Good Morning!
It’s finally Friday! 🙂
What should we talk about today?
Quote of the Day
“To know how to grow old is the master work of wisdom, and one of the most difficult chapters in the great art of living.”
Herman Melville
QoD
What’s your favorite “classic” novel?
Bonus QoD
Anybody get any good candy?
We did. Josh Early, the good stuff, which is made locally. 🙂
Wandering Views 
Wake Up everybody!
It’s Friday. You know what that means?
I don’t either, except the Y and Lions. I have no plans.
Twenty percent chance of snow tomorrow and everyone’s excited..
Cool it everybody. That means there’s an eighty percent chance it won’t snow.
Don’t abandon your cars yet.
I didn’t get any candy. But I got a valentine card.
Just a little card addressed just to “Charlie”.
That’s me.
Can’t sort out a favorite classic novel right now.
Pilgrim’s Progress?
Lord of the rings?
Tom Sawyer?
GWTW?
Boggels my mind. Maybe later.
Bye now.
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QOD: Ivanhoe. Robert E. Lee read it to Mary Custis while they were courting. I like to reread it every five years.
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It’s a good thing I didn’t give up red meat for Lent. My Valentine had steaks seasoned and waiting to go on the grill when I got home. He had chocolate covered strawberries, mashed potatoes, and mushrooms and onions. He also had a bottle of my favorite wine and a card waiting as well.
The VERY best thing he did though is this morning when I got up, I found that he had remembered to BUY COFFEE!
Favorite book? I;ve read so many but haven’t read any of the classics in a few years. Atlas Shrugged made an impression on me. The book Gone With The Wind is far better than the movie, but the movie is good. I have tried on several occassions to read All the King’s Men and finally just watched the movie. I will call that close enough. I really do enjoy biographies.
Remember that I am leaving for Dallas tomorrow and won’t be back until Wednesday. George will have BG and he and Paul have worked out a schedule for Amos. Amos will spend the weekend with George but come back home Monday morning so he won’t have to stay in the house by himself. (tongue in cheek) I am glad they can be so adult about the custody of MY dog! 😉
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I’m getting sushi for a late valentine lunch. Hubby was out of town yesterday.
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QOD: Tale of Two Cities. Mme Defarge is such a good Villain. You really get a feel for the bloodlust of the Jacobins. It was a scary time in French history. It is interesting to ponder the vast differences between the American Revolution and the French Revolution. It was so God-less over there at that time.
Candy? no – I have given up all refined sugar and desserts for lent.
But we did have an unplanned dinner out last night. I took my cat to the vets because she needed her teeth cleaned. that’s an all day affair because they put the animals under for that. so the vet called and said she’d be ready to come home around 4PM. So at 3:45 I hopped in my car for the 15 min drive to the vet. I was driving southbound on I95 in rush early hour traffic, and here in northern VA, all routes south are bad during the evening rush. there was an accident in the HOV lanes between me and the vet, just before it all exits into the regular lanes. so I got to the vet’s office around 5:05 and then was at the vets for about 15 min and it was about a 20 min drive home. It was almost 6 when I got home and all the rest of the pets (3 dogs) settled because they could smell that we had been to “the place.” They all had to sniff up the cat.
We would not have eaten until about 8PM. So DH and DS took me to dinner at Glory Days, because we figured that there would be fewer valentines day couples at a sports bar/restaraunt. We each got to spin their prize wheel and ended up with a free entree, a free specialty burger and a free dessert for future visits.
Fun time! 🙂
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So? Stephanie married a foreigner named Stephen and who speaks another language.
And KBells married an Auburn man.
😆
When we were courting, I promised Elvera that I would get one of those clip on mirrors to put on the sun visor if she would marry me. She did, and I did. Now, the car has a mirror with a light. But she complains that the truck doesn’t have a seat warmer.
I didn’t know that mirrors were so important to girls.
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QoD: To Kill a Mockingbird. So many important themes in that book. And minor ones like football and homeschooling. People say Huck Finn is the quintessential American novel, but I think it was only until TKAM.
So many I love though it is hard to name a favorite. Some already mentioned here, but Cry, the Beloved Country is fantastic. Les Miserables is a wonder. Silence (the one by Endo), The Joy Luck Club, Poisonwood Bible, anything by Tolkien of course, oh I want to go read . . .
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Good Morning…it’s cold..and we got a dusting of snow yesterday…just enough to make the driveway slippery…Paul and Hannah had difficulty making it over the little hill at the entrance…Paul is out there snowblowing it off….he loves doing that kind of stuff 🙂
I happen to be a Classics reader…they are my favorite…I love Dickens, Austen, Dostoyevsky, Alcott, CS Lewis, Chesterton…..on and on and on..
Little Women would have to be my favorite…it is probably the first “classic” I read as a child…and I read it over and over and over
I did like Crime and Punishment…there are so many life lessons hidden within the pages of these books…
Candy…not too much of a fan…I do like truffles…but…when I indulge..it has to be my homemade Hershey’s Fudge…it’s just the best
Have a blessed day everyone…praying for your trip Kim…good to see everyone will be “minding the store” just fine while you are gone 🙂
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. . . Last of the Mohicans, The Call of the Wild, so many great books, anything by Flannery O’conner . . . To the Lighthouse . . . Nine Bells . . . A Passage to India . . .Dr. Jekll and Mr. Hide . . . Don Quiote . . . anything by Dostoevky or Austion, or a Bronte . . . Gulliveers Travels . . . A Brave New World . . .
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I don’t consider Brave New World and 1984 to be classic, but they are important books about what is likely to happen when the government gets to take care of all of us. They are both mirror images of each other. And neither is good.
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I had three favorite writers when I was younger and had time to read. Mark Twain, Louisa May Alcott and Charles Dickens. My favorite from each was Tom Sawyer, Little Women and Great Expectations.
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Interesting post on the top 10 reasons why kids leave church: http://marc5solas.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/top-10-reasons-our-kids-leave-church/
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Chas, my husband’s Prius has a seat warmer. 🙂 You can tell Elvera that or not, your choice. It is a little more important in Indiana, though. (It isn’t why I married him, though.)
Classic books, too many to list, and I have a deadline today.
Misten says “Lassie, of course.”
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So, Kim, how are y’all handling the arrival of a big boatload of stinky tourist down there.
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Now I know. I knew Elvera married me for my car. That’s all I had.
Cheryl married hers for the seat warmer.
😆
Have a nice trip to Dallas Kim, It gets cold in Dallas. It may also be hot. You can’t tell there.
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My husband married me for my clock and my toaster. I married him for his motorcycle.
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Anonymous
Feb 15, 2013 @ 10:11:04
I have 3 children. They are all adults. Of those three, only one is a non-believer. While I love all three of my children and I made sure that my children were raised in the church and taught the scriptures, you can only lead a horse to water, you can’t make him drink. I can only call my one unredeemed child to repentance. I cannot do the effectual call and grant him repentance and faith. Only God can do that. Only God can regenerate the soul. Only God can raise a dead soul to a new life in Christ. While the article you mentioned was a good article, the author did not define the true gospel of repentance. I am sure that Issac loved Jacob and Esau, but it was Jacob that God chose. My children all went through the public school system and were exposed to the same dribble that all children are exposed too, yet both my daughters have turned out to be godly women who do not compromise their faith or values in this vile corrupt world.
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I married Cindi because she had the most beautiful eyes and a beautiful voice.
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We have four adult children. Two attend church regularly. They are both married to fellow believers. The other two do not attend church more than a couple of times a year, both claim to be believers but they do not go “because it is very lonely to go to church as unmarried thirtyish people”.
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Have to answer this QoD, but as it is impossible to limit oneself to one, I will go by author in category instead:
Male novelist: Charles Dickens – Favorite: Our Mutual Friend – Most famous: David Copperfield – Best written: Bleak House
Female novelist: Jane Austen – Favorite: Northanger Abbey – Most famous: Pride and Prejudice – Best written: Persuasion
Adventure novelist: John Buchan – Favorite: A Salute to Adventurers – Most famous: The Thirty-Nine Steps – Best written: Greenmantle
Historical novelist: Rosemary Sutcliff – Favorite: The Shield Ring – Most famous: The Eagle of the Ninth – Best Written: The Lantern Bearers
Social novelist: G.K. Chesterton (others may dispute this category, but his novels were witty and stinging statements on societal issues) – Favorite & Best written: The Napoleon of Notting Hill – Most famous: The Man who was Thursday
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Anon – That was some interesting reading. It hit the nail right on the head.
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Mumsee: My SF bad boy had a motorcycle too. We rode that thing all up and down the California coast. I have always told him it was his bike not his hat (Green Beret) that I was atttracted to. We got rid of the bike during the todler years, and finally got another one 2 years ago. Finally got to ride in our first Rolling Thunder last year.
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Seat warmers rock. I have them in my ’07 Jeep, didn’t think I’d use them much. But I do turn mine on every Wednesday morning when I have to leave for work before it gets light out. These winter mornings have been cold (for us). The seat warmer is wonderful.
Tom Sawyer and To Kill a Mockingbird stick out in my mind.
Kim, 2 men, a teenager and a dog. What could possibly go wrong? 🙂
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And when it comes to films made from books, “To Kill a Mockingbird” has to be one of the best.
So how is the Bible reading coming along with everyone? I’m happy to say I’m on track (almost 2 months!). I slid behind a few times here and there (and no doubt will again), but I think for now I’ve hit my stride. And it’s just easier for me to do it at night before going to bed rather than first thing in the morning when I’m still trying to force the cobwebs out of my head.
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http://www.viddler.com/v/b5b1d425
I HAD to pop in and share this….
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Anonymous was me on the Ipad.
I just thought it was interesting. I’ve got one who is not a regular, but he tells us he believes and so I’m just trusting God is at work in spite of him.
Kathleena posted this interesting piece on FB; “Growing Up With Two Moms”:
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/
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I know you all need to laugh, so here is the best story from my days in LA.
A friend of ours was in Germany at a small train station waiting for the train. A woman came up who did not speak English, but who wanted to know when her train would be coming.
B looked at the information and tried to explain the woman had fifteen minutes or so.
Suddenly, the woman pointed down the train track and screamed.
B tried to reassure her, “No, your train isn’t coming for fifteen minutes,” She held out her arm to show the woman on her watch.
The screaming and pointing continued, B turned around and there was a hippopotamus trundling down the tracks in their direction.
B screamed, too, and they ran into the station.
The hippo had escaped from the zoo.
B didn’t say if she made the train . . . 🙂
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Michelle – now there’s a sight you don’t usually see while waiting for a train in Germany! 😉 At least I never saw one in 8 years of living there.
Hippos are dangerous animals.
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Kim – you made me cry! What a beautiful love story!
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cbadwjh @09:18
I never managed to get through “The Last of the Mohicans” when we were required to read it in seventh grade social studies. Couldn’t figure out why.
Years later, I found Mark Twain’s reaction to it:
http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~jmundale/Twain.html
http://twain.lib.virginia.edu/projects/rissetto/offense.html
🙂
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KBells, after sticking Mobile with a 20 million dollar cruise ship terminal that is useless and is still costing tax payers money they dragged their stinky ship into our port to dump it on our doorstep (possibley to have Austill repair it) off loaded their passengers and bussed them to New Orleans and back to Texas.
Some passengers had family who met them here so they got hotel rooms. Churches and other volunteer organizations were there last night to help the passengers but you don’t hear much of what all we have done for Carnival in the news now do you.
Donna, I am afraid the two men might gang up on the teenager and kill her. She isn’t very endearing to either of them right now. I fought a round with her father yesterday. She is mad at her stepfather because he put the TV in her room and he took it away yesterday.
Quite frankly, Amos might be the best one in the group
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I’m jumping in here even though I’m still trying to catch up from Wednesday.
A friend of mine (a fellow Christian) was lamenting on Facebook that, because her husband thinks Valentine’s Day is stupid, he doesn’t get her any flowers or chocolate. She also lamented having these emotions that cause her to feel so badly about this, even though he shows his love for her in many ways throughout the year.
As many Christians do, she reminded herself & her readers that love is an action, not an emotion.
2 thoughts on all this…
1.) On one hand, a wife should not expect her husband to treat her the way she dreams of being treated, such as Tina would love to be treated by Mark (not their real names) today. On the other hand, I think part of a husband’s loving his wife biblically would be to make an effort to do a little something “romantic” for her on this day, even if he thinks it’s stupid.
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2.) As I wrote to Tina,
“I’ve heard the saying about love being an action (or behavior), not an emotion many, many times over the years. I MOSTLY agree with it, but I see it a bit differently.
“To me, love is indeed an emotion, but it is proved true by its actions.
“For example, I am very glad & grateful that my husband loves me with his actions & behavior. But if he didn’t love me with his emotions, those actions would seem empty.
“So many Christians (myself included) also emphasize that our faith is not an emotion, but based on God’s word. This is true at its core. But God made us with emotions, too, & true faith & real love will at times stir (or be stirred by) our emotions.
“However, of course, we cannot base ALL our love or ALL our faith on the way we feel, because our emotions can indeed lead us astray. There are certainly times when we don’t *feel* loving towards man nor God. But we *act* out of love.
“I think I could probably polish this up a bit better, but my daughter Chrissy has announced that dinner is ready, so I don’t want to keep her waiting.”
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Valentine’s Day at the O-Zone?
No flowers or candy, but I’m okay with that. Today Lee will pick up a bunch of chocolates for all of us, at a greatly reduced price. And it won’t be for a belated Valentine’s Day, but because he loves chocolate!
But he did express his love for me, as he does on a regular basis, & that was enough for me. He’s a keeper! 🙂
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Favorite classic novel: Can’t decide among sevaral Dickens or Don Quijote.
But my favorite thing to do here is provide a little humor.
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Thanks for posting that article here from Kathleena’s FB page. It sure is an unintended consequence for the LGBT community and an inconvenient truth. You mean it’s a behavior we can CHOOSE not to engage in? Yeah, they don’t want to hear that because it shoots holes in the fallacy that is their premise.
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🙂
Some good ones today Peter.
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Still catching up on Wednesday’s thread. Not because I’m a slow reader, but because I read several comments & then do other things.
Anyway, Kim wrote, ” I also don’t want a big dog until I have more than 1100SF to live in. Currently we have a dog, a cat, a 15 year old, and two adults.”
I can sympathize. That’s approximately what we have in our downstairs home. (You may remember we rent out the upstairs of our 2-family home.) We have four adults, one toddler, three cats, & two dogs, one of which, Kane, the American Bulldog, weighs close to 80lbs. (Heidi, the Miniature Schnauzer- Pit Bull mix, weighs about 40lbs.) And we have only two actual bedrooms. (The living room doubles as Emily & Forrest’s room.)
Let’s just say it’s not the dogs that make me wish for a little “mother-in-law” apartment for Lee & I. 🙂
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Peter is kinda tricky with those cartoons.
I hadn’t seen most of them.
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Why do we allow ourselves to place so much emphasis on romantic love every Feb 14th? Do we also have an unrealistic view of love provided for us by Disney when we were children (Someday my prince will come and we’ll all live happily ever after) and by tv and movies (hey – if there’s chemistry, just jump into bed with whoever and call it “love”, and in the public figures we look up to? (The intellectual and social elites are teaching us what love is and when the going gets tough in a relationship we stop loving them – “I don’t love you anymore” In light of all this, Feb 14th gets way more significance than it deserves, but it sure helps the economy. Are we celebrating it as lemmings because everyone else is doing it?
My 28 year old son who is single calls it “Singleness Awareness Day, because on Feb 14th he is even more acutely aware that he is not in a relationship and how lonely he is.
It’s like going to church without your spouse and feeling like a square peg in a round hole because everything at church is so family oriented, as it should be, but it does nothing to assuage the feeling of not being part of the community completely.
And in the English language, love gets lost in translation from the Greek, even among Christians.
Agape love has absolutely NOTHING to do with emotions. It’s source is God and only someone in a relationship with God can even exercise this kind of love. Agapao is the Greek word used in the “Love chapter” 1 Corinthians 13. It is self-sacrificing, it is unconditional, it is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22). It is the love of God toward all of mankind (John 3:16) It can be commanded (with or without feelings attached to it) John 13:34 – God commands us tro love one another as He loves us. It can be commanded and carried out without feelings. (I have prayed sometimes, God, I cannot find it within myself to love this person as You would have me do. Love them through me.” He always does. He is the source of this love. It does not require a response from the object of its expression. It is the highest form of love and does not reject another. It is what holds a marriage together. (Especially when one or both of the spouses are not “feeling” it.) It seeks the highest good of the beloved and not its own interests.
Storge – is a familial love. It is an innate intuitive love, of parent and child. It is only used in the negative in the Bible, as in this type of love will be lacking (Romans 1:31 and 2 Tim 3:3). It is a conditional type of love.
Phileo – it is a responsive kind of love. It is expressed in response to the kindness and character of another. You feel it back toward another. It requires a response. It is conditional. This is the love that God the Father has for God the Son (John 5:20). It is the love that God has for those who love Jesus. (John 16:27) This love should be present within a marriage and a family. It is a love Christians are to have for one another.
Eros – This Greek word for love is NEVER used in the Bible. It is a word for sensual pleasure, and is the lowest form of love. It is a secular word. Our world today puts all the emphasis on this type of love. This word is not in God’s vocabulary. This type of love responds and is gratified in a physical way, and it is also emotional – infatuation.
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KLasko, I agree with some of what you say, and the sentiment behind it, but I disagree with much as well.
First, I agree that Hollywood love is a bad model. In that story, a person who has met and married “the wrong” person can make it right by divorcing and finding and marrying The One Person Who Is Right for You (even if he/she is currently married to someone else). And how do you know this person is “right for you”? Because you get weak in the knees, suffer insomnia, and you find you just aren’t hungry anymore. As someone said, it’s either the flu or you’re in love.
We have encouraged a myth of marrying “because we’re in love.” It’s pretty much all you need in some circles–if you’re “in love,” then it’s the right one, and that love will last forever. If that love fades over time, then it wasn’t the right one after all.
I’m more and more for family involvement in marriage, if at all possible (if the family is wise, “on the same page” with the person seeking a spouse, etc.), or with some outside involvement, because people who are “in love” often make very foolish decisions. It’s more important that it be “a good match” (and a good match in important ways) than that the couple feel all tingly. In fact, if I had a choice between one of the girls marrying someone with whom she was desperately in love, but whose character or commitment was iffy, or marrying someone she didn’t “feel” anything for, but who was a really solid man, absolutely committed to her, I’d want her to marry the sure thing. The feelings of love will come; they’re secondary. (I’d want to be sure both parties were actually ready for marriage, however. If one has no libido at all, or one has serious levels of debt, or one isn’t 100% committed to marriage without possibility of divorce, I’d say it’s a red flag.)
That’s the agreement.
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All right, the disagreement. A pastor of mine made an interesting observation years ago that I’ve never heard anyone else make. He said that actually agape love is the lowest form of love, since it is the love you have for everyone. In other words, you don’t need to make any sort of commitment to a hungry person in order to give her a sandwich. You don’t need to “feel” love for her or like her. You simply meet her need because it’s the right thing to do.
However, phileo love is more specialized, and you do have an obligation to people with whom you have a relationship. I may make that sandwich for my friend, but I may also spend 12 hours with her in the hospital, or help clean her home; my relationship with her may require some sacrifice that I probably will not have to do for the stranger.
Family love and particularly spousal love is deeper still–a love for one’s spouse is covenant love. And sexual love is not less than other love; it is more, because in a Christian worldview it can only apply to one person. Hollywood has turned sexual love on its ear and taken the love out of it. But it’s supposed to be a human illustration of Christ’s love for the church, and much more intimate than mere agape love.
Love doesn’t “depend” on feelings, but feelings are part of love, and an important part. Does it “matter” whether my husband takes me out for Valentine’s Day and buys me chocolate? In one sense, no. It doesn’t matter if he remembers our anniversary either! But because we are in relationship, not a business partnership, it matters that he loves his wife in tender ways and not just practical, businesslike ways. I could feed him only beans and rice–it would be nutritious and would meet his needs. But I love him, and I cook a greater variety than that. I respond to him on a much deeper, more personal level than to the stranger at the homeless shelter who needs a sandwich.
And finally, even unbelievers are made in God’s image, and are capable of marriage and of marital love. Can they love as deeply as a sanctified, mature Christian? Probably not. But then, I know some believers who are kept from deep love too. We live in a fallen world, and none of us loves as well as we should. But unbelievers can and do love each other, and can and do have happy marriages.
Valentine’s Day isn’t a “necessary” celebration. Neither is Christmas, a wedding anniversary, or a birthday. But showing love to someone in a special way is a Christian principle worth defending, whether that includes these particular celebrations or not.
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Cheryl, Do you disagree with the word studies? You didn’t mention them.
I was on a rant because i have seen far too many Christians buy into the worldly myth and counterfeit of “love”.
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I thought I knew my favorite classic until I read all the other titles. Now I can’t choose just one! 😉 I don’t believe ‘Uncle Tom’s Cabin’ was mentioned. It is also very good. I never could get into “The Last of the Mohicans” either, but I really liked the movie. Very unusual for me.
Mumsee, I don’t like to go to church alone either, but certainly have when it was necessary. The secret is in finding those others who are uncomfortable being there alone. There are so many in the same boat.
I found the article on young people not returning to church interesting. Someone should remind them, though, that after awhile, the ball is in their park. Blaming others will not serve them well for long. While all those things may be true, they can also be excuses for just following our own inclinations.
I also find it interesting that the assumption is that the church should have been the ones discussing law and gospel. It is hard to believe in any church this is not touched on at some point. I haven’t attended that church and I visit quite a few. My point, however, is that one would think the parents might have mentioned something about this to their children during those eighteen years or so.
In my reading today, I came across Acts 5:43 “The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been considered worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.”
I think a lot of young adults really want to know what is worth suffering for or if there really is something that is. The Apostles knew there was no where else to go than to Christ, eventually. Long after this was spoken by one of them, they still fled and locked themselves in a room from the danger, wondering if they really knew what they thought they knew. They came to know it and Him again and with the power of the Holy Spirit they were never the same.
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KLasko, I’m on deadline and realistically don’t have time to be on here at all, but I need a brief break from the book. . . .
I don’t know Greek or Hebrew, and thus didn’t respond specifically to the “word studies.” But I did reference my (former) pastor’s heavy study of these words, and his conclusion: including the fact that indeed agape doesn’t need “emotion” at all. Because agape is simply treating someone in accord with their needs that we can meet; it doesn’t imply relationship at all.
However, emotions are a basic part of genuine relationships, particularly as those relationships become more intimate (friend to close family, family to spouse). A husband who earns a good living and provides every penny to his wife, comes home right after work, speaks to the children when they get out of line, and otherwise fulfills all his husbandly / family “duties” but never smiles at his wife or children, never gives a sympathetic look, never holds his wife and lets her cry, and never brings home something special (even if it’s just a goofy cartoon that made him think of her) isn’t “loving” his wife. Because emotion isn’t all there is love, but it most certainly is part of love.
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Sorry Cheryl, our comments passed in the ether. If you study the use of Agape in the context of all of its usages and also storge, and phileo and you look at it’s source , object and context, you might come away with a different perspective.
Eros is not a form of the word we translate as “love” that is used in Scripture. That is not to minimize the importance of physical intimacy, especially within in the confines of marriage, but eros is purely a selfish form of love (my pleasure – I love you because you make give me pleasure). We can express eros in our marriages, but the motivator behind it is the higher forms of love. I want to please you.
The fact that the word eros is not found in the Bible tells me that God does not place greater importance upon this form of love than He does of the form of love (agape) that is used most often in the NT. Look at all the love words in their contexts.
Agape is the form of love that keeps giving of itself at times when “I don’t particularly LIKE you right now.” You may not have experienced this in your marriage.I am committed to our marriage covenant, but I am so honked off with you right now. Most couples without God at the center call it quits at this point. It’s what keeps us keeping on in the hard times of the marriage.
Your pastor is mistaken. Agape is about so much more than the homeless guy who needs a sandwich at the homeless shelter. Agape is motivated by our love for God. Agape is a word NOT used in secular Greek circles. It is only found in the NT.
All I am saying is that some people are being made to fee guilty bu the card companies and all the secular hype of the Valentine’s Day holiday. That is not right. The food for thought question is, have we bought into the hype? I would rather my husband declare some other surprise day of the year our personal valentile’s day (Which is what our anniversary is for) than observe valentine’s day because everyone else is doing it.
I stand by my word studies.
Agape:
John 3:16
1 John 4:7-21
Romans 5:8
Romans 5:5
Galatians 5:22
John 3:35
Hebrews 12:6
John 13:34
John 14:15
John 15:9
Colossians 3:14
Romans 13:8-10
1 Peter 4:8
Ephesians 5:25
Ephesians 3:17
Ephesians 4:2
Ephesians 4:15
Ephesians 5:2
1 Thessalonians 3:12
1 Thessalonians 4:9-10 (Agapeo and philadelphia)
Phileo:
1 Thessalonians 4:9-10
Tutus 2:4
John 5:20
John 16:27
Storge
Romans 1:31 (unloving, without natural affection)
2 Timothy 3:3 (also used in the negative)
eros
used only in secular writings.
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Kim 🙂 Amos will just have to stay out of the way. If dogs could talk …
So I decided to do my grocery shopping on my lunch hour and stash everything in the lunchroom refrigerator at the office. Hope I don’t forget to take it all home, I wound up buying more than I’d planned.
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Chas – what’s up with your blog handle?
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Shhh. That’s Chas’ undercover spy ID.
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It looks the same on the “Leave a Reply” box,
So, I dunno.
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Re: Valentine’s Day and romantice love – As a reluctant single, I should loath this holiday and, yes, sometimes the cheap sentiment and even cheaper paraphenalia associated with it do indeed bother me, because I hate waste and tackiness. However, I really can’t hate this day because a dear grandmother used to hand-make Valentine’s Day cards and send them to all her grandchildren, always with a red heart made out of construction paper on the front and two sticks of gum inside. My mother continued the tradition of hand-made valentines, and my family sent me a cute, funny e-valentine this year. I never thought Valentine’s Day excluded singles. It was always a day about all the types of affection to be found amongst family members and friends.
I grew up believing in romantic love not because of the media, but because my parents and other married relatives demonstrated that it was a real possibility. My mother greeted my father every day after work with a kiss and she says her heart still beats faster when she hears my father come in the door. She also states that she loves him more now than when she married him. I have watched close relatives care for their dying spouses with loving tenderness and then seen them mourn their loss with a grief that was deeply moving in its depth and sincerity. I would like get married to the right man, not because of Hollywood, but because what my parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, and siblings had or have in their marriages is a wonderful reflection of Christ and His Church.
The importance of sexual love is found throughout Scripture. Consider the statements of Christ, Paul and Peter: “And they two shall become one flesh.” “Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence and the wife unto the husband.” “Marriage is honourable in all and the bed undefiled.” The ideals of romantic love – the desire for the beloved, the heroism and self-sacrifice of the lover, the beauty of the bride for her bridegroom – are not first found in classic romantic novels or medieval love poems or the myths of the Greeks and Romans. They are found in the pages of Scripture, like Psalm 45 and Ephesians 5:25-31. The Greek portion of the Bible may not contain the word eros, but surely the Hebraic Song of Songs more than compensates for the omission. God created the first romance in perfection. Sin was what warped it into a tool of torture. I can take or leave the holiday, but I would rather feel the pain of singleness for the rest of my life, than to lose the ideal of romantic love.
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?????????????
I’m back. It was just a quirk. I didn’t do anything different.
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Klaskp @ 15:24- everything at church is so family oriented, as it should be,
Really? I don’t find that in the Bible. The church should be Jesus oriented or it will just become another dead social club.
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Klasko – Here’s what a friend of a friend wrote on Facebook yesterday …
“Why can’t people just appreciate the opportunity to celebrate things? I get that most holidays have been commercialized and people should be loving and caring every day not just holidays yada, yada, yada…blah, blah, blah…wah, wah, wah. I see no problem in having one day a year to remind you to slow down in this fast paced world and really appreciate everything and everyone you have in your life to love. The people who take it too seriously are ironically the same people who spend all MONTH complaining about how much it sucks. Learn to embrace holidays in your own way. You don’t have to celebrate it the way the media tells you to but I promise if you just chilled … out and let everyone enjoy their holidays without making them feel guilty for wanting to do so, you might be able to lighten the h— up and enjoy it yourself. It’s such a fad to hate Valentines Day. Be original people!”
I copied that, then later added…
“Singles who lament that they are not currently in a relationship, & thus think Valentine’s Day sucks, should remember that this cute little ‘holiday’ is not for lovers only. Enjoy the day by lavishing love on your family & friends.”
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As for churches and families, my sense is that the family and marriage has particularly struggled through our recent cultural upheavals — in response, churches have especially been sensitive to supporting and nurturing family units in their midst, which is good.
But it can sometimes feel a little like overkill, I suppose. That said, however, I appreciate being in a church that offers a diversity (though perhaps an especially strong emphasis on big families, homeschooling, etc.). Singles will pretty much always be in a minority, especially within the church, but maybe less so now than in other times?
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roscuro: Well said.
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roscuro – I am absolutely NOT knocking romantic love. I think it is a wonderful thing. But I do think our secular culture has placed way way way too much emphasis on their brand of romantic love. And since we are in the world, I have seen in our churches where these notions have rubbed off. I am also not knocking sexual desire within the confines of marriage. It is and should be enjoyable. All I am trying to say is that it is not the be all and end all of love. But you were fortunate to have been raised in a family environment where valentines were given out among those in the family who are not romantically involved. Not everyone has been that fortunate. No begrudging here either. You are also among the fortunate who have had true biblical marriage modeled for you. Others did not grow up in such an environment. I never saw anything remotely like a biblical marriage in my growing up years. All I know about a Biblical marriage I learned AFTER I got married and I brought some very wrong ideas about what a biblical marrriage is into my own marriage. I think many Christians take that for granted.
I only said that romatic love should be in proper perspective. I am a Christian and I started out my marriage with it not in proper perspective, so I know from experience and observation that improper perspectives exist throughout Christendom. Christian marriage is supposed to be a witness and a reflection of Christ’s love for the Church to non believers, and an encouragement and affirmation to other believers. People married for years can be good examples for younger marriages to follow.
I was also trying to point out that we have the all-purpose word love for words that are more specific in the Greek language, and something gets lost in the translation between Greek and English.
Peter L – Yes, Jesus should be at the center and is, but my experience is the church ministries, while Christ centered, tend to be more comfortable to families than to singletons. (That includes marrieds who attend without their spouse for whatever reason. – yes there are unequally yoked marriages in church.)
I have personally sent and received Valentines Day cards to and from friends, mychildren, my husband and other relatives. I don’t get all wrapped around the axle about the holiday, nor do I get upset if someone doesn’t send me a Valentine, it is not expected.
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I still tend to think of Pierre when Valentine’s Day comes along.
No, not a former boyfriend — he was a little French kid who transferred into our elementary school and became unpopular mainly because he was different. 😦
The custom on Valentine’s Day back then was for kids to all give each other cards, but it was sort of left up to the moms to orchestrate that. Many kids only gave out a few. My mom was always insistent that ALL the kids in my class get a card from me, no one should ever be left out.
I still remember how Pierre’s face lit up (I remember he had very big ears!) when I dropped my card in the envelope hanging on the back of his classroom chair.
He really liked me after that and I spent a few recess periods playing foursquare with him and Reggie, another rather unpopular boy who was from Texas and talked funny. 🙂
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Our friend from WMB days, Kyle Ambrose, shared this article on Facebook…
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The other day it was asked who our favorite president was. I never answered but I always thought Silent Cal was pretty good. I don’t know much about him, or any other president but he seemed good.
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Top ten reasons youth leave church:
1. They discover there is no reason whatsoever to believe in God.
2. They discover there is absolutely no empirical evidence for the existence of God.
3. They realize that “life is a ***ch/***ard” and brave people just suck it up and deal with it instead of believing in silly fairy tales.
4. They realize that 95% of humans at least are not “sociopaths.” We all make mistakes and do bad things, but we are not “sinners” and to be “born again” in Christ makes about as much sense as taking a bath in the snow in 40 degree below temperature.
5. They realize that we live and die for no reason. That’s just the way it is.
6. They realize that this is the only life we have (no matter how unfair that is) and instead of believing in fantasy and fairy tale we should face reality and make the best of this bad lot as we can.
7. They realize that ALL religious belief is nonsense, so there’s no point in claiming all the other religions are nonsense and Christianity is the only one that’s correct.
8. It’s boring.
9. You’re still reading this? I bet you stick it all the way through your minister’s boring surgeon.
10. I am lying to you.
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I am sure the minister’s surgeon is boring, but his or her sermon is even more boring.
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KLasko, I think Paul’s statement could well apply to Valentine’s Day (or Christmas, or Mother’s Day, etc.): “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind” (Romans 14:5). It was talking about Jewish holy days, not American holidays, but I really think the same principle applies: It doesn’t matter whether you choose to celebrate them.
For me, several years ago I decided to start making Valentine’s cards for little girls in my church (“little girls” ended up being defined as “anyone under 18” and then “anyone who was under 18 the first year I sent the cards”) and I realized I really had to include my nieces, and a few of my adult friends, etc. This year I made 32 cards and sent more than that (including a few extras from previous years). It took more time than I planned. Most girls probably won’t even care that much. But I remember how special, and rare, it was to get mail as a child, and one girl in my Chicago church told me once, “You’re the only one who ever gives me a Christmas card.” I’d been doing it for several years, didn’t even know it mattered to her till then. So my concept now is that it matters to some of these girls. (I know at least some of them save them.) I’ve already received a thank-you e-mail from a mom, and I’ll probably get some thank yous at church Sunday.
I also took time to make my husband a nicer card than the ones I made for the girls, more detail and more time put into it. It’s a simple way to say “I love you.” So, why not?
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It’s funny that I defended Valentine’s Day on Facebook, but Lee & I didn’t exchange cards or gifts. And he forgot to get the cheap(er) candy today! 🙂
I did wear red, & earrings in the shape of hearts, though.
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I have tiny dangly earrings that are “hearts,” too, and I completely forgot to wear them. One of my co-workers, though, came to work wearing a pink long sleeved T and a bright red winter scarf tied around her neck. 🙂
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As to this: “Agape is the form of love that keeps giving of itself at times when ‘I don’t particularly LIKE you right now.’ You may not have experienced this in your marriage.I am committed to our marriage covenant, but I am so honked off with you right now. Most couples without God at the center call it quits at this point. It’s what keeps us keeping on in the hard times of the marriage.”
First of all, no, I haven’t yet had times of “I don’t particularly like you right now” with my husband; both of us have the sort of personalities not to get on another person’s nerves with being in regular contact, so we’re not likely to have a lot of fights. But I have already had times when the only reason I’ve made supper, washed dishes, whatever, is because I “have to.” I don’t want to, but it’s still the right thing to do. But no, I don’t think “most couples without God at the center call it quits” because most couples do experience this, and most couples do not call it quits.
“Your pastor is mistaken. Agape is about so much more than the homeless guy who needs a sandwich at the homeless shelter. Agape is motivated by our love for God. Agape is a word NOT used in secular Greek circles. It is only found in the NT.”
KLasko, I grew up in the church. I got my degree from a Bible college. I’ve been in church nearly every Sunday for 45 years, and heard and/or read Scripture nearly every day for 45 years. I edit Christian books for a living. So, believe me, I’ve heard many sermons, lessons, etc. on agape love. Yes, agape is more than giving the guy a sandwich . . . but it still isn’t necessarily a deeply personal love. When we say (as Christians do) that we are supposed to have agape love for everyone we meet, we are by definition saying that agape love is “broader” than love for our families, and not as intimate. We are not ever asked to have phileo love for everyone we meet. We certainly are not asked to make convenantal lifelong vows with everyone we meet.
I’m not “arguing for” my former pastor’s use of these words; I don’t know if he is correct. But I think it’s an interesting thought, and logically it has merit. If agape love is indeed a love that Christians are supposed to have “for everyone,” then he has to be right on some level, because other loves are more intimate.
And our culture that has corrupted romantic love has most definitely corrupted sexual love. I spent 44 years loving people in other ways; only within the last two years have I come to know the one person who is covenantally and physically one flesh with me. We’ve been married less than 16 months, so I’m still “new” at being fully loved. No other love comes close to the love that expresses itself in romantic ways, compassionate ways, and sexual ways.
Look, I wasn’t the romantic princess who dreamed of a fairytale wedding from the time I was a little girl. I watched other girls date and get married, and I saw the heartache of “breaking up,” and I saw how shallow a relationship was if it was only sappy, and I saw how sad it was if it turned to a physically based lustful one that drowned out any realistic assessment of the potential partner’s suitability. I didn’t grow up with a TV; I saw my first movie at 18. So what I saw was marriages (in real life) that were lifetime commitments, and that lasted a lifetime. (My first up-close-and-personal exposure to divorce was a friend, and it wasn’t till I was in my late thirties or early forties.) In other words, I’m coming from the opposite side from you. In my forties, I can finally have the safety of romantic love with someone who is committed to me for a lifetime, and I to him. I think romantic love within marriage is a very good thing, and not shallow at all, as long as the commitment is beyond the romance. If the commitment is to “for better or for worse,” then let’s have the romantic “better” along with the worse.
(Phos, may a good man find you someday. As I told another young friend recently, I think you’re a catch. Don’t look for perfection, but don’t settle for less than a quality man.)
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And I don’t mean to sound contrary. I think it’s perfectly fine if couples don’t celebrate Valentine’s Day. In my sister’s household, they’ve chosen to ignore the “Hallmark holidays”: Valentine’s, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day. They also don’t like Halloween. Birthdays get limited attention. They even debated dropping any celebration of Christmas (her husband had run into some Christians who argued it’s a pagan holiday; he gave them a hearing and let them make their case, but ultimately he saw their case was weak). I’m fine with their choices. And if my husband had told me he’d rather not do anything for Valentine’s Day, I could live with that. But it’s kind of a fun cultural tradition, and certainly a sweeter one than many of the ones our culture has come up with.
But I finished my deadline, and I need to do just a couple more things and get to bed, since we have to be somewhere tomorrow morning earlier than usual. . . .
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Dang.
Valentine’s Day sure does get complicated for you married folk. 😉
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C’mon Random, why are picking on poor surgeons? 😉
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Leaving tomorrow for Boise for FIL’s funeral. First we are going to June Lake to pick up daughter #3 and the two grandboys, then on to Idaho.
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Yeah, boring surgeons, horrible they are.
Prayers with you Adios, on your trip.
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Cheryl, I had not given up the discourse, but I just had to call it a night last night and have just now had a chance to get back to it.
I don’t see anything wrong with celebrating it or not, but I see far too many people guilt ridden because the do or don’t and especially before marriage, there is a tendency to expect some sort of recognition of the day. I have seen wives pout because they did not get the attention they expected. On Valentine’s day morning, I saw no less than 5 men frantically doing some last minute shopping (reminded me of Christmas Eve), and I heard one of them confess that if he didn’t get something for his wife there would be no shutting her up. At least one other man sighed and comiserated. I did not see these people at church. They were in the grocery store. That was one reason for the rant. It should not be that way.
I think you ard I are really in violent agreement, but I was making a few observations.
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KLasko,
I agree. A chance to love one’s spouse shouldn’t become an “obligation” to do a certain thing. I haven’t personally seen the guilt; I’ve seen some people choose to observe it and others not.
I do remember my college days, though, when the board for notes was completely covered with cards and the desk at the entrance to the women’s dorm would be covered with bouquet after bouquet, when in the dorm itself women were dressing up to go out, and that night and the next day you’d see multiple diamond rings. For a girl who wasn’t dating, it could feel pretty lonely. Sometimes I’d get a card or write a note to one of my other non-dating friends. On the other hand, a lot of those who were dating seemed in love with the romance of it all, and willing to date even lesser quality men if only they had a date. So while I thought it would be nice to have some special attention, realistically I also knew that I wouldn’t trade places with at least half of them, and that encouraged me to be content.
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