67 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 12-1-12”

  3. There are four teenage boys outside my window making lots of noise. I think they are toilet papering a house. I just wish they’d be quiet. Usually, our neighborhood is extremely quiet after 9:00pm. And, of course, I have to get up early as my youngest has a dance performance tomorrow morning…

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  7. Good morning.

    Chas, the only girl next door is three years old. It turns out, they weren’t tp’ing a house, they were driving a go-cart on the empty streets. They were carousing for almost an hour. And they were really loud! I finally gave up trying to sleep and read the Washington Times. Fortunately, I feel good this morning. I often get migraines when I’m sleep deprived and Triptan’s don’t always work for me. Thanking God today that I feel so good!

    Becca, my seven year old, has a dance performance today at the downtown Aquarium. First, we will have brunch with Santa. She is so excited as she still believes. It’s such fun to have a little one at Christmas!

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  9. Do any of you watch Duck Dynasty? I have gotten sucked into watching this show. Usually I am against anything I think takes Southerner’s and makes them act stereotypically stupid and at first I refused to watch this show. Finally I gave it a chance (new hubs and all). I love it! After you watch it a while you realize they aren’t idiot bubbas, the father was a starting quarterback and Terry Bradshaw was his backup. Problem was starting quarterback liked to hunt and fish more than he liked to practice football.
    Every episode ends with all gathered at the parents house for family dinner. The father prays thanking God for all that has happened and ends “in Jesus’ name we pray, Amen”. I understand that the producers at one point tried to get him to leave out Jesus and he refused.

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  12. I think it is on A & E. I am sure you could get episodes online somewhere. Hulu etc.

    One episode the grandson wanted to take his girlfriend fishing. The grandfather remembered his youth and decided to take them both fishing. On the fishing trip he talked to them about controlling themselves and not getting into trouble.

    All in all it is a good clean show.

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  13. Yes, I will be forwarding that song to some on my list who will appreciate it. Thanks, drivesguy!

    Duck Dynasty sounds like something I would enjoy. I have truly gotten tired of House which my husband likes. We don’t have cable so there is not too much choice.

    I am suppose to receive a Paperwhite Kindle which I won from an author’s blog. Can anyone advise me about what kind of cover I need to get for it?

    Question of the Day? Do you decorate your mailbox for the Christmas season, and if so, how? I usually attach a red bow, but would like to get some other ideas.

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  14. JaniceG Does any place near you have that large mesh ribbon? It is sort of metallic looking but very flexible (almost like loose burlap with starch in it). It is fairly easy to work with and makes a statement. Then you could add some large plastic ornaments. You could even wrap the post with the mesh ribbon. (The ribbon is about a 12-18 inches wide)

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  19. Thanks, Kim. I went to the A&E website, clicked on the Duck Dynasty link and got a malware warning from Goggle Chrome. So I went to the videos and found that I can watch recent episodes there. Too bad my home computer is too slow (it takes several hours to load a tv show; we tried once). I’ll try on my lunch break at school.

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  21. That paper white Kindle looks great in the commercials. On my old Kindle I just have their basic cover, it folds back and over easily, with an elastic cord that keeps it shut.

    Except the cat is obsessed with the elastic cord. So I always have to hide the Kindle from her when I put it away.

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  23. OK. I shopped local. I got a baby burp cloth with Silas’ initials on it, his silver cup with his initials and date of birth.

    I at least got a pretty burlap pillow for my bed. Now if I can just get Aunt Leesee off her lazy behind and con her into making my bedskirt 🙂

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  25. Janices’s QoD: Decorate your mailbox? Why do a thing like that? The spray from the snowplow will only knock the decoration off, or cover it in salt and sand. Oh, wait – she’s from the South… 😉
    No mailbox to decorate here – the nearest post office is in the capital.

    It will be a strange Christmas – no snow, no tree, and no family (that is the part I’ll miss most – it is the first Christmas I have spent away from home). However, the story of Christmas is just as true and wonderful here and I brought my collection of carols with me, so I can still enjoy my favorite part of December – listening to the real music of Christmas (a local radio station in Canada used to advertise the carols they played as the Real Music of Christmas).

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  31. Phos, will you at least be able to Skype with your family? We did that when our daughter was in Rwanda at Christmas time. It was still a weird Christmas without her, but at least we all got to see and talk to her and she to us.

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  32. I just read Heaven, edited by Roger Ferlo. Rather, I read most of it. I skipped lots of it. It is a series of essays by people, whom I don’t know. They discuss heaven, and death. I don’t particularly recommend it, though some might find it interesting. The problem is that there is no way of describing a physical place defined as Heaven. The closest is in Revelation 21 where John describes the New Jerusalem.
    Someone, I forgot who, said that most people see Heaven as a perfect earth where Christ reigns and he/she is in the midst of it.
    I’ve never tried to imagine it.
    I do believe, as did most of the essayists, that we will recognize people we have known.

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  33. When we went to get our passports to travel into Canada (which once upon a time I did not need), my birth certificate said Stephen —-. I once put my last name on wmb, and Victoria became agitated, for reasons unclear to me.

    If you really want to know my last name, email me and provide a persuasive reason and I might tell you. eman_modnar@yahoo.com. (I get most interesting spam, some Christian, some in Arabic, some in Chinese to that accout.) Anyway it’s a “real name” on my birth certificate.

    I doubt there is any birth certificate in the world with the name “Solar Pancake.” I don’t know if Solar Pancake is a man or a woman. I don’t know if Solar Pancake has a husband or a wife. I don’t know if Solar Pancake lives in the United States, though probably he/she exists somewhere on the planet earth. I don’t know if Solar Pancake has a job. I don’t know if Solar Pancake has any purpose in life besides telling me I am incorrect. I will be watching curiously. Gotta go work on protecting the chickens from hawks.

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  37. I was talking to someone about recognizing people in heaven a few weeks ago at church. The issue came up with the question from someone of “What about those loved ones who aren’t there? Will we be aware of that?” If not, how will that work? Our memories of them erased? Or we will just see things from God’s perspective so perfectly that it will all make sense and be understood without causing us mourning?

    The person I was talking to said the other way to look at that is that the verse means we will recognize & know each other (all) as believers, not necessarily referring to recognizing people we may have known on earth.

    I haven’t had a chance to go back and take a look at some footnotes or commentaries on that, but I thought it was an interesting alternative perspective (one I think I’d heard before but had forgotten about).

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  39. Steve, I know your last name!

    We’re not married. That can’t be right. I guess I’ll just have to take a chance and trust you. Anyway, it’s a fairly common Jewish name, so if the Nazis come for me, they will be pretty busy rounding us all up. And my daughter legally changed her name to her partner’s name. So nobody will know. Anyway, as my wife isn’t Jewish, my daughter isn’t Jewish, either. [Something that ranks perhaps 71,020,412 in the all-time atheist list of religious nonsense, a list that actually ranks in the trillions.

    If you’ve never read the great Arthur C. Clarke science-fiction/fantasy story, the “9 Trillion Names of God,” it’s available for free on the Internet. It’s also quite brief. Look it up and read it.

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  41. I guess so. The one that didn’t appear just appeared, my question about being “monitored” has not appeared yet. Either that, or God Himself is (forgot the word) monitoring my comments. Little late, Big Guy.

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  43. Random.

    Good grief,

    Paranoid much are ya’? I’m the only one who can do that. and I’m on vacation. I know you probably think I’d waste time on my vacation to monitor you. but I assure you I would not. You weren’t in the spam folder either. There was an anonymous post that said “test”. Was that it?

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  45. Well, as someone who is often warned (by somebody named Pascal or something like that) that I am likely bound for Hell, should I not be paranoid?

    As far as 10,000 comments, only 999 billion, 999 million, 999 thousand . . . no my tired old brain can’t figure it out, but only a few billion to go. If you’ve read the Clarke story.

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  46. Donna,
    The question of identity and salvation first bothered me in high school. Beyond biology and neurology, our identity is formed by collective and individual memory. However, memory is located within the brain and is easily lost, manipulated, changed etc and hence identity can change over time. Christianity promises individual salvation but if identity changes over time and especially in a traumatic event such as death then who is the individual that is saved. And if salvation is not individual how then does Christianity differ from Buddhism which essentially promises salvation through oneness with the great spirit.

    The great appeal of Christianity rests on its promise to maintain the individual through death. Any suggestion that this be compromised in anyway would lowers its appeal and uniqueness. A complete discontinuity between the present and a future in heaven does not maintain the individual through death. If I’m unable to recall memories of events, relationships, family, etc., I’m not the same person essentially I’m a completely new person — not just the metaphorical new person in Christ. If the old dies at death not to be reborn, then Christian salvation does not exist.

    Bizarre thoughts at high school eh? Nothing I learned or heard since ever changed the basic thought process I had then.

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  47. Hwesseli, as usual, you are right on. I’ve always thought that reincarnation should have little appeal as you don’t know who you were. There’s a book on empirical studies of life after death (hint — there’s no evidence — ZERO of such) which touches briefly on Hindus in India. A lot of Hindus search for past lives. Ha. Ha.

    When I was in high school, I thought: What are the arguments for religious belief?

    1. It’s empirically true. Claim: there is a God. He created the universe. Evidence: none.

    2. It’s good for the individual. I, you, anybody will survive death. Zero evidence. Even if there is a Heaven, it makes up for the immense suffering billions of people suffer while living. [Not slightly believable or convincing.] [As I got older, I also added: Existence for INFINITY would be Hell.

    3. It’s good humanity in general [in this world, people behave better because they believe in God.] At best, it’s a draw. All substantial religious beliefs and all political (secular or quasi-political/religious beliefs provide copious examples of commendable behavior and copious examples of distressing behavior.

    I concluded none of these “tests” for evaluating religion hold up in the slightest bit. I thought that at about the age of 15 or 16. Years of thinking and reading, including wmb and wv have not changed this evaluation in any significant way.

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  48. I continue to think (developed over time):

    Religion exists because we don’t want to die.

    Religion exists because life is not fair. Humans crave some sort of “balancing of the books.” Hence, karma or Heaven and Hell.

    Religion exists because we are a social species. Paul and Mohammed developed the “viral” religion meme. The human genome has bred us (by accident) for transmission of this meme. It’s not simple or overwhelming. Genes are not the overwhelming reason for widespread religious belief, but they probably play a strong factor (with many other factors) for its persistence in human society despite the absolute lack of empirical evidence for religious claims. Mormonism and Scientology are the two most recent major religions. Their artificial creation are fairly easily documented and debunked (unlike Christianity and other ancient religions to distant to examine with empirical care), yet they have millions of followers. This defies logic and common sense.

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  49. However, memory is located within the brain and is easily lost, manipulated, changed etc and hence identity can change over time. Christianity promises individual salvation but if identity changes over time and especially in a traumatic event such as death then who is the individual that is saved.

    This whole line of thought presupposes that the mind is merely a product of the brain. But that’s a question begging assumption rooted in a naturalistic worldview.

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  50. Ree

    It is. But baring any evidence to the contrary its the correct presupposition. Unless one is required to add a second hypothesis to explain the brain, one should stick to the simple, elegant and provable assumption that the brain and the mind are the same. There’s no need to posit the mind separate from the brain — its unnecessary.

    A book I’m reading now cites William James in the following analogy. When white light passes through a prism, the prism breaks it up into all colours of the spectrum. The prism is not the source of the light but allows us to see it differently. Similarly, James and the author claim, the brain may permit, transmit or express mental events which have their source in the mind. Now this analogy supports your position , but here’s the problem — there’s no evidence for this ultimate source ie a separate mind/consciousness/soul. In the analogy, I see the white light enter the prism and leave the prism. I don’t see mental input entering the brain prior to it leaving the brain. Even with today’s technology where we can “see” brain activity we can’t see the mind entering the brain. All we can see is the brain reacting to sense data, neurological activity within the brain and then the brain sending signals to the body. The “mind” as a separate entity is not there. Thus our identity markers, our memory is also located wholly within the brain.

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  51. Random,
    I never understood the appeal of reincarnation either … but I suspect that together with karma it acts(ed) as a deterrent against bad behaviour and a means for people to escape their present fate.

    Continuing with the high school theme. The absolute arbitrariness of belief occurred to me in middle school already. Our adherence to a religious belief largely depends on our location, ethnicity, and family. Thus, we arrive at a conclusion that our salvation arises out of our circumstance of birth. Now one thing an adolescent demands is fairness and this simply doesn’t appear fair. Now my definition of fairness has changed and I’ve studied enough theology to know the counter arguments against 13 year intuition but the basic premise of location, ethnicity and family still has a ring of truth.

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  52. If I’m unable to recall memories of events, relationships, family, etc., I’m not the same person essentially I’m a completely new person — not just the metaphorical new person in Christ. If the old dies at death not to be reborn, then Christian salvation does not exist.

    *******I agree. *******

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  54. HRW,

    Since mind, by definition, isn’t matter, your quest for material evidence of its existence is misguided. But not all legitimate evidence is material evidence.

    James’s analogy is a good one but it must necessarily use the seen to portray the unseen. That’s its very purpose. To presuppositionally dismiss the existence of the immaterial is a philosophical position, not an evidential one. And it’s an unsustainable philosophical position, at that.

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  55. The scientific method and the law both demand material evidence. To dismiss this as a mere philosophical position is to forget an essential point — it works. The materialist worldview gave us technology and the modern legal system.

    That’s not too say there is nothing beyond the physical world. We can in fact detect or predict the existence of virtual and/or miniscule particles by the “trail” it leaves or its effect on the material. Hence, much of quantum physics and even basic particle theory is accepted despite the lack of direct evidence. But that’s not the case with an immaterial mind. The evidence even in an indirect manner is simply not there.

    Currently, I’m reading “Brain Wars” which postulates that mind exists. He has yet to convince me that any of his evidence is not simply the actions of our brain as opposed to a conscious mind.

    I’m left then with your claim its just an immaterialist position vs a materialist position. The rebuttal is simple one works — it accurately predicts, creates tools, etc — the other is mere conjecture, anecdote, etc

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  57. hwesseli: The very notion of “it works” is a philosophical one. “Does stuff” is a more accurate characterization, and even that is rife with metaphysical underpinnings. There’s no way to escape the fatalism of a materialist view, and the ramification of that view that one holds such a position merely because of material processes. How would any response to such a claim not, itself, be materially determined?

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  59. I admit I haven’t given reincarnation a great deal of thought, but it seems to me that if people were reincarnatedthey’d be improving instead of continuing in the same destructive patterns as always.

    I mean, why would there be wars? Surely we’d have “evolved” into the superior beings we want to be if we were reliving again and again. What would be the point otherwise?

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  60. Michelle,

    Eastern worldviews that hold to reincarnation don’t seem to think of it as producing a necessary evolution or even as having a “point” in the sense that I think you mean it. It’s not even necessary that people are reincarnated as people. They may just as well come back in another life as a kangaroo or a rat or a grasshopper, depending on their karma. And although there are obviously differences between the different religions, the culmination in all of them, as near as I can tell is, in one sense or another–the extinction of the self.

    These religions are radically monistic–in their view, all is ultimately one. In reality’s truest essence there are no distinctions, our perceptions to the contrary notwithstanding. In these worldviews, our experience of reality doesn’t reveal anything about the true nature of reality. Rather, our experience obscures reality’s true nature.

    Then there’s the radical nominalism of the materialistic view in which there’s no real cohesion or organizing principle to reality. Everything is infinitely malleable. There’s no ontological essence to anything. Here, the true nature of reality is neither revealed, nor obscured by our experience. There’s simply no basis by which to presume any correlation between the workings of the mind and the true nature of reality.

    These two views illustrate the fundamental philosophical problem of “the one and the many.” Only the reality of the triune God of Christianity resolves this philosophical conundrum. The Trinity is the source and the ultimate expression of the reality we perceive but can’t explain– the reality of unity in diversity. Our God is eternally both one and many and He exists eternally in a relationship of love. And in this view, our experience of reality is revelational. God has created us to learn about the true nature of reality through our experience.

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  61. Wow, Ree! You are much more interesting and amusing than Mr. Cake, who pretty much repeats the same stuff over and over. (Doesn’t he bore himself?)

    As far as the triune God, a much simpler explanation is that Christianity developed from polytheistic religions (Hinduism being the primary surviving one today) and the polytheism was incompletely passed through the metaphysical digestive system. Christians being so clever, they in essence said (as people also said about Microsoft programs), “That’s not a bug! That’s a feature!) The last wisecrack approved by the Holy Ghostess. (No relation to Hostess Cupcakes, which may be born again.)

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  62. I’m happy to explain how internet forums work, Random, so have a listen:

    When people post something, it’s not uncommon for others to reply to said posts. When people post the same thing over and over, it’s not uncommon–in fact, it seems fairly logical to me–that replies to those posts sound similar in nature, as well.

    So that’s what’s going on here. You’re posting the same thing over and over, and my replies (and others’, when they provide them) are largely similar in nature. At least give me (an others) credit for hangin’ in there!

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  63. I don’t know, Stephen. “Mr. Cake” sounds pretty insightful to me, and I appreciate him building on my points as he did in his response to HRW and in many of his responses to you.

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  65. Well, I used to be not very polite, but after being married to a very polite woman for 47 years, a little bit rubbed off on me. So thank you for explaining how Internet forums work to me. I participated on Internet forums before Tim Berners-Lee invented WWW at CERN. My grandmother is long dead, or I might go try to teach her to suck eggs. (As my grandmother lived on a farm with cows, goats, and chickens, she probably was quite adept at at removing the contents without breaking the shell.)

    However, there is no doubt that you know how Internet forums work. As another old saying says, “X is a legend in his own mind.”

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  66. Boy, Random, you sure don’t want me asking you questions, do ya? If you ignore me, I might stop replying to you. Where have I heard that before, like umpteen times?

    But I probably would still post replies to your profound offerings here, just for the (ahem) challenge of it.

    So ignore me or not, your call.

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  67. Peter L Solar: Don’t feed the trolls. Modesty Press (aka Randmon Name) has been around a long time and seems to have little to do but bother with us. .

    Peter: Random- Why don’t you go bother some Muslim blog for a while? [For one thing, I don’t speak Arabic.]

    Solar Pancake: Boy, Random, you sure don’t want me asking you questions, do ya? If you ignore me, I might stop replying to you. Where have I heard that before, like umpteen times?
    But I probably would still post replies to your profound offerings here, just for the (ahem) challenge of it.
    So ignore me or not, your call.

    Peter: Meet Solar Pancake. Solar: Meet Peter L.

    Peter and Solar. Hello. I am a troll.

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