AJ – Last night, you replied to DJ in a rude and graceless way (and included me in it). In a follow-up comment, you claimed that DJ’s comment, which was sharing an opinion, and not rudely worded, was not showing grace to Trump.
I don’t see much grace from you for Harris or Biden or Walz or anyone on the left, and what DJ said was not even close to how harsh your words have been about them. In fact, I don’t think her words were harsh, just honest.
Re: DJ’s comment @ 4:21pm yesterday) Even some Trump supporters have been dismayed at how Trump has been reacting to Harris, rehashing his grievances and engaging in his usual insults at a time when he should be more focused on political stances and policies. And they are concerned that he will not do well in the upcoming debate against her.
(And in going back to that thread to find the time of that comment, I see that DJ has commented again.)
What I have seen is that no matter how either DJ or I have tried to explain why we are not supporting Trump, you disagree with those reasons and so dismiss them as “Orange man bad” and us as “Never-Trumpers”.
Thanks Kizzie — and my disputed comment from yesterday indeed was picking up on the very frustration Trump’s own aides have expressed with the candidate right now, that’s he’s not focused, he isn’t going after Harris with a degree of seriousness on the specific issues, but instead is going down his usual rabbit trails with ad libs too often.
My comment yesterday was only that I wish we did have a serious conservative candidate who could start (it’s already late) taking her to task on some serious issues. She has many weaknesses and needs to be taken to task for those — but Trump seems, well, distracted and undisciplined, as usual. Some of his aides privately, according to reports, have expressed some frustration with this.
Trump tends to lose and lack focus, it’s been a characteristic all along (he’s really more of an entertainer than a serious statesman and he seems to depend on that way too much). The name-calling, the jabs meant to be funny are growing old and none of that is working so well anymore.
I wish we had more perfect candidates for the more perfect citizens to vote for. As for some of us, if need be, we hold our nose and vote for who we think will support our values. I held my nose and voted for Romney.
I continue to think the election is more about issues than character. I wish for less bashing of either character running for the top spot or the supporting role. I give grace to those who think character is more important than issues. We all have blind spots.
Why not agree to disagree on the character qualities and move out of a sticking point of aggravation?
Another ad lie is playing on the TV right now. Blah, blah, blah . . . Georgia is too blessed with so many political ads..
“People need to stop overreacting about Kamala’s plan to reduce food inflation, as if it would lead to communism, mass starvation, and the end of America.
I worked in M&A in the food industry. Here’s a step-by-step summary of what would actually happen:
1. The government announces that grocery retailers aren’t allowed to raise prices.
2. Grocery stores, which operate on 1-2% net margins, can’t survive if their suppliers raise prices. So the government announces that food producers (Kraft Heinz, ConAgra, Tyson, Hormel, et. al.) also aren’t allowed to raise prices.
3. Not all grocery stores are created equal. Stores in lower-income areas make less money than those in higher-income areas, as the former disproportionately sell lower-margin prepackaged foods (“center of the store”) instead of higher-margin fresh products like meat (“perimeter of the store”). Because stores in lower-income areas aren’t able to cover overhead (remember, even if their wholesale costs are fixed, their labor, utilities, insurance, and other operating expenses aren’t fixed… yet), grocery chains start to shut them down. Food deserts in rural areas and in low-income urban areas alike become worse.
4. Meanwhile, margins for food producers are also quickly eroding. Their primary costs (ingredients, energy, and labor) aren’t fixed, and their shrinking gross profits leave less cash flow available to cover overhead, maintain facilities, and reinvest in additional production capacity.
5. Grocery chains, which have finite shelf space, start to repurpose their stores (those they didn’t have to shut down, I should say) to sell more non-price-controlled items—everything from nutrition supplements to kitchenware to apparel—and less price-controlled food products. Your local Kroger or Safeway starts to look and feel more like a Walmart.”
Hey Janice, I have a question about these two sentences back to back: “I give grace to those who think character is more important than issues. We all have blind spots.”
Did you mean (1) We all have our blind spots, our areas of bad character, or (2) We all have our blind spots, and for some people their blind spot is mistakenly thinking that moral character is more important than political issues?
“Power hungry Kamala Harris describing how she can ruin lives with the ‘swipe of a pen’:”I learned that with the swipe of my pen, I could charge someone with the lowest level offense. And because of the swipe of my pen, that person could be arrested, they could sit in jail for at least 48 hours, they could lose time from work and their family, maybe lose their job. They’d have to come out of their own pocket to help hire a lawyer. They’d lose standing in their community.All because of the swipe of my pen.
Weeks later I could dismiss the charges, but their life would be forever be changed.
“Kamala Harris became Hiding Harris because she learned from her last presidential campaign that her ideas are lampoonable:”For every 1% differential between what they are paying men and women for equal work, there will be a fine of 1% of their previous year’s profits.”
Kamala Harris’ 2020 presidential campaign and her Senate office were both found to pay male staffers more than female staffers. “
“109 people showed up to Kamala’s rally in North Carolina today including press and staff. This is the level of excitement when there are no free concerts, cash payments, or strippers twerking.”
“David Friedberg SHREDS the Kamala Harris Grocery ‘Price Gouging’ Plan
“Every socialist experiment in human history has started with caps on food and it has resulted in bread lines like you can see in the image behind me…This is a mistake. It is anti-American.””
I do believe Trump can and will address the issues. He is turning from attack mode to addressing policy. He can bring out the facts without stooping to disparagement. I am praying he continue to do so.
I am not up for an argument. I give grace to those who think differently than I do expecting the same from the other person because I have been given grace by the Ultimate Grace Giver and He knows who is right or if it matters or if neither is right. Grace is good. I am not here to argue. Edit as you wish. I am not a perfect wordsmith.
I am gun shy. Too much past history. Forgiven but not forgotten. Don’t want to step in land mines again. I love going forward in God’s love, peace, and grace.
Yes, Janice, I was trying to understand. Because I would tend to agree that character is more important than issues–partly because your stand on the issues is affected by your character, but also because how you treat people is inevitably affected by your character. A leader without good character can be bought or sold, or can condemn innocent people. Competence may matter as much as character, but nothing really matters <i>more.</i>
BTW, in reading through the discussions last night, I think both sides of you are talking past each other because of frustration from previous conversations. Both of you are stating your opinions, and I think both are even biting your tongues a little.
It reminded me of a few years ago when my sister brought up something I had presumably said several years prior (but didn’t remember saying). She decided that my fiance, now my husband, doesn’t like children (she hadn’t even met him yet and the assessment isn’t true, but that’s the context), and she reminded me that she had once told me that her husband didn’t like either dogs or cats, and I had said that I couldn’t marry someone who didn’t like either dogs or cats. I’m simply too much of an animal person for that to be a good connection. (I don’t like cats, and I’m allergic to them, but at least I have sympathy with the common level of humanity that has a person liking cats rather than dogs. Disliking both is something I can’t really comprehend.) She was making the point that it was hypocritical to not be OK with someone not liking dogs or cats but being willing to marry someone who didn’t like children–and she’d have had a point, had it been true. (My husband had just spent several years as a single, stay-at-home dad after his wife died of cancer, so the “not liking children” wasn’t actually true.) What I realized is that she took personally what hadn’t been meant to be personal. I don’t care if she wants to marry someone who doesn’t like either dogs or cats; it wouldn’t be a good match <i>for me.</i>
Ideally, in relationships where people trust each other and try to think the best of each other, someone can state an opinion as to their own preferences, the most important elements of why they vote, etc., and have the opinion taken at face value.
None of us on this blog is saying that the most important characteristic of a candidate is that the person supports the “right” to abortion. We all have more or less the same priorities on the issues. We differ on our opinions as to how deeply flawed some candidates are (and I’m about in the middle of the two “sides” on that), and how much their character matters. There should be room to disagree, and have polite discussions on the matter, especially with the levels of agreement we actually do hold.
~ As much as Trump can be unpredictable and mercurial, his campaign managers … are seasoned political operatives who’ve been trying to give Trump good advice. (Trump’s Getting Good Advice. He Just Refuses to Take It.)
Advisers and pundits want the former president to stick to the issues.
But with Trump losing ground in the polls, guess who’s back? Corey Lewandowski, who ran much of Trump’s 2016 campaign, is joining the team as an adviser, and he’ll be bringing his 2016 playbook with him: “Let Trump Be Trump.” … ~
I’ve been baffled by how much we do agree on — and how it has still degenerated to a rather shocking level of rudeness so often.
Go figure … ?
We can probably blame this on “X” and other online craziness that has overtaken our culture and even the behavior of Christians.
But posting thread guidelines and tips for keeping discussions here civil and respectful also may have helped in the beginning; apparently none of us thought there would be a need. But human nature being what it is … 😦
I just caught up on the politics thread on a rare day off. (Normally, I would be at work right now as I’ve been bumped to a 3rd shift line that is running 6 days a week 10pm-6am. It’s taxing labor but it pays the bills, so I’m thankful I can still do it at 65.) Lighten up everyone! This isn’t Meet the Press. No one need carry the burden of offense because someone else is gruff. It’s nothing shocking, even among good Christians. Believe me. Let it go. You’ll sleep better, and so will everyone else. That’s all I have to say about that.
Cheryl said something about character that interests me because husband and I have been talking about it in relation to Trump. She said ‘…your stand on issues is affected by your character….’. To me the most interesting issues that Trump has promoted are a strong domestic agenda supporting working families and businesses, getting a handle on illegal immigration, a competent defense that insists on our allies paying their share, and an unwillingness to launch new wars or military operations behaving as the world’s “policeman”. To me, these are not just political issues; they also reflect his character. And they reflect our character. Particularly, the unwillingness to kill others without clear provocation is as at least as important to me as abortion—perhaps more so. And it’s definitely a character issue.
I do think Trump believes what he has said about these issues. But, and this is what we’ve been debating between us, does he have the character to follow through? His lack of focus is one thing. I’m told that he has also floated the idea of including in his cabinet or administration Jamie Dimon (who promoted the idea of ‘too big to fail’ in the Great Recession) and some equally repulsive (to me) Black Rock executive. Even knowing there will be compromises, husband wonders if Trump lacks the character to follow through with his own agenda, and is he too vain to be dependable. He has a point. But either way, it is very much a character issue.
These are some of the things we weigh when we are deciding how to vote…or whether to vote. They are worthy of discussion, even if the discussion is sometimes blunt or gruff or offensive.
I am going to wade into the discussion on grace about how we comment. I hope you will all extend me grace.
Everyone comes from different types of families. Some families have vigorous debates. They are not afraid to state their opinions freely. They do not feel the need to worry all the time that someone’s feelings are hurt whenever they state how they really feel, because they know the other person will just shove back or let it go and vice versa. I come from a family like that. Therefore, I don’t get upset when someone disagrees with me in what may seem to be disrespectful way.
For example, this was an opinion expressed yesterday: “I get how folks like my neighbors like him and what he says. They were lifelong, blue-collar Democrats — who don’t follow politics closely — and liked what they heard. I get that”.
Now I doubt that this was meant in a disrespectful way, but my take on it is that there is a presumption of superiority in the comment. Those who support the candidate is a bit more ignorant than those who don’t. They are not as up on things as the person who doesn’t. They are ‘blue collar’ and clearly not as educated.
I think what Aj was saying was that there is substance that is spoken in Trump’s speeches. It is interspersed among the ‘showmen’ stuff, but you seem not to hear it.
Lots of Trump’s comments do not sound like Minnesota nice to me, but then lots of Walz’ comments are not MN nice, nor Biden’s and Harris’ etc. Vance has, certainly, spoken policy in the speeches I have heard him make. Politics can be vicious and unpleasant to say the least.
We can all also misunderstand each other. If we always have to be walking on eggshells, it does become unpleasant and uncomfortable to have any discussion. That does not only come from one side on this blog, IMO, however. I just refrain from making an issue of it from some I see “on the other side.” I learn how others think, which is not a bad thing, IMO.
Kizzie,I value your and DJ’s contributions to the thread (as well as HRW’s) and it is evident that there is plenty of good will here. What you see as personal attacks or a ‘beat down’ I see as lively conversation. I doubt anyone here has received anything close to a beat down or personal attack. I know what it is like to have someone stand in my face and literally scream at me for nothing I actually did. Nothing. Not once or twice, but day after day after week after week. And yes, she was a Christian, not the finest example, but not the worst sort either by any means. No one has experienced anything close to a beat down or personal attack on this blog. Don’t take this the wrong way, but I have wondered if some people are so thin skinned they are really not fit for conversation at all outside their own milieu. Instead of trying to change others’ personality, why not try to change their opinion on the News thread. Instead of complaining about perceived or even real offenses, why not be an example of giving grace rather than complaining you or DJ don’t get any. Because from where I’m standing, you both get plenty. Not being mean, just candid because I love you. And because I have the opportunity.
Good comments/observations about giving grace here.
I finally saw a Harris yard sign in the yard of my neighbor who was daughter of the county school superintendent, my senior English teacher in high school, and finally on the board of our county schools. My other neighbor still has the Biden sign out. I see there is ranking as to who gets the signs first 🙂
He is very smart, and he has been taking Harris to task on the issues. Effectively debate her? It wouldn’t even be a fair contest. However, I’m still expecting the Dems to do something so that she doesn’t even need to show up. Even they know that she is a bad candidate, and they’re still trying to hide her from having to face questions and any kind of scrutiny.
Distracted and undisciplined? Pres. Trump is totally focused on working for the American people and righting this country. Aides have been expressing frustration? According to what reports? Are they like the ‘reports’ that said that Trump is angry that he chose J.D. Vance? Nothing could be further from the truth, and Vance is performing brilliantly.
Pres. Trump is the one who has a proven Conservative track record, and who talks about policies more than him?
Kizzie, I am not sure what you mean by your question about personal attacks. I don’t condone anyone making personal attacks. I don’t condone Trump doing it or anyone else running from office. It certainly is not done just by Trump. I think it really hurts him in the long run.
Nor do I think it should be done here. (Again, it just hurts someone from really being heard) I don’t think the term “Never Trumper” is an insult. If it applies to someone who believes that anyone in the world is better than Trump. I have no idea if I have been included in that term at some point myself.
I do think all our speech is to be considered in the light of scripture. We are to speak with grace, for example. However, there is much that Jesus said, and Paul said that could be questioned by some as being spoken in grace.
Kathaleena – In my comment yesterday in which I mentioned DJ and I being referred to as “Never-Trumpers,” I did not mean that as being an insult, but was referring to the dismissiveness of the term – dismissing any concern they may have because they are merely a “Never-Trumper” or whatnot.
It’s not the words so much from either side, but the tone. I have noticed an accusatory tone at times on one side and a condescending and badgering tone from the other side. Now I am ready to take hits from all around. Please give grace.
Did someone mention a book, maybe by the title, Unoffendable, or something like that? I think I need that book and maybe others here need it, too.
Believe it or not, I am not particularly thin-skinned. I have been in discussions on Facebook in which some folks can get heated or strong in the way they express themselves, and am able to deal with it.
But on a site that is supposed to be a place for Christian believers, the tone should mirror that. The Bible has so much to say about how believers should communicate with each other. Not to mention the fact that good debate does not include personal put-downs.
DJ and I are not the only ones who find AJ’s words offensive or hurtful at times, but we are the ones who have not yet given up on the news thread. I know of some who have, mostly because of the tone. One former WMBer who checked out the news thread one day decided the tone was not worth putting up with. And that man, who engages in other discussions on Facebook – even heated ones – is no shrinking violet, believe me.
So although it may seem that DJ and I are the “only ones” who sometimes have a problem here, it is only because we’re the only ones who have stuck around while daring to offer differing views.
Civility isn’t easy in the online world but – as Kizzie points out – it’s mainly what we’ve advocated for here. I’d like to think we’ve had some influence on that front.
I may fail from time to time, to be sure, but I’ve always tried to be dispassionate (rather than emotional – and certainly not angry) when posting on this thread. I simply think it’s good to have a variety of views here. But that is challenging as one “side” does predominate. All the more reason to be careful with our interactions and words, especially, I’d say, on the majority view’s side.
Tolerance of other views is among our main points, it’s not about “winning” a knock-down, drag out fight. Or it shouldn’t be so among believers, as Kizzie points out.
We’ve been wrongly accused of believing many things here in the heat of the battle and all of that simply fans the flames.
That said, I would hope we could keep up the emphasis I now see here (newly?) on showing grace and speaking appropriately to one another (and about others, even those who are public figures we may not like very much).
Seriously, if that’s what comes out of this particular ‘dust up,’ then that’s all good.
Kathaleena (@9:40) — there certainly was no looking down on my neighbors. I know many who support Trump and I do not in any way think less of them. So, if I can civilly say so, you read that wrong. 🙂 Or perhaps I worded it clumsily.
There’s also more of a populist “movement” that has grown up around Trump that I frankly find more troubling. This happens to some extent in many elections, but it is a view that a politician is RIGHT no matter what. Followers in these kinds of movements (and they’re seen on the left and right) lose perspective.
I’ll stop there, but thanks for the opportunity to clear that up as it was misunderstood apparently.
If we think we’re misunderstanding something — or we question something — it’s good and appropriate to ask about it. Let the poster more fully explain.
And back to Kathaleena’s thinking I’ve condescended and somehow am looking down on my neighbors — You don’t know me, I realize, but I come from a very blue collar background, I grew up in what has been called the inner city, I am about as blue-collar as they come. I love my neighbors, I do not and would never condescend to them. I understand Trump’s appeal.
That would be something that would have been good to ask me about — but I’m glad that belatedly I can, at least, respond.
It’s a weakness sometimes of the written word, especially when it’s a thread where we sometimes post on the fly.
We sometimes misunderstand and make presumptions but those can be cleared up quickly if we allow. I’m sorry I saw that post so belatedly but certainly did not want it left unanswered. I would have cleared it up way earlier had I seen it.
Janice, your 1:41 this afternoon: I’m not surprised that your neighbor with various connections to the public school system is voting Democrat. (Though not all public school teachers do, obviously.) I found when I was a school teacher that there was a huge push from the teachers’ unions and other entities in the education system to vote Dem. The union always strongly endorsed the D candidate, thus my naively voting for Dukakis the first election year after I started teaching school, even though I’d voted for Reagan in ’80 and ’84 as a college student. 🙂
I didn’t vote for Clinton in ’92, though! I wonder if one of my 5th graders would have been disappointed in me if she’d known I didn’t do so. When we were singing a song by a contemporary composer of school music, about the (then-) upcoming election, the aforementioned student decided to boldly declare to the class, “If I was old enough to vote, I’d vote for Bill Clinton because he supports a woman’s right to choose.”
I know she knew exactly what “the right to choose” was referring to, too.
Anyway… writing to everyone here, I don’t care what anyone thinks of my voting choices. Republican, Democrat, Independent, Constitution party — I’ve done them all, admittedly with varying degrees of awareness and intentionality about why I chose as I did — and this year will be a first as a “None,” if I go that route. (I’m considering that based on the article I linked from The Federalist a few weeks ago. I like Joy Pullmann, the author; she really gets me thinking.)
If anyone calls me an idiot or whatever else because of my voting history or its possible future, or accuses me of being complicit in ruining the country, well, bring on the internet tomatoes! Water off a duck’s back, and that’s that. 🙂
I have more to say about other recent comments on this thread, but will write a separate comment from this, as this one’s long enough already.
My thoughts on some previous comments on the News/Politics thread:
DJ, Aug. 17 @ 1:09pm: “I cannot support [Trump’s] bid to lead the nation. It comes down to what is known of his character to date.”
You have said before, I believe, that you prefer other, more centrist, sources to the ones generally posted here. I think it can be argued that few, if any, of those preferred sources will report anything significant about how Trump can be a blessing, for example, expressing his condolences to family members of fallen service members when it’s not even during his administration. If they do, it seems to be deeply buried in all the negative Trump coverage.
I ask in all honesty, DJ (as well as Cheryl and Kizzie, who IIRC have said they won’t vote for Trump, either, without a change in his character), how do you plan to become informed about any positive character traits Trump might express — traits that could decisively sway your opinion of him — when you don’t personally know him, and you don’t like “extreme” right (however that’s defined) sources?
Can it be reasonably well determined, about any person we’ve never met, that huge amounts of negative publicity, with little to no positive publicity, is an accurate picture of the profiled individual?
Please pardon me if that’s a dumb question. I know none of us is omniscient. It just seems that certain people — Trump included, but he’s not the only one — have, fairly or unfairly, too many hoops to jump through to be seen in a different light once they’ve been “pegged.”
DJ, Aug. 17 @ 1:42pm (I don’t mean to be picking on you! Your comments about asking posters what they meant, instead of assuming, are very good, so I’m following your advice.) 🙂 Regarding Trump’s aides reportedly being frustrated with his lack of focus and his distractedness: 1. Poor focus/distractedness isn’t evil. (I know you know that, and one would hope his aides understand that, too.) Do you believe that’s a reason that reinforces a viewpoint of “He has questionable character”? 2. He’s 70-something and just last month was shot. There were numerous levels of incompetence demonstrated in his security detail that day. Isn’t it plausible that a person of whatever prior degree of focus/attention would struggle more with that after such a near-death experience and understandable lack of confidence in the abilities of the humans whose calling is to protect him?
Is it fair to criticize or be frustrated by a person’s diminished performance after recently experiencing an event that most people would find traumatic?
I personally think not. Is it understandable that we flawed humans get frustrated, even exasperated, with people who aren’t functioning as well as we’d hoped? Yes, unfortunately. But, IMHO, his distractibility is not another black mark in Trump’s bad character column. I get the impression that recent events have added to his aides’ frustration with Trump, but maybe they’ve always loathed him to some degree and aren’t of any lower opinion of him now after the assassination attempt and his apparently worse focus since then.
Could you clarify your take on his distractibility of late and the necessity (or not) of reporting on aides’ reactions to it in the aftermath of the shooting?
Kathaleena, Aug. 18 @ 9:40am: “Now I doubt that this [comment about blue-collar workers] was meant in a disrespectful way, but my take on it is that there is a presumption of superiority in the comment.”
I want to “riff” off the term superiority you used — “riff” being a term I like from the musical world, as one music lover speaking to another, lol. 🙂
The thought of superiority — not in the context you used, Kathaleena, but in another that’s been on my mind for literally decades — has come to mind both in my years as a teacher and in the evolution I’ve seen here in the 12 years AJ’s had his blog, especially on the news/politics thread.
I hope to speak with grace toward all here, but am well aware that what I have to say could come across as insulting. It’s not my intent to be so, but I also don’t want, to quote others who have expressed this sentiment, to walk on eggshells.
Time to take a deep breath and start a new comment…
Decades ago, when I began teaching music in the public schools — a career that lasted only seven years — I noticed a trend in my elementary-school students that for the most part followed a certain trajectory.
Aside: If HRW is here, I would welcome his input on what he observed, given his predominantly working with a different age group than I, and more recently. (My school-teaching years were from 1986-1993, and I only had junior and senior high students two of those years, but K-6 all seven years.)
I found that around the time children got to second grade, a fairly significant number were quite focused on the behavior of their fellow classmates, and in most classes of this age group, there would be approximately two or three who would constantly be raising their hands or coming up to me to report misbehavior or what they identified as misbehavior.
By third grade, some were getting over this tendency to blurt out, “Ms. L, look what _________ is doing!” Fourth, fifth, sixth grades, more diminishing of that other-centeredness focus on what was wrong in the world, or at least in my little classroom.
I did some soul-searching, asking myself if it was poor classroom management that was contributing to the misbehavior. I became focused on preventing/fixing these problems.
As I gained more experience and confidence, I began to go a little deeper, to look at and try to understand the mindset of the students who were the perpetual complainers about their classmates’ misbehavior and just-plain-annoying characteristics (“He’s [absentmindedly] kicking my chair!”).
Why did some of those “student-reporters” seem to make it their mission to monitor other students?
And why did a very tiny minority not outgrow this tendency before junior high, to regularly look around and “tell on” their classmates?
I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this. But please don’t think I’m comparing any of you to second graders, or am equating personal attacks with chair-kicking!
Here’s where I believe superiority came in. None of these students who kept up their monitoring tendencies beyond their elementary years in my classroom exhibited the behaviors they regularly reported. They were good little boys and girls (mostly girls) — that “good little…”phraseology probably “sounds” sarcastic in print, though I don’t mean it that way.
Was it pride, a feeling of superiority in the well-behaved, good-character, polite-and-respectful department compared to some classmates, that led them to focus almost obsessively on the perceived or real shortcomings of those regularly in their company, for years and years and years?
I tend to think so, but I may be wrong and so I welcome anyone’s thoughts.
And so I meander my way to my question. For those of you adults — who are not seven and eight years old, but more than halfway to 100! — who have spent many years here wagging your finger at Trump, and AJ, and others, and maybe now me (go ahead, I can take it): Are you certain this is God’s will for your life, to spend literal years pointing out rudeness and impoliteness and lack of respect in the same people over and over?
Please understand I know what the Bible says about such things as iron sharpening iron, and admonishing an erring brother or sister in Christ.
The question essentially is, has God called you to a lifetime of calling out the same people in the same way, no matter how long they keep failing to “shape up”? (I’m not quoting anyone in particular there.)
Indeed, maybe God has called you to repeat the same admonitions to the same people indefinitely, for as long as they don’t measure up to God’s standards.
But what if God wanted you to issue a warning or a few, then walk away from repeatedly calling out that same behavior in those you have already admonished?
I do not know the will of God for your life, and I realize some of you have walked away from the heat for a time, then returned and did more admonishing in your quest to, accomplish what?
All well and good if you know you’re in the center of His will and calling for your life.
Are you?
Or are you (am I) perhaps impatient with how God is working in someone else’s life, or the timing in which He’s bringing fruit that you (or I) can personally see in another’s outward actions?
I ask not for an answer to any of this; I only encourage you to think and pray, and, like I said, I speak for myself, too, to examine my own heart for hidden areas of pride, of superiority, for thinking other people’s ______ sin (rudeness?) is so much worse than my _________ (repeated admonishments because ______).
Also, I wanted to say I think Debra had a good point about maybe sometimes it’s best to stick to one’s milieu (good word! but did I spell it right? lol) if one finds an environment distressing when it involves very different people than the types of people we grew up with. (Which also goes along with an earlier comment of Kathaleena’s.)
I guess I would say that for any of you who feel like you’re being attacked, no matter how anyone labels what you experienced, it is prudent to ask oneself a number of questions: 1. (channeling my husband’s sometimes-repeated refrain to me when he talks about others who are upset about things they don’t have to partake of) “Is anyone [“No one is…] holding a gun to your head, forcing you to stay in that place that upsets you.” 2. Are these distressing actions helping you focus on Philippians 4:8? And 3, a rather silly line from a TV show I watched years ago: “The good thing about banging my head against the wall is it feels so good when I stop!” 🙂
That’s probably way more than enough. I love everybody here, and mean no one any harm. It does seem like some progress was made in relations over the weekend, so I hope I didn’t make anything worse with what I said tonight. I’m very sorry if I did.
If anyone wishes to reply to me, please do so here and not in my inbox if you know my email. I probably won’t get back here until next weekend, but will eventually. Thanks.
Onward, Christian soldiers. The battle is already won.
Hey, 6, I haven’t said I’d never vote for Trump. In 2016 I said that for the first time in my adult life (I was a few months too young to vote for Reagan the second time he ran, and that grieved me–I’d loved him since the first time he ran, when I was in eighth grade) I wasn’t going to be voting for president, because Trump didn’t have the character needed to be the leader of our country, and I didn’t trust him. I thought his actions toward women reprehensible. I also said that if he did a really good job as president, I might reconsider when he ran for a second term.
I think that Trump did do well in his first term, and although I think he still has many issues (such as the juvenile insults and name calling), he seems now to be a faithful family man. It’s debatable what happened in the election of 2020, but was extremely suspicious that a man who didn’t campaign at all (Biden) got more votes than any other presidential candidate in history. It was also extremely unjust that the talking points were settled on that all Trump supporters are racists, and the only possible reason anyone can vote for Trump is racism. He also has experienced an amazing number of unjust attacks, for example hiding the “laptop” stories, two impeachments, the frivolous prosecutions, the attempt on his life. I think he probably acted foolishly in regards to January 6, but he truly believed the election to be being stolen, and there is more evidence coming out to support that–in which case it’s a little hard to say it’s the Republicans were the ones staging a coup. Certainly the politicians did everything to fan January 6 into something bigger than it should have been, and prosecutions for that have included a lot of injustice.
In 2020 I hated the rhetoric on this site. It was much stronger than this year, actually, I think. I went into the election undecided whether I could vote for Trump, and my husband was likewise torn. We voted with mail-in ballots (he has health issues that made us extremely cautious during Covid). We sat at the table with our ballots and looked at each other and shrugged and decided to vote for Trump.
I’ve never said on this site whether I did or didn’t. (Some with whom I’m in email contact do know.) I didn’t want to be part of the political discussion on here, or used as “ammunition” against those whose conscience against voting for Trump I respected.
So, one “no” in 2016, one extremely vacillating, hesitant “yes” in 2020, and what about in 2024?
My take is that Trump is running this time for the right reasons, because he truly believes it is in the best interest of this country. He knows he might get killed, but he thinks we’re in a dangerous place as a country and he believes himself to be well positioned to do the job. For one thing, we’re in an era when conservatives who run for office have to put up with a lot. Conservative judges face down lies that taint their reputations forever; many conservatives have faced threats as well and have dropped out. It takes courage to run for election as a conservative. Trump has that courage, and he understands how important that is–he knows more than almost anyone what he is up against. I think he is making the sacrifices necessary to run for office, that this time he is running as a statesman (albeit one with some weird personal foibles). I still wish we had a man with stronger personal character, and also a younger man, but I do think he has earned my vote, and he has it.
Very thought provoking, 6. Thanks. After rereading the tread I’ve determined to pray more often and more fervently for my pastor. Can you imagine one pastor who had all of us in a congregation? It would be like herding cats. :D. But wonderful cats. I do cherish you all.
PS I wrote most of the 11:21 post and had to take a break because my husband was heading for bed, and I came and finished it and posted it, to find the 11:05 post had been posted before mine, though not posted (and thus not read) before I wrote it.
This particular line sounds like you’re likely talking about me: “I realize some of you have walked away from the heat for a time, then returned and did more admonishing in your quest to, accomplish what?” If you are talking about me, where have I been doing more “admonishing”? A sincere apology was made, I accepted it, and I came back. In the dust-up this weekend I basically said, “Hey, both sides are reading the other side through past history, and overreacting. Both sides are just giving their opinions, and trying to bite their tongues while they do so.” In a different context someone wrote something that I was afraid I might have misread, so rather than responding to what was said, I asked what meaning had been intended, and my question wasn’t answered but instead rebuffed. I have given advice in situations where I have had experience in similar situations, but it has been some time since I have given anything approaching an “admonishment,” in my own recollection. And I rarely post anything on the news thread at all.
Still up, re-reading my tomes to find any dumb things I said/botched, and then saw your comments, Cheryl and Debra.
Thanks for clarifying, Cheryl, 11:21pm and apologies for misunderstanding what you did/didn’t say about Trump.
What you wrote about your voting decision process four and eight years ago is very interesting. In 2016, as in a few previous presidential election years, my husband and I did as we usually did: he’d ask me on election day who I’m voting for, I say, “The Constitution Party candidate,” and then he’d tell me he’d do the same. (And he did.)
2020 comes along, it’s election day (or Election Day, I suppose), I was ready to go out and vote — for Trump, because I thought our country had been better off as a result of his presidency — and I realized Hubby had not asked me the routine, “Who are you voting for?”
So I asked him who he was going to vote for today, and he said he’d already done early voting days before, and voted for the Constitution Party candidate.
So I changed my mind about voting for Trump and voted as my husband did. I hardly gave it any thought; it just seemed the natural thing to do once I knew how he voted.
Debra, 11:30, thanks for your comment, and LOL to if your pastor had us as congregants, it would be like herding cats! 😀
Our three pastors all officiated today at the dedication of our newly-completed building project. We had built a new church in 2002, and we’ve grown so much in the last 20 years that we needed more space for both the church and the school. I think we have something like 1500 members, and Bible studies get rather lively some weeks!
A lot of people in our area are leaving the public schools for either homeschooling or parochial school, and our congregation’s school has a waiting list. I think they will be able to accommodate all those students on the list when fall comes, now that the massive expansion is completed.
Oops, didn’t refresh when I went to grab a snack (actually more like a meal that I sat down to), so I didn’t see your 11:36 until now, Cheryl.
I’ll read it more closely later and get back to you. I’m going to try to get some sleep now, hopefully, before tomorrow, a day I’m not particularly looking forward to. Last lessons with two of my Monday students. Still so hard for me, though saying goodbye to students has gotten a bit easier over the 40+ years I’ve been teaching piano.
Cheryl, 11:36, quick answer, no, I wasn’t referring specifically to you with my “walked away from the heat for a time” comment. I’m not exactly sure why I worded it that way.
Typing too fast and not thinking enough, apparently.
Thanks, Cheryl. Hugs to you with your mentee leaving for college today. One of my students who’s finishing tomorrow is a student I recommended (to her parents) discontinue lessons. Only five and not working out for a variety of reasons. I shouldn’t be sad about that because I initiated that change!
Perhaps some day she’ll want to return to piano study. If so, I will likely be retired by then, but some teacher may benefit in the future from having her as a student who likely has decided for herself that she wants to learn piano.
That would be a nice ending, with positive memories to be had.
I thought I posted a reply, but it takes an extra step for me to post these days, and maybe I didn’t take that extra step. Anyway, thank you, and I hope those last lessons go well.
6 Arrows – I do see news items from sources with varying political stances, so yes, I do see some of the more positive stories about Trump. And I have sometimes defended him against unfair or false stories. My decision about him is not based merely on the negative aspects of his personality/character.
(It may surprise many here to know that I recently re-examined my stance on not voting for him, to make sure that I was making the decision for the right – to me – reasons. One of the reasons I don’t like being dismissed as a “Never-Trumper”. There is so much more to my thinking and view than that.)
You asked DJ about her comment about Trump’s lack of focus and being easily distracted, and if she thinks that is a character issue. I can’t answer for her, but my view is that those are not particularly matters of character, but could be detrimental to someone in the important office of the presidency. They were present even before the shooting.
You are certainly right about us banging our heads against the wall, and even before I read your comment, I was deciding to let it all go. I will still probably share an article or comment now and then, but resist getting sucked into the negativity that may result.
This has probably gotten lost within all the various discussions, but often, it has not been in my own defense that I have commented, but in defense of someone else. (Coming to a person’s defense is a tendency I have occasionally had on Facebook, too.)
As for “telling on” AJ as in a feeling of superiority, I doubt that that is it, and hope it is not. For one thing, we address our comments to him directly, and what he says and what we say is out here for all to read.
For another thing, my own reasoning has been to try to urge a brother-in-Christ to be more careful of his wording and attitude. (And yes, often when the discussion goes off the rails, I am not happy with the attitude of frustration that sometimes rears up in me.) But as you said, it is like beating my head against a wall. That wall ain’t gonna move, and is hard.
Wandering Views 
AJ – Last night, you replied to DJ in a rude and graceless way (and included me in it). In a follow-up comment, you claimed that DJ’s comment, which was sharing an opinion, and not rudely worded, was not showing grace to Trump.
I don’t see much grace from you for Harris or Biden or Walz or anyone on the left, and what DJ said was not even close to how harsh your words have been about them. In fact, I don’t think her words were harsh, just honest.
Re: DJ’s comment @ 4:21pm yesterday) Even some Trump supporters have been dismayed at how Trump has been reacting to Harris, rehashing his grievances and engaging in his usual insults at a time when he should be more focused on political stances and policies. And they are concerned that he will not do well in the upcoming debate against her.
(And in going back to that thread to find the time of that comment, I see that DJ has commented again.)
What I have seen is that no matter how either DJ or I have tried to explain why we are not supporting Trump, you disagree with those reasons and so dismiss them as “Orange man bad” and us as “Never-Trumpers”.
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Thanks Kizzie — and my disputed comment from yesterday indeed was picking up on the very frustration Trump’s own aides have expressed with the candidate right now, that’s he’s not focused, he isn’t going after Harris with a degree of seriousness on the specific issues, but instead is going down his usual rabbit trails with ad libs too often.
My comment yesterday was only that I wish we did have a serious conservative candidate who could start (it’s already late) taking her to task on some serious issues. She has many weaknesses and needs to be taken to task for those — but Trump seems, well, distracted and undisciplined, as usual. Some of his aides privately, according to reports, have expressed some frustration with this.
Trump tends to lose and lack focus, it’s been a characteristic all along (he’s really more of an entertainer than a serious statesman and he seems to depend on that way too much). The name-calling, the jabs meant to be funny are growing old and none of that is working so well anymore.
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I wish we had more perfect candidates for the more perfect citizens to vote for. As for some of us, if need be, we hold our nose and vote for who we think will support our values. I held my nose and voted for Romney.
I continue to think the election is more about issues than character. I wish for less bashing of either character running for the top spot or the supporting role. I give grace to those who think character is more important than issues. We all have blind spots.
Why not agree to disagree on the character qualities and move out of a sticking point of aggravation?
Another ad lie is playing on the TV right now. Blah, blah, blah . . . Georgia is too blessed with so many political ads..
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This doesn’t pass the smell test. First Trump’s plane a week ago, now Vance’s plane.
https://x.com/BBCWorld/status/1824579319726792899?t=y0tjK8U_GCXssIrw4xuaUw&s=19
“Vance plane makes emergency landing due to malfunction”
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Janice, there is almost always some nose-holding required at election time, some years are worse than others.
Exiles still.
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Some presidential historians say character is, indeed, probably the most important trait for a president to have.
Without it ….
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It is foundational.
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Reality is Kamala’s plan sucks.
https://x.com/RobertMSterling/status/1824840348008391127?t=LmDj01fg3-b8s9v5jWnDNQ&s=19
“People need to stop overreacting about Kamala’s plan to reduce food inflation, as if it would lead to communism, mass starvation, and the end of America.
I worked in M&A in the food industry. Here’s a step-by-step summary of what would actually happen:
1. The government announces that grocery retailers aren’t allowed to raise prices.
2. Grocery stores, which operate on 1-2% net margins, can’t survive if their suppliers raise prices. So the government announces that food producers (Kraft Heinz, ConAgra, Tyson, Hormel, et. al.) also aren’t allowed to raise prices.
3. Not all grocery stores are created equal. Stores in lower-income areas make less money than those in higher-income areas, as the former disproportionately sell lower-margin prepackaged foods (“center of the store”) instead of higher-margin fresh products like meat (“perimeter of the store”). Because stores in lower-income areas aren’t able to cover overhead (remember, even if their wholesale costs are fixed, their labor, utilities, insurance, and other operating expenses aren’t fixed… yet), grocery chains start to shut them down. Food deserts in rural areas and in low-income urban areas alike become worse.
4. Meanwhile, margins for food producers are also quickly eroding. Their primary costs (ingredients, energy, and labor) aren’t fixed, and their shrinking gross profits leave less cash flow available to cover overhead, maintain facilities, and reinvest in additional production capacity.
5. Grocery chains, which have finite shelf space, start to repurpose their stores (those they didn’t have to shut down, I should say) to sell more non-price-controlled items—everything from nutrition supplements to kitchenware to apparel—and less price-controlled food products. Your local Kroger or Safeway starts to look and feel more like a Walmart.”
——
Read the rest…
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Who’s a good little Marxist…?
https://x.com/charliekirk11/status/1824661827156107676?t=-KfQePkU3Jr9nTVXICpDsA&s=19
“Truly terrifying clip of Kamala running for president in 2019 threatening to seize private property from corporations:
“I will snatch their patent. Yes we can do that. Yes we can. The question is do you have the will to do it. I have the will to do it.””
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“Kamala announces she’ll use the government to control grocery prices and the money printer to issue $25,000 checks for housing costs
The basic laws of economics show this will absolutely destroy our capitalist economy
But then again that’s her goal”
https://x.com/DC_Draino/status/1824453656629956892?t=42iMYGttsV7lKNeNwr7X3g&s=19
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“Wow even the Washington Post is running opinion pieces slamming Kamala Harris’ communist price control proposal 👀”
https://x.com/alexbruesewitz/status/1824430074621235676?t=JYvFrV6RA4yTEcZfhunoiw&s=19
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Hey Janice, I have a question about these two sentences back to back: “I give grace to those who think character is more important than issues. We all have blind spots.”
Did you mean (1) We all have our blind spots, our areas of bad character, or (2) We all have our blind spots, and for some people their blind spot is mistakenly thinking that moral character is more important than political issues?
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When they tell you who they are, believe them. This is the mentality behind the lawfare against Trump.
https://x.com/EricAbbenante/status/1824542279539081726?t=snHEZpw9CBgHzHmx7n0qOg&s=19
“Power hungry Kamala Harris describing how she can ruin lives with the ‘swipe of a pen’:”I learned that with the swipe of my pen, I could charge someone with the lowest level offense. And because of the swipe of my pen, that person could be arrested, they could sit in jail for at least 48 hours, they could lose time from work and their family, maybe lose their job. They’d have to come out of their own pocket to help hire a lawyer. They’d lose standing in their community.All because of the swipe of my pen.
Weeks later I could dismiss the charges, but their life would be forever be changed.
So I learned at a very young age, the power.””
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Again…..
https://x.com/EricAbbenante/status/1824260855510237511?t=PQqwhUKynSQgmZiFv0pwuw&s=19
“Kamala Harris became Hiding Harris because she learned from her last presidential campaign that her ideas are lampoonable:”For every 1% differential between what they are paying men and women for equal work, there will be a fine of 1% of their previous year’s profits.”
Kamala Harris’ 2020 presidential campaign and her Senate office were both found to pay male staffers more than female staffers. “
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Reality is sometimes brutal.
https://x.com/joma_gc/status/1824507654741348501?t=3WagLyDynXQZOV5PbTcDYg&s=19
“109 people showed up to Kamala’s rally in North Carolina today including press and staff. This is the level of excitement when there are no free concerts, cash payments, or strippers twerking.”
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It’s also cruel….
https://x.com/TheChiefNerd/status/1824613097652314265?t=rLpNQ1dmqnY5aIt_pjvdMw&s=19
“David Friedberg SHREDS the Kamala Harris Grocery ‘Price Gouging’ Plan
“Every socialist experiment in human history has started with caps on food and it has resulted in bread lines like you can see in the image behind me…This is a mistake. It is anti-American.””
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I do believe Trump can and will address the issues. He is turning from attack mode to addressing policy. He can bring out the facts without stooping to disparagement. I am praying he continue to do so.
mumsee
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I am not up for an argument. I give grace to those who think differently than I do expecting the same from the other person because I have been given grace by the Ultimate Grace Giver and He knows who is right or if it matters or if neither is right. Grace is good. I am not here to argue. Edit as you wish. I am not a perfect wordsmith.
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Janice – I could be mistaken, but I think that Cheryl is merely trying to understand your previous comment a little better.
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I am gun shy. Too much past history. Forgiven but not forgotten. Don’t want to step in land mines again. I love going forward in God’s love, peace, and grace.
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Yes, Janice, I was trying to understand. Because I would tend to agree that character is more important than issues–partly because your stand on the issues is affected by your character, but also because how you treat people is inevitably affected by your character. A leader without good character can be bought or sold, or can condemn innocent people. Competence may matter as much as character, but nothing really matters <i>more.</i>
BTW, in reading through the discussions last night, I think both sides of you are talking past each other because of frustration from previous conversations. Both of you are stating your opinions, and I think both are even biting your tongues a little.
It reminded me of a few years ago when my sister brought up something I had presumably said several years prior (but didn’t remember saying). She decided that my fiance, now my husband, doesn’t like children (she hadn’t even met him yet and the assessment isn’t true, but that’s the context), and she reminded me that she had once told me that her husband didn’t like either dogs or cats, and I had said that I couldn’t marry someone who didn’t like either dogs or cats. I’m simply too much of an animal person for that to be a good connection. (I don’t like cats, and I’m allergic to them, but at least I have sympathy with the common level of humanity that has a person liking cats rather than dogs. Disliking both is something I can’t really comprehend.) She was making the point that it was hypocritical to not be OK with someone not liking dogs or cats but being willing to marry someone who didn’t like children–and she’d have had a point, had it been true. (My husband had just spent several years as a single, stay-at-home dad after his wife died of cancer, so the “not liking children” wasn’t actually true.) What I realized is that she took personally what hadn’t been meant to be personal. I don’t care if she wants to marry someone who doesn’t like either dogs or cats; it wouldn’t be a good match <i>for me.</i>
Ideally, in relationships where people trust each other and try to think the best of each other, someone can state an opinion as to their own preferences, the most important elements of why they vote, etc., and have the opinion taken at face value.
None of us on this blog is saying that the most important characteristic of a candidate is that the person supports the “right” to abortion. We all have more or less the same priorities on the issues. We differ on our opinions as to how deeply flawed some candidates are (and I’m about in the middle of the two “sides” on that), and how much their character matters. There should be room to disagree, and have polite discussions on the matter, especially with the levels of agreement we actually do hold.
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via dispatch:
~ As much as Trump can be unpredictable and mercurial, his campaign managers … are seasoned political operatives who’ve been trying to give Trump good advice. (Trump’s Getting Good Advice. He Just Refuses to Take It.)
Advisers and pundits want the former president to stick to the issues.
But with Trump losing ground in the polls, guess who’s back? Corey Lewandowski, who ran much of Trump’s 2016 campaign, is joining the team as an adviser, and he’ll be bringing his 2016 playbook with him: “Let Trump Be Trump.” … ~
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I agree, Cheryl @4:05 good post. I wish we could have actual discussions here as well. I think some of us have tried.
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I’ve been baffled by how much we do agree on — and how it has still degenerated to a rather shocking level of rudeness so often.
Go figure … ?
We can probably blame this on “X” and other online craziness that has overtaken our culture and even the behavior of Christians.
But posting thread guidelines and tips for keeping discussions here civil and respectful also may have helped in the beginning; apparently none of us thought there would be a need. But human nature being what it is … 😦
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I just caught up on the politics thread on a rare day off. (Normally, I would be at work right now as I’ve been bumped to a 3rd shift line that is running 6 days a week 10pm-6am. It’s taxing labor but it pays the bills, so I’m thankful I can still do it at 65.) Lighten up everyone! This isn’t Meet the Press. No one need carry the burden of offense because someone else is gruff. It’s nothing shocking, even among good Christians. Believe me. Let it go. You’ll sleep better, and so will everyone else. That’s all I have to say about that.
Cheryl said something about character that interests me because husband and I have been talking about it in relation to Trump. She said ‘…your stand on issues is affected by your character….’. To me the most interesting issues that Trump has promoted are a strong domestic agenda supporting working families and businesses, getting a handle on illegal immigration, a competent defense that insists on our allies paying their share, and an unwillingness to launch new wars or military operations behaving as the world’s “policeman”. To me, these are not just political issues; they also reflect his character. And they reflect our character. Particularly, the unwillingness to kill others without clear provocation is as at least as important to me as abortion—perhaps more so. And it’s definitely a character issue.
I do think Trump believes what he has said about these issues. But, and this is what we’ve been debating between us, does he have the character to follow through? His lack of focus is one thing. I’m told that he has also floated the idea of including in his cabinet or administration Jamie Dimon (who promoted the idea of ‘too big to fail’ in the Great Recession) and some equally repulsive (to me) Black Rock executive. Even knowing there will be compromises, husband wonders if Trump lacks the character to follow through with his own agenda, and is he too vain to be dependable. He has a point. But either way, it is very much a character issue.
These are some of the things we weigh when we are deciding how to vote…or whether to vote. They are worthy of discussion, even if the discussion is sometimes blunt or gruff or offensive.
—Debra
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I am going to wade into the discussion on grace about how we comment. I hope you will all extend me grace.
Everyone comes from different types of families. Some families have vigorous debates. They are not afraid to state their opinions freely. They do not feel the need to worry all the time that someone’s feelings are hurt whenever they state how they really feel, because they know the other person will just shove back or let it go and vice versa. I come from a family like that. Therefore, I don’t get upset when someone disagrees with me in what may seem to be disrespectful way.
For example, this was an opinion expressed yesterday: “I get how folks like my neighbors like him and what he says. They were lifelong, blue-collar Democrats — who don’t follow politics closely — and liked what they heard. I get that”.
Now I doubt that this was meant in a disrespectful way, but my take on it is that there is a presumption of superiority in the comment. Those who support the candidate is a bit more ignorant than those who don’t. They are not as up on things as the person who doesn’t. They are ‘blue collar’ and clearly not as educated.
I think what Aj was saying was that there is substance that is spoken in Trump’s speeches. It is interspersed among the ‘showmen’ stuff, but you seem not to hear it.
Lots of Trump’s comments do not sound like Minnesota nice to me, but then lots of Walz’ comments are not MN nice, nor Biden’s and Harris’ etc. Vance has, certainly, spoken policy in the speeches I have heard him make. Politics can be vicious and unpleasant to say the least.
We can all also misunderstand each other. If we always have to be walking on eggshells, it does become unpleasant and uncomfortable to have any discussion. That does not only come from one side on this blog, IMO, however. I just refrain from making an issue of it from some I see “on the other side.” I learn how others think, which is not a bad thing, IMO.
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Agreed Debra and Kathaleena.
mumsee
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Does that include personal attacks?
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Kizzie,I value your and DJ’s contributions to the thread (as well as HRW’s) and it is evident that there is plenty of good will here. What you see as personal attacks or a ‘beat down’ I see as lively conversation. I doubt anyone here has received anything close to a beat down or personal attack. I know what it is like to have someone stand in my face and literally scream at me for nothing I actually did. Nothing. Not once or twice, but day after day after week after week. And yes, she was a Christian, not the finest example, but not the worst sort either by any means. No one has experienced anything close to a beat down or personal attack on this blog. Don’t take this the wrong way, but I have wondered if some people are so thin skinned they are really not fit for conversation at all outside their own milieu. Instead of trying to change others’ personality, why not try to change their opinion on the News thread. Instead of complaining about perceived or even real offenses, why not be an example of giving grace rather than complaining you or DJ don’t get any. Because from where I’m standing, you both get plenty. Not being mean, just candid because I love you. And because I have the opportunity.
—-Debra
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Good comments/observations about giving grace here.
I finally saw a Harris yard sign in the yard of my neighbor who was daughter of the county school superintendent, my senior English teacher in high school, and finally on the board of our county schools. My other neighbor still has the Biden sign out. I see there is ranking as to who gets the signs first 🙂
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Concerning Pres. Trump…
He is very smart, and he has been taking Harris to task on the issues. Effectively debate her? It wouldn’t even be a fair contest. However, I’m still expecting the Dems to do something so that she doesn’t even need to show up. Even they know that she is a bad candidate, and they’re still trying to hide her from having to face questions and any kind of scrutiny.
Distracted and undisciplined? Pres. Trump is totally focused on working for the American people and righting this country. Aides have been expressing frustration? According to what reports? Are they like the ‘reports’ that said that Trump is angry that he chose J.D. Vance? Nothing could be further from the truth, and Vance is performing brilliantly.
Pres. Trump is the one who has a proven Conservative track record, and who talks about policies more than him?
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The defense rests. Thanks, Tychicus. It is refreshing to hear a positive report about either side 🙂
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Kizzie, I am not sure what you mean by your question about personal attacks. I don’t condone anyone making personal attacks. I don’t condone Trump doing it or anyone else running from office. It certainly is not done just by Trump. I think it really hurts him in the long run.
Nor do I think it should be done here. (Again, it just hurts someone from really being heard) I don’t think the term “Never Trumper” is an insult. If it applies to someone who believes that anyone in the world is better than Trump. I have no idea if I have been included in that term at some point myself.
I do think all our speech is to be considered in the light of scripture. We are to speak with grace, for example. However, there is much that Jesus said, and Paul said that could be questioned by some as being spoken in grace.
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Kathaleena – In my comment yesterday in which I mentioned DJ and I being referred to as “Never-Trumpers,” I did not mean that as being an insult, but was referring to the dismissiveness of the term – dismissing any concern they may have because they are merely a “Never-Trumper” or whatnot.
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It’s not the words so much from either side, but the tone. I have noticed an accusatory tone at times on one side and a condescending and badgering tone from the other side. Now I am ready to take hits from all around. Please give grace.
Did someone mention a book, maybe by the title, Unoffendable, or something like that? I think I need that book and maybe others here need it, too.
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As for Jesus and Paul, weren’t their harsh words for the religious leaders and/or hypocrites, not the average person?
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Debra – Thank you. I love you, too. 🙂
Believe it or not, I am not particularly thin-skinned. I have been in discussions on Facebook in which some folks can get heated or strong in the way they express themselves, and am able to deal with it.
But on a site that is supposed to be a place for Christian believers, the tone should mirror that. The Bible has so much to say about how believers should communicate with each other. Not to mention the fact that good debate does not include personal put-downs.
DJ and I are not the only ones who find AJ’s words offensive or hurtful at times, but we are the ones who have not yet given up on the news thread. I know of some who have, mostly because of the tone. One former WMBer who checked out the news thread one day decided the tone was not worth putting up with. And that man, who engages in other discussions on Facebook – even heated ones – is no shrinking violet, believe me.
So although it may seem that DJ and I are the “only ones” who sometimes have a problem here, it is only because we’re the only ones who have stuck around while daring to offer differing views.
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Janice – Yes, it is the tone that comes across with the words that is the main problem.
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https://www.richardblackaby.com/book-review-unoffendable-how-just-one-change-can-make-all-of-life-better/
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Civility isn’t easy in the online world but – as Kizzie points out – it’s mainly what we’ve advocated for here. I’d like to think we’ve had some influence on that front.
I may fail from time to time, to be sure, but I’ve always tried to be dispassionate (rather than emotional – and certainly not angry) when posting on this thread. I simply think it’s good to have a variety of views here. But that is challenging as one “side” does predominate. All the more reason to be careful with our interactions and words, especially, I’d say, on the majority view’s side.
Tolerance of other views is among our main points, it’s not about “winning” a knock-down, drag out fight. Or it shouldn’t be so among believers, as Kizzie points out.
We’ve been wrongly accused of believing many things here in the heat of the battle and all of that simply fans the flames.
That said, I would hope we could keep up the emphasis I now see here (newly?) on showing grace and speaking appropriately to one another (and about others, even those who are public figures we may not like very much).
Seriously, if that’s what comes out of this particular ‘dust up,’ then that’s all good.
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Kathaleena (@9:40) — there certainly was no looking down on my neighbors. I know many who support Trump and I do not in any way think less of them. So, if I can civilly say so, you read that wrong. 🙂 Or perhaps I worded it clumsily.
There’s also more of a populist “movement” that has grown up around Trump that I frankly find more troubling. This happens to some extent in many elections, but it is a view that a politician is RIGHT no matter what. Followers in these kinds of movements (and they’re seen on the left and right) lose perspective.
I’ll stop there, but thanks for the opportunity to clear that up as it was misunderstood apparently.
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If we think we’re misunderstanding something — or we question something — it’s good and appropriate to ask about it. Let the poster more fully explain.
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And back to Kathaleena’s thinking I’ve condescended and somehow am looking down on my neighbors — You don’t know me, I realize, but I come from a very blue collar background, I grew up in what has been called the inner city, I am about as blue-collar as they come. I love my neighbors, I do not and would never condescend to them. I understand Trump’s appeal.
That would be something that would have been good to ask me about — but I’m glad that belatedly I can, at least, respond.
It’s a weakness sometimes of the written word, especially when it’s a thread where we sometimes post on the fly.
We sometimes misunderstand and make presumptions but those can be cleared up quickly if we allow. I’m sorry I saw that post so belatedly but certainly did not want it left unanswered. I would have cleared it up way earlier had I seen it.
Thanks. That’s all.
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Janice, your 1:41 this afternoon: I’m not surprised that your neighbor with various connections to the public school system is voting Democrat. (Though not all public school teachers do, obviously.) I found when I was a school teacher that there was a huge push from the teachers’ unions and other entities in the education system to vote Dem. The union always strongly endorsed the D candidate, thus my naively voting for Dukakis the first election year after I started teaching school, even though I’d voted for Reagan in ’80 and ’84 as a college student. 🙂
I didn’t vote for Clinton in ’92, though! I wonder if one of my 5th graders would have been disappointed in me if she’d known I didn’t do so. When we were singing a song by a contemporary composer of school music, about the (then-) upcoming election, the aforementioned student decided to boldly declare to the class, “If I was old enough to vote, I’d vote for Bill Clinton because he supports a woman’s right to choose.”
I know she knew exactly what “the right to choose” was referring to, too.
Anyway… writing to everyone here, I don’t care what anyone thinks of my voting choices. Republican, Democrat, Independent, Constitution party — I’ve done them all, admittedly with varying degrees of awareness and intentionality about why I chose as I did — and this year will be a first as a “None,” if I go that route. (I’m considering that based on the article I linked from The Federalist a few weeks ago. I like Joy Pullmann, the author; she really gets me thinking.)
If anyone calls me an idiot or whatever else because of my voting history or its possible future, or accuses me of being complicit in ruining the country, well, bring on the internet tomatoes! Water off a duck’s back, and that’s that. 🙂
I have more to say about other recent comments on this thread, but will write a separate comment from this, as this one’s long enough already.
~6
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My thoughts on some previous comments on the News/Politics thread:
DJ, Aug. 17 @ 1:09pm: “I cannot support [Trump’s] bid to lead the nation. It comes down to what is known of his character to date.”
You have said before, I believe, that you prefer other, more centrist, sources to the ones generally posted here. I think it can be argued that few, if any, of those preferred sources will report anything significant about how Trump can be a blessing, for example, expressing his condolences to family members of fallen service members when it’s not even during his administration. If they do, it seems to be deeply buried in all the negative Trump coverage.
I ask in all honesty, DJ (as well as Cheryl and Kizzie, who IIRC have said they won’t vote for Trump, either, without a change in his character), how do you plan to become informed about any positive character traits Trump might express — traits that could decisively sway your opinion of him — when you don’t personally know him, and you don’t like “extreme” right (however that’s defined) sources?
Can it be reasonably well determined, about any person we’ve never met, that huge amounts of negative publicity, with little to no positive publicity, is an accurate picture of the profiled individual?
Please pardon me if that’s a dumb question. I know none of us is omniscient. It just seems that certain people — Trump included, but he’s not the only one — have, fairly or unfairly, too many hoops to jump through to be seen in a different light once they’ve been “pegged.”
DJ, Aug. 17 @ 1:42pm (I don’t mean to be picking on you! Your comments about asking posters what they meant, instead of assuming, are very good, so I’m following your advice.) 🙂 Regarding Trump’s aides reportedly being frustrated with his lack of focus and his distractedness: 1. Poor focus/distractedness isn’t evil. (I know you know that, and one would hope his aides understand that, too.) Do you believe that’s a reason that reinforces a viewpoint of “He has questionable character”? 2. He’s 70-something and just last month was shot. There were numerous levels of incompetence demonstrated in his security detail that day. Isn’t it plausible that a person of whatever prior degree of focus/attention would struggle more with that after such a near-death experience and understandable lack of confidence in the abilities of the humans whose calling is to protect him?
Is it fair to criticize or be frustrated by a person’s diminished performance after recently experiencing an event that most people would find traumatic?
I personally think not. Is it understandable that we flawed humans get frustrated, even exasperated, with people who aren’t functioning as well as we’d hoped? Yes, unfortunately. But, IMHO, his distractibility is not another black mark in Trump’s bad character column. I get the impression that recent events have added to his aides’ frustration with Trump, but maybe they’ve always loathed him to some degree and aren’t of any lower opinion of him now after the assassination attempt and his apparently worse focus since then.
Could you clarify your take on his distractibility of late and the necessity (or not) of reporting on aides’ reactions to it in the aftermath of the shooting?
Kathaleena, Aug. 18 @ 9:40am: “Now I doubt that this [comment about blue-collar workers] was meant in a disrespectful way, but my take on it is that there is a presumption of superiority in the comment.”
I want to “riff” off the term superiority you used — “riff” being a term I like from the musical world, as one music lover speaking to another, lol. 🙂
The thought of superiority — not in the context you used, Kathaleena, but in another that’s been on my mind for literally decades — has come to mind both in my years as a teacher and in the evolution I’ve seen here in the 12 years AJ’s had his blog, especially on the news/politics thread.
I hope to speak with grace toward all here, but am well aware that what I have to say could come across as insulting. It’s not my intent to be so, but I also don’t want, to quote others who have expressed this sentiment, to walk on eggshells.
Time to take a deep breath and start a new comment…
~6
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Thoughts on superiority:
Decades ago, when I began teaching music in the public schools — a career that lasted only seven years — I noticed a trend in my elementary-school students that for the most part followed a certain trajectory.
Aside: If HRW is here, I would welcome his input on what he observed, given his predominantly working with a different age group than I, and more recently. (My school-teaching years were from 1986-1993, and I only had junior and senior high students two of those years, but K-6 all seven years.)
I found that around the time children got to second grade, a fairly significant number were quite focused on the behavior of their fellow classmates, and in most classes of this age group, there would be approximately two or three who would constantly be raising their hands or coming up to me to report misbehavior or what they identified as misbehavior.
By third grade, some were getting over this tendency to blurt out, “Ms. L, look what _________ is doing!” Fourth, fifth, sixth grades, more diminishing of that other-centeredness focus on what was wrong in the world, or at least in my little classroom.
I did some soul-searching, asking myself if it was poor classroom management that was contributing to the misbehavior. I became focused on preventing/fixing these problems.
As I gained more experience and confidence, I began to go a little deeper, to look at and try to understand the mindset of the students who were the perpetual complainers about their classmates’ misbehavior and just-plain-annoying characteristics (“He’s [absentmindedly] kicking my chair!”).
Why did some of those “student-reporters” seem to make it their mission to monitor other students?
And why did a very tiny minority not outgrow this tendency before junior high, to regularly look around and “tell on” their classmates?
I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this. But please don’t think I’m comparing any of you to second graders, or am equating personal attacks with chair-kicking!
Here’s where I believe superiority came in. None of these students who kept up their monitoring tendencies beyond their elementary years in my classroom exhibited the behaviors they regularly reported. They were good little boys and girls (mostly girls) — that “good little…”phraseology probably “sounds” sarcastic in print, though I don’t mean it that way.
Was it pride, a feeling of superiority in the well-behaved, good-character, polite-and-respectful department compared to some classmates, that led them to focus almost obsessively on the perceived or real shortcomings of those regularly in their company, for years and years and years?
I tend to think so, but I may be wrong and so I welcome anyone’s thoughts.
And so I meander my way to my question. For those of you adults — who are not seven and eight years old, but more than halfway to 100! — who have spent many years here wagging your finger at Trump, and AJ, and others, and maybe now me (go ahead, I can take it): Are you certain this is God’s will for your life, to spend literal years pointing out rudeness and impoliteness and lack of respect in the same people over and over?
Please understand I know what the Bible says about such things as iron sharpening iron, and admonishing an erring brother or sister in Christ.
The question essentially is, has God called you to a lifetime of calling out the same people in the same way, no matter how long they keep failing to “shape up”? (I’m not quoting anyone in particular there.)
Indeed, maybe God has called you to repeat the same admonitions to the same people indefinitely, for as long as they don’t measure up to God’s standards.
But what if God wanted you to issue a warning or a few, then walk away from repeatedly calling out that same behavior in those you have already admonished?
I do not know the will of God for your life, and I realize some of you have walked away from the heat for a time, then returned and did more admonishing in your quest to, accomplish what?
All well and good if you know you’re in the center of His will and calling for your life.
Are you?
Or are you (am I) perhaps impatient with how God is working in someone else’s life, or the timing in which He’s bringing fruit that you (or I) can personally see in another’s outward actions?
I ask not for an answer to any of this; I only encourage you to think and pray, and, like I said, I speak for myself, too, to examine my own heart for hidden areas of pride, of superiority, for thinking other people’s ______ sin (rudeness?) is so much worse than my _________ (repeated admonishments because ______).
Also, I wanted to say I think Debra had a good point about maybe sometimes it’s best to stick to one’s milieu (good word! but did I spell it right? lol) if one finds an environment distressing when it involves very different people than the types of people we grew up with. (Which also goes along with an earlier comment of Kathaleena’s.)
I guess I would say that for any of you who feel like you’re being attacked, no matter how anyone labels what you experienced, it is prudent to ask oneself a number of questions: 1. (channeling my husband’s sometimes-repeated refrain to me when he talks about others who are upset about things they don’t have to partake of) “Is anyone [“No one is…] holding a gun to your head, forcing you to stay in that place that upsets you.” 2. Are these distressing actions helping you focus on Philippians 4:8? And 3, a rather silly line from a TV show I watched years ago: “The good thing about banging my head against the wall is it feels so good when I stop!” 🙂
That’s probably way more than enough. I love everybody here, and mean no one any harm. It does seem like some progress was made in relations over the weekend, so I hope I didn’t make anything worse with what I said tonight. I’m very sorry if I did.
If anyone wishes to reply to me, please do so here and not in my inbox if you know my email. I probably won’t get back here until next weekend, but will eventually. Thanks.
Onward, Christian soldiers. The battle is already won.
~6
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Hey, 6, I haven’t said I’d never vote for Trump. In 2016 I said that for the first time in my adult life (I was a few months too young to vote for Reagan the second time he ran, and that grieved me–I’d loved him since the first time he ran, when I was in eighth grade) I wasn’t going to be voting for president, because Trump didn’t have the character needed to be the leader of our country, and I didn’t trust him. I thought his actions toward women reprehensible. I also said that if he did a really good job as president, I might reconsider when he ran for a second term.
I think that Trump did do well in his first term, and although I think he still has many issues (such as the juvenile insults and name calling), he seems now to be a faithful family man. It’s debatable what happened in the election of 2020, but was extremely suspicious that a man who didn’t campaign at all (Biden) got more votes than any other presidential candidate in history. It was also extremely unjust that the talking points were settled on that all Trump supporters are racists, and the only possible reason anyone can vote for Trump is racism. He also has experienced an amazing number of unjust attacks, for example hiding the “laptop” stories, two impeachments, the frivolous prosecutions, the attempt on his life. I think he probably acted foolishly in regards to January 6, but he truly believed the election to be being stolen, and there is more evidence coming out to support that–in which case it’s a little hard to say it’s the Republicans were the ones staging a coup. Certainly the politicians did everything to fan January 6 into something bigger than it should have been, and prosecutions for that have included a lot of injustice.
In 2020 I hated the rhetoric on this site. It was much stronger than this year, actually, I think. I went into the election undecided whether I could vote for Trump, and my husband was likewise torn. We voted with mail-in ballots (he has health issues that made us extremely cautious during Covid). We sat at the table with our ballots and looked at each other and shrugged and decided to vote for Trump.
I’ve never said on this site whether I did or didn’t. (Some with whom I’m in email contact do know.) I didn’t want to be part of the political discussion on here, or used as “ammunition” against those whose conscience against voting for Trump I respected.
So, one “no” in 2016, one extremely vacillating, hesitant “yes” in 2020, and what about in 2024?
My take is that Trump is running this time for the right reasons, because he truly believes it is in the best interest of this country. He knows he might get killed, but he thinks we’re in a dangerous place as a country and he believes himself to be well positioned to do the job. For one thing, we’re in an era when conservatives who run for office have to put up with a lot. Conservative judges face down lies that taint their reputations forever; many conservatives have faced threats as well and have dropped out. It takes courage to run for election as a conservative. Trump has that courage, and he understands how important that is–he knows more than almost anyone what he is up against. I think he is making the sacrifices necessary to run for office, that this time he is running as a statesman (albeit one with some weird personal foibles). I still wish we had a man with stronger personal character, and also a younger man, but I do think he has earned my vote, and he has it.
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Very thought provoking, 6. Thanks. After rereading the tread I’ve determined to pray more often and more fervently for my pastor. Can you imagine one pastor who had all of us in a congregation? It would be like herding cats. :D. But wonderful cats. I do cherish you all.
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PS I wrote most of the 11:21 post and had to take a break because my husband was heading for bed, and I came and finished it and posted it, to find the 11:05 post had been posted before mine, though not posted (and thus not read) before I wrote it.
This particular line sounds like you’re likely talking about me: “I realize some of you have walked away from the heat for a time, then returned and did more admonishing in your quest to, accomplish what?” If you are talking about me, where have I been doing more “admonishing”? A sincere apology was made, I accepted it, and I came back. In the dust-up this weekend I basically said, “Hey, both sides are reading the other side through past history, and overreacting. Both sides are just giving their opinions, and trying to bite their tongues while they do so.” In a different context someone wrote something that I was afraid I might have misread, so rather than responding to what was said, I asked what meaning had been intended, and my question wasn’t answered but instead rebuffed. I have given advice in situations where I have had experience in similar situations, but it has been some time since I have given anything approaching an “admonishment,” in my own recollection. And I rarely post anything on the news thread at all.
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Still up, re-reading my tomes to find any dumb things I said/botched, and then saw your comments, Cheryl and Debra.
Thanks for clarifying, Cheryl, 11:21pm and apologies for misunderstanding what you did/didn’t say about Trump.
What you wrote about your voting decision process four and eight years ago is very interesting. In 2016, as in a few previous presidential election years, my husband and I did as we usually did: he’d ask me on election day who I’m voting for, I say, “The Constitution Party candidate,” and then he’d tell me he’d do the same. (And he did.)
2020 comes along, it’s election day (or Election Day, I suppose), I was ready to go out and vote — for Trump, because I thought our country had been better off as a result of his presidency — and I realized Hubby had not asked me the routine, “Who are you voting for?”
So I asked him who he was going to vote for today, and he said he’d already done early voting days before, and voted for the Constitution Party candidate.
So I changed my mind about voting for Trump and voted as my husband did. I hardly gave it any thought; it just seemed the natural thing to do once I knew how he voted.
Debra, 11:30, thanks for your comment, and LOL to if your pastor had us as congregants, it would be like herding cats! 😀
Our three pastors all officiated today at the dedication of our newly-completed building project. We had built a new church in 2002, and we’ve grown so much in the last 20 years that we needed more space for both the church and the school. I think we have something like 1500 members, and Bible studies get rather lively some weeks!
A lot of people in our area are leaving the public schools for either homeschooling or parochial school, and our congregation’s school has a waiting list. I think they will be able to accommodate all those students on the list when fall comes, now that the massive expansion is completed.
Praise God!
~6
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Oops, didn’t refresh when I went to grab a snack (actually more like a meal that I sat down to), so I didn’t see your 11:36 until now, Cheryl.
I’ll read it more closely later and get back to you. I’m going to try to get some sleep now, hopefully, before tomorrow, a day I’m not particularly looking forward to. Last lessons with two of my Monday students. Still so hard for me, though saying goodbye to students has gotten a bit easier over the 40+ years I’ve been teaching piano.
Not easy enough, though, in my opinion. Sigh.
Have a good night and week.
~6
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Thanks, 6. May they be good lessons! (A girl I’ve been mentoring just left for college today . . . )
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Sleep isn’t forthcoming…
Cheryl, 11:36, quick answer, no, I wasn’t referring specifically to you with my “walked away from the heat for a time” comment. I’m not exactly sure why I worded it that way.
Typing too fast and not thinking enough, apparently.
I’m sorry. Thanks for the question.
~6
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Thanks, Cheryl. Hugs to you with your mentee leaving for college today. One of my students who’s finishing tomorrow is a student I recommended (to her parents) discontinue lessons. Only five and not working out for a variety of reasons. I shouldn’t be sad about that because I initiated that change!
Perhaps some day she’ll want to return to piano study. If so, I will likely be retired by then, but some teacher may benefit in the future from having her as a student who likely has decided for herself that she wants to learn piano.
That would be a nice ending, with positive memories to be had.
~6
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I thought I posted a reply, but it takes an extra step for me to post these days, and maybe I didn’t take that extra step. Anyway, thank you, and I hope those last lessons go well.
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6 Arrows – I do see news items from sources with varying political stances, so yes, I do see some of the more positive stories about Trump. And I have sometimes defended him against unfair or false stories. My decision about him is not based merely on the negative aspects of his personality/character.
(It may surprise many here to know that I recently re-examined my stance on not voting for him, to make sure that I was making the decision for the right – to me – reasons. One of the reasons I don’t like being dismissed as a “Never-Trumper”. There is so much more to my thinking and view than that.)
You asked DJ about her comment about Trump’s lack of focus and being easily distracted, and if she thinks that is a character issue. I can’t answer for her, but my view is that those are not particularly matters of character, but could be detrimental to someone in the important office of the presidency. They were present even before the shooting.
You are certainly right about us banging our heads against the wall, and even before I read your comment, I was deciding to let it all go. I will still probably share an article or comment now and then, but resist getting sucked into the negativity that may result.
This has probably gotten lost within all the various discussions, but often, it has not been in my own defense that I have commented, but in defense of someone else. (Coming to a person’s defense is a tendency I have occasionally had on Facebook, too.)
As for “telling on” AJ as in a feeling of superiority, I doubt that that is it, and hope it is not. For one thing, we address our comments to him directly, and what he says and what we say is out here for all to read.
For another thing, my own reasoning has been to try to urge a brother-in-Christ to be more careful of his wording and attitude. (And yes, often when the discussion goes off the rails, I am not happy with the attitude of frustration that sometimes rears up in me.) But as you said, it is like beating my head against a wall. That wall ain’t gonna move, and is hard.
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