.
Unfortunately, the US has a huge number of people with low skills (thanks to our horrible public education system), a poor work ethic (thanks to our culture and welfare system) and high healthcare costs (thanks to our semi-socialized system). Due to healthcare uncertainty, the breakdown in our lending industry and the overall anti-business attitude in Washington, I am cautious about expansion. If the minimum wage is raised, I will be more likely to choose options 2 or 3. There are many Americans who can’t or won’t produce value equal to the current minimum wage.
If I was the dictator of the US, I would allow many of the recent immigrants to stay, but would deport Americans who are faking disability or drawing long term welfare benefits to Central America.
LikeLike
In hindsight, it is easy to see that Anita Bryant was America’s Jonah. She sacrificed her career trying to protect America’s children. Unlike Nineveh, the US chose not to repent. Bryant deserves the thanks and respects of every Christian. She did her Ezekiel 33 duty.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Our_Children
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OK, I’ll confess Im struggling trying to wrap my mind around Anita Bryant as Jonah. 😉
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And I’m suddenly craving orange juice.
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Donna J, I have been thinking about Bryant over the last few days as she made my 12 finalists to be included in the “Pretty Women Doing Conservative Things” album I posted on Facebook. The list also included Sophia Loren waiving a Confederate flag and my wife dining at an Oklahoma City restaurant before a Thunder game.
Enjoy your orange juice. 🙂
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hwesseli,
I only brought up 2 objections to raising the minimum wage; people on fixed incomes, and saving for old age. You have answered many objections to raising the minimum wage, but not these two.
As for the last thing the Democratic Party did that was good? Uh, uh, uh … … …
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Bob, Your generation will probably be the last generation of Americans that gets to retire. Mine knows that we are at the wrong end of the twin Ponzi schemes of Social Security and Medicare, so it will be “work till you drop” for us. No amount of income or savings will make you secure with the Democrats (or wimpy Republicans) in charge.
LikeLike
Bob — I still fail to see how savings and fixed income connect to min wage.
Ricky — The min wage will have to raise quite high before it will be cheaper for a machine to say will you have fries with that. As for health care cost, American’s is the highest in the world mainly because of its semi-status than anything else. GM stayed in Ontario precisely because of our gov’t single payer system is far cheaper than mixed-care found in the US. Eliminate health care uncertainty by taking the responsibility away from the employers and into the state.
Here’s a pretty conservative women who might have taken Ricky’s idea a little too far; http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/06/womans-attempt-to-troll-liberals-backfires-when-someone-notices-this-disturbing-similarity/
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HRW, Some American fast food places have already farmed out the work on the fast food intercom to India. Raise the minimum wage and everyone will be ordering their Big Mac by talking to a person in Mumbai.
Before healthcare was semi-socialized (prior to 1965) America dominated global manufacturing.
I like the woman pictured and she passes the “pretty” test, but she is clearly a moderate. There is no Duck Dynasty gear, and she is posing in front of the Yankee flag.
LikeLike
Yeah, I saw facebook feeds accounting the so-called “backfire” related to that woman with the gun/Bible/flag. It says something of the liberal “critique” for them to think there’s anything but the most superficial “similarity” between the two women in question–typical liberal unhingedness, although Ricky is right about her likely being a “moderate.” ( 🙂 )
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I don’t think too many people were unhinged — just amused someone’s attention seeking behavior managed to garner an unusual comparison. I did find it amusing they had the same smile.
Service and retail industries are learning (the hard war) that it pays to pay well and local —
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On the contrary, local retailers are facing increasing pressure from national companies that can provide same day delivery of the same product at a lower price. Low skilled workers are learning (the hard way) that they better produce or they will be out of a job. Of course, in that case they can join the 53% on unemployment, social security disability, food stamps, Section 8 housing, Medicaid, Obamaphones, etc.
Service and retail businesses have learned not to hire too many workers or they will be subject to the requirements of Obamacare. They have also learned to avoid government requirements by hiring more part-time workers and fewer full-time employees. Since most liberals have little or no actual business experience, they never foresee the unintended consequences of their do-gooder legislation.
LikeLike
hwesseli,
Let’s take a simple hamburger stand.
Starting level worker $8 an hour, Jan 1, 2008. (CA minimum wage.)
http://www.dir.ca.gov/iwc/minimumwagehistory.htm
Starting level worker $9 an hour, July 1, 2014. A 12.5% raise.
Counter worker (Past probationary 3 months) was $9 an hour, now to keep the same ratio $9.125 an hour.
Asst. manager (Shift manager) was $10 an hour, now to keep the same ratio $11.25 an hour.
Store manager was $15 an hour, now to keep the same ratio $16.875 an hour.
Where does this added cost to the owner of the hamburger stand get this money? Only one place, higher prices for the hamburgers, fries and cokes. Where does this extra cost come from? MY POCKET!
Of course this does nothing to my purchasing power.
Oh, and it also does nothing to the rate of inflation.
And it certainly doesn’t affect the purchasing power of my savings.
But of course, the California State Teacher’s Retirement system will also give me and all the other retired teachers a 12.5% raise so that I can retain my purchasing power.
Now I am sure that you will quote a University or think tank study that shows how this doesn’t work this way. Oh, I know, a European Union survey!
How about, Obama says so.
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Oops!
“Counter worker (Past probationary 3 months) was $9 an hour, now to keep the same ratio $9.125 an hour.”
Should be $10.125.
My Bad!!
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Oh lots and lots of people were unhinged about the woman, hwesseli. Just read the comments on any liberal site where the “comparisons” were made via this article. Totally unable to process reality or express coherent thought, unless it’s something so profound as to note similarity of smiles–because you just *know* that’s all Hamas.
LikeLike