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Wandering Views
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Praying for Jo and the pain of family.
mumsee
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Thanks, Mumsee
jo
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Praying for our newscasters. The ones who were not rejoicing seemed to get it and appeared somewhat devastated to see how completely our nation has fallen, defeated by the enemy within. Pray that they too would hold onto the Truth and continue to speak out against the evil that has overtaken our country, all with His permission as He works out His plan to make us new.
mumsee
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mumsee, either way (this downward slide has been some time in coming and is seen in multiple ways), our country is facing an even more tumultuous time going forward in this already very volatile campaign.
Praying for physical safety for all — and for a grounding in faith before politics among God’s people.
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Amen.
It has been coming for quite some time. I believe a big key was evolution, when people lost their value as human beings. We have been swimming toward the bottom ever since as people have continued to try to take the glory from God as King.
mumsee
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It’s all Adam and Eve’s fault!
More people will be seeking Jesus as things they trusted in, like a justice system and government, are crumbling.
Dividing the sheep and goats takes time and events to process.
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And while we are US (voting) citizens and clearly involved and concerned about all that’s unfolding (as we should be), we are first and foremost citizens of Heaven. That is our priority.
May we strive to love our neighbor and enemies amid what could become a deafening noise, at least for the time ahead.
I’m so grateful for that biblical grounding and a good church — without which I’d probably, who knows, be right out there with them, marching for something or other.
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I’m convinced it is that “difference” people (hopefully) see in us that may attract many who are caught up in all the chaos. * dj
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Praying alongside Jo. The pain inflicted either intentionally or not hurts. My daughter once apologized for an oversight when it happened to her by her daughter in a similar situation. It was only then did she “understand”
I don’t know about attending a biblically grounded church would prohibit “marching” for something or another. I am thankful to have walked in front of the abortion clinic in Florida…I witnessed a life saved along with the mother of that life.
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NJ, I suppose that reveals my 1970s-era mindset.
A wise woman who played quite a role in discipling me as a fledgling believer talked often about how dangerous it was for believers (there were many doing this back then) to get involved in the anti-war and other “cause” related marches and rallies, how quickly they could turn into more violent settings and pull people away, in word and behavior, from their calling as believers.
The same is occurring today, whether it’s Black Lives Matter or a Trump gathering such as we saw on Jan. 6. I anticipate perhaps some serious protest gatherings this summer. Could be either side, probably both.
I’ve always felt the wise course for believers is to stay clear of the mass, overheated gatherings.
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I agree with you, NJ. The mother and child you ministered to will see your action as very loving, while those who love abortion will see it as hateful. The world is not given the authority to judge believers. The world is unregenerate in their judgment. So people can be looking at the same action and some will see it as hateful and others will see it as loving.
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The pro-life movement (in terms of demonstrations) has stayed peaceful, much to their credit.
I don’t think a church would prohibit those activities — it’s up to us to understand our own nature and that of others who may be gathering. (in other words, “fallen”)
Quite easy for mass gatherings to spin out of control. And I suspect that’s more of what we’ll see going forward in our current environment.
Just a thought.
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And to remember that our faith (and with it the words and behaviors) come first. The world can judge the validity our faith if they see we do not love one another.
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But it’s a personal decision. March until the mood turns (then leave)?
The other movement that managed peaceful gatherings, in its early stages especially, was the one for civil rights. Again, much to their credit.
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And as an aside, a group from my church currently gathers peacefully each month at one of our abortion clinics. Not troublemakers. 🙂
But many liberal churches were swept up in some of those activities, it seemed to become a distraction from the faith, according to my church friend. And I suspect some who were at the Jan. 6 events now wish they’d have taken leave a little earlier. Angry crowds of fallen human beings, believers or not, hold an inherent danger to them.
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Looking to the world to judge the validity of your faith in any way is not scriptural. Many will see the evidence of love and know that we’re Christians. And quite often, the world will hate us for it, as Jesus said.
But as a practical matter I would not want to march with a rowdy group. You do tend to get tarred with the same brush.
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I want the world to see my faith and want it or hate it, not because of me or my actions, but because of Christ.
mumsee
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Debra – I don’t think that the world judging the validity of our faith is wholly unscriptural. The verse that comes to mind is Matthew 5:16: “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”
Another is John 13:34-35: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
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Of course your entitled to your opinion, Kizzie. I simply disagree. I think those scriptures indicate that many in the world will be able to see the love and other effects of the faith, but they don’t say or even imply that the world is in any way, shape or form judging the validity of our faith. I suspect other Christians busy themselves with judging the validity of each others faith. And in some ways, that is fair enough at least on a community or congregational level.
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And a professing Christian behaving badly, in ways contrary to Scripture, will be noticed by the world. Of course, some will always find fault even if it’s not there.
But that doesn’t excuse us when the fault is real on our part.
I look back on the early civil rights movement (which was largely rooted in the church) with admiration for its practice of nonviolence, its willingness to suffer, and its disciplined and patient resilience for a cause that was just in its day — but was to be very slow to succeed and be accepted.
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And one’s bad behavior cannot keep another who is chosen by God out of His kingdom, so our stumbles won’t impact another person’s salvation, present or future.
But I think it’s somewhat self-evident that folks will watch believers for consistency.
Our walk is noticed in both positive and negative lights.
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I think when we give the world authority to judge the validity of our faith, we become tempted in a thousand different ways to conform to the standards of the world, to the understanding of the world, and to the goals of the world. The judgment of the world is always suspect since it is not only fallen, but unrepentant. Of course people will notice our love and forgiveness toward each other, but we allow their notice of such things to be a confirmation or guide or validation only at our peril.
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Agree Debra. Christ instructs us as believers to love one another. Those knowing Him not view us sometimes with sanctimonious judgement. That does not define our faith. Many cry Lord Lord not knowing Him. I know all too many who express their consternation of believers with judgement of hypocrisy, hatred, greed, bigotry. We are not held to acquiescing to their worldly views of what “love” and “Christ likeness” looks like. That is a work of the Holy Spirit to reveal truth.
We are commanded to love one another but to be honest there are a few fellow believers I don’t like very much. I do not judge their belief and walk with the Saviour as some would. I just choose not to be around or have discourse with them.
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1 Cor 5: 9-13 says it well from our perspective.
mumsee
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Debra – Reading your comments makes me think that we each have different connotations of judging in this particular discussion. Taking a look at Dictionary .com, in this list of definitions, #5 is the one closest to how I was using the word.
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“And a professing Christian behaving badly, in ways contrary to Scripture, will be noticed by the world. …”
I’m afraid that in this ‘post-Christian’ America, fewer and fewer people actually know what it looks like to be ‘contrary to scripture’. As NJ expressed, we are not guided by the world’s misconception of love—which very often, is not at all what Christian love looks like. We will be known by a different kind of love. It’s a love that can be as tough as the whip that removed the money changers from the house of prayer. As stern as the shunning of the man living with his father’s wife—and as forgiving as the apostolic welcome when the offender came to his senses and repented. Our modern American world would not be able to recognize those actions as love.
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And I don’t mean to say that love is overly harsh. But it’s not a delicate flower; it’s a workhorse.
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Kizzie, I was thinking about the quote from the 5.29 Politics thread which I disagree with:
“Schaeffer marvels at Jesus’s words:
In the midst of the world, in the midst of our present dying culture, Jesus is giving a right to the world. Upon his authority he gives the world the right to judge whether you and I are born-again Christians on the basis of our observable love toward all Christians. . . .”
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When I fly somewhere I go standby and it is a privilege. I am always treated well by airlines staff. But I have to wait and am usually the last one on. But that gives God a chance to work. To make sure I have a good attitude because I know that He is working whether I am on the flight or not.
My daughter asked me this weekend if I would consider just paying for the flights and not dealing with the uncertainty of standby. Flights cost so much now, there is no way I would be able to pay those rates. Plus the whole experience gives me a chance to show that I can be kind, and grateful and not get upset in any way because God is in charge of my plans.
Jo
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And I guess I’m more concerned about people in the church, including myself, being among those (who) actually know what it looks like to be ‘contrary to scripture’.
Those who aren’t believers are another topic (though I still believe most have a basic understanding of Christian morals and behavior).
But I also think we may be talking past each other at bit in this thread, referring maybe to different examples in our own minds so it appears we’re disagreeing with one another when we’re probably not, when it gets down to it.
But it’s too late and I’m too tired to explain much of that.
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DJ, I’m just calling out as hogwash the idea that we should give the world authority to validate or judge our salvation as Schaeffer plainly (and incorrectly, I believe) claims Jesus does. Schaeffer may have true and useful things to say, but that was not one of them. And it was not a trivial thing, in my opinion.
It’s interesting that you think most people have a basic understanding of Christian morals and behavior. It’s a big world out there. Much bigger than our American boundaries.
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OK, now I really think we’re talking about two different things here, we’re not getting what each other is saying.
But maybe best to end this discussion.
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