49 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 2-2-18”

  1. When I saw the picture, I thought it was yesterday’s thread.
    Bjut I saw it was todays and clicked and in that instant the muskrat showed up.
    Good morning everyone!
    I haven’t changed m calendars yet.
    I was busyk doing income tax.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  5. It IS Friday!
    And I know what that means.
    Thanx Peter.
    She looked into the mirror and said, “OO me! What did I do to my face?”
    I explained what happened.
    She doesn’t remember the event.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  7. Good morning! And good night, Jo.

    We head over to see Art’s doc who gave him the knee brace in a few minutes. His knee seems healed now. Hopefully we will get in and out quickly.

    I will carry coffee with me. Then we get to go to the office. I managed to get the page turned on Art’s office calendar and now to do the rest. Everything I do at home, I get to do at the office. That includes hand washing dishes. Do I need a clone or what?

    There will now begin justification meetings for future church activities/programs in which our former church engages/engaged. Basically, anything going on that does not have the end result of creating new disciples will be let go as I understand it.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  8. Leslie’s brother posted on FB last night that he hopes she lives long enough for him to see her.
    Obviously last night I had some emotions of my own to deal with. Later I was talking to Mr P and he said Leslie was being selfish not to let her friends say good bye. I replied that no it isn’t. She is the one dying and she gets to make the rules.
    I guess at this point I just ask that she die pain free and comfortable.

    Liked by 10 people

    Reply

  9. I don’t know why the whole country bases it’s forecast on a groundhog in rural Pennsylvania. It might be cloudy there but not not the rest of the country. Also, too many people say “Six more weeks of Winter.” Well, duh. March 20th is six weeks away, so we we’ll have winter until then regardless.

    But the weather is another story.

    So, considering I drove to school with the sun in my eyes, I guess we can expect six more weeks of winter weather in the Mid-Mississippi Valley. And it started already. It was 5°F when I left for work in the dark, with a windchill of -8°F. Tomorrow a storm system moves in with a 40% chance of measurable snow (up to several inches) by Tuesday.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  10. Peter, people around here don’t put much stock in the Pa. groundhog. Ours does the forecasting and the sun is bright enough that he’s back in his hole.
    And it’s 34 degrees out there.

    Like

    Reply

  15. The groundhog saw his shadow here, also. For us, that means we will have winter weather in the spring, which will freeze the fruit trees. We have had a no moisture winter here. It was almost 70 degrees yesterday, and the day before.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  18. rkessler, who gets to decide? I don’t know a lot of children who, in the teens to early adulthood, are delighted with the way they are raised. I don’t know a lot of people who cannot find fault with how other people raise their children. Who gets to decide?

    Like

    Reply

  20. RKessler, the BBC article is accurate to what I have personally witnessed from other ATI families. My parents did not follow all of Gothard’s teaching, and paid less and less attention to the program’s rules as they began to recognize how unsound they were, so we escaped some of the damage, though the false teachings were a canker to my spiritual growth as a teen. ATI, if not a cult, was very close to one, and it sheltered and enabled abusers. Christ said we would know prophets and teachers by their fruits, and Gothard’s fruit was utterly rotten – the descriptions of II Peter 2 and Jude fit him and his sycophants:

    These are spots in you feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withers, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming out heir own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. (Jude 12-13)

    Mumsee, the BBC article is perhaps not the strongest testimony of the abuses of ATI. I could produce stronger ones. But, when it comes to ATI, it is not simply a matter of opinion, the words of Scripture testify against the program’s legalism.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  21. Kim, I really like how you said it: “She is the one dying and she gets to make the rules.”

    I read an article some months back – maybe someone here linked it – about thinking of the community around a dying person as concentric circles of closeness to that person. Your role is to support people in your circle and the next circle in, but not necessarily the dying person or their immediate family unless you’re in an inner circle close to them.

    I remember one real-life example the article cited of what not to do. A friend chastised the dying person for their behavior, saying, “This isn’t just about you, you know.” Really?

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

  22. Yep, a groundhog in a tree. Until I saw it climb that tree, I had no idea they climbed trees, but I quickly googled it and found out it isn’t unknown. It was still pretty cool to see it and get pictures.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  23. It’s unfortunate that the BBC article seems to characterize all homeschooling as being like ATI and, even worse, to link homeschooling to the Turpin family.

    Like

    Reply

  24. It is just so confusing to me. From my own experience, we ran into people raising their children differently than we did. Some were probably in that group. Others allowed their children much more freedom than we thought appropriate. I consider a good bit of what I see to be child abuse, but it is not considered that by the state. For example, I detest the idea of child stars. I consider it to be child abuse. Does that mean that a good attentive couple of parents cannot guide their child through the cesspool? I don’t know how they can but I suppose it is possible so we won’t call it child abuse though in maybe ninety five percent of the cases, it is.

    Allowing devices to children?
    Allowing children to decide they are the opposite sex?
    Allowing children to drink and do drugs?
    Allowing children to have jobs outside the home?
    Allowing children to attend public school?
    Allowing children to homeschool?
    Allowing fourteen year olds to marry?
    Allowing children to go to boarding school?
    Allowing children to travel in planes without a parent around the world?

    With billions of people, there are going to be more than a few ideas of how to raise children. Not all are good, but not all are bad. But a lot of the children will consider the way they were raised was/is wrong.

    Like

    Reply

  25. And that BBC article is a pretty tame representation of ATI, basically just showing it as families too crowded in a home. That can happen with any large, poor family, and need not be a result of ATI teaching. But specific teachings of Gothard are chilling, like what he does with a sexual abuse victim. Here is a summary. Pay particular note to the handout with the concentric circles, but there is a lot of ugliness here other than that one.

    And his tentacles are everywhere. My own parents repudiated Gothard, but most of us kids have people teaching his doctrine in our churches–and we seven live in seven different states. I wouldn’t be shocked if I heard that all seven of us were in churches with teachers, pastors, and/or elders who had sat under Gothard.

    Like

    Reply

  26. Kevin, in a way it is unfortunate, but I think the instinct of homeschoolers and homeschool supporters to circle the wagons when outsiders criticize them is part of the problem. That mindset of self defense is what allows abusers to continue to abuse, whether it is a church applauding their ‘repentant’ pastor, or the faculty at MSU who ignored the concerns of the young patients of Larry Nassar, or how the board of IBLP (of which ATI is a branch) sheltered both Bill Gothard and his brother when several accusations of abuse against both of them arose in the 1980s. Self defense is rooted in pride. Humility should acknowledge that homeschooling can shelter abusers and genuinely mourn that such abuse happens. Paul’s reproof to the Corinthian (first epistle, chapter 5, verses 1-2) church applies all to frequently to the response of homeschooling families when another homeschooling related scandal arises – just substitute the word fornication with child abuse or any of the other crimes reported: “It is reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as name among the Gentiles… and you are puffed up and have not rather mourned, that he that has done this deed might be taken away from among you.”

    The fortress mentality of homeschooling is contrary to Scripture, for we are told not to fear those that can kill the body, and contrary to actual fact. Until I was about ten, we had yearly school board inspectors visit us and look at my mother’s educational plans. Without exception, all the inspectors had nothing but praise for my mother’s teaching and the progress that my siblings and I showed – when my mother was cleaning out old files, we found and reread the letters and reports. The last inspector to come was of an obviously liberal mindset and we were at that time enrolled in ATI, but she was rather intrigued by the uniqueness of the program as we explained it to her (we were still starry eyed about it then) and had nothing to say against it. Let the criticism come. Those who have done no wrong need not fear. Those who have done wrong need to be punished.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  27. We have attempted to join homeschool groups in the past, only to learn that our children were not religious enough to attend. We have tried to join others, only to learn that our children were not worldly enough to attend. We figure it is God protecting us and move forward.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

  28. There is a lot of garbage out there and God will decide. In the mean time, each set of parents need to do what they believe is best. Caring concerned people may come alongside and may open some eyes if needed but not necessarily. Children are raised in all sorts of environments, some very dangerous, some not at all. The children grow to become adults. The ones raised in danger may or may not follow in their parent’s footsteps. Those raised in ease may or may not follow in their parent’s footsteps. That is the beauty of relationship with God, it is available to all no matter how they were raised.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  29. And I have to say that before the advent of social media, I’d never heard a bad thing about Bill Gothard. I just know when I first heard of his teachings–while still a teen–some appealed but others did not.

    Not being raised in a Christian home, indeed by a cynic towards Christianity who rewarded intellect, my brain thought something off. I just listened and ignored what didn’t “sit” right.

    But my home life allowed for that–indeed, encouraged such reasoning. Interesting, then, years later to raise non-home schooled children to respect the church but don’t accept everything carte blanche.

    Does that make sense?

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  30. Roscuro, objecting to bad reporting isn’t the same thing as circling the wagons. I do acknowledge that homeschooling can provide a cover for abuse. I do acknowledge that some homeschoolers have a fortress mentality. I don’t defend those things. I don’t object to them being reported — accurately — and I condemn them.

    My problem is with reporting that paints homeschoolers as generally characterized by those things. You say, “Let the criticism come”. I say yes, but don’t let it go unchallenged when it falls on the innocent.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  31. Raised like Michelle said. I take everything with a large grain of salt. And I understand there are others who swallow it all, and think it is the only way. I understand not wanting parents to harm their children but I also very much understand that none of us have it right. And we are not going to make it right. The more pressure for a perceived perfect society is applied, the more will squeeze out the edges and some will include harming their children. Just as some right in the center harm their children.

    Like

    Reply

  32. We had to take our children out of a private school, because it had become harmful to one of my children. About a third (teachers among us) left. A BIL and his family stayed with the church and school. It caused quite a rift. Not something we wanted.

    Long story and not a pretty one. It is not surprising that the devil works in these settings.

    Like

    Reply

  33. Absolutely. And we need to be aware of it, protect our families as we can, bring it to the attention of the church and even of the state if needed. But we need to be very careful that we are not interpreting through our own lens.

    Like

    Reply

  34. Whoops, my 11:28 meant to attach this, and I had to do some work to go find it again. I would urge people to look at it, to get just a taste of what Roscuro has talked about of the harm in this system. The concentric circles handouts is notable, and there are articles looking in detail at the harm of just that one, but all of it is ugly and breathtakingly horrid: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

    Like

    Reply

  35. One of the reasons I never went to BSF, or did only a couple of times, was because of the abbreviation. It reminded me of the initials to that other organization, Gothard’s, and I did not want to be sucked into false teaching. My loss, I suspect, but on the other hand, I do believe God protects people from what is dangerous to them. Though, clearly, not always.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  37. Paul and I just had the most delightful visit from a young couple we have know from a church we once attended. They are contemplating foster care and or adoption and wanted to pick our brains 😊 They have such caring hearts and are going into this with realistic eyes open…he is in law enforcement and her educational background has been in social work/guardian ad litem/probation areas. We are excited to see this plan of His unfold in their lives and the lives of the children unknown by us but oh so definitely known by Him…..

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

  39. Sorry, Kim. Happy for her that she is out of it.

    NancyJill, we are always delighted to see people willing to step up. A woman in our church has been foster qualified for a few months now and now has two little girls with her and her young daughter. We pray for them and are excited for the opportunity. May God be glorified.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  40. Kevin, I don’t know that the BBC article or those that I’ve read on the Turpin family do fall on the innocent. The Turpins did register a school in their home. ATI and other supposedly Christian homeschooling programs of the same ilk, such as Vision Forum, are like cults. Those are facts, and inevitably such facts will raise questions about homeschooling, questions we should not fear. There were negative news stories about homeschoolers when I grew up, and predictions that such bad press would lead to homeschooling being banned, and calls for more truth in reporting on homeschoolers, and laments that the media was biased against homeschoolers, but some two decades later, homeschooling is still legal. There are quite a few secular homeschoolers out there – in our early years, we associated with a group of homeschoolers which included Christians and non-Christians, and when I worked in elections a couple of years ago, I met a couple who were into yoga and all that sort of thing, who had homeschooled their family. So, whatever the media may say, I have found that neither my instructors nor my fellow students in college or university think anything of, or make any negative assumptions about, the fact that I was homeschooled.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  41. There is one section of ATI’s teaching in the link Cheryl put up which shows the rank heresy of the teaching. The Counseling Sexual Abuse page suggests, in point number 2, that the body is less important than the soul and spirit, and then goes on to suggest that the abuser only hurts the victim’s body which is supposed to be least important, but the victim, if they don’t forgive the abuser, will damage the spirit, which is supposed to be most important. That is the very excuse that Gnostics would make for allowing immorality, or, conversely, abusing the body through asceticism, since the body was physical, it was to them worthless (hence their denial that Jesus had come in the flesh – I John 4:2-3) and only the spirit needed to be saved through spiritual knowledge (gnosis). Not only is that kind of heretical teaching extremely unhelpful for recovering victims of abuse, it also offers an excuse to the abuser to keep abusing.

    Like

    Reply

  42. Cheryl’s link is really eye-opening. When I was in college (~1977) my best friend spoke enthusiastically about the Bill Gothard “Institute of Basic Youth Conflicts” he had attended. I got interested in attending one sometime. I was new as a Christian and had many questions, and it sounded like they offered answers.

    Now seeing examples in Cheryl’s link I’m glad I never followed through.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  46. Only late afternoon here. I will see you all in your morning.
    Spent several hours at school planning and preparing and then working on a POC program, which is orientation for new members and we send some school materials.

    Like

    Reply

Leave a reply to mumsee Cancel reply