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Our Daily Thread 4-18-15

Good Morning!

I got rid of that nasty old cow bird. 🙂

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On this day in 1521 Martin Luther confronted the emperor Charles V in the Diet of Worms and refused to retract his views that led to his excommunication.  

In 1775 American revolutionaries Paul Revere, William Dawes, and Samuel Prescott rode though the towns of Massachusetts giving the warning that the Regulars were coming.

In 1847 U.S. troops defeated almost 17,000 Mexican soldiers commanded by Santa Anna at Cerro Gordo.

And in 1923 the original Yankee Stadium opened in the Bronx, NY. The Yankees beat the Boston Red Sox 4-1. John Phillip Sousa’s band played the National Anthem. 

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Quote of the Day

“He travels best that knows when to return.”

Thomas Middleton

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 On this day in 1796 Benjamin Carr’s “The Archers” was performed in NYC. It was the first opera written by an American composer. I couldn’t find that, but I did find something else of his you’ll recognize.

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Anyone have a QoD?

62 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 4-18-15”

  2. Re: discussions last night. And not to restart them. But it relates to something I mentioned some tome ago about Pastor Steve’s Rabbit Chasing comments.

    Unless you have the gift of prophesy, and the specific calling, you are not called out, nor responsible for the sins of unbelievers. It is not a witness for Christ to point out that adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, etc. by unbelievers is a sin.
    Sin doesn’t matter to them. Except a bad practice can lead to disaster of some sort.

    Unless it’s .someone close to you, whose conduct you want to change because it leads to bad outcomes, the specific action is none of your business and pointing out that it’s sinful is not productive.

    The only sin Paul and the other apostles pointed out for unbelievers is the sin of unbelief.
    He did mention in Romans 2 about the ungodly hoarding wrath for the time of judgment.

    That’s my nickel’s worth.
    Carry on.
    😉

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  4. Ever the optimist I bought a paperback book last night on the off chance we got another sliver of sun like we did yesterday. I am sitting here read g it and watching it rain outside my living room window.

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  5. AJ, they’re cowbirds, brood parasites. She lays all her eggs in other birds’ nests, one per nest, sometimes more than a dozen eggs. Some parent birds eject the eggs, but some raise the youngster as their own. It grows faster than their own chicks and is likely to eject them from the nest. Nasty birds, in other words. Sorry.

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  6. Chas- interesting thought.

    Mrs L and I are at a Bible conference. The theme is “We are aliens in a strange land.” So far some good messages from 1 Peter.

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  7. I bought my husband a book for Christmas: Hikes Around Sonoma County. We’re going on our second hike this morning! 🙂

    No dream of rain here. We’re headed to Laguna de Santa Rosa while it still is damp.

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  8. I was showing my dad a nest in a small cedar by our house. He saw, that in addition to the bird’s eggs, there was a cow bird’s egg. He threw it out of the nest, saying that the bird would probably cause the other chicks to die.

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  9. I don’t have a lot of time to debate the discussion that Chas refers to, but will add my two cents. Christians are to be light and salt. I think that means more than just proclaiming the gospel.

    What someone shares anything on a public media is individual. However, to never speak of the issues of the day in your corner of the world is to give the impression you agree with what the majority is saying. Everyone has different things to consider in sharing their opinions or the truth on the issues.

    Some have family or friends that may be hurt or misunderstand. Some have co-workers or jobs to consider. Some debate nothing on a particular media. Some have emotional issues and simply cannot take on the added stress. It is best, IMO, to worry about what you share and let others be. It has to be a matter of prayer, study and deep thinking.

    As far as gay marriage, those promoting it are trying to silence all debate. Many are thinking about the issue, but are afraid to speak out. That is a deliberate thing on the part of the promoters of it. It will be too late to speak out much after the fact and we will all live with the aftermath. Because this will mostly negatively affect the children who will live without either a mother or father, it is more than about only those who choose to sin. That is true of all sin, of course. There is a time to speak and then a time when speaking will not have as much impact.

    It is our responsibility as citizens and good neighbors to carefully consider what and how much we share with others.

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  10. Wow, evil birds.

    It’s dry as a stick out here — the last story of the day I had to cover Friday was a fire that had palm trees going up like torches in one of the neighborhoods where there’s a canyon with hiking trails. It wound up taking a couple houses out, but no reports of any injuries, thankfully.

    A friend from the dog park lives in the neighborhood so I interviewed her by phone, she said the fire just exploded, the trees just burst into flames which then raced up hillsides and blew jumped to a couple homes, all driven by hot, dry winds we had yesterday. It came perilously close also to a homeless encampment in the area — people were screaming and running out of the bushes. She and other neighbors were grabbing garden hoses and pounding on doors to get everyone out as fire crews arrived, took about 100 city firefighters w/a helicopter to douse it. And then there were hot spots popping up for a while afterward.

    My friend was saying how dry it’s been out there in the canyon, she said the ground literally “crunches” beneath your feet when we’d walk her dog in the mornings. The city spent a few million recently to beautify the canyon as a nice neighborhood park, unveiling it all in a ceremony in 2010 — not sure what state that’s in now. They’ll be able to assess the damage better today.

    But a little good news, hopefully — they’re saying we *may* get some rain next Saturday. And I saw an article yesterday that said a moderate to strong El Nino condition in the Pacific (which brings us lots of rain) seems to be shaping up for winter (Jan.-Feb.) 2016.

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  13. The 2 Karens’ husbands both have birthdays today – 10 years apart! Happy birthday to Lee!

    Saw 2 trumpeter swans fly over head while out hiking the edge of the forest looking for dropped antlers. We didn’t find any antlers, but we did find a very cool old bull’s skull which we will hide somewhere on our property 🙂

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  14. I also rescued a dark eyed junco that had likely hit our window and was just sitting on the ground. I put him up on top of our Jeep out of the cat’s view – he’s still there 😦

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  15. So, we went to visit my dad and stepmom yesterday. They are doing well, as is daughter. On the way up, about thirty minutes into the drive, we received a phone call from son saying the bank needed to speak with us immediately. We pulled over and called. Seems somebody was wiring money from daughter’s account so some “friend of the family”. They believed it was daughter. So we thought about that as we drove the rest of the way up. And talked with God. And thought. You can imagine some of the things we thought. The bank called because the person at the other bank was quite alarmed as this was the second time daughter had done this in the past three days. A substantial amount. So that banker called our banker, also alarmed, who called us, knowing daughter to be quite gullible and quite generous, we were concerned. Turned out fine, she had heard of a missionary with an orphanage in Mexico and wanted to support him so she did. Lesson learned: relay that info to the other person on your checking account so when the bank calls to confirm, it can be taken care of with less drama.

    On the return trip, again, nearly a third of the way, we received a phone call from another son. Seems he had forgotten his mitt, driven home to get it, parked his car on the basketball court with the engine running. He ran in to get the glove, realized they had forgotten to do the dishes which needed to be done before I got home, so did them. Then he raced out the door to find his truck missing. It had idled on off the court and down the driveway about one hundred plus feet, then up the other end of the driveway to the road where it peaked out on momentum. It came back down the drive and smashed into the goat fence, breaking a four by four but no other damage. I could not tell him enough how glad I was he had done that here with nobody around as so often we read about some child getting run over by a runaway car, or one driving into a store or whatever. The truck made several adjustments going down the road, to do the least damage but enough that he will need to take some time to fix it. We looked at the tracks, shook our heads, and thanked God once again.

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  17. We are hoping he learned that. Especially since his truck does not have a working parking brake. We did tell him to get a block of wood to take with him in case he needs to park on a hill of the gears won’t keep it in place.

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  18. I have been turning this question over and over in my mind for the past week. On the assumption that both mother and son who shot themselves arrived in paradise, do you think she was rejoicing to welcome him or heartbroken he followed the same path as she? I do realized there are many theological problems with the question.
    I am not concerned over my own death when the time comes but I do wish for my child to live a long, happy life.

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  20. Does anyone hear know anything about robin courtship and mating? I’m puzzled by behavior I filmed earlier. Two robins were going at each other at several places in the yard, and it was a while before I was able to grab my camera and photograph them (they were behind a tree for a while, hidden from my view, and I also have no idea how long they’d been engaging before I saw them and reached for my camera). I figured it was probably fighting, since it looked pretty aggressive, but bird fighting and courtship can look pretty similar, so I wasn’t sure. It continued for a couple more cycles, which I photographed, and then one bird went into the yard next door and the other went under a tree in our yard to pant for several minutes. (I don’t know if it was panting, but its beak was open, suggesting it was probably winded from what was really a great deal of exertion.)

    Well, OK, this is what the photos showed: The birds moved toward each other on the ground, then in the air, then on the ground they paused to rest and regroup. The second time, a minute or so later, they went up in the air, and when they came down one was on its back and the other on top. Oh, did I fail to mention they were in fact one male and one female? And that the one that ended up on top was the female? Now, birds generally mate by the male getting on the female’s back and the mating itself is usually very quick. In these photos, taken at a fast-action setting, their tails are angled against each other, with no hint that they mated. They may well have mated during one or more of the earlier engagements that I wasn’t able to photograph. But the male on his back on the ground is not at all the right conclusion to that scene.

    So . . . does robin courtship include what looks like fighting, but he can only mate with her if he ends up being the one on top? Or were they maybe even still deciding whether to take each other as mates, but so far she’s unconvinced? I also considered the possibility that the female is a mated bird, but this was not her mate, and she was chasing him away . . . but if that was the case, I really think her own mate would have either been there to observe or to chase the intruder himself.

    After he went into the yard next door, she stood with her mouth open for several minutes, by all appearances exhausted. But sometime later they (or two robins, anyway) were chasing each other again, in our yard and the one next door, but mostly in the yard next door.

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  21. Mumsee, rejoicing for what?

    Kim, Scripture tells us extremely little about the in-between state, so I couldn’t begin to speculate. But while suicide is not the unpardonable sin, I wouldn’t be inclined to “assume” that two people whose last act was murder are both believers.

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  23. Cheryl, I was going with the mentioned assumption and also assuming they were with God. In which case, the mom would be rejoicing in the Glory of God and His salvation to her and to her son. Jesus’ redemption of us is complete. If they are with Him in glory, they are forgiven and well. Not living in remorse. Now, if they are not with God……

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  24. I know that the mother was very involved in her church here and the father was very involved in his church in another city. That church set up a suicide hotline in memory of the son. I attended the mother’s funeral here and the church was packed. Family from here traveled to the funeral in the other city, state. It was also packed. Not that packing a church insures your salvation but due to funeral expenses very few funerals are held in churches anymore. Churches aren’t inclined to host funerals for people that are not active members.
    I am only going on assumptions.
    It is just one of those things that as a mother has played over and over in my mind. Mental illness is very real. A person who takes their own life isn’t thinking clearly…obviously.

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  25. Yesterday I mentioned that I am choosing not to get into my personal views on the subject of homosexuality on my own Facebook posts. But I have addressed the subject on others’ posts & in personal emails. I have shared articles by gay men who themselves are against same-sex marriage because they know children need two parents, one of each sex. Everything I have written on the subject has been written very carefully, lovingly, & respectfully.

    Even so, although I was very careful, I lost my relationship with my niece, & at least one friend thinks me ignorant & bigoted.

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  27. Karen, it used to be that two people could civilly discuss their opposing views. There is the tale of Tip O’Neil fighting Reagan in congress and then going and having a drink with him. There was a time I may not have agreed with you but would have fought for your right to your opinion. Those days are gone and if you don’t agree with the opposing view you could lose your livelihood. Who would have ever thought that would happen in the United State of America?
    I have a best friend who is much, much more liberal than I am and she is one of the few people I can discuss my views and be respected and I can respect her views.

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  29. On suicide: Had my aunt who attempted suicide succeeded in one of her attempts (and she very nearly did), she would have died a Christian. She has always demonstrated growth as a Christian, even at her lowest point. As Kim says, mental illness is very real. Psychosis is a recognized part of illnesses like schizophrenia and manic/depressive, but I am convinced that deep depression can also cause periods where the mind looses touch with reality.

    Mumsee, what a hair raising day!

    On cowbirds: they may be nasty parasites like the cuckoo, but they have the most beautiful song. Years ago, one used to come and sit by our open window when the radio was playing music and every once in a while would punctuate the music with a song that sounded like the gurgling of a spring of water.

    About speaking to unbelievers about their sins: There is a time to speak and a time to remain silent. I think when dealing with a political/social issue of sin, one should simply state that it is wrong, but avoid long harangues. I don’t think John the Baptist kept on at Herod after stating his opinion on Herod’s wife. My friend and I were discussing that recently – she said her homosexual classmates would try to get her to preach at them, and she would just look at them and say, “You know what I think.” I wasn’t so vocal (never have been), so I would just ignore them when they tried to get me to react. In fact, I really think that activists for gay marriage love to have people like the Phelps cult go on vitriolic rants. It makes them look like victims. Christ saved His most biting statements for religious hypocrites – those living in open immorality were treated quite gently by Him.

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  30. Pastor Steve, in talking about suicide, knows what he’s talking about. His wife, when she was a young woman, attempted suicide. overdose. They revived her.
    He points out the many great things that wouldn’t happened if she had succeeded , not the least of which was him and the children.

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  31. One of my family members taunted me about our gay cousin, accusing me of hypocrisy. “How come you don’t hit him with your Bible?”

    It had never occurred to me to do that. I responded: “Even if I had a big black Bible, why would I start with him?”

    It’s never come up again . . .

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  39. BTW, as I said yesterday, suicide isn’t the unpardonable sin . . . but I do think that today we shy away from calling it a sin at all. It’s only mental illness when we discuss it. Well, it’s also a serious sin, and 1 Corinthians 10:13 applies to it as well: “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

    I’ve had people I love greatly who have been deeply hurt by suicide, by people who planned it as revenge, and put a great deal of forethought into it and left notes that were as hurtful as possible. And I’ve heard the agony of a mother, a daughter, a sister left to pick up the pieces. Someone close to me lost her brother and then her mother that way, someone else a son, and a boy who was the son of a family friend (we families used to play together in our backyard) and a year younger than me killed himself when he was 13.

    I’ve also had someone (a man I knew through online dating services, though he and I only talked by phone and never went out) who told me that he had once made a suicide attempt, and his wife asked him didn’t he think about her and their daughter? And even in telling it, he was indignant that she would say such a thing–he said, “What about me?” Even years later, in telling about it, he apparently still missed the horror of it for family left behind, because his thought was still only for himself.

    So overall, I’d rather hear it treated less as “he was seriously mentally ill and couldn’t help himself” and more as “this is an ugly decision that will destroy people you claim to love.” Sometimes it’s somewhere between those two, but as long as we treat the person who died as the victim deserving of sympathy, and tread lightly with the agony of those left behind, it will be seen as an acceptable option, even one that will bring sympathy. I have sympathy for the person who is in so much pain that such a thought goes across their mind . . . but when a person actually murders himself (and sometimes others along with him), my sympathy is for the horror of those left to deal with it.

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  40. Cheryl, my comment yesterday, I recognized that suicide can be very selfish indeed. But I also said that every suicide – or attempted suicide – has a different motivation. I don’t think that by acknowledging the fact that some people are out of their minds when they do a crime, it somehow makes that crime seem a better option to others. The law recognizes differing degrees of intent in murder, and nobody thinks that makes murder more or less likely; since suicide is murder, we should be able to recognize that it too has differing degrees of motivation. The Bible recognizes that men can loose control of themselves, whether through drunkenness or other factors (David imitated a mad man to escape once, so the people of the Old Testament knew what insanity was) and are not held responsible for what they do in that time (i.e. Lot being drunk). As the Bible says, mercy rejoices against judgement.

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  41. Cheryl, I very much respect what you are saying. I have said the same things. I have spouted off that suicide is the ultimate selfish act. I have said it takes a weak person to kill themselves. 5 years ago my goddaughter’s father killed himself. It was only after multiple attempts that he succeeded. His wife had finally divorced him and moved back to where she was raised. She had to protect her children from being there when he tried again. There was so much jumbled up pain in his past and in his life. He tried to be “normal” but he couldn’t be. One of his attempts both children were at home. The oldest is BG’s age. The wife was at work. He called to tell her that he had taken the pills and she was so immune to it that she just called the next door neighbor. He was hospitalized and put in the psych ward. He finally shot himself in December of 2009, The mother makes sure her children see a therapist to help them understand. The very REAL fear is that they will become susceptible.
    A local man killed himself when he was diagnosed with the same dibilitating disease that had killed his mother. He had provided most of her care. He didn’t want to put his family through the same thing. It made sense to him but not to the family who loved him.
    My uncle by marriage was 20 something years older than my aunt. He had been diagnosed with something. He heard how relieved all of my aunts and uncles were when my grandfather died. He had been a beast to take care of. My uncle saw it as a way to keep his wife, my aunt from having to take care of him. It left us all in shock.
    Then these two suicides happened. I can almost imagine what the mother was feeling that morning. Her son had gotten angry with her and went to live with his father. The ex husband and the son were angry with her and peppering her with text messages and emails one after the other. I imagine she felt like a failure as a mother. I imagine she was hurting on a level few can understand. She just wanted to stop the “merry go round” and get off. She wanted to stop the hurt deep inside of her.
    Why do I know this? Because my own child got angry with me and went to live with her father. She will not speak to my husband. She will not come to my house. Last April I was sitting outside when I realized she would probably never come home and live with me again. I started crying and I couldn’t stop. I was a failure as a mother. What kind of mother doesn’t have her child? A BAD mother. A mother who doesn’t even deserve to be called that name. Everything started playing in my head. Every thing I had ever done as a mother that wasn’t perfect. Every failure as a mother. What was the purpose of my life if it wasn’t to be a mother? All the thoughts were negative and I started crying. I cried and cried and cried. My husband, bless him, came outside and talked to me. He said that even if BG was still with me she would be pulling away from me right now and it was just what teenagers do. They aren’t thinking about anyone but themselves. I got through the weekend and I hauled myself to the doctor where I poured out the whole story and I went back on medication.
    So knowing everything that was going on in this mother’s life, I think I can imagine what she was feeling and thinking. My heart hurt for her and for her children. The fact that her son, the one who was giving her such fits chose to follow in her footsteps while painful isn’t that surprising to me.
    It made me think. Would she feel guilty that her son killed himself like she did or would she rejoice to see him? I think if it were me I would just feel more guilt. But then we are taught about all the rejoicing that goes on when one dies and is with the Lord.

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  42. Kim, your husband is wise. Children grow up and seek independence.

    We know that when we are with Him, we will see clearly. You will not feel guilty about things not done. You will not feel guilty about things done. You will rejoice that God loves you and was with you the whole time.

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  44. The WMU of Georgia Baptist women had a very nice Spring Event/retreat.

    One of the ladies who spoke was a Cowboy church planter with her husband.They live in Idaho around Blackfoot I believe. Is that near Mumsee? I did not realize that there are many Mormons in Idaho.

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  45. Roscuro, I definitely understand there are different motivations for suicide, and different levels of “planning” the act.

    But I think we as a society have largely glamorized suicide, and we talk of those who do it as victims. When a teenager does it, it seems to usually come out that he was bullied–but who hasn’t been bullied? Are there any teens who have been bullied, and see people who commit suicide treated so nicely after death and their bullies made to look really extra bad, and they themselves commit suicide partly as an act of revenge? Teen culture being what it is, I’d be surprised if there weren’t such suicides.

    Listen, age 13 was one of the two worst years of my life. I remember a sense of being trapped with no good options. The fact that suicide was wrong was significant. Yes, there are times that won’t matter to somebody, as there are times it won’t matter that this person is already married, or whatever. (BTW, I definitely don’t think anyone in Scripture is given a “pass” for being drunk. Being drunk is itself a sin. There are indeed times a person isn’t morally accountable for what might otherwise be a sin–a young child whose action results in someone’s death would be a prime example–but I don’t think drunkenness is one of those, since drunkenness is itself a morally culpable condition.) When my childhood acquaintance / friend of the family killed himself a year later, when he himself was 13, I had a strong sense of empathy. But I had an overwhelming sense of being glad that route had never been an option for me.

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  46. Yes, AJ, the cardinal is better. Is that the one who was after the female?

    Kim, when I married, the first year was a tricky relationship with the girls. They were older teens at the time, one in her senior year of high school and one in her sophomore year of college. A friend reminded me that even if they were biologically mine, they would be spreading their wings, so it was an awkward age in which to be bonding, instead. It’s awkward for BG, too, and she chose to live with her dad instead. It’s not personal, and in a year or two your relationship will probably start to grow close again, almost certainly within a few years if not sooner. (I now have a very sweet relationship with my young-adult stepdaughters.) At that age you’re thinking of your newly expanded horizons more than you are thinking of how hard the transition is on your parents, but if the relationship is otherwise good (and I think it is for you), it’s temporary.

    One of my brothers, years ago, said something that was profound. He said it didn’t occur to him until he had children that you love your children more than you love your parents (and, likewise, more than your children love you). That’s natural and it’s right, but it is sometimes hard.

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  48. Heavy subjects being discussed.

    Kim, I can so relate to the feelings you have. When my first husband and I divorced, we had 3 teenage daughters. The oldest was 18 and had just moved to another town, going to college and working. My middle girl was 16, the youngest 14. Because of an older boy she wanted to be involved with, she moved in with her father, 180 miles away.

    She ended up getting pregnant, married, and had 4 children with him before they divorced. These are the 4 granddaughters who lived with us for 3 years.

    I am happy to report that she worked, went to school, bought a house, got married, took the children back, and has another baby. She has a stable home, and is seeking to serve the Lord. She is 30 this year. There is hope if you persevere.

    Hang in there. God is faithful even when we are not.

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  50. Yes Cheryl, he is.

    Today I think I discovered a couple of cardinals starting a nest. I watched the male bring in twigs and long grass a few times. Then the female flew out too. The male seemed to bring most of it in, so I assume the female was building it in the thick brush they kept going into. I noted the spot so I can check it later, but I won’t disturb them. 🙂

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  51. Cheryl, I think the glamourizing of suicide as an option comes not from the mourning from someone’s suicide, but rather a cultural attitude of determining one’s own destiny. Ending one’s life on one’s own terms is the ultimate expression of control for those who embrace the philosophy that we are what we make ourselves. I have read or heard prominent atheists say exactly that. Teens, like the Columbine killers, may imbibe such reasoning and kill themselves – and others – as an act of defiance. But we do not confuse the teen struggling with depression who commits suicide with the teen who leaves a message of hate for those he leaves behind.

    By the way, I did not say the Bible doesn’t consider drunkenness a sin – it certainly does. What I said was that the Bible recognized that there were states of mind where the person looses the ability to consciously control their actions. Lot consciously choose to get drunk, but he did not consciously choose to commit incest – the account in Genesis is very careful to state that he did not know what was happening while he was drunk. As he is later called ‘righteous Lot’ in the New Testament, the indication is pretty clear that he was not held responsible for his daughters actions. His sin was getting drunk; their sin was committing incest.

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  52. I went to see a simulcast of Joel Rosenburg’s “The Third Target” tonight. It was about a novel he has written about ISIS getting WMD, (poison gas).
    It was interesting, but 1.5 hours long. Joel is interesting, but long winded. It takes him a while to say something. I will probably buy the book. I have read most of what he has written.

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  55. Fourth Arrow (13-year-old daughter) was confirmed today, and we have a TON of food left over from our celebration. Wow, would I love to invite all you blog friends over to share a meal. 🙂

    Funny announcement I saw today on the website for the place I’m performing next week:

    Piano Extravaganza
    [The piano show organizer] is playing and bringing in excellent area painists…     !!

    Oh, I hope we don’t cause the audience any pain. 😉

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  56. Michelle, years ago I edited a book about romance gone awry, and the author pointed out some research that a huge percentage of suicides among the young were shortly after a romantic breakup. Her point was that romance needs to be kept in check until we know that this person is a marriageable match, since we hurt ourselves unnecessarily by inappropriate attachments. But considering the number of murders linked with romance gone awry, I would say the point could have just as easily been the physical danger involved. (Restraining orders don’t work very well in those cases, from what I’ve heard–they just make the person angrier: “How dare you try to tell me I can’t see this person!”) In other words, under different circumstances the suicide might well have been the murder of the other party.

    Roscuro, indeed the Bible doesn’t specifically blame Lot for the incest; that seemed almost more like rape than consensual incest. But I don’t think we can get anything about that from his being called “righteous Lot.” It seems to have been grace that he got that term, since nothing told of him in Scripture indicates wise choices! He fled when the angels told him to flee, and he didn’t look back, but otherwise from start to finish he showed foolishness and spiritual immaturity. I think that if someone gets drunk and kills someone, biblically they would be morally culpable. If he had gotten drunk and raped his daughters, I think he would also have been seen as morally culpable–and I’m not sure he is totally let off the hook as it is.

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  58. Cheryl, we can deduce this much from what the NT says about Lot. That being so distressed by the immorality of Sodom and Gomorrah, he would have had no desire to commit such immorality himself. “…and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials…” (II Peter 2:7-9, ESV)

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  59. Good point, Roscuro. But part of the sadness of the story is that by immersing his family in that immorality without effectively countering it, he lost his whole family to it. His sons-in-law (commentators don’t know if that means his single daugthers’ intended husbands or married daughters’ husbands) refused to leave Sodom, his wife looked back in regret, and his daughters chose to have their families sinfully.

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  60. Bob, you’ve never seen a cardinal? How sad!

    I have loved them ever since I saw one when I was eight or ten, probably about eight–in Phoenix, which is not within their range, a male landed on the back fence. I asked Mom what kind of bird it was and she looked and said “a red cardinal.” Many a school paper in the days ahead got a brightly colored cardinal somewhere on it. . . . I don’t remember when I saw a second one, but I know I desperately tried to photograph them for years, with cameras that weren’t anywhere near adequate to photograph a bird 20 feet away (you can’t really get closer than that to a cardinal) and I’d end up with a tiny red speck somewhere in the photo.

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  61. I’ve heard that about how Lot should have countered the immorality, and that he failed as a father, etc. The thing is, the Bible never says that. It doesn’t even say that Lot made the wrong decision in living in the area [Abraham rescued both Sodom and Gomorrah just to rescue Lot – and was blessed by Melchisedec, who lived not that far away in Salem]. The Bible simply relates the story. We can clearly see that Lot’s fear led him to place himself in dangerous situations, but he wasn’t the only OT hero that was an utter coward: Abraham and Isaac lied out of fear; Jacob was no shining example of courage – sneaking away from Laban and servile in appeasing Esau; Gideon was another repeat coward in spite of much reassurance. Lot’s family’s bad decisions rest on each of their own heads. Lot’s wife stands alone in her rebellious turning back. His son’s in law were left to their own fate for refusing to hear the warning (and it was Lot that warned them). His daughters took matters into their own hands. It is apparent from Scripture that they each bore their own iniquity and Lot’s actions, though impacting them, did not force them to do what they did.

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  62. No, I’m not saying Lot’s actions forced them to do what they did . . . but they were within the influence of Sodom, and apparently affected by it.

    I’ve also heard it said that when Abraham gave Lot the choice of the land. Lot as the younger should have deferred back to Abraham. Well, I don’t know how their culture worked, if Abraham’s offer of first choice to Lot was “just being polite” and Lot should have refused it, or if Abraham’s offer was genuine and Lot was fine to accept it . . . sometimes we speculate beyond what Scripture tells us.

    Nevertheless, it’s hard to imagine young women who’d seen models of healthy family life, godly faith, etc. more than the alternative would have made the choice Lot’s daughters did. In much the same way, most young Christians today when they are in a dating relationship end up in fornication, though that wasn’t acceptable even among the world 50 years ago. (Not that it was never done, but that it wasn’t considered the norm and the right way to do things. Now it’s so normal that to do otherwise is considered weird and even foolish.) Whether or not Lot made the wrong choice in living in Sodom, it apparently did influence his family life.

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