I got this in an e-mail. Runs little over 2 minutes.
It’s a Trump commercial. But it’s great!
No matter what you think of Trump, You need to watch this.
A short commercial is at the beginning, it is not the ad.
“For those concerned about taking in Syrian refugees, please read this brief article.
~~~”1. The Paris attackers were not refugees: Assuming that the user of a fake Syrian passport found near the body of an attacker belonged to the attacker, which isn’t clear, it appears that he may have exploited the flow of people into Europe, but he was not a refugee. He did not receive refugee designation from the United Nations or vetting from intelligence agencies. He was never approved for refugee status in any country. To become a refugee in the United States, you undergo a multi-stage vetting process and only after receiving U.N. designation by trained officers in the field. The U.S. can vet refugees prior to admission, which means we can weed out terrorists and those most likely to become involved in terrorism, accepting only the most vulnerable. Europe cannot do the same. What happened in Paris is not applicable to the U.S. refugee process.
2. U.S. refugees don’t become terrorists: The history of the U.S. refugee program demonstrates that the lengthy and extensive vetting that all refugees must undergo is an effective deterrent for terrorists. Since 1980, the U.S. has invited in millions of refugees, including hundreds of thousands from the Middle East. Not one has committed an act of terrorism in the U.S. (update for those unwilling to read the source, the Boston bombers were not refugees). Traditional law enforcement and security screening processes have a proven record of handling the threat from terrorist posing as refugees.”~~~
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The other four are…
.
~~~”3. Other migration channels are easier to exploit than the U.S. refugee process.
.
4. ISIS sees Syrian refugees as traitors.
.
5. Turning away allies will make us less safe.
.
6. America should demonstrate moral courage.”~~~
I understand why so many are fearful & cautious, but it also breaks my heart to think of these poor refugees with no place to go. And I keep thinking of the Bible’s admonitions about caring for the strangers in our land. This article allayed some of my own concerns.
Those refugees could have been resettled somewhere in the Middle East rather than Europe and America. They are completely out of their element with no resources.
It’s naïve to believe that ISDIS hasn’t inserted there people in this group.
What’s disconcerting, though, is that the terrorists have actually said they will use the refugee movements as a way to infiltrate gain entry into other countries. It’s not just an imaginary suspicion it could happen, they’ve said that’s what they’ll try to do.
Ferreting out potential young jihadists with no formal records simply would not be easy, even if the vetting were very thorough (and I’m guessing it won’t be).
Difficult times but I think our compassion also needs to be tempered by a concern to protect the innocent already here as well. It’s not always as black-and-white as we wish it were.
Good piece by Kevin De Young which I posted yesterday that looks at some of those nuances and competing principles from a Christian perspective:
I don’t know how to fix the United States’ broken immigration system, and I don’t know how many Syrian or Turkish refugees should be admitted into this country. This is not to suggest that Christians shouldn’t care deeply about both of these issues. It is to admit, however, that the issues are of such a complexity that they cannot be solved by good intentions and broad appeals to Christian compassion.
Since the horrible events in France have focused the world’s attention on immediate immigration policy, let’s set aside the question of what to do with those who have entered this country illegally and think about how to handle the growing number of refugees and asylum seekers who are waiting permission to enter prosperous, Western nations like the United States.
When faced with the sight of millions of men, women, and children from war-torn lands seeking a better life—or just plain life—most Christians will voice their approval for open door policies of inclusion, hospitality, and welcome. ….
And yet, this good Christian impulse runs the risk of taking an extremely complex geo-political, international crisis and reducing it to pious platitudes about showing compassion to the least of these and not giving in to fear. As I said at the beginning, I don’t have a plan to fix our broken immigration system and I don’t know the “correct” number of Syrian refugees to welcome into the country, but I do think there is more than one way for a Christian to approach these issues. As much as I respect my evangelical brothers like Mark and Trevin, I stumble over a few of their claims and conclusions. …
… We need Christian writers, thinkers, pastors, scholars, and activists to be a part of the conversation. My plea is that the conversation reflect the complexity of the situation and goes beyond the familiar dichotomies of love versus hate, inclusion versus exclusion, and fear versus compassion. There are too many important things, and too many human lives, at stake to move quite so quickly from solid Christian principles to simple policy prescriptions.
____________________________________________
It’s a thoughtful piece on how sometimes the complexity of these civil issues require the wisdom of Solomon, though we wish it would just be much simpler than that.
It seems to me that we need to balance compassion & a concern for safety. One of the points in that article (& that I have seen elsewhere) was that the refugee screening process is tougher than for immigrants. The Boston bombers were already here, & they were not refugees (which some are saying). The 9/11 terrorists were here through immigration, not as refugees.
I also think that the screening process for immigrants should be tougher, too. But I fear that the terrorists will get in one way or another if they are determined to do so.
I’m sure we have plenty of terrorists in our midst already. 😦
From a Christian standpoint, we need compassion both for those innocent refugees (which are most of them) who find themselves without a homeland and in desperate straits — and for those innocents already under our nation’s care as U.S. citizens.
I find much of the current debate way too simplified (compassion vs. hate) to be of any help in figuring out a way forward.
But of course there’s no discussing the issue (which should not be a Dem vs. Republican one) together right now as our country is so hopelessly polarized and angry. 😦 😦
It’s also disconcerting (though not surprising considering the attacks) to see European nations going into anti-immigrant mode.
And I would add, woe to them (the terrorists) who have put all of this in motion. Their evil has a widespread ripple effect that will hurt so many innocents.
Wow. Watching that Trump ad is the closest I’ve come to considering voting for him. 🙂 I still say support for Trump is really a rebellion against Political Correctness.
I don’t have a problem with the ad. I have a huge problem with Trump the man. He has consistently given money to liberal Democrats; he is not a social conservative or a fiscal conservative. He combines ignorance and arrogance. I agree with KBells that he has the courage not to be politically correct. So does Rush Limbaugh and Rush is a conservative. However, neither Rush nor Trump are serious candidates unless we are willing to concede that we are living in an Idiocracy.
And you think we are not, Ricky? By the way, husband wants to know when Texas is seceding, and why did we not think of that when writing our State Constitution.
As someone said early on, we like Trump because he rails against the autocrats of political correctness. But would he not rule as an autocrat of another kind? I think so.
Also with regard to the immigration / refugee question, we need to remember that the government is not the church. Each has an obligation within their sphere and the civil government does have the charge of protecting its citizens. Open boarders with no restrictions potentially puts those on the other side, the resident population, at risk.
And as I’ve said before, regrettably, I have virtually no confidence in our current government at this stage to conduct anything like a thorough vetting of refugees in what now has become a very chaotic world environment.
But I also worry that a growing backlash to the terrorism & immigration in general can create knee-jerk reactions by governments and individuals that yank us in another, equally bad direction.
We have some friends in Spokane who have bought a duplex with members of their church. They’re going to sponsor two Syrian immigrant families in the duplex with the hope it’s the start of more. That means an entire church will be working with them to help–much as was done in the 1970’s with Vietnamese refugees.
One of my not-a-believer cousins worked with Vietnamese resettlements in the 1970’s. We’ll be seeing him next week and I’m curious about what he has to say concerning the experience. I’m sure he’s all for it. 🙂
I thinkMichelle said something the other day about all the young men fleeing. They are fighting ag . They need to fight to save their country not come here and expect someone else to do it.
I go back and forth on this issue but I always feel it is wise to err on the side of caution.
Why are we so concerned about the Syrian refugees? Their deity-inspired scripture (the Koran) demands that believers sacrifice to further their faith and sanctions the physical disciplining of wives, killing family members that dishonor the family, killing those leaving the faith, stoning adulterers and homosexuals, killing those that refuse to convert to Islam, and martyrdom. I’ve heard that we should accept ‘moderate-Muslims’ because they pose no threat to us, it’s only the radicalized Muslims that are committed to our destruction. Why should we accept as fact that there are moderate Muslims? They embrace the same sacred book that energizes and invigorates the radicals. How can the moderates protest against the very actions demanded by the Koran? Do they turn a blind eye to the harsh demands of the Koran and only agree with selected passages? If so, are they truly Muslims? But, since they claim to be adherents of Islam and provide financial backing to Islam, we should treat all Muslims as if they fully embrace the Koranic code. Our American Judeo-Christian culture (love your neighbor) is in direct opposition to the Koran. We should not allow any Islamic infiltration of our county – no student visas, no Muslim refugee relocation, no immigration, and no mosque building. These refugees should immigrate to other predominately Muslim countries – oh, wait, they aren’t welcome there. I wonder why not? Islam needs to go the way of the dinosaur. Instead, we should focus our efforts on those being persecuted by Muslims around the world.
I wish that Texas would secede tomorrow. Unlike any other state, Texas joined the Union (a horrible mistake) by treaty when we were an independent republic. We didn’t reserve the right to secede, but we did reserve the right to split into 5 states.
The proper way to play this card is for us to threaten to carve four tiny conservative (county size) states out of West Texas. This would produce 8 new right wing Senators while leaving the rest of the state Republican. Faced with such a threat I think liberal Yankees would be happy to get rid of us.
This is the way I think of “moderate Muslims”: A very large percentage (although shrinking in recent years) of Americans consider themselves Christian, but are so in name only – “cultural Christians”, so to speak. Same with those who consider themselves Catholic. Many Catholics in my area really don’t seem to know what their religion actually teaches.
That’s the way I’m guessing many Muslims are – merely cultural Muslims.
And many Muslims are being targeted by ISIS & other groups for not being the “right” sect of Muslim.
Muslims are not fallen angels that cannot be redeemed. They are human beings, sinners like the rest of us, no more or less. Yes, some of them hate and kill, but such murderers are found in every population. There was much sorrow when the mass murders such as Holmes in Colorado, and that shooter in the California university went on the rampage, but most seemed to accept that human nature was capable of that though not everyone would do it. But, when ISIS operatives do what amounts to the same thing (for that Korean college student killed almost as many people as were killed in Paris) the narrative becomes about how all Muslims could be capable of such deeds. They could be, but so could anyone else regardless of religious affiliation. It is a Pharisaical kind of self-righteousness which says, I thank thee Lord, that I was born in the West and became a Christian, and so I am better than the Muslims over there.
What about the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel? What about the vision in Revelation which saw people from every tribe and tongue praising God? God did not promise us security in this world. In fact, Christ said that the time would come when those who killed Christians would think that they were doing God service, which is exactly what ISIS thinks. But Christ said not to fear, though in the world we suffered tribulation, for He had overcome the world. It may seem foolish to accept those who hate us, but that is exactly what the gospel is to our practical world, foolishness. It is weakness, it is madness. It is also the only lasting reality.
Beware of making security an idol. God destroys idols.
You sound angry, Roscuro. Forgive me if I’m reading you wrong, but, IMO, your tone doesn’t befit that of a younger Christian addressing an older sister in Christ.
West Africa is where the Muslims are. Along with animists and Christians and whatever. Nobody is saying we should not take the Word to them. And I have no problem with allowing Syrian Christians in, or Afghan Christians, or Egyptian Christians, or a lot of others.
Do we open our borders to people wanting to escape the drug problems down South? Do we open our borders to everybody everywhere? What is the criteria? I have never immigrated here. My great somebody did. And I appreciate it and I appreciate that they got in. I have known many nice and interesting Muslims. Why are these nice and interesting Muslims opening their countries and homes to these young men? Why are these young men not trying to go to the countries of the nice interesting Muslims?
The concern is, if they really are Muslim and followers of Islam, it is not a religion of peace. They do not come here to assimilate. Are we willing to give up our country for them? Thereby allowing them to shut down the preaching and teaching of the Word? Don’t we have that enough in this country?
This is a good country. We have learned to use the God given resources and learned to allow people to worship God as they choose. That door is closing, I see no reason to slam it shut and knock down the house.
Yes, we are called to spread the Word. We are called to hospitality. If living in a city, should we lock our doors? After all, we are told to share our cloak with the one who demands it. Is it good stewardship of the resources God has given us to allow the thieves to take all we have? As an adoptive family, I would not think it sensible to invite a child predator into the family. Is it good stewardship of the resources God has given us as a nation, to allow others to come in and kill any and all who do not worship a false god? We can not sort them out, we do not know their hearts. But if they are claiming the Islamic belief set, we need to be very wary of turning over the nation to them.
I do not like the direction this nation is headed, but I have no reason to believe God will not let us continue on down the road to destruction. It may be in fifty years, it may be next week. I would rather we went slowly down the path rather than throw open the doors.
Phos worked very hard with the people. She has a love for them, as do I. I will point out that it is my husband’s letter to the editor, not mine. I am still sorting out exactly the same things Phos is talking about in my own mind.
Unfortunately, from a moral standpoint I think we have to consider a couple of other unpleasant facts.
1. Some of the refugees are from Iraq. What nation destroyed the government of Iraq, dissolved its military and police and created anarchy there and then left the place. Sadly, that would be the US.
2. Many other refugees are from Syria. What nation gave money and weapons to rebels in that country which led to anarchy in much of the country. Most prominent is the US.
Therefore, more than any nation, the U.S. put these poor refugees where they are. Should they have stayed and fought. Probably, but I still feel very sorry for them. I feel even sorrier when I think about how many of their children are going to be turned into perverts by popular American culture.
When we secede, Texas will take a few refugees. They can live near Odessa. The Permian Basin looks a lot like Syria and Iraq.
.” There was much sorrow when the mass murders such as Holmes in Colorado, and that shooter in the California university went on the rampage, but most seemed to accept that human nature was capable of that though not everyone would do it. But, when ISIS operatives do what amounts to the same thing (for that Korean college student killed almost as many people as were killed in Paris) the narrative becomes about how all Muslims could be capable of such deeds. They could be, but so could anyone else regardless of religious affiliation.”
Roscuro,
You’re comparing apples to hand grenades. Holmes and the like, while horrible, are lone individuals with personal axes to grind, and in most cases, with some type of mental illness.
ISIS on the other hand is an organized, (with huge support among many Muslims,) well funded, well-armed, politically driven group bent on bringing on an apocalypse, and ruling the world and forcing a barbaric religion on the masses.
What they did and will continue to do is not even comparable. While everyone may be capable of murder, the genocide they’ve inflicted on Christians and Yahdzis is an evil on par with Hitler.
While not all Muslims are terrorists, all the terrorists sure do seem to be Muslim.
What, you mean the “Arab Spring” was a bad idea? 🙄
Overthrowing dictators has not worked out well for us, or the rest of the world. Without the dictators, bad as they were, you have chaos, and the rise of ISIS.
Maybe God gave them the rulers they needed, and by thinking we (the US) knew better, we’ve totally upset the balance. Sure seems like it.
Mumsee, half of the refugees are women and about half of the refugees are children. Samaritan’s Purse just released video clips of the refugees they are helping on the island of Lesbos, Greece, and there are women and children on those boats: https://youtu.be/cDAEXpTtcT8
If assimilation means giving up the visible marks of one’s religion then the Orthodox Jews haven’t assimilated, and the Amish haven’t assimilated. As for worshipping false gods, most of the West worship false gods – there are the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, the Unitarians, the atheists and the secularists, the Jews, the pagans, the native American religions, and others. I know there are Muslim immigrants who assimilate and live within the bounds of our culture. Before I ever went to West Africa, I worked with a church who reached out to them, and I saw the assimilation. I remember sitting eating dinner with one family, and how the man talked about his research on the history of the city in which he now lived. That family are now citizens and I entertain no fears that they will radicalize. I saw the father’s love for his little daughter and his care of his disabled wife.
Here is the thing. If we actively welcome and work with these refugees, helping them to adjust to the culture, we have a good chance of helping them to assimilate. They do develop feelings at least of gratitude, and also of friendship for people who reach out to them. They are humans after all. But if we wait, and push them back, then perhaps, as you say, fifty years from now, they may not come in need but in anger. “If you love them that love you, what are you doing more than anyone else? Don’t the publicans do the same?…If your enemy hunger, give him food; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing, you will heap coals of fire on his head, and the Lord will reward you.”
“All the terrorists sure do seem to be Muslim”
Hmm, I remember hearing an awful lot about Irish terrorism growing up, and that was religiously motivated too. And there were also the Basque terrorists at that time. Then, there were horrible groups like the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda and Congo region, or Pol Pot in Cambodia. The work of the Population Council and the various governments which implemented Aid for Population Control programs have carried out far more genocide than Hitler, Stalin, and ISIS put together. No, I think that as regards terrorism or atrocities, Radical Muslims can not be said to have the monopoly.
“Two al Qaeda terrorists who had killed American soldiers were able to enter the country as refugees, according to a report released Wednesday from the House Homeland Security committee.
Waad Ramadan Alwan and Mohanad Shareef Hammadi, two Iraqi refugees settled in Bowling Green, Kentucky, after killing American soldiers, whom they bragged about having “for lunch and dinner.” In 2010, they were caught handling weapons, including included a machine gun and a missile launcher, that they planned to smuggle to insurgents in Iraq.
“I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many more than that,” said Rep. Michael McCaul (R., Texas), the chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security. “And these are trained terrorists in the art of bombmaking that are inside the United States; and quite frankly, from a homeland security perspective, that really concerns me.”
The committee’s report found that the administration’s refugee resettlement program proposal will have “a limited impact on alleviating the overall crisis but could have serious ramifications for U.S. homeland security.”
“America’s ‘enemies within’: How nearly SEVENTY have been arrested in America over ISIS plots in last 18 months – including refugees who had been given safe haven but ‘turned to terror’
Federal and local law enforcement agencies have made dozens of arrests of men and women suspected of ISIS involvement
Analysis shows that they include refugees who entered the United States as refugees”
I have known many nice Muslims, laughed with them, eaten with them, argued with them, played with their children. But I have also read the Koran. It says to lie and befriend the people so that they can be overrun. That is concerning. I do not know the heart. I like to think the people I have known were sincere, but if they are actually doing what the book says, they are pretending. It is not hard for me to believe there are many who sincerely want to be Americans and want a better life for their children. But without changing their beliefs, it won’t work. Concerning. I also know that many of the women are as devout in their religion as the men. Concerning.
Mumsee, does what their book say they should do negate what our book says that we should do?
I think of what Jeremiah told the Jews in Jerusalem to do, to go out and surrender to the Babylonians. Those who surrendered would live, those who did not would die. I’m not recounting the story to say we should surrender to ISIS; but to use it as an illustration. It was completely counterintuitive to surrender to the Babylonians. They were cruel and violent. But God made it the only way of safety. He does not do what people expect Him to do. God controls all world events, and He is ultimately using them all to build His kingdom. A kingdom of which Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against. It may seem completely counterintuitive to welcome these refugees, but that does not mean that it is. It is at least an opportunity to help in the building of that kingdom.
If your enemy hungers, give him food. That is what is happening a lot from the US. We send food all over the world, we send medicine, and we send soldiers, who often are building schools or hospitals or whatever. Not just destroying. And often the food and other help is taken by the governments and not distributed. But we keep trying. Americans are very generous people: Canadians, USA, and Mexican. Individually and corporately. So I don’t think that is the issue. Kind of like saying pro life people only care about people in the womb. Um, have you met my family? A lot of American Christians do reach out, a lot of Americans do reach out. But when a group of people believes they are responsible for bringing on their own destruction by starting a world war, so that Jesus can come back and tell them they were right, it is not necessarily in anybody’s best interest to help them do it. When a group of people believes they are responsible for bringing all people into their religion or kill them, it is not necessarily in anybody’s interest to help them. When a group of people believes everybody in their religion needs to believe exactly as they do or kill them, it is not necessarily in anybody’s interest to help them.
We are trying to help the refugees. Samaritan’s Purse and a number of other agencies are trying to focus the help so it actually does some good. By sending help to them in a way that it is actually used for them, that makes sense. I would love to offer the freedom I find in this country and all of the quality of life to the refugees. But I wonder if that is actually what is wanted.
When Californians come here, they tend to want to remake us as California. I suspect the refugees would want to remake their homeland here.
By the way, if half are women and the other half are children, that does not leave much room for men. The UN statistic says 65% are adult males.
You interjected as I was typing and I read it. And I do hope we will continue this discussion but I am up way past my bedtime. Thanks for food for thought!
Wandering Views 
I got this in an e-mail. Runs little over 2 minutes.
It’s a Trump commercial. But it’s great!
No matter what you think of Trump, You need to watch this.
A short commercial is at the beginning, it is not the ad.
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You don’t get the commercial in this one..
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Something I shared on Facebook last night…
“For those concerned about taking in Syrian refugees, please read this brief article.
~~~”1. The Paris attackers were not refugees: Assuming that the user of a fake Syrian passport found near the body of an attacker belonged to the attacker, which isn’t clear, it appears that he may have exploited the flow of people into Europe, but he was not a refugee. He did not receive refugee designation from the United Nations or vetting from intelligence agencies. He was never approved for refugee status in any country. To become a refugee in the United States, you undergo a multi-stage vetting process and only after receiving U.N. designation by trained officers in the field. The U.S. can vet refugees prior to admission, which means we can weed out terrorists and those most likely to become involved in terrorism, accepting only the most vulnerable. Europe cannot do the same. What happened in Paris is not applicable to the U.S. refugee process.
2. U.S. refugees don’t become terrorists: The history of the U.S. refugee program demonstrates that the lengthy and extensive vetting that all refugees must undergo is an effective deterrent for terrorists. Since 1980, the U.S. has invited in millions of refugees, including hundreds of thousands from the Middle East. Not one has committed an act of terrorism in the U.S. (update for those unwilling to read the source, the Boston bombers were not refugees). Traditional law enforcement and security screening processes have a proven record of handling the threat from terrorist posing as refugees.”~~~
.
The other four are…
.
~~~”3. Other migration channels are easier to exploit than the U.S. refugee process.
.
4. ISIS sees Syrian refugees as traitors.
.
5. Turning away allies will make us less safe.
.
6. America should demonstrate moral courage.”~~~
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/why-accepting-syrian-refugees-is-actually-good-for-national-security/
I understand why so many are fearful & cautious, but it also breaks my heart to think of these poor refugees with no place to go. And I keep thinking of the Bible’s admonitions about caring for the strangers in our land. This article allayed some of my own concerns.
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Those refugees could have been resettled somewhere in the Middle East rather than Europe and America. They are completely out of their element with no resources.
It’s naïve to believe that ISDIS hasn’t inserted there people in this group.
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What Chas said.
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What’s disconcerting, though, is that the terrorists have actually said they will use the refugee movements as a way to infiltrate gain entry into other countries. It’s not just an imaginary suspicion it could happen, they’ve said that’s what they’ll try to do.
Ferreting out potential young jihadists with no formal records simply would not be easy, even if the vetting were very thorough (and I’m guessing it won’t be).
Difficult times but I think our compassion also needs to be tempered by a concern to protect the innocent already here as well. It’s not always as black-and-white as we wish it were.
Good piece by Kevin De Young which I posted yesterday that looks at some of those nuances and competing principles from a Christian perspective:
http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2015/11/17/immigration-policy-must-be-based-on-more-than-an-appeal-to-compassion/
________________________________________
I don’t know how to fix the United States’ broken immigration system, and I don’t know how many Syrian or Turkish refugees should be admitted into this country. This is not to suggest that Christians shouldn’t care deeply about both of these issues. It is to admit, however, that the issues are of such a complexity that they cannot be solved by good intentions and broad appeals to Christian compassion.
Since the horrible events in France have focused the world’s attention on immediate immigration policy, let’s set aside the question of what to do with those who have entered this country illegally and think about how to handle the growing number of refugees and asylum seekers who are waiting permission to enter prosperous, Western nations like the United States.
When faced with the sight of millions of men, women, and children from war-torn lands seeking a better life—or just plain life—most Christians will voice their approval for open door policies of inclusion, hospitality, and welcome. ….
And yet, this good Christian impulse runs the risk of taking an extremely complex geo-political, international crisis and reducing it to pious platitudes about showing compassion to the least of these and not giving in to fear. As I said at the beginning, I don’t have a plan to fix our broken immigration system and I don’t know the “correct” number of Syrian refugees to welcome into the country, but I do think there is more than one way for a Christian to approach these issues. As much as I respect my evangelical brothers like Mark and Trevin, I stumble over a few of their claims and conclusions. …
… We need Christian writers, thinkers, pastors, scholars, and activists to be a part of the conversation. My plea is that the conversation reflect the complexity of the situation and goes beyond the familiar dichotomies of love versus hate, inclusion versus exclusion, and fear versus compassion. There are too many important things, and too many human lives, at stake to move quite so quickly from solid Christian principles to simple policy prescriptions.
____________________________________________
It’s a thoughtful piece on how sometimes the complexity of these civil issues require the wisdom of Solomon, though we wish it would just be much simpler than that.
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It seems to me that we need to balance compassion & a concern for safety. One of the points in that article (& that I have seen elsewhere) was that the refugee screening process is tougher than for immigrants. The Boston bombers were already here, & they were not refugees (which some are saying). The 9/11 terrorists were here through immigration, not as refugees.
I also think that the screening process for immigrants should be tougher, too. But I fear that the terrorists will get in one way or another if they are determined to do so.
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I agree with what Donna has written & shared.
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I’m sure we have plenty of terrorists in our midst already. 😦
From a Christian standpoint, we need compassion both for those innocent refugees (which are most of them) who find themselves without a homeland and in desperate straits — and for those innocents already under our nation’s care as U.S. citizens.
I find much of the current debate way too simplified (compassion vs. hate) to be of any help in figuring out a way forward.
But of course there’s no discussing the issue (which should not be a Dem vs. Republican one) together right now as our country is so hopelessly polarized and angry. 😦 😦
Sigh.
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It’s also disconcerting (though not surprising considering the attacks) to see European nations going into anti-immigrant mode.
And I would add, woe to them (the terrorists) who have put all of this in motion. Their evil has a widespread ripple effect that will hurt so many innocents.
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Wow. Watching that Trump ad is the closest I’ve come to considering voting for him. 🙂 I still say support for Trump is really a rebellion against Political Correctness.
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I don’t have a problem with the ad. I have a huge problem with Trump the man. He has consistently given money to liberal Democrats; he is not a social conservative or a fiscal conservative. He combines ignorance and arrogance. I agree with KBells that he has the courage not to be politically correct. So does Rush Limbaugh and Rush is a conservative. However, neither Rush nor Trump are serious candidates unless we are willing to concede that we are living in an Idiocracy.
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I thought the same thing, KBells.
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And you think we are not, Ricky? By the way, husband wants to know when Texas is seceding, and why did we not think of that when writing our State Constitution.
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As someone said early on, we like Trump because he rails against the autocrats of political correctness. But would he not rule as an autocrat of another kind? I think so.
Also with regard to the immigration / refugee question, we need to remember that the government is not the church. Each has an obligation within their sphere and the civil government does have the charge of protecting its citizens. Open boarders with no restrictions potentially puts those on the other side, the resident population, at risk.
And as I’ve said before, regrettably, I have virtually no confidence in our current government at this stage to conduct anything like a thorough vetting of refugees in what now has become a very chaotic world environment.
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But I also worry that a growing backlash to the terrorism & immigration in general can create knee-jerk reactions by governments and individuals that yank us in another, equally bad direction.
Much prayer needed these days.
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idiocracy. 🙂
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We have some friends in Spokane who have bought a duplex with members of their church. They’re going to sponsor two Syrian immigrant families in the duplex with the hope it’s the start of more. That means an entire church will be working with them to help–much as was done in the 1970’s with Vietnamese refugees.
One of my not-a-believer cousins worked with Vietnamese resettlements in the 1970’s. We’ll be seeing him next week and I’m curious about what he has to say concerning the experience. I’m sure he’s all for it. 🙂
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I thinkMichelle said something the other day about all the young men fleeing. They are fighting ag . They need to fight to save their country not come here and expect someone else to do it.
I go back and forth on this issue but I always feel it is wise to err on the side of caution.
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This is husband’s letter to the editor:
Why are we so concerned about the Syrian refugees? Their deity-inspired scripture (the Koran) demands that believers sacrifice to further their faith and sanctions the physical disciplining of wives, killing family members that dishonor the family, killing those leaving the faith, stoning adulterers and homosexuals, killing those that refuse to convert to Islam, and martyrdom. I’ve heard that we should accept ‘moderate-Muslims’ because they pose no threat to us, it’s only the radicalized Muslims that are committed to our destruction. Why should we accept as fact that there are moderate Muslims? They embrace the same sacred book that energizes and invigorates the radicals. How can the moderates protest against the very actions demanded by the Koran? Do they turn a blind eye to the harsh demands of the Koran and only agree with selected passages? If so, are they truly Muslims? But, since they claim to be adherents of Islam and provide financial backing to Islam, we should treat all Muslims as if they fully embrace the Koranic code. Our American Judeo-Christian culture (love your neighbor) is in direct opposition to the Koran. We should not allow any Islamic infiltration of our county – no student visas, no Muslim refugee relocation, no immigration, and no mosque building. These refugees should immigrate to other predominately Muslim countries – oh, wait, they aren’t welcome there. I wonder why not? Islam needs to go the way of the dinosaur. Instead, we should focus our efforts on those being persecuted by Muslims around the world.
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I wish that Texas would secede tomorrow. Unlike any other state, Texas joined the Union (a horrible mistake) by treaty when we were an independent republic. We didn’t reserve the right to secede, but we did reserve the right to split into 5 states.
The proper way to play this card is for us to threaten to carve four tiny conservative (county size) states out of West Texas. This would produce 8 new right wing Senators while leaving the rest of the state Republican. Faced with such a threat I think liberal Yankees would be happy to get rid of us.
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Don’t know if you have seen this one:
http://qpolitical.com/someone-said-muslims-bad-woman-delivers-amazing-response/
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you made husband laugh happily, Ricky, thanks.
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This is the way I think of “moderate Muslims”: A very large percentage (although shrinking in recent years) of Americans consider themselves Christian, but are so in name only – “cultural Christians”, so to speak. Same with those who consider themselves Catholic. Many Catholics in my area really don’t seem to know what their religion actually teaches.
That’s the way I’m guessing many Muslims are – merely cultural Muslims.
And many Muslims are being targeted by ISIS & other groups for not being the “right” sect of Muslim.
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This is the sort of moronic US behavior to which Cruz was referring the other day in that quote that we discussed.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/even-amid-paris-carnage-u.s.-ties-own-hands-in-isis-fight/article/2576488
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Mumsee, did I waste my time in West Africa?
Muslims are not fallen angels that cannot be redeemed. They are human beings, sinners like the rest of us, no more or less. Yes, some of them hate and kill, but such murderers are found in every population. There was much sorrow when the mass murders such as Holmes in Colorado, and that shooter in the California university went on the rampage, but most seemed to accept that human nature was capable of that though not everyone would do it. But, when ISIS operatives do what amounts to the same thing (for that Korean college student killed almost as many people as were killed in Paris) the narrative becomes about how all Muslims could be capable of such deeds. They could be, but so could anyone else regardless of religious affiliation. It is a Pharisaical kind of self-righteousness which says, I thank thee Lord, that I was born in the West and became a Christian, and so I am better than the Muslims over there.
What about the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel? What about the vision in Revelation which saw people from every tribe and tongue praising God? God did not promise us security in this world. In fact, Christ said that the time would come when those who killed Christians would think that they were doing God service, which is exactly what ISIS thinks. But Christ said not to fear, though in the world we suffered tribulation, for He had overcome the world. It may seem foolish to accept those who hate us, but that is exactly what the gospel is to our practical world, foolishness. It is weakness, it is madness. It is also the only lasting reality.
Beware of making security an idol. God destroys idols.
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You sound angry, Roscuro. Forgive me if I’m reading you wrong, but, IMO, your tone doesn’t befit that of a younger Christian addressing an older sister in Christ.
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West Africa is where the Muslims are. Along with animists and Christians and whatever. Nobody is saying we should not take the Word to them. And I have no problem with allowing Syrian Christians in, or Afghan Christians, or Egyptian Christians, or a lot of others.
Do we open our borders to people wanting to escape the drug problems down South? Do we open our borders to everybody everywhere? What is the criteria? I have never immigrated here. My great somebody did. And I appreciate it and I appreciate that they got in. I have known many nice and interesting Muslims. Why are these nice and interesting Muslims opening their countries and homes to these young men? Why are these young men not trying to go to the countries of the nice interesting Muslims?
The concern is, if they really are Muslim and followers of Islam, it is not a religion of peace. They do not come here to assimilate. Are we willing to give up our country for them? Thereby allowing them to shut down the preaching and teaching of the Word? Don’t we have that enough in this country?
This is a good country. We have learned to use the God given resources and learned to allow people to worship God as they choose. That door is closing, I see no reason to slam it shut and knock down the house.
Yes, we are called to spread the Word. We are called to hospitality. If living in a city, should we lock our doors? After all, we are told to share our cloak with the one who demands it. Is it good stewardship of the resources God has given us to allow the thieves to take all we have? As an adoptive family, I would not think it sensible to invite a child predator into the family. Is it good stewardship of the resources God has given us as a nation, to allow others to come in and kill any and all who do not worship a false god? We can not sort them out, we do not know their hearts. But if they are claiming the Islamic belief set, we need to be very wary of turning over the nation to them.
I do not like the direction this nation is headed, but I have no reason to believe God will not let us continue on down the road to destruction. It may be in fifty years, it may be next week. I would rather we went slowly down the path rather than throw open the doors.
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Six Arrows, we are good, but thanks.
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Phos worked very hard with the people. She has a love for them, as do I. I will point out that it is my husband’s letter to the editor, not mine. I am still sorting out exactly the same things Phos is talking about in my own mind.
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Thanks, Mumsee. And I know you have a deep love for your children. A mother’s love is very protective.
Well said post at 9:46, as well.
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I think Mumsee made a number of good arguments.
Unfortunately, from a moral standpoint I think we have to consider a couple of other unpleasant facts.
1. Some of the refugees are from Iraq. What nation destroyed the government of Iraq, dissolved its military and police and created anarchy there and then left the place. Sadly, that would be the US.
2. Many other refugees are from Syria. What nation gave money and weapons to rebels in that country which led to anarchy in much of the country. Most prominent is the US.
Therefore, more than any nation, the U.S. put these poor refugees where they are. Should they have stayed and fought. Probably, but I still feel very sorry for them. I feel even sorrier when I think about how many of their children are going to be turned into perverts by popular American culture.
When we secede, Texas will take a few refugees. They can live near Odessa. The Permian Basin looks a lot like Syria and Iraq.
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.” There was much sorrow when the mass murders such as Holmes in Colorado, and that shooter in the California university went on the rampage, but most seemed to accept that human nature was capable of that though not everyone would do it. But, when ISIS operatives do what amounts to the same thing (for that Korean college student killed almost as many people as were killed in Paris) the narrative becomes about how all Muslims could be capable of such deeds. They could be, but so could anyone else regardless of religious affiliation.”
Roscuro,
You’re comparing apples to hand grenades. Holmes and the like, while horrible, are lone individuals with personal axes to grind, and in most cases, with some type of mental illness.
ISIS on the other hand is an organized, (with huge support among many Muslims,) well funded, well-armed, politically driven group bent on bringing on an apocalypse, and ruling the world and forcing a barbaric religion on the masses.
What they did and will continue to do is not even comparable. While everyone may be capable of murder, the genocide they’ve inflicted on Christians and Yahdzis is an evil on par with Hitler.
While not all Muslims are terrorists, all the terrorists sure do seem to be Muslim.
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Ricky,
What, you mean the “Arab Spring” was a bad idea? 🙄
Overthrowing dictators has not worked out well for us, or the rest of the world. Without the dictators, bad as they were, you have chaos, and the rise of ISIS.
Maybe God gave them the rulers they needed, and by thinking we (the US) knew better, we’ve totally upset the balance. Sure seems like it.
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Mumsee, half of the refugees are women and about half of the refugees are children. Samaritan’s Purse just released video clips of the refugees they are helping on the island of Lesbos, Greece, and there are women and children on those boats: https://youtu.be/cDAEXpTtcT8
If assimilation means giving up the visible marks of one’s religion then the Orthodox Jews haven’t assimilated, and the Amish haven’t assimilated. As for worshipping false gods, most of the West worship false gods – there are the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, the Unitarians, the atheists and the secularists, the Jews, the pagans, the native American religions, and others. I know there are Muslim immigrants who assimilate and live within the bounds of our culture. Before I ever went to West Africa, I worked with a church who reached out to them, and I saw the assimilation. I remember sitting eating dinner with one family, and how the man talked about his research on the history of the city in which he now lived. That family are now citizens and I entertain no fears that they will radicalize. I saw the father’s love for his little daughter and his care of his disabled wife.
Here is the thing. If we actively welcome and work with these refugees, helping them to adjust to the culture, we have a good chance of helping them to assimilate. They do develop feelings at least of gratitude, and also of friendship for people who reach out to them. They are humans after all. But if we wait, and push them back, then perhaps, as you say, fifty years from now, they may not come in need but in anger. “If you love them that love you, what are you doing more than anyone else? Don’t the publicans do the same?…If your enemy hunger, give him food; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing, you will heap coals of fire on his head, and the Lord will reward you.”
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“All the terrorists sure do seem to be Muslim”
Hmm, I remember hearing an awful lot about Irish terrorism growing up, and that was religiously motivated too. And there were also the Basque terrorists at that time. Then, there were horrible groups like the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda and Congo region, or Pol Pot in Cambodia. The work of the Population Council and the various governments which implemented Aid for Population Control programs have carried out far more genocide than Hitler, Stalin, and ISIS put together. No, I think that as regards terrorism or atrocities, Radical Muslims can not be said to have the monopoly.
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This is what they call “carefully vetted”?
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/report-al-qaeda-terrorists-entered-united-states-through-refugee-program/
“Two al Qaeda terrorists who had killed American soldiers were able to enter the country as refugees, according to a report released Wednesday from the House Homeland Security committee.
Waad Ramadan Alwan and Mohanad Shareef Hammadi, two Iraqi refugees settled in Bowling Green, Kentucky, after killing American soldiers, whom they bragged about having “for lunch and dinner.” In 2010, they were caught handling weapons, including included a machine gun and a missile launcher, that they planned to smuggle to insurgents in Iraq.
“I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many more than that,” said Rep. Michael McCaul (R., Texas), the chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security. “And these are trained terrorists in the art of bombmaking that are inside the United States; and quite frankly, from a homeland security perspective, that really concerns me.”
The committee’s report found that the administration’s refugee resettlement program proposal will have “a limited impact on alleviating the overall crisis but could have serious ramifications for U.S. homeland security.”
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70 arrests in the last 18 months, including refugees.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3322649/The-enemy-Nearly-SEVENTY-arrested-America-ISIS-plots-include-refugees-given-safe-haven-turned-terror.html
“America’s ‘enemies within’: How nearly SEVENTY have been arrested in America over ISIS plots in last 18 months – including refugees who had been given safe haven but ‘turned to terror’
Federal and local law enforcement agencies have made dozens of arrests of men and women suspected of ISIS involvement
Analysis shows that they include refugees who entered the United States as refugees”
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I have known many nice Muslims, laughed with them, eaten with them, argued with them, played with their children. But I have also read the Koran. It says to lie and befriend the people so that they can be overrun. That is concerning. I do not know the heart. I like to think the people I have known were sincere, but if they are actually doing what the book says, they are pretending. It is not hard for me to believe there are many who sincerely want to be Americans and want a better life for their children. But without changing their beliefs, it won’t work. Concerning. I also know that many of the women are as devout in their religion as the men. Concerning.
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Mumsee, does what their book say they should do negate what our book says that we should do?
I think of what Jeremiah told the Jews in Jerusalem to do, to go out and surrender to the Babylonians. Those who surrendered would live, those who did not would die. I’m not recounting the story to say we should surrender to ISIS; but to use it as an illustration. It was completely counterintuitive to surrender to the Babylonians. They were cruel and violent. But God made it the only way of safety. He does not do what people expect Him to do. God controls all world events, and He is ultimately using them all to build His kingdom. A kingdom of which Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against. It may seem completely counterintuitive to welcome these refugees, but that does not mean that it is. It is at least an opportunity to help in the building of that kingdom.
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If your enemy hungers, give him food. That is what is happening a lot from the US. We send food all over the world, we send medicine, and we send soldiers, who often are building schools or hospitals or whatever. Not just destroying. And often the food and other help is taken by the governments and not distributed. But we keep trying. Americans are very generous people: Canadians, USA, and Mexican. Individually and corporately. So I don’t think that is the issue. Kind of like saying pro life people only care about people in the womb. Um, have you met my family? A lot of American Christians do reach out, a lot of Americans do reach out. But when a group of people believes they are responsible for bringing on their own destruction by starting a world war, so that Jesus can come back and tell them they were right, it is not necessarily in anybody’s best interest to help them do it. When a group of people believes they are responsible for bringing all people into their religion or kill them, it is not necessarily in anybody’s interest to help them. When a group of people believes everybody in their religion needs to believe exactly as they do or kill them, it is not necessarily in anybody’s interest to help them.
We are trying to help the refugees. Samaritan’s Purse and a number of other agencies are trying to focus the help so it actually does some good. By sending help to them in a way that it is actually used for them, that makes sense. I would love to offer the freedom I find in this country and all of the quality of life to the refugees. But I wonder if that is actually what is wanted.
When Californians come here, they tend to want to remake us as California. I suspect the refugees would want to remake their homeland here.
By the way, if half are women and the other half are children, that does not leave much room for men. The UN statistic says 65% are adult males.
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You interjected as I was typing and I read it. And I do hope we will continue this discussion but I am up way past my bedtime. Thanks for food for thought!
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Refugees from California only want you to be happier — to discover the joys of flip flops and dog sweaters and singing with earbuds
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