91 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 11-17-15”

  3. Hey there, fellow wanderers.
    Becca’s sleeping late this morning. Scott just left to drive Lindsey to school. She normally rides the bus (which comes at 6:15!!!), but Scott takes her a couple times a week so she can sleep a little later.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  5. Checking in this morning. Lulabelle was awake for a while this morning. She jangled her collar and chewed on a bone. I finally got back to sleep just in time for the alarm to go off.
    Today I am meeting the receptionist from work for lunch so I kicked it up a notch on dressing this morning. I can’t let myself go to seed you know.
    Janice, I understand you are dealing with a lot lately. If the window would go up on the Xterra and it didn’t need the oil changed, I would come to Atlanta to be with you. I think I would love to run away from home and worry about someone else’s problems for a while.
    6Arrows, you asked an interesting question last night. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts and what others have to say.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

  6. I’m layered after another cold night (I’m still resisting turning on the heater, and I need to clean out the filter first before I use it anyway). I’m wearing two layers of pants (lightweight pair under a heavy pair of sweat pants), sheepskin moccasins and 3 top layers (T-shirt, turtleneck & heavy hooded pullover sweatshirt).

    I’d like to box up some of that cast iron cookware I never use & bag some clothes for a trip to the Salvation Army today. But Carol really wants me to take her to Venice to buy that Christmas gift I told her I’d get for her this year — I keep trying to tell her it’ll be more fun to do that once Christmas is closer, at least we should wait until December. And selfishly, I’ll admit, this is my final day off this week, I really don’t particularly want to spend it driving all over and being stuck in a lot of workday traffic … Maybe I can take her on Saturday …

    Sometimes she’s kind of like a kid, you tell them you’ll do something and then you never hear the end of it until it’s done. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  7. Good morning! Love that pileated woodpecker at the top of the page! I’ve heard pileateds lately, but have not seen any yet. When I make homemade suet and get it set out again, they’ll come back. (Or she — I’ve never seen a male pileated yet. I did see a juvenile once, though, but usually just an adult female.)

    OK, the Debi Pearl bit I started last night… I looked back into her Created to be his Help Meet book a few weeks ago — first time in a long time after having read it twice a number of years ago, and, boy, were there some things in there that incensed me.

    Then yesterday I came across a blog where the woman who owns it started a book review, chapter by chapter, I’m assuming, of the book. She is very pro-Debi Pearl.

    Here’s the link to the discussion of the book’s first chapter: http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2015/11/gods-gift-to-man-chapter-one.html#idc-container

    Debi Pearl, and it looks like this blogger, too, from my perusal of a few other places on her blog, appear to take a “you will submit” approach to nearly anything a husband may ask a wife. (Unless it’s illegal or immoral.)

    So I ask you: what is your understanding of Biblical submission? If a husband is micromanaging his wife, telling her how she should or shouldn’t dress, who she can or can’t associate with, what she should or shouldn’t do regarding home and outside pursuits, etc., is a wife out of line (in sin) to express her individuality in ways her husband doesn’t like?

    For example, if Cheryl’s husband told her she couldn’t take photos of wildlife anymore, or my husband told me that I couldn’t play the piano anymore (he didn’t, just for the record), because those things take time away from keeping the house clean, and meals on the table, and, in my case, homeschooling the kids… would it be wrong for us women to say, “I want to use the gifts God has given me, and I will continue to do so.” Or something like that.

    I don’t believe it is wrong to appeal to our husbands, and if they deny our requests, I don’t believe it’s necessarily out of line to go ahead with our plans anyway.(Depending on the circumstances, of course.)

    Pearl and this blogger would probably label me an unsubmissive, marriage-destroying woman.

    I can’t see that enabling a power-hungry husband, or an emotionally destructive one, or you name it, is a wife’s calling. Those women say we are called to obey, no matter how much of a jerk our husbands are.

    There. The can of worms is open. 🙂 Thoughts? Scriptures? Thanks, all.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  10. My mom had wonderful cast iron pans (they went to my cousin) — but I’ve found them heavy, very hard to maintain with the regular seasoning required and, well, kind of a pain overall just to use and wash.

    I suspect I’m leaning back to a simpler stainless era again, pots and pans that easily go into the dishwasher and don’t need to be babied. 🙂

    Like

    Reply

  11. I love the nonstick pans to use, but they’re also temperamental (although I bought one of those “as seen on tv” ceramic pans a year ago or so at the drug store — and the stone ones also look good and not too expensive). But the coated pans last maybe a year (with heavy use) before I have to toss them. They’re cheap though, and cleanup is surely easy with those.

    Like

    Reply

  12. I should mention that the thing I read a few weeks ago when I looked back at the book — the part that incensed me so much — was that in one chapter, Pearl was talking about a movie she’d seen where the wife was demanding, mean-spirited, I don’t remember what all she reported about that character, but the gist of it was that her attitude and behavior caused her husband to fantasize about a life with another woman, a bigger family, a home (or farm, I think it was) with this lovely (fantasy) woman and children.

    Pearl went on to say there were too many real-life cases of that. She also mentioned how many cases of men there were married to women like that who went on to look at pornography.

    It was clear she linked the man’s sins to his wife’s shortcomings (sins), like it was her sin that caused him to sin.

    Then in a subsequent chapter, she went on to rail about women who are not content, who dream of having another life with another man when their man isn’t perfect, and how sinful and odious that attitude is in women.

    So women’s sin is their own fault (true), but a husband’s sin of fantasizing is…the woman’s fault, too.

    I’d never noticed that inconsistency before in my other readings of the book, but apparently she knows nothing about James 1:14 — “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.”

    That “it’s always the woman’s fault” attitude, and her often harsh tone, not to mention her erroneous theology, is very hard for me to stomach.

    She has some good points in her book, but I shudder to think of how blindly I proceeded through that book the other times I read it.

    And now we’ve got an older woman who is blogging about it, and singing the praises of this “Titus 2 mentor” who is so derogatory and off in her “leading.”

    Like

    Reply

  15. That pileated woodpecker shot is a “Finally!” after three years of near misses. It isn’t the world’s best photo, but it’s a recognizable, decently clear shot. (Technically it’s the branch in front of her that is in focus, not the bird, but she isn’t “out of focus” and you don’t see it unless you zoom in.)

    But there have been so many near misses. Like the time I had my older camera with me, and we watched a pileated for some time, but it was too far back in the trees to get it with that camera (not with this one) and more importantly I had just used up the last of my camera battery! (After that I got a second battery so I could always have a charged one in my bag.) Another time one landed on a tree just a few feet from us, wonderful view, but it stayed about a second and a half. We’ve had one fly pretty close to us, land on a tree right next to the car but run around to the other side of the tree as soon as my husband stopped the car, and so on. We’ve seen the bird as many as a dozen times since I’ve been trying to get a photo of it, and the only photo I had was one where I knew the pileated woodpecker was in that general vicinity, because I saw it on a tree, and when I saw red on the ground, I zoomed my lens out and got a photo, and pulling it up on the computer later I saw I had the bird, but nothing like a good shot. (It was with my old camera, that wasn’t clear on a long zoom and didn’t zoom near as much as this one.)

    But finally we had this bird fly in. We’d seen one fly earlier, had heard their calls and their hammering quite a bit, and we’d seen a decent amount of bird activity, all of those together telling me we were fairly likely to get a decent sighting of the bird at some point that day. As we were leaving, she flew onto a tree ahead of us, and I found the tree in the camera quickly enough; I got two quick shots and then zoomed in a little more, but by that time she had moved up with this branch between us. I got this one more shot–the best of the three–and then she flew. My husband saw where she landed, and I was trying to spot her again (she was farther away) when I heard laughter behind me, looked at the original tree, and saw where her mate had landed on the original tree. But he flew just as I spotted him, so I told my husband, “Here comes the mate” and he flew and landed briefly on the same tree where she was, but then they both flew. So both of us saw both birds perched and flying, and I got a decent photo.

    For those familiar with the ivory-billed woodpecker (which was our largest woodpecker, but is now extinct), this is basically a smaller version of it, but it’s a huge bird. (About the size of a crow, 16 1/2″ long.) When it pecks with its massive bill on a tree, it really sounds like someone hammering. They eat mostly carpenter ants, and the holes they makes in trees are squarish, rectangular, rather than round. But because they are so big, they have very large territories, and it’s impossible to know with any reliability where you will see them, unless you know where the nest is when they have young.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  16. We are with Connor Matthew and his sisters this week while their mom is at the fire academy for a HazMat class. 2 hour delay for the bus, so we had sausage, eggs, hash browns, french toast, and hot tea. The girls were happy. Now doing daily oral reading while waiting.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  17. I believe cast iron, stainless steel, and glass, as in Corning Ware are suppose to be healthiest for cooking. I use my original Revere Ware with the copper bottoms and I have some Corning Ware smaller pans, and pots for cooking on the small scale. I have gotten rid of most of my nonstick pans. I have a few stainless large pots that are not Revere Ware. I use to use an aluminum pot for making popcorn, but I got rid of it. I retained one cast iron skillet, the small size so it is not too heavy. It needs to be seasoned.

    Like

    Reply

  18. I don’t fry much, but we do make bacon and eggs on the weekends. My cast iron works great for it. I think my main problem with non stick pans is that I don’t like plastic spatulas. I have a metal one that I have used for 33 years. Nothing turns eggs or pancakes better.

    My main problem with the Pearls is that it devalues communication between husband and wife. Also, a roll in the sheets does not solve all marital conflict.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

  19. From what I have read here, the Pearl advice seems very warped. I have never known anyone who followed that kind of thinking. That is partly because I am in a more liberal area where even the conservative churches tend to be less conservative than those in distant areas.

    Like

    Reply

  20. Yesterday when I said I had no one to be at the hospital with me, it’s mostly because people like my friend Karen need me to transport them and I don’t want to deal with that when I don’t know how long and what if. My friends at church are in their 80s and have health issues so I have the same problem. After talking with my brother I just cried thinking I would have to transport him, too. It just shouldn’t have to be this hard. But it is. The dear lady who sat with me before is in FL right now. She is in my husband’s church. We worked together in church before and are friends since Wesley was young.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  21. Loved the Revere Ware, I don’t think they make it anymore — my mom had a few pieces and loved it as well. Glad I bought it way back when, I am still using it. And it’s all so cute with the chunky handles and copper bottoms, very classic looking. 🙂

    But yeah, you wonder what’s really in the coatings they put on those non-stick pans … Better than before when it was a new concept, I’m sure, but still seems unnatural to some degree.

    Janice, praying you’ll have some good company tomorrow — how long is the surgery? Either way, been there – done that, the hospital waits, and it really does help to have someone to hang out with, to help relieve some of the boredom and anxiety.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  22. Revere ware for the oatmeal this morning, wish I had cast iron for my veggies and eggs. I got rid of mine when we were moving all of the time as it was too heavy. Bad decision.

    Like

    Reply

  23. Cast iron is good for bacon and eggs, I agree.

    And while I have the softer utensils, I think you’re probably right about the metal turners being the easiest to use.

    Still remember one of my roommates — when she first moved in, I already was living in the apartment, just going through a roommate switch — had just gotten a brand new set of the nonstick pans as a gift.

    She was obsessive about them, laying down the law to me early that you NEVER – EVER use metal on them, wash them very gently, you had to treat them with kid gloves.

    I never used them, of course, they were hers and I had my own tougher pans I was used to using. But I still remember how she treasured them. 🙂

    Like

    Reply

  25. I have a combination of Saladmaster, cast iron, and stuff Mr. P brought.
    http://www.saladmaster.com/index.nws

    My dad bought a set of Saladmaster for me when I graduated from college. G and I had been to a Saladmaster Dinner and the next day I had buyer’s remorse. He told me not to cancel the order, he would pay for it. There went the Tanzinite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzanite
    ring I really wanted. The Saladmaster has probably lasted longer than jewelry would have. I also have a Saladmaster pot that belonged to my grandmother as my dad was growing up. She would turn a pot upside down in a chair and use it for a booster seat. I try not to think about how many hinies have been on a pot I am cooking in. 😉

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  26. Wow 6 Arrows, I don’t even know where to start with what you wrote. I am going to bite my tongue for a little while and see what others have to say. I will say it borders on emotional abuse to my way of thinking.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  32. I do not believe in allowing anyone to continue in sin, if it is in my power to help them out of it. That includes my husband. I am to help him in his walk with the Lord. Therefore, if he is acting or saying things that are unscriptural, I have every responsibility to push back, respectfully. I expect him to be mutually respectful. That includes listening to me and considering, in prayer, what my concerns are.

    If both are growing together, every little thing should not be a big issue. Those rare things that cannot be mutually agreed upon are the stickler. I do not believe there is a one-size fits all for all of those cases.

    Thank God, He gives us His Spirit to help us. He also gave us the bible and a multitude of counselors. I would not listen to just one ‘counselor’.

    I would certainly not think that my husband’s use of pornography or other sin is MY fault. I do note what Paul said about our bodies belonging to one another. What we do affects each other, in that area as long as all other areas. Allowing a man to whine, “My woman made me do it,” is not helpful, however, IMO.

    Women need to remember they are not children. They are also not single. The two become one. Prayer and grace towards one another are necessities.

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

  33. I have some of the pans given to me at my wedding. I seldom use them, since I do have newer ones. I like the nonstick ones. I have a lot of plastic spatulas, since my husband is the chief breakfast maker and seems to be rough on them. We also need pans with totally flat bottoms.
    My canner works, but very inefficiently, since the bottom is not flat. I don’t can now, though, except for sealing syrup or jelly.

    We have one cast iron griddle saved for camping, which is usually loaned to one of the adult children. I got rid of one cast iron frying pan, which I regret. I did not understand the seasoning of that pan and the danger of over-washing it.

    I did get some of the glass cookware, but they have been long gone. The pans broke way too easily.

    I recently used the waffle iron my mom used. I believe she got it for her wedding. This year she would have celebrated her 66th anniversary had my dad lived one more month. The waffle iron worked like a charm. Of course, it is not nonstick. It is well seasoned, however.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  35. Might as well do it Saturday, I won’t hear the end of her continually asking if I can take her ____ (fill in the blank with every weekend or vacation day I have until then). 🙂 I’ll try to get an early start, maybe we can scoot up there quickly (I like how I always try to make it sound so easy psychologically, but with the distance and traffic it just won’t be 🙂 ).

    OK, you all have convinced me to keep the cast iron … for now. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  36. I would add to my thoughts above: If my husband objected to my doing something I would certainly consider HIS reasoning. I would pray about it and give it a lot of thought. It is not difficult to see if you really are neglecting more important things or if your priorities are messed up. However, if there is a double standard, that is another matter.

    An example: Early in our marriage husband and I were discussing a purchase of costly (for our budget) item for me. He stated he was for it if it was not going to just sit unused. I pointed out that I wasn’t sure how often I would use it, but certainly as much as he used his _____. Point taken. I bought the item and did end up using it far more. He got a check on how he viewed our spending. We all need that at various times.

    A wise person once told us that everyone needs a little mad money, so put it in the budget when possible. That is, have some money that each spouse can use without accounting for in a household budget. I would think everyone also needs some time to use for their own enjoyment and development of talents. Sometimes, those even grow into businesses that ultimately benefit the whole family. I have seen that more than once.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  37. Our new hot water heater is being installed. Lots of noise that neither I or Miss Bosley have heard before. They have extra things that must now be installed due to government regulations. Good old government, nanny goat.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  38. I like cast iron for lots of things, especially meat.

    That woman blaming the wife for the man’s sins is off base. yeah, the man may be tempted to sin because of something thew wife does or doesn’t do, but only the man is responsible for his sin.

    Like

    Reply

  41. Noise here, too, neighbor has some van parked out front connected to a loud, gigantic hose doing something inside the house … But it’s certainly no worse than the chain saws they had to put up with at my place all weekend. :-$

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  42. Thanks for all the comments regarding my posts today. Very good thoughts shared so far. I’ve got some more thoughts on the subject, but will share them a little later.

    In the meanwhile, for those who are interested, I thought this was a good (and fair) analysis, by Tim Challies, of the Created… book. The review is in two parts, with the link to the second part at the bottom of this page I’m linking.

    http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/created-to-be-his-help-meet

    Like

    Reply

  43. BTW, Cheryl, I didn’t mean to imply by my mention of you and your husband in my 10:01 post that I think your husband is a “power-hungry, emotionally destructive…” whatever I said, husband!

    Yikes — stream-of-consciousness typing when hurried doesn’t turn out very well sometimes!

    Like

    Reply

  44. Well, that was quick work! Now the water has to heat for a bit so I will know it was done properly. The guy has been with the company for 13 years so I guess he knows what he is doing. Miss Bosley let him pet her. I guess that is worth something.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  45. On my blog, several days ago, I wrote something about plans and how there were diametrically opposed plans in Paris on the day of the terror strikes. At one point I made mention that probably most at the scenes of the attacks were probably not believers. Sadly my CA friend said it sounded like I was saying the people were evil, just as the terrorists did. I did not mean for it to sound that way at all. It was not what I needed to hear today. She said I should not judge people like that. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Like

    Reply

  48. 6 Arrows, the Pearls scare me. I have not read Created, partly because I honestly didn’t want to be influenced by it until I had some years of marriage under my belt and partly because I wanted to make sure I wouldn’t give (though my husband agrees with me that it would now be useful for me to read it if I got hold of a free copy).

    BTW, given the question of “What if my husband commanded me not to shoot nature photos?” obviously I think that such a blanket prohibition would be wrong. But I don’t think I could simply disregard him and do it anyway. I think I could appeal to his reason, and I also could appeal to the church (he is an elder, and I would take such a situation to the elders even if he were not). But in the meantime, I think I would have to submit and obey him.

    Long before I married, a relative who is heavily influenced by the Pearls had this conversation with me, word for word as nearly as I remember it:

    Her: What about if you get married someday, if your husband commanded you not to write books?
    Me: I wouldn’t marry such a man.
    Her: But what if he said that in marrying him, your purpose is to serve him, not to write?
    Me: My purpose is to glorify God, whether I’m married or single.
    Her: Well, yes, but what if he thought that your writing was getting in the way of you being a good wife?
    Me: I would look to see what responsibilities I was failing to meet.
    Her: But what if he insisted you had to stop writing?
    Me: I wouldn’t knowingly marry such a man. He would know who I was when he married me. If he did such a thing, at some point it might be proper to report him to the church.
    Her (showing on her face obvious shock at such an idea, then moving on): Well, what if he said that you could continue to write, but you had to use a pseudonym?
    Me: I’d try to tell him the reasons I’d rather write under my own name, but if he insisted, then yes, I could do that.
    Her: What if he told you that you had to write under his name, because you represent him?
    Me: You mean write as “Cheryl Doe”? Of course I’d do that. Since I already have books published, I might publish as Cheryl D—— Doe, but yes, I would use his name as my name.
    Her: No, what if he insisted that you write as John Doe, using his name?
    Me: No, that would be dishonest. He didn’t write the book.
    Her: But you represent him, and you just said that you would use a pseudonym if he asked you to. But you wouldn’t use his name? Wow. How’s that different?
    Me: For one thing, if I ever used a pseudonym, I wouldn’t use a male name–that would be passing myself off as a man, and I think that’s dishonest, or at least I wouldn’t feel comfortable with it.
    Her: But we’re talking about using your husband’s name, and you represent him. Why wouldn’t you do that if you might use a pseudonym?
    Me: Because a pseudonym is simply using a false name to be anonymous, and using his name is saying he wrote the book–but he didn’t.
    Her: But he did–he wrote it through you, because you represent him.
    Me: So, if he’s writing up his resume, can he include the books I wrote on his resume?
    (She had no answer to this, because obviously when it comes down to it, the obvious answer is “No, that would be dishonest.”)

    By the way, before we married, my husband brought up the subject of my writing name, and told me he understood that I already have a somewhat known name, and would probably want to keep it in, as a middle name, and I told him that is what I figured I’d do. But it was nice to have him volunteer it, to think about it and tell me that he respected my writing enough that I could still have some version of my “known” name out there. Personally, I’ve never been comfortable with Elisabeth Elliot continuing to publish using her first husband’s name after she’d remarried and then married a third time. She should have published as Elisabeth Elliot Gren. I appreciate that Joni Eareckson added the “Tada” at the end, and sometimes seems to have just published as Joni Tada, once people knew who that was. But the idea that a wife cannot do anything that doesn’t directly reflect her husband doesn’t seem more godly–and my husband doesn’t agree with it.

    Like

    Reply

  49. Just to comment on Michelle’s statement yesterday on church music, that she would prefer to play on the balcony. That is exactly what English church musicians and choir (sometimes called a quire) did in the period from about 1700 and 1850. The genre they created is called West Gallery music and it influenced the shape-note singing of early American churches. I discovered a couple of albums which revived the style. This first favorite by Charles Wesley is from the album Sing Lustily and with Good Courage (a quote from John Wesley) by Maddy Prior and the Carnival Band:

    Like

    Reply

  50. Cheryl, do you want my copy of the book? I was thinking of throwing it out. I could just ship it to you, and you can read it and do with it what you like. 🙂

    Shoot me an email with your mailing address, if you’re interested.

    Like

    Reply

  51. I reread this part last night from that book, and it’s another troublesome area, IMO.

    It doesn’t seem fair that the wife is expected to honor and obey her husband even though he has not earned the right; yet she must also earn the right to be loved… You cannot command your husband to love you, and you have no right to expect him to love you when you are unlovely. But God gave us ladies some keys to the avenues of a man’s heart. God made it so that we can actually manipulate him into fulfilling his God-ordained duty. His very nature is made to respond to us if we will only treat him with reverence.

    [Bold print mine.]

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  52. How is that like Jesus? That we have to earn the right to be loved by our husbands, who are to love their wives as Christ loves His bride?

    Like

    Reply

  53. When I was in my early twenties, the Pearls did a series on the evils of the patriarchal movement which helped us to see how wrong IBLP/ATI/Bill Gothard had been. I have read Created to Be His Helpmeet. At the time, I thought it was fine, since it was more liberal (shall we say) than what I was accustomed to at the time; but I was uncomfortable with one little point. It was something better not discussed on a public blog, but as I read more of the Pearls’ I began to feel it was very unsound doctrinally. Michael Pearl has some very strange ideas regarding salvation and the kingdom of God; and I have concluded it is wiser to steer clear of their material.

    Janice, on your observation that most were probably not believers, you are probably correct. Christians are always the minority; as Christ said of the narrow way, “few there be that find it.” That is the tragedy of any disaster, accident, attack, or war, that so many who die will go into eternity without Christ. It is also the tragedy of the single unbelieving individuals who drop dead of a heart attack or die in their sleep. It is the tragedy of the Kurdish fighter who dies in a firefight with ISIS and of the Muslim refugee who drowns while trying to cross the Mediterranean. As Christ said of the people who died when the tower of Siloam fell, “Do you think that these were greater sinners than others?… No, I say to you, that unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1-5) We who have that hope have so many to share it with. I sometimes wonder, if I ever faced a suicide bomber, should I jump on him, like that Lebanese man did; because I have no fear of eternity through Christ and I would spare others who did not know Christ. I don’t know, but I remember Jude’s words: “Of some, have compassion, making a difference, and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire.” (vs.22-23) Christ’s fierce meekness and compassionate courage should be our own.

    This is another West Gallery hymn by Charles Wesley, one that I never heard before, from the album Paradise Found by the same musicians:

    Like

    Reply

  56. I think a wife should love, honor and obey her husband.
    She should anticipate and cater to his every whim.
    Keep herself looking like Shannon Bream
    Never fuss at him.
    Always do what hi says without argument.;-)

    😆

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  57. LOL, Chas, if every woman had an easy-going husband like you. 😉

    Thanks, Janice, I’ll look at your link in a bit.

    Roscuro, yes, the Pearl’s have spoken out a lot on patriarchy, and the problems with that (when applied in an unbiblical manner — patriarchy, of course, having different definitions, depending on who’s using the word). I agree with them there.

    They’ve also written about examples of older women (and maybe men, too, I don’t remember) being bossy and telling their adult unmarried sons (like 30-somethings, in one example they noted) that they needed to obey her wishes for their lives as adults, and that it was dishonorable to their parents not to. The Pearls rightly recognized this as unbiblical, that men are not expected to obey their mothers when their wishes are not aligned with hers. (Neither are adult women, they understand, despite what some in the patriarchy movement espouse — unmarried daughters always and forever submitting to their fathers.)

    So they get some things right. It’s too bad so much of their theology is wrong.

    Like

    Reply

  58. 1 Peter 3:1-6 is often quoted when discussing women’s submission to their husbands. My understanding from this passage (and the “submission” passages in Ephesians and Colossians, I think) has for a long time been that wives are to submit to their husbands in whatever they say, as long as it is “unto the Lord,” which I believe means “as long as the husband is not asking her to submit to something unlawful, immoral, unethical, or anything that is unacceptable in God’s eyes.

    I’ll admit that, in reading more about women in emotionally abusive marriages, I’ve come across different definitions of what submission means, and many of those women say that considering those traditional passages of scripture gives a faulty view of what truly biblical submission is.

    That the 1 Peter, Ephesians and Colossians passages are not the full counsel of scripture, and looking only at those gives an incomplete, and therefore, distorted and erroneous view of the broader subject.

    But I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a Bible study on what *is* the full counsel of scripture regarding submission.

    What does submission look like in the details of life for women in different situations? Is the application of such different for the woman in an emotionally destructive marriage, compared to one in a marriage that is not?

    It seems one is not able to ask that without being accused of being insensitive. Listening, without commenting, seems the best approach, because I don’t fully know anyone’s circumstances, but how does it apply to me and my marriage? If the women in emotionally destructive marriages are all saying the same thing, that a wife is not expected biblically to submit to a micromanaging, nitpicking husband, is the same true for me in my normal marriage?

    Doesn’t the Bible say the same thing to all of us, no matter what our situations are?

    Additional thoughts?

    Like

    Reply

  59. The Bible does indeed tell wives to respect their husbands & submit to them. But it doesn’t say that we can’t respectfully argue our case with them. And the Bible has a lot to say about husbands loving their wives, as their own bodies, & that a man’s prayers will be hindered if he is not considerate of his wife.

    The word “manipulate” certainly has a bad connotation. My dear friend Marilyn (wife of our former pastor from several years ago) used to talk of how we can manipulate our husbands for good or ill. In other words, we can use manipulation to get our own way, or we can use our influence, & our understanding of how our husbands think, to help them, & help them understand our views.

    I have heard it said that God gave husbands the power of authority, which can be used for the good of the marriage & family, or can be misused in an abusive manner. And He gave wives the power of influence, which can be used to help her husband, or can be misused as manipulation.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  60. Sorry 6 Arrows. I didn’t see your last comment until after I posted the above. I’ll have to get back to this interesting conversation later.

    Like

    Reply

  61. I’m also thinking about the marriage vows, pledging to love “in sickness and in health.” (Does anyone say those anymore?)

    Where does emotional health fit into this?

    If my emotional health is greatly enhanced through a certain activity (for example, I am prone to seasonal affective disorder from about October through March or so, and struggle with depressive tendencies then, but am greatly helped by making music during that time — it soothes me, and gives me energy to do needed acts of service for my family, so that I’m not in a crumpled, depressive heap all winter), would I be out of bounds to do what picks me up and helps me be a better wife and mother if my husband says, no, I don’t want you spending time doing that?

    If a woman has a husband like that, who thumbs his nose at her emotional health, does she have no recourse but prayer, and maybe taking it to church leadership?

    Emotional issues seem to be so…I don’t know what the word is. It seems to me that most of the talk on submission at all costs does not take into consideration the murky area of people’s emotions, an intangible quality.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  63. 6 Arrows, the word used for submission in the NT means the voluntary yielding of an equal. In other words, wives submit voluntarily not because they are less than men, but because they are men’s equals. In order for to equals to function together, there must be some give and take. The mistake that most of these patriarchal types make is to assume that women are somehow an offshoot of men, rather than an equal creation. Thus, they subordinate women as somehow gaining worth only through the agency of the man, twisting Paul’s words in I Corinthians 11 and I Timothy 2 to support their position. The reality is that the Creation account in Genesis 1 emphasizes that both men and women were created in the image of God, and the Genesis 2 account, which gives more detail, calls woman a helper fit for man. The animals were not the equal of man, but woman was. It has been pointed out by others that the word helper, ezer, is the same that God uses to describe Himself, so it is not the idea of a servant or sidekick to faithfully serve the master, but rather of a powerful friend who walks alongside.

    The phrase in I Peter 3, “even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord”, rather than a call for women to obey their Lords, seems to refer to a specific incident in the life of Abraham and Sarah, in which Sarah obeyed an urgent request of Abraham’s and referred to him as her Lord. This incident may be found in Genesis 18:1-15, and the request was that Sarah hurry and bake cakes for the three visitors who had just come, and the reference to Abraham as “My Lord” was when Sarah laughed to think she could have a son. If Sarah’s entire life is to be an example to wives, then they must also look at the time she gave advice to Abraham to take Hagar, and also when God told Abraham to listen to Sarah and send Hagar and Ishmael away. The teachers of unquestioning submission of the wife would have a difficult time with those passages.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  65. We just got our internet back….don’t know how long it will be up…trying to catch up. Paul says there is 2 ft of snow out there…he has been trying to clear the drive all day…he has gotten 2/3rds of it cleared….that last part is a bear…drifting down at the end of the drive by the road…about 4 ft deep…and the plows have yet to come through….they will just shove another 4 ft of snow to block the drive! I just shoveled three feet of snow off of the deck….poor Lulah was bonked on the head by a falling clump of snow from one of the pines….she was an all white dog and stunned! She actually looked at me today when I called her Lulah….yay!!!
    Cast iron….Iove cast iron….my Grandfather, great uncle and uncle all worked at Wagner Ware in Sidney Ohio…I have lots of Wagner Ware….a roast isn’t a roast unless it is roasted in cast iron…just sayin’!! 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  67. OK then.

    Went out to lunch with a friend, it’s gorgeous outside today, clear blue skies and it’s warming up again. I had some errands to run before and after lunch, so those are done now — bought dog food and me food and picked up a few things at the pharmacy.

    Like

    Reply

  69. Submit to one another means that both parties love each other as Christ loved the church. That means we give our lives for one another. That said, the husband is priest in the home and does have more say than the wife.

    Like

    Reply

  70. No, they don’t have the food Miss Oakley likes at the plain-jane chain pet store. 🙄

    I have to get that from Amazon or the pet food outlet a few miles away. She’ll live, we have enough to get us through another few weeks.

    Like

    Reply

  71. I had quite the exciting afternoon and had my heart stopped and started again. Well not like Art but it was exciting for me I went into a condo with an ADT alarm. I had the code but must not have punched the numbers hard enough. I called ADT told them who I was and what happened. I gave them my real estate license number if they wanted to check. I kept the lady on the phone until I was out of the unit. The police were waiting in the parking lot. I told them they must be looking for me. They got my license. I told them what happened. All’s well that ends well.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

  72. Peter, I’m not convinced in context that “submit to one another” is talking about husbands and wives at all. It’s talking to believers submitting to one another, and then, wives, you submit to your husbands.

    I know that Voddie Bacchum and others talk about the husband being priest of the home . . . but I’ve never seen any Scripture for that assertion. Do you have backing for that term?

    Like

    Reply

  73. I have always understood submitting to your husband shouldn’t be awful and demanding. I have understood that a husband loves his wife in such a way that he wants what is best for her and makes her happy and submission isn’t a war. Of course neither party is a door mat either.
    I think Kathaleena had a great example in pointing out how she wanted something different equally to how her husband had wanted something. That was an example explaining her desire and he understood and together they came to an agreement.
    Today I called my husband to tell him how much the necessary repairs to my truck would be. He misunderstood and thought I had already had the repairs made. He said he thought we were going to discuss it and take it somewhere else. Nope. That’s not what I did. I only had my oil changed and my tires rotated. $30. It was Ladies Day.

    I do not think I would fit in well in a patriarchal marriage. I appreciate and love my husband and I do things that I know makes him happy, but I wouldn’t like him telling me the way things were going to be. He brings more money into the home than I do so when I am working and he goes to a movie I send him off with a smile. (I grimace later because he gets to go the movie and I don’t). I have “mad money” that I can spend any old way I please and so does he. Our names are on all three bank accounts but one we pay household expenses out of and one is his and one is mine. Tomorrow we will be meeting with a life insurance agent. I need to change the beneficiary on my insurance and we need to get life insurance on him to pay off this house if something happens. I wasn’t married to him for 7 years while he was active duty so if something happens to him I am back to supporting myself 100%. I am not looking to be a rich old widow, but I would like a roof over my head. We are on the pay down the principle plan of mortgage payments.
    I really need a newer vehicle but I just can’t bring myself to do it. The XTerra is a 2006 and has 150K rough miles on it. It is close to needing new tires ($900) and about $500 worth of repairs but $1,400 is less than buying something else. I can make it one more year don’t you think?

    Like

    Reply

  74. Thanks for the link, Janice. If you haven’t already, I think if you explain to your CA friend what you said in your 2:46 and 2:52 posts above, that you didn’t intend it the way she understood it, that should help clarify.

    I’m not a blogger, but perhaps adding the same clarification to your Day 33 post might be helpful, too, in case other readers misunderstand your intent. That way there’s less chance of your having to re-explain.

    Or if you don’t feel your original (misunderstood) comment was central to the point of your post, you might consider taking down that part of the post.

    Just some random thoughts. The Lord knows your heart, whether others understand or misunderstand your intentions.

    Blessings to you. (Praying for you and Art tonight, also.)

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  76. Success.

    Convinced Carol to let me order her bag online, although had to spend a bit more for quick shipping as she still had her heart set on getting it Saturday. But this way I can just bring the bag to her, wrapped, and we can skip the drive to Venice (which is always a madhouse, and parking is almost impossible there).

    She texted me, “I’m so happy, thank you for the early Christmas gift.” Kind of dragged that one out of me by force, but oh well.

    😉

    “You’re welcome,” I said.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  78. I can find scripture references that say that all Christians are a holy and royal priesthood (I Peter 2:5, 9) and that Christ is our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14); I cannot find anything that says that the husband is the priest of the home. Yes, the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, but that does not then mean that the husband holds the role of priest because Christ holds that role. That would be to take the analogy too far. The role of a priest is to intercede for others to God, as Christ does for us to the Father, and as we, in Christ, can do in our prayers for others. If the husband were the priest of the home, that would mean that his wife and children’s access to God would be through him, which contradicts what Paul said about there being no male or female in Christ. Every believer has equal access.

    Marriage, as important and beautiful a picture as it is, will only exist until the Second Coming. Those who were married upon earth will have no such relationship in the Resurrection, and therefore, the woman must needs have access to God only through Christ, for she will have no husband to plead for her before the Judgement seat. I have mentioned before that Islam holds that a woman’s chances of paradise lie in her husband, and every woman needs to marry in order to have a husband to pray for her. As I have said, Islam is what Christianity would be without Christ. It was a powerful challenge and testimony to the Muslims we lived among, that so many single women who prayed directly to God in Jesus’ name were on the team. As a single Christian woman, I know that I have access to God, not through a husband or father (for in the usual way of things, I will probably outlive my father and if he were my intercessor then where would I be) but through the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and thus I can call myself a child of God (Romans 8:15). That access and position would not change in any way were I to marry. My husband would only be my husband in this life, but my relationship to God through Christ is eternal.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  79. Roscuro, that is my take as well.

    I once had a married woman (when I was single) tell me that her husband was her mediator. I don’t remember whether I said it aloud, but my thought was “In that case, I’m better off as a single woman, since my Mediator is perfect.”

    We can’t look to our spouses to be our saviors, whether that is a wife looking to her husband as mediator or a husband looking to his wife to save him from his sexual temptations. For four years now I’ve known the blessings of a good marriage. But if marriage put a mediator between myself and Jesus, no matter how good the man I would stay single.

    Like

    Reply

  81. It’s too bad so many people misunderstand the biblical roles of husband & wife. As already mentioned, husbands & wives are equal in the sight of God, & a wife’s submission is given willingly.

    I consider myself a submissive wife. But believe me, I certainly do voice my opinions to my husband very clearly, but respectfully.

    Kathaleena mentioned not allowing (or “enabling”) our husbands to continue in sin. There was a time when my husband had a sinful attitude towards me that was very hurtful. For many years I thought that my not saying anything about, not fighting back, was being submissive. God helped me to realize that I was enabling him to continue in that sinful mindset.

    So I firmly, but gently & respectfully, put my foot down, so to speak. I told him that from now on, when he treated me that way, I was going to speak up about it. My doing so, along with the work of the Holy Spirit (which was the most important aspect, of course), helped him move out of that attitude.

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

  82. 6 Arrows – I don’t think you’ve gotten a specific answer to your questions from your 4:51 comment (about a wife’s emotional health). That is a tough one. Did my last two paragraphs above help at all? To me, I had to take that stand for my own emotional health.

    Another option, if the husband will not listen to his wife’s concerns in that area, would be to ask him to talk to the pastor (or a counselor, or mutual friend) together. I know many husbands would balk at that, so maybe the wife could seek that help for herself.

    I’ve also heard it said that a wife in a situation like that should continue to submit to her husband’s wishes, & take it to God, resting & trusting in Him. One of my friends has had a bad marriage to a very difficult man, but she has striven to be submissive & prayerful. Her husband is now finally seeking God earnestly, & the two of them are growing closer to each other than they’ve been in a long time.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  84. Karen, yes, your 9:27 was helpful. Thanks. I think I’ve asked so many questions today, I’ve lost track of which ones were and weren’t answered. 😉

    Enabling was on my mind, too, when I first posted today. I think communication with our husbands is important, because they’re not mind readers, and we can’t expect them to be. They may be doing something that is quite hurtful to us and not have a clue. Respectfully “cluing them in” 😉 can help them realize what they don’t understand, and bring an end to our enabling of the behavior through our silence.

    Not that I don’t believe the 1 Peter passage that talks about wives, without a word, winning our husbands through our conduct. Absolutely that can be the case.

    But not always. There is a place for speaking the truth in love to our husbands, too, like we would to anyone else when needed. Submission does not exclude us from having those kinds of conversations.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  85. I should say that my husband and I have had some difficult conversations in the past, and in the most recent one, several weeks ago, I was not so submissive like I usually am. (Not according to many people’s definition of submission.)

    And, believe it or not, our relationship has been MUCH improved. (I did tell him a couple things I’d been holding in for a long while, and God used that to strengthen our marriage.)

    There is always hope, and praying and communicating are so very important.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  86. rkessler – I just happen to have copied what Adios wrote about marriage a while back. I saved it in an email to myself to share with someone else, & I still have it. Here it is…

    “I am not sure I have time for chapter and verse, but I’ll nutshell it for you. God created male and female in His image. Both are created in his image. If we took the time to do an exegesis of the beginning of Genesis it shows that when it was not good for man to be alone God pulled the woman out of the man. Thus the physical, emotional, spiritual “one flesh” when a husband and wife are joined together. And we can easily see that God has a feminine side seen in passages of scripture. But God reveals Himself primarily as Father for very important reasons.

    So men and women are equal, but different. Remember Euclid’s axiom: if two things are equal to the same thing they are equal to each other. Men and women are both equal to the image of God and thus equal. The same holds true for slaves and masters, Jews and Greeks, etc. A good translation of ‘helpmeet’ is ‘corresponds.’ That word help sometimes makes people interpret that as lesser than, but the Hebrew word is ‘ezer,” which is used a whole bunch of times in the OT with God helping Israel. So we could make a case for humility or servanthood, but not subservience.

    Men and women tend to have similar traits to each other. Men are hardwired to provide and protect. Attributes we see in God. Women are hardwired to care and nurture. Also attributes we see in God. In the husband and wife role I think it is not only Biblical, but natural for men to take the lead. I often explain to young married women, that while dating there was this wining and dining period, so to speak, once a man gets married his provide and protect boosters are fired up. This doubles after a baby comes on the scene. So while we may immediately want daddy to change diapers and coo like we do over the new babe, he wants to go out and conquer the world for us. And this is really what we want and need in the long run. One problem with our modern society is we try and make men into women and women into men. I have seen stay at home husbands work, but they do it in a very manly way. And stay at home mothering is much more fitting to our hardwiring.

    Now for that S word. Because men are physically bigger than women, women get their selfish way most by manipulation. Men by intimidation. Though I have seen men manipulate and women intimidate. I think that is why St. Paul says “wives submit yourselves to your own husbands.” And “Husband love your wives.” They are both acts of submission–expressions of the cross–but the shade of difference is found in our gender tendencies. What Paul makes very clear is that these are choices we must make ourselves. The will is of very important in the book of Ephesians. Whenever a person has no choice in their freewill, evil ensues. When women are forced to submit they aren’t submitting at all and the consequence is the loss of identity. God has granted us a freewill. To take away someone’s ability to freely choose is to play God. That is not the idea of Biblical submission. There is a great power in submission whether it is freely chosen by a wife to a husband, by a man to his boss or Christ to His Father on the cross.”

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  87. I’m glad you saved that post of Adios’s, Karen. It was well said. The last paragraph was excellent, and was some of what has swirled around in my head on submission, but I could never have said it so well.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  88. Adios did say what I think much better than I could have written it.

    Art has his tome to be there moved to 8 a.m. Surgery maybe around 11 a.m. At least we now have hot water for showers

    I am having a problem with one eye. It might be a sty. I hope it improves by tomorrow morning.

    Like

    Reply

  89. Re: husband as priest- I am going off a a sermon I heard years ago in saying that. I cannot remember the sermon or the reference used. It may have been an interpretation of one or two verses such as 1 Corinthians 11:3 “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God” and the similar reference to the man as “head of the wife” in Ephesians 5. Or in the description in 1 Timothy of the deacon managing his own house well. But as I said, it was years ago.

    Like

    Reply

Leave a reply to jmiller761 Cancel reply