Good Morning!
Today’s photos are from Cheryl.
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On this day in 1579 Sir Francis Drake claimed San Francisco Bay for England.
In 1837 Charles Goodyear received his first patent for a process that made rubber easier to work with.
In 932 the Senate defeated the bonus bill as 10,000 veterans massed around the Capitol.
And in 1963 the U.S. Supreme Court banned the required reading of the Lord’s prayer and Bible in public schools.
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Quote of the Day
“The Church knew what the psalmist knew: Music praises God. Music is well or better able to praise Him than the building of the church and all its decoration; it is the Church’s greatest ornament.”
Igor Stravinsky
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Today is Igor’s birthday.
And it’s Barry’s too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IiLsZP2cjus
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Wandering Views 
Good Morning Everyone. Today’s bird looks like he got up on the wrong side of the nest. I sort of did myself. Mr P slept last night. He has the sinus crud I had. Not only did he snore, he honked. I finally went to the sofa about 3am. At 4 I turned on the TV and snoozed to Ancient Aliens. I can’t explain my fascination with the show except to say that the same people who say there is no God will accept that ancient aliens populated the earth and have been visiting us doing experiments ever since. It was just dreadful when the alarm went off at 6.
As I was getting dressed, I started thinking about holding grudges. Chances are, if you have ever snubbed me or hurt my feelings in any way I remember it. I have also probably forgiven you, unless it was a long term pattern of hurting me. Then I got to thinking about people who had extended kindness to me along the way. I have a real soft spot for them. I thought of one man I know who crossed my path in December of 2007 when my life started the downhill swirl that was 2008. He came back to where I was, explained that he picked random people every Christmas and handed me a hundred dollar bill. I can’t explain the difference it made. I still see him monthly at the commercial brokers exchange meeting. I used to tell him he was my favorite man left on earth. I will always have a soft spot for him.
All that led me to the the following poem floating through my head.
‘Flowers Leave Their Fragrance on the Hand That Bestows Them’
There’s an old Chinese proverb
that, if practised each day,
Would change the whole world
in a simple way
It’s truth is so simple,
it’s so easy to do,
And it works every time
and successfully too
For you can’t do a kindness
without a reward,
Not in silver nor gold
but in joy from the Lord
You can’t light a candle
to show others the way
Without feeling the warmth
of that bright little ray
And you can’t pluck a rose,
all fragrant with dew,
Without part of it’s fragrance
remaining with you…
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I think Michelle mentioned this song in her Elisabeth Elliott post, it’s a good reminder for all of us so I will share it today.
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That’s a great poem, Kim!
Cheryl’s photos are always beautiful!
I posted very late on yesterday’s thread. I fell asleep before I pushed the post key and woke around 2 a.m. and sent it then. Y’all had a lot to discuss yesterday.
Another addition to the communion discussion. For a very short while some years back, I was seeing what online church was all about. I did do one communion with that online church. It was done with others, but not physically. It seemed pretty strange to me although in many ways it was handled properly with an ordained pastor presiding, but I had never”served” myself. I had prepared communion in the past for the whole church so the prep for one seemed odd, too.
I think people can worship anywhere and at anytime. But a worship service has a more defined set of parameters. It’s the ‘service’ part that indicates that at least some people have specific roles to provide for specific needs of the group gathered. Each person gathered has the basic role of worshipping God according to the program, formally or informally. A worship service should be orderly and not chaotic. It needs a definite sense of reverence and awe.
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Do all churches pretty much do a shut down of programs for the month of July? That seems to be how it is here in my general area. Sunday morning church is about all that is done. I don’t understand the shutting down of prayer group…as if prayers are not necessary for a month. Jesus made the statement about “house of prayer” and He did not qualify it with certain times of the year.
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I’m not ordained, but I served communion for a church once when I supplied for someone.
It was the first Sunday of the month and they always have the Lord’s Supper on the first Sunday. So. I did it.
I’m and ordained deacon. It isn’t the same.
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Janice,
My Nashville church had a weekly prayer meeting I always attended, and afterward my best friend and I stayed and talked for an hour. Every few weeks we’d go out to eat and talk more than an hour, and sometimes one of us would want to get some groceries at the end of that hour, and the other would go with her. As someone who lived alone and worked from home, that weekly time was my lifeline.
The summer my husband and I were courting, my church decided to suspend prayer meeting and the weekly Bible study for the summer. (The weekly Bible study wasn’t a big deal to me; it was new, and I missed more than I was present, since I got sick and missed a few weeks right when it was starting up, and then I missed a bunch more when my husband and I were courting.) Since we were courting, talking for at least an hour ever day and seeing each other for several days every three weeks, I wasn’t lonely that summer, but I was so glad that I was heading toward marriage. If they had decided to suspend for the summer in the days when I was single, it truly would have been devastating to me. We had a group of about six people (not all there every week; eight was the most who were ever present) who were regular, and others who came occasionally, and we’d talk for half an hour or so and then pray for another half hour, and then my friend and I had our hour. I needed that time of praying with others, but I also simply needed that face-to-face time. I had neighbors with whom I was close, including a couple I walked with daily when they were home–but they traveled for a living and were sometimes gone for weeks at a time. I tried some volunteer things (such as driving seniors to the doctor), but they didn’t call me very often. I was at the bare minimum of people contact for sanity. I thrived in Nashville, loved it, but at the same time I really felt like Gos sustained me, because it really was a minimal amount of people contact. (I had housemates sometimes, but would only keep one about a year and then it would be a year or two before I managed to get another, and they were always about 25.) My church really felt like family, and was very important in my life.
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Chas, did you question at the time if you should be serving it? I don’t know all the reasons that would make it “right” or”wrong”.
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My daylilies are finally blooming. I thought they were not blooming this year. They seem late. This is a scorcher week, so I hope that new grass can survive. Already some patches look dead.
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Janice, I didn’t think to question it.
I’m sure it didn’t matter. It surely doesn’t now.
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That BTW, was the reason for my post.
It didn’t matter then. Still doesn’t.
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Today’s photos are all from Chattanooga. I took the free shuttle to the aquarium and then walked around the riverfront, and all of those were taken then. The blue jay kept flying from the tree to the ground (out of sight) and I was frustrated with inability to get his photo in the lovely tree. And then finally he stayed in one spot long enough I could zoom in and get several photos. And that’s when I saw he was wet–there must have been some water source beneath the tree, and it was quite warm. (Other birds were panting.) He groomed himself and I took his picture. I like the “wet dog” clumpy, disheveled look in this one.
The flower photos (for those of you not in the South) are magnolia and mimosa. Both bloom in June, and as we were preparing for the trip I was looking forward to getting mimosa shots since I’d never photographed them. (They are really hard to photograph, since they are so “airy” the camera has a hard time focusing.) I’d also never gotten a good magnolia shot–the flowers are so high above one’s head, most of the time, that it’s nearly impossible to find an open blossom that can be shot from ground level. Magnolia are a bit of an emblem of the South, but mimosa are imported and, while beautiful, often considered a nuisance. I uprooted baby plants from my yard all summer when I lived in Nashville, and spent the first couple of years cutting small leafed branches off the saplings the previous owners had allowed to grow, removing their leaves to kill them since they were too big for me to uproot–and one of them was at the very foundation of my home. But I think the flowers are gorgeous, and mimosa along a creek make for a very pretty sight.
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In this part of the country you find a radio preacher on the radio wherever you go. About every third station is a preacher.
Years ago, before I got a cell phone, I was driving in northwest SC, going to Greenwood. I was listening to a preacher. He was having a call-in debate. The subject was the proper way to be baptized. The issue: Should it be in the “name of Jesus” Acts 8:10, or “in the name of thej Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Matt 28:18.
It’s hard to believe, but there were callers debating the issue. I didn’t have a cell phone, but I wanted to call and ask, “What happens if you’re baptized the wrong way?”
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I’ve shut down my Bible study for the summer. I’ll be traveling in July and I thought the same of August–though having looked at airline prices, I’m probably staying home in August, now. Rather than make them work around me as well as their schedules, we start up again Sept 1.
Maybe I’ll have my life figured out by then . . . Ha!
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Kare’s question from yesterday’s thread:
Question: how are we to treat unbelievers?
With the love of Christ but not with the expectations we have of other believers. When we see another believer in error or sin, we might talk with them about it, even confront them as needed. Unbelievers do not have the same standard and will go about doing whatever is right in their own eyes. We are to love them and respect them as image bearers, not to hang with them to the point they are pulling us from Christ’s standard. They will not know Christ if there are none to show and tell them.
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We had a mimosa tree in our yard when I was growing up. I always thought it was a bit magical if a tree could be described that way. Or maybe fancy is a better word for it.
It’s already 87 here. Too warm outside unless we get a good breeze. I am glad I already have things cooked for today so I don’t have to heat up the house more.
My brother is having a very difficult time with his work. I am sad he is being treated so badly.
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Michelle, shutting down Bible Study for the summer is ok, IMO. But I think group prayer is still very important. Does anyone have a local prayer group outside of their own church?
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I agree with what Mumsee said about the unbelievers. I would add that some unbelievers can be treated as seekers and others are blatantly opposed to hearing any more about Jesus. You have to be discerning about when opportune moments are given by God for sharing.
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Last Little League game last night. I am glad I took the time to drive to it as it was over an hour away.
VBS again this morning. yester day went much better, thanks for praying. Please continue to pray for my energy and that I will show the love of Christ.
Last day in this house. Packing and deciding where everything goes. Took all my winter clothes over to store at a friends yesterday. Couldn’t get my ice chest full of clothes up to the top shelf, so put it down, Picked up a suitcase that was there to put on top of it. It was heavy and I opened it up and discovered it was mine!! I had no idea I had left that there. Found a couple of sweet memories.
Driving 1 1/2 hours to the airport this afternoon to pick up my daughter and her youngest.
Feeling busy….
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Karen, I just wanted to stop in to assure that the reason I didn’t respond yesterday is because I’m swamped with work right now, NOT because I thought you were “being argumentative.” As to your comment, you could be right but I do think there’s merit in taking the “two or three gathered in my name” verse in context. Blessings.
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Mimosa — isn’t that a popular alcoholic breakfast buffet drink? I only hear it discussed in that context, at any rate, by the good old guys at the dog park. 🙂 I had to ask them what it was once, they kept talking about “free mimosa” somewhere.
Yep, just looked it up: A Mimosa is a cocktail composed of one part champagne and one part chilled citrus fruit juice, usually orange juice unless otherwise specified.
We carry on as usual in the summer mostly, although home groups break for summer & in the past our evening class broke for summers (now I think they try to keep a Sunday evening worship/talk going, I have been hit and miss at those — it’s hard to turn around and drive back to church at the end of the day).
This summer will be very strange as we’re now officially “out” of our regular place of worship and will be meeting at 3 p.m. Sundays at another church. We need to be out of there by 5:30 p.m., so no evening service and (presumably) no adult Q&A, maybe a short SS for kids though. It’ll be a juggle — and our remodel won’t be done for at least 10 weeks, meaning we won’t get back to our regular place & regular schedule until Sept. – Oct. time frame.
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Love the bad-hair-day bird. 🙂
The city of LA has decided to trim our sidewalk trees this morning — they do this every 10 years or so, whether it needs it or not 😉 — and there’s just a horrendous noise everywhere. Glad I’m not still sick and having to deal with trying to stay home amid all the racket. I’m hoping I can get my Jeep out of the driveway, though …
As a reporter I get more than my fill of people contact every day, to be honest. 😉
One of my roommates in the past really liked Barry Manilow. Weird, because she married a guy who looked a lot like him. They bought a house together first, then got married. Also kind of weird in the 1980s, but probably not at all nowadays.
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Chas, some who are deliberately baptized in the name of Jesus (not the Trinity) do so for theological reasons, over-exalting the Son. Now, I can’t say what they do with God the Father, but I think some don’t think the Holy Spirit is God. The JWs don’t believe Jesus is God–no idea how they baptize. Being baptized isn’t necessary for salvation, though it is necessary for obedience. So do you lose points for being baptized wrongly? No, but Trinitarian baptism does nevertheless matter.
I find it interesting that our “standards” say that it is a grave sin for parents to fail to have their baby baptized. I think that a case can easily be made from Scripture for infant baptism (being akin to circumcision as the sign of the covenant, but as in Christ there is no male or female, in Christ the sign of the covenant is also given to females), but I don’t think Scripture makes it explicit who, how, or even why we do baptism. I wish it did, honestly! I don’t think that we can say that parents who are fully convinced that Scripture ties baptism to salvation, and therefore that it must not be done before salvation, are in sin (though they may be in error). But should we seek to understand, and obey, what Scripture says, absolutely.
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Donna, it is actually rather unusual these days NOT to live together first, it seems to me. At least, when we went to rent the men’s tuxes for the wedding, and my husband-to-be gave his address, the lady taking the order then turned to me and asked, “Same?” When I told people about our courtship, I always spelled out that he would come to town and stay with my elder and his wife, and when I came to visit him I stayed with his parents. In “the old days,” I’m not sure that such an arrangement would have needed to be spelled out, but these days, when statistics tell us 70% of those marrying in the church have already slept together (and I’m assuming that doesn’t even include oral sex), and when probably 90 or 95% of unbelievers have done so, it seems worth “spelling out.”
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Cheryl – There are also the “Jesus Only” groups who don’t believe in the Trinity.
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There also are sects that believe baptism is only valid if done by them (and that one is only saved if baptized by them). There was a popular church movement on campuses in the 1990s that taught those things. I remember getting to know a fellow reporter from a sister paper nearby, a black woman, who turned out to be involved in one of those groups. We’d met for lunch after realizing we were both doing a lot of religion writing for our respective papers and realized we were both also Christians.
But I began to pick up something odd (and pushy) after attending her church with her one Sunday at her invitation. Afterward, they were trying their best to get me into a home Bible study, I had to say “no” several times, explaining I had a church, thank you, I’d been a Christian for many years at that point. I was sorry as I was hoping we could be friends. She went on to write for USA Today, but I lost track of her after that.
And I can’t remember the name of the church movement now, I don’t know if it’s still as popular (I presume not). But as I began doing some reading about it at the time, I came across numerous warnings, including some in World Magazine.
Gotta be careful out there.
That’s why it’s good & healthy for us to debate theology, even when it seems “picky” to some of us. It’s all part of trying to better discern and contend for the truth (and weed out the false) as it’s presented in Scripture.
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cheryl, oh for sure, been that way in California for a very long time now (though buying a house as an unmarried couple in the 1980s was a tad unusual) — now NO one doesn’t live together first (and sometimes only, no marriage ever). 🙂
One of our former reporters finally got married to his live-in girlfriend of something like 10 years recently.
We were shocked.
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http://www.worldmag.com/2015/06/old_and_beautiful
Post from Mickey McLean on Elizabeth Elliott photo.
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http://aufait.hubpages.com/hub/Mimosa-trees-facts-information
As a little girl I used the pink blooms to play make up
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I was baptised in a PCUSA when I was 12 after confirmation classes. That means I was sprinkled. When I joined the Southern Baptist church I now attend I had to do a Believer’s Baptism and be immersed. That made sense in my case because I was not a true believer at age 12.
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Kim, weren’t they used like powder puffs? Great memory. I had forgotten!
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Karen, that’s what I was referring to. Do they also refuse to accept the deity of the Father? I assume they must, but I’d never really thought about it. It seems that it is usually the deity of the Son and the Spirit who are called into question?
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Cheryl, I have a bird question for you. I was up in Las Vegas,NM last week and saw a bird I have never seen before. It was about the size of a grackle or pinon jay, but thinner. The main body was glossy black, with white where the red would be on a redwinged blackbird. The ends of the flight feathers and the ends of the tail were white. Any idea what it would be. I flew in sort of predatory way, skimming above the vegetation level. Any idea what it might be?
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Rkessler, you should never fly in a predatory way, it scares people.
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But it sounds like a great deal of fun, skimming above the vegetation….
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I was “poured.”
🙂
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And it was the Boston Church of Christ I was trying to remember:
http://www.cultwatch.com/icc.html
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(from link above): “… the teaching that it is the one true church, love bombing, deceptive recruiting, time control, relationship control … ”
I was definitely getting a strange vibe from them, as nice as they were — and couldn’t understand why my reporter friend was so interested in trying to swoop me into her church circle so completely and quickly. I think she called me twice after my church visit to try to get me to sign onto one of their home group Bible studies.
I had originally reached out to her thinking it would be edifying to talk about the challenges of being fellow believers and reporters who often cover religious topics for secular publications. But it seemed like she didn’t really see me so much as a fellow believer but as someone in need of “conversion.”
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I was baptized as a believer, trusting the people in authority to do it right. Knowing that God knew what was meant. In retrospect, I believe far too much fuss is made about it. Just the right amount of water done according to certain specifications…..
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Best city council lede in our paper in a long time by one of my colleagues:
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Newly elected xxxx City Councilman xxxx xxxxx was sworn into office during a shotgun wedding-type ceremony at a chaotic Tuesday night City Council meeting interrupted by an incoherent rant from City Clerk xxxx xxxx .
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There was even a Lord of the Flies reference later on.
Why communities still need newspapers. I rest my case.
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Cheryl – They reject the the concept of the Trinity, believing that Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are one, & are merely three different names we use for the One, who is now called Jesus. Of course, we also believe Father, Son. & Holy Spirit are One, but not in the same way they do.
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Linda – No worries! I didn’t think you were ignoring me. My comment about not being argumentative was intended generally, not to anyone specifically.
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I was baptized as an infant in the CAtholic church and don’t remember a thing. But I believed that was my baptism. No one bothered me about it until we were married and got involved with a Baptist Navy chaplain who wanted me to be immersed. I saw no need.
The liturgical denominations haven’t cared (I’ve attended a lot of different churches), believing once is sufficient. The non-denominationals, in my experience, have made a fuss that my Catholic baptism was insufficient.
I resisted until my 10 year-old wanted to be baptized by immersion (he had been baptized in an Episcopal church with two sets of godparents. I have photos) while we were attending a Calvary Chapel. The eyebrows went up at us again. So, I decided that to cease being a stumbling block for those well-meaning folks, I’d just let them dunk me. It would be over with then.
As they put me under the water, I prayed, “this is a second time for them, Lord.”
He didn’t say anything.
I felt no different when I came out of the water.
But no one ever asks me anymore.
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Because I was raised in a liturgical setting, became a Christian in a liturgical church and enjoy the historical music, liturgy and sense that truth has been examined and debated for two thousand years, I personally am happier in a liturgical church.
During the seven years we attended Calvary Chapels in three different places, I craved communion, but it was seldom done. I wanted to go to church on religious holidays, but if they didn’t fall on a Sunday, the churches didn’t have services. This was also true at the Bible church we attended. I realize we don’t know for sure what day Jesus was born, but I liked the symbolism of the holy days. I liked being called to confess my personal sins every Sunday in church. I love communion.
So, I’m happier in a liturgical church.
Those who have read my Loving God without a Label, will remember I finally reached the conclusions that denominations are like worship styles. The Lord is the same, just worship in a Bible-believing and preaching church that stirs your soul and causes you to grow closer to Jesus.
For me, that’s a liturgical church that serves communion every other week, or every week, within the context of confession and recognition of God at work in each of us.
Candles just make it more special. 🙂
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Are Presbyterian churches liturgical? I attended one after I stopped attending the Methodist (I went there out of respect for my grandmother who had gone to one a few times) when I was in my teens. My parents did not care where I went. But the guy had robes and there was a choir and candles and it seemed he used the same format every week with readings from some special book we all read responses in. I liked that church.
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I guess I should ask, what is liturgical?
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Our son was sprinkle baptized as a baby in my mother’s PCUSA small rural church. He has felt that to be sufficient so far, but I hope he may go for immersion sometime since my husband and I have both been immersed. i don’t make an issue of it, but like Michelle, he felt it carried forward to when he truly believed. He is in a sprinkling church so immersion probably seems a bit foreign even though he went to my church for maybe a couple of years.
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Such an interesting discussion these past few days. I have a few observations.
On what excommunication is: Excommunication is the Latin derived term for putting someone out of fellowship. I Corinthians 5:4-5, 9-13 is the text for how it is done:
Paul also mentions in I Timothy 1:20 about delivering Hymenaes and Alexander unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Our church recently had a situation of a adult child of a couple of the members who had been put out of his church for adultery, but came home to visit his parents. Under the guidance of our pastor, who consulted with the other church, we decided that this person was not welcome to attend, and especially not take communion in our church until he had convinced the disciplining church of his repentance. Since Hebrews 10’s warning not to forsake the assembly of believers indicates that fellowshipping with other Christians helps to keep us walking with the Lord, putting someone out of fellowship effectively delivers them over to all the temptations that Satan can inflict, hopefully causing them to be thoroughly weary of their sin and to turn in repentance.
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On who can give communion: According to Augustine of Hippo, the decision of the Church against the Donatists during the 300’s was that it is God who confers the power of communion:
Link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatism
I personally believe that communion should only be taken with the body of believers. Paul’s language in I Corinthians 11, when he speak of coming together to observe the Lord’s supper, is very similar in his language in chapter 5 when he speaks of coming together for the purposes of discipline. I do not think it matters who hands you the bread and wine, as I view them as purely physical symbols of a spiritual reality. However, I do think it is needful to have an elder presiding over the ceremony, as it shows that the body of believers is submitting to God’s structure of church leadership, as per I Timothy 3.
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RKessler, the closest to what you’re describing that I can think of is a magpie, but I’m not sure that is it. http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Black-billed_Magpie/lifehistory
Whatever you are describing, it’s one I’ve never seen.
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Note to prior post: Although the Wikipedia article mentions the Catholic Church, nearly many denominations view Augustine as a valid and orthodox voice from the early Church. The Reformed denominations frequently cite him.
On baptism: That is one place where I find myself in some disagreement with the new pastor. We are both firm proponents of baptism by immersion of confessing believers (usually adults, but also children who understand what they are doing). However, he fences the communion table with that kind of baptism as a requirement for participating in Communion. So, my young relative, who was baptized as an infant in a Presbyterian church, and is now a confessing Christian showing evidence of faith, cannot take communion when visiting our church. Our former pastor used to just ask that confessing believers who have been baptized take communion, not specifying the manner in which the baptism took place.
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I thought of magpie at first but one would never describe a magpie without describing the sound.
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Roscuro, it’s admirable that you honored the other church’s discipline. A week and a half ago, my husband and I attended a church we had attended once before (our younger daughter attended there the year she attended college). Inside the bulletin is an insert on who may take communion, and the gist of it is a baptized believer who is a member of, and in good standing with, a Bible-believing church. It explicitly states that if your own church has barred you from the table, then you are barred, that they honor other churches’ discipline.
Mumsee, liturgical churches vary in their level of formality and how closely they stay to the same structure from one week to another. Technically every church that has an order of worship (as opposed to just playing it by ear) has a liturgy, but we tend to think of liturgical churches as being those that have a creed that they say together, and responsive readings, a time for private confession of sin, may do the Lord’s supper weekly (like ours and Donna’s), etc. They may or may not follow a church calendar (ours does not).
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Then I must attend a liturgical church. Each week we greet each other, sing, sermon, sing, communion, sing, offering, recite an affirmation of faith, prayer, calendar of events, invitation, sing, sing.
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Phos, when the communion table is fenced like that, is it because the unimmersed is unsaved or in sin? Not an obnoxious question though it certainly sounds like one.
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Mumsee, that is something which I’ve often pondered. My personal conclusion, thus far, has been that baptism is the public confession of belief, as demonstrated in Acts 2 with the baptising of 3000 people who believed at Pentecost. Thus the person has publicly identified themselves as a Christian. Neither the former pastor, nor the current pastor have much use for altar calls to show conversion. They do not, and neither do I, view baptism as necessary for salvation, but rather as a mark of obedience in publicly identifying with Christ. Communion is also a way of publicly acknowledging one’s continued obedience to and faith in Christ; so I suppose, in a way, communion is a continuation of the public confession of baptism. I hope that is understandable. I’ve often thought about this, but I find that the concept I have in my head doesn’t come out as clearly in words.
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Sounds then, like they believe the person is not being obedient to Christ and therefore in sin. If “they” then set criteria for who can be baptized are they not usurping God’s authority to determine the heart? I can see how it would get more and more confusing by putting constraints on these things.
I certainly believe the ideal of communion and baptism would be with and before others, but by limiting it to only that, or by limiting baptism to only one way, or communion to only one way that is not specifically addressed in Scripture, seems somewhat scary.
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Mumsee, they no more view the unbaptized Christian to be in sin, than they view the thief on the cross as sinning because he was not baptized before he died. As to the limitations, we as Christians do have the ability to discern from the fruit, what manner of person someone is. Paul, very boldly, states in I Corinthians 5 on the man who married his father’s wife, that although not present, his spirit had already judged the matter. So, I do not think the judgement of elders within the cooperation the body of believers can be said to usurping God’s authority. Each believer has the Spirit dwelling in him or her, and gathered together in obedience, the Spirit can and does work powerfully in bringing conviction and comfort.
I do not think there are unbiblical constraints on whom my church allows to be baptized. From what I remember of my interview, the pastor merely ascertained that I fully understand the Gospel, and since that is what Philip did with the Ethiopian eunuch, it was very biblical. As I was an obedient twelve-year-old at the time, there were no obvious sins which would disqualify me either. I do think baptism should take place as close as possible to the confession. However, although I was five when I made a confession, I was uncomfortable with the idea of being baptized partly because I didn’t like going underwater. By the time I was twelve, I was ready (I was the one who made the request). I took communion after I was baptized. In each step I have taken, I have waited until God gave me the conviction that now is the time – the elder and deacons acted in support of my decision because they could see the fruit that I bore. That is how it should be.
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Our church only requires a credible confession of faith and answering in the affirmative to a few very basic questions about the authority of Scripture and the desire to put away sin and live a godly life for membership and/or baptism.
The leaders of the church cannot see people’s hearts, but instead must rely on congregants’ confession of faith & some observation of them with regard to church attendance. There may be baptized members in good standing who are not believers, in fact — Jesus talked about the wheat and the tares growing side by side.
But Christ’s church was given the authority as overseers and shepherds of the flock here on earth — and as such it’s logical and biblical, I think, that they are tapped to handle these matters.
And just as unbelievers exist within the church, do Christians exist isolated, outside of the church? Sure. But it’s not the norm and it’s far from ideal or what was intended — it should never be the chosen way unless there is really no other alternative.
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Agreed. But some folk, perhaps, are deeper in sin or further from the Truth or some such thing so their lives may not so clearly show the fruit. The fruit of love, joy, peace, etc does not all show at once, though it can. Some of us are slow developers, others are very quick. I am afraid I did not know much fruit for years after baptism. It is all very complicated, I am glad I am not in charge and none of the rest of us are either. But God is working.
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The fruit for those considering baptism that I was thinking of as was more along the lines of repentance from sin. I’m talking here about obvious sin, the kind listed in the I Corinthians 5 passage. For example, Nicodemus, who up to that point had been greedy and a swindler, telling Christ that he would repay those he had cheated. Obviously, the fruit of the Spirit does take time to show; but the adulterer who declares that he believes and then turns immediately back to the bed of his illicit lover is not showing the awareness of sin that would warrant baptism at that point, especially since cheating on one’s spouse is even frowned upon in the secular world (that was one of Paul’s points to the Corinthians concerning the man who had his father’s wife).
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Thanks, Mumsee!
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After all, even John the Baptist demanded that people bring forth fruit meet for repentance before he would baptize them.
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What roscuro said — essentially, repentance and a desire to live a godly life (even though it will be a fight to the death and we’ll often fail); understanding/grasping and desiring to seek God’s grace in the way forward, trusting him Him alone.
It’s often (accurately) said that the only sin for which someone can rightfully be excommunicated is a refusal to repent. It’s not the behavior that comes with a particular sin in itself, but rather the person’s recognition that it is wrong in God’s eyes and a willingness to fight the good fight. And to keep fighting even after a fall.
For anyone who has been genuinely regenerated by the Holy Spirit, this all is a natural outpouring. It naturally flows from a reborn heart.
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We have had bio family contact us, desiring to regain contact with their children. They assure us they are changed and now diligent in Bible study and really want to send letters to our children. We tell them to let us know in a few weeks. They always disappear. I suppose that is the same thing. It makes sense.
Repentance and a desire to turn are important, but easy to say, not so easy to do, especially without the Holy Spirit working.
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Precisely, Donna. The person whom our church chose to ‘excommunicate’ had been confronted with the sin and had rather grown more obdurate. In the words of Christ:
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I know that elders in my church have met & counseled with people for months, sometimes a year or more, trying to work things out for restoration before taking that step. It’s something no one wants to do and everyone hates to see happen. It’s heartbreaking for all concerned. But sometimes there’s no way left but that. Then you pray they’ll still repent & return.
In one case (at a former church) one of our elders (sweetest guy) actually began meeting with an individual who had already been excommunicated, going to his place weekly for Bible studies in what was an ongoing post-effort to bring him around. I don’t think it had that result, but I trust God was with the elder in that effort and it may eventually have borne fruit later on.
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This is good news:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/17/health/baby-recession-over/index.html
(CNN)The number of births in the United States went up last year for the first time since 2007, according to an annual report by the CDC National Center for Health Statistics.
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Mumsee: “Repentance and a desire to turn are important, but easy to say, not so easy to do, especially without the Holy Spirit working.”
Exactly. Which always plays into our observation of a person’s willingness and desire to change. Without regeneration and the Holy Spirit, they quickly lose interest, especially if patterns are well established.
A regenerate person, on the other hand — while it may be a fierce struggle to overcome long patterns of behavior — is supernaturally drawn to “keep on keeping on” despite failures that may occur along the way. They keep showing up, they keep praying, they keep trying.
Again, we can never truly know another’s heart, but there is evidence of faith and repentance that is visible.
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Cheryl, I don’t think it was a magpie, as its belly was glossy black. I was driving down a dirt road at close to 7,000 feet elevation. I did not hear a song from it, as it was flying and I had the windows on the pickup closed. I watched it fly along the pasture for about a quarter of a mile.
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😳 Just realized my 9:39 post calls poor Nicodemus a greedy swindler. I meant Zaccheus, the tax collector of course. Clearly, my brain is getting tired. Goodnight!
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And nobody called you on it, but a spelling or grammatical error? Whew.
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Sounds like a horrible church shooting tonight in South Carolina, historic AME church where people had gathered for Wednesday night Bible study. Reports of a number of casualties. Suspect is a young white guy, slight build, but no motive or other details evident or being reported yet. Read one story that said several pastors were on their knees, praying together in the street. Lord have mercy.
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