Good Morning!
It’s Saturday!!! 🙂
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On this day in 322 BC Aristotle, the Greek philosopher, died.
In 1854 Charles Miller received a patent for the sewing machine.
In 1876 Alexander Graham Bell received a patent (U.S. Patent No. 174,465) for his telephone.
In 1911, in the wake of the Mexican Revolution, the U.S. sent 20,000 troops to the border of Mexico.
And in 1965 State troopers and a sheriff’s posse broke up a march by civil rights demonstrators in Selma, AL.
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Quote of the Day
“Everyone complains about the weather, but nobody ever seems to do anything about it.”
Willard Scott
🙂
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Today is Nikolay Artzibushev’s birthday. From incorporefestival
And tomorrow is Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach’s 301st birthday. From Voices of Music, a very talented bunch.
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Wandering Views 
A rare First! for me this Saturday after waking up at 2:30 a.m. (?) and (so far) not being able to get back to sleep … yet.
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🙂 Alright Donna!
Now get some sleep. 🙂
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I think someone said that before Willard Scott. Willard Scott used to be on radio station WRC in Washington with Ed Walker before he went on TV. They called themselves “The Joy Boys”. I think Willard Scott was the original Ronald McDonald.
Another radio personality, Jackson Weaver, of the Hardin and Weaver program on WMAL was the original Smokey Bear.
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Peter didn’t finish his 9:34 last night.
10. Be prepared to clean up everything between the toilet and front door.
11. Be prepared to be scratched in the eyes next time you pick up the cat.
So, for the glitter. That reminded me of the time -I was just a child- when we covered a Christmas tree with Angel Hair. We still had strands of angel hair in the house the following June.
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Chas 😆
Re: 1854 Charles Miller’s sewing machine patent mentioned above- Mrs L questioned that one, so we did a little research. Miller got the patent for the first machine to do button holes. She thought Isaac Singer had the first patent. Well, Singer’s was the first with an up and down motion, but he got sued by Elias Howe, who had the first American patent in 1846. There had been some European patents before any American patents.
Just thought I would clear up the historical info AJ provides for us.
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Glitter: D3 bought wrapping paper with glitter for Christmas 2013 and wrapped some presents in the minivan en route to a family gathering. I think there is still glitter in the car, even though I have vacuumed it.
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Glitter is something like rabbits.
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With two small granddaughters, our little apartment down here is constantly endowed with glitter. These days they are enthralled with stringing beads and buttons on colored pipe cleaners (haha – they now call them “fuzzy sticks”) and there are beads everywhere. I am amazed that these girls, who have a plethora of toys upstairs, always want to come down to “Grammy and Poppy’s house.”
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When doing children’s Sunday School, we were advised to use no glitter. I rarely used it, but once in awhile…a little glitter will last for a few years! Someone got smart and invented glitter glue so it does stay where you want it. We still had the old glitter left from years ago, and who can resist that once in a long while?
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On Wed. night Bible study we got into the question about if a person can lose their salvation. Generally, the Pastor said that Baptists are thought to believe, “Once saved, always saved.” He said that generally the Methodists believe you can lose it and then regain it. The Pastor used Scripture to say it is a mystery, but he believes it can be lost, but if that happens then it can never be regained. Any thoughts? I had not given this much thought myself so I am curious to hear other views.
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Maybe I need to sprinkle some glitter on Miss Bosley to keep her busy for a few years. The horse blanket, or saddle blanket, has not only kept her off the tv, but it has also kept husband from bothering with the tv. He gets home so late that there is no time for it anyways! I did renew the two movies we have not yet watched. Just hoping…♡…at least for our anniversary. But it looks doubtful. 😦
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Janice, most Baptists believe that once a person is born again, he can’t be lost again. It is mostly logic, based on Jesus’ statement that “no man shall pluck them out of my hand.”
And that when your name is written in the book of life, it can’t be erased.
However, we realize that sin doesn’t come free.
And Peter, in II Peter, Chapter 2 has some sobering comments. Read II Peter 2:19f for Peter’s view on this.
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these children have so much imagination. I got out my animal beanie babies, they call them stuffies, and they are busily creating a game and entertaining themselves. They didn’t even wake me up, just started playing….
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Pop, pfzzzsssssss.
That’s the sound of the can of worms Janice opened. 🙂 Watch where you step, worms go everywhere once they’re on the loose.
Great theological question for a Saturday, though!
I’ll get back to it with more, there’s so much to say, but the short version is that we Presbyterians stand firmly with the Baptists on that one.
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I don’t believe anyone or anything can take my salvation away–including me. Paul does tell us to make sure we are in Christ, however. Saying some words does not make it so. Only God knows hearts, including ours. There will be fruit and indications of life.
It was an issue for a relative who has mental illness. He was very concerned and will still go through questioning whether he can lose his salvation. It goes back to reading the Word and trusting. Are you trusting yourself or Jesus?
If I were trusting myself, I would live in terror. The fruit of the Spirit is peace, hope etc.
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Nothing wrong with a little glitter, either. Sorry the church would keep such great memories from children. Nice that the pens were invented, though. They don’t work for everything. God made a glittery world and neon colors to boot. 🙂
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Because it is God who regenerates and supernaturally breathes new life into us — we don’t/can’t do that for ourselves as we are “dead” in our trespasses and sins — our salvation is secure. It is His choice before the foundation of the world that saves us and we are “sealed” with the Holy Spirit of promise, it is a guarantee from God himself (Eph. 1:13-14).
And He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it (Phil 1:6).
Believers will persevere in the faith not because of how faithful we are but because of how faithful God is to fulfill his promise.
We will always struggle with sin, amen? (Or as my devotional said it this morning: “It’s what we are; we’re all failures. Own it.”) So thankfully our salvation doesn’t depend on how “good” I am in any given week or month or year or lifetime.
If I continue to flee to Christ, to repent and to rest in His grace (not on my goodness), that is the evidence that I am His.
There is some confusion over people who appear to be believers — they may regularly come to church and, from all outward appearances, be Christians — who then seem to “fall away.” They quite going to church, even renouncing a belief in God.
But the Bible tells us that these were never believers in the first place.
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And as kathaleena reminds us, we are also called to make sure of our calling, to ‘work out’ our salvation in fear and trembling — but the evidence that we are believers isn’t that we’re “good” people or are successfully achieving a certain moral standard in our behavior (sometimes we are, sometimes we’re not!); the evidence is that we continue to trust and believe in Jesus alone for our salvation.
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In other words, we can’t “lose” our salvation because, from the beginning to the end, it depends on God’s faithfulness, not on ours.
Thus true saving faith — a gift from God — although it may waiver and have its ups and downs, its strong seasons and weak seasons — ultimately perseveres to the end.
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God never waivers. But we do. 🙂 How good to know that He’s still holding on to us — when we aren’t holding on very tightly to Him — through all of our doubts and struggles.
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Flowers, my first glimpse registered as day lilies because that is what I see in my yard as orange. But those clearly are not day lilies. What has big leaves like that? Some iris have big leaves like that. How about some sort of water lily?
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Salvation: I was made alive through Christ, only He can kill me. Christ is not to be crucified twice. Those who have drifted away, never were alive in Him. It does not mean there won’t be sin, including the sin of drifting away, but to deny Christ is not a Christian attribute. What is the unforgiveable sin? Giving credit to Satan for the work of the Holy Spirit?
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Today’s morning walk was beautiful as ever. On the way back from the stop sign, the sun was rising to the left while the nearly full moon was setting to the right. Well, almost the same, it was closer a couple of days ago. We saw the coyote cross the road ahead of us again. On my right, I saw my reminder that God loves me and cares. As I walk, I can see the reflection or refraction or whatever it is, of light above my shadow. Daughter and I like to think it is our pillar of halo. Sometimes it is a solid pillar, other times it ripples like heat waves. I don’t know the scientific explanation, but to me it is a reminder that I am His and He is always with me.
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Glitter is something like rabbits.
And like coat hangers.
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I hate glitter! There, I said it 😉 Oh, sure, I can see how pretty it looks; but the brief prettiness isn’t worth the mess. Better to use foil, or metallic thread, or beads for sparkle – something that is cleaned up easier.
On Janice’s QoD: As a Baptist, whose pastors had Reformed leanings (my circle distinguished between Calvinist Baptists, who believed in the perseverance of the saints; and Arminian Baptists, who believed just as a one could decide to be saved, one could decide to walk away from that salvation – I am not sure how fair either characterisation was), I am firmly convinced that a saved person cannot loose their salvation. Nevertheless, my flesh constantly fears the possibility. I have mentioned before that I nearly went mad going through puberty, and that was the question which drove me to the brink. I became convinced that I had sinned the unforgiveable sin. It was a terrible time, and there is a portion of my mind which has been broken since. Fatigue and depression can bring it to the forefront again. If I didn’t have the rock of hope that Christ will not fail, I would probably be a gibbering idiot in an asylum somewhere.
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Coming back to Idaho, Phos?
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Re: Janice’s question- The “once saved, always saved” idea has been misinterpreted to mean one can walk the aisle and make a decision, then go on living like the world. This has filled the church with a lot of goats. The pastors have the problem of dealing with sinners who never got saved, but were led to believe they were saved because they went forward in an emotional evangelistic meeting, without ever meeting the Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe in the security of the believer, and the perseverance of the saints. But if one continues in sin, he or she is a sinner. 1 John has a good thought on this (from the NASB):
Chapter 2- “15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.”
Chapter 3- “4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.”
So we see that practicing (or continuing in) sin is what marks the unbeliever form the true believer. And the one who truly believes in God and follows Him cannot practice sin for a long period of time before the conviction of the Holy Spirit draws him back.
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Thinking and praying about it, Mumsee.
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Phos, I also hate glitter, perhaps for the outside area, but we don’t use it in my classroom. It never disappears!
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Such a can, overflowing, of worms!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Specifically, one passage we were covering was:
2 Peter 2:20
(NIV)
“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by KNOWING our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
I added emphasis on the word “KNOWING.”
This indicates in the beginning they were sinners with the prospect of being saved, and then were saved, and then gave themselves over to a sinful life, were overcome by that life, without regret or confession and repentance or remorse, so then they lost their salvation forever which is why they are worse off than at the beginning. I think that is how my pastor was viewing that, although I think he allows for some mystery since other verses seem to contradict. He had us reading both sides from various verses.
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The Holy Spirit is the down payment or earnest money of our salvation, and He seals us. Now, it’s possible for a human being to pay earnest money and not follow through on the sale; in which case, you lose your earnest money. But what God pays for is paid for. It isn’t us saving us, and it isn’t us keeping ourselves saved, it’s Him.
Or, in Paul’s words in Romans 8: “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
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Re glitter: I love it, and I don’t think glitter glue is the same thing. I have all sorts of colors of it.
When little girls came by my house in Chicago, I allowed them to use glitter occasionally, as a rare treat. Basically, if one or two children came by, it wasn’t worth cleaning up the mess. But if I had five or more children, then they could have fun and I could then clean it up and not get it out again for a while.
But they weren’t given access to the extra-fine glitters in all sorts of colors that I have.
Nor am I, actually. My husband has said he hates glitter. He doesn’t even know I have it (I had it before I had him). Maybe some day there will be some sort of opportunity to get it out again, but not in this house.
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On the 2 Peter passage, there is a knowledge of God & the gospel that is superficial — professed, perhaps, but those who are unrepentant and continue in their ways, I think it can be concluded, were never “enslaved” to Christ in the first place.
As kathaleena pointed out, if our salvation depends on how well we’re doing (and we’re all, at the least, short of perfection can we say?), we’re in trouble. It is our faith in Christ alone — and the repentance that follows when (not if) we do sin — that we need to examine.
We’re going through the Westminster Confession of Faith in our Sunday evening classes and touched on some of this last week.
One of the comments our pastor made: No sin is so small that it doesn’t deserve damnation. No sin is so great that it can’t be covered in the blood of Christ.
Other religions are works-based. Christianity is faith-based, it is on what God has done for us.
A Christ-centered understanding of our salvation means we have not contributed to our salvation, but that it is to be understood as a gift from God.
We also went through what is known as the “order” of salvation:
1. Election (God elects His own by his mercy before the foundation of the earth)
2. Effectual calling (God, at some point in history, irresistibly calls the person through — usually — the preaching of the gospel, or the reading of his Word)
3. Regeneration (the work of God in our hearts, commonly referred to as being “born again”)
4. Faith (it can only follow all of the above, it is not something we do or “find” or exercise on our own)
5. Justification (we are made “right” with God)
6. Sanctification (God begins the work of conforming us to Christ, and, yeah, it can be very slow-going with plenty of peaks and valleys — all reminding us to lean even more on God’s free grace)
7. Glorification (in eternity)
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Donna, my pastor in Nashville pointed out that the list actually includes adoption (which is rarely preached on). He preached a few sermons on the subject.
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Phos’ comment — Nevertheless, my flesh constantly fears the possibility (that salvation can be ‘lost’) — reminds me of something I heard which made a lot of sense.
Those who are saved are the only ones who will wrestle with that particular (and often anxiety-laden) question directed toward themselves.
Those who don’t believe, it was said, typically don’t worry about any of that — and if they’re superficial in their church-going and outward profession of faith, they also don’t wrestle with that ultimate question. They presume they’re “OK,” they don’t go very deep beyond that.
It’s a good question and one that believers shouldn’t ignore — we are to examine ourselves. While sin is always with us, we need to ask ourselves if we are fighting the good fight, repenting with sincerity — do we genuinely mourn our sin and desire to defeat it?
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cheryl, interesting — I was taking fast notes, I wonder if that was there and I missed it … because I also seem to remember as that being included
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It’s been a while since I’ve sat through classes/lectures on that particular topic. Good to get back to some of those doctrinal basics.
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When the Pastor was speaking on this, I said if they lose salvation it must be like they are an Indian giver (probably not politically correct, and these days would be called a Native American giver perhaps). I was referring to the gift of faith as being a gift from God, not earned. So they taste that gift and then give it back saying, “No thanks, I liked my old life better.” Pastor brought up the sower and the seeds, the ones that don’t firmly take root. He was really doing a great job covering this. I wish more could have been there. Only five of us were present. He expects more next week when the time changes means we don’t leave in the dark.
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Also, as a pastor once said, “If you’re worried about having committed the unpardonable sin, you haven’t.”
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That was five attendees plus Pastor made six.
I just got in a tangle with a rose bush trimming. It is a beautiful day, short sleeve t-shirt weather. I still am able to work up a sweat. I decided to trim some overgrown weeds and then decided I would trim the rose vines growing into the neighbor’s yard. As I was trying to carry the trimmings to the large collection trash can, the trimmings got attached to my shirt and jeans. Every move I made to get them unattached just moved them further around to my backside. As I got stuck numerous times, I decided Miss Bosley scratches are not nearly so bad in comparison. I am sure I would have made an America’s Most Funny Video as I attempted to get free. This, of course, was part of the Mother’s Day rose bush given to me by my MIL. We never got along very well so it felt like she was having a last word with me 😦 .
Somehow I finally got free after considering asking a neighbor to help. I decided that would not be good since they might get stuck, too. I can envision Lucy Ricardo now with her friend. And, also, as I was outside near the kitchen door, Miss Bosley was crying for me to come back inside with her. Now she is happy to be in my lap, but I need a shower to wash all my rose thorn wounds.
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After I wrote about getting stuck by the rose thorns, I went over to play a word on Words With Friends. The word my opponent played was, “HA.” That was the computer generated word since I do solo play. Not funny!!!!
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Janice, several years ago I hadn’t bought pants for a while (since styles went through several years of styles I wouldn’t wear, and so I had to wait several years to buy pants), and when I finally bought some, I got two pairs in the same style, except different colors.
Somehow the following summer I ended up in two separate incidents where I walked into rose bushes I didn’t see, and got tangled up. (One was at my sister’s house and I was playing with Misten in her backyard; I don’t remember what happened the other time.) Each time I was wearing one of those pairs of pants, different ones, and so I managed to tear both pairs of pants on rosebushes, my only times of entangling with the things as far as I can remember. Not fun.
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You’re making me think that glitter, like play dough, should be an outdoor art project.
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Jumping to the bottom to answer Janice’s question. I was taught in an Independent Methodist School that you should believe you CAN’T lose your salvation and live like you CAN.
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My phone has been making random noises. The tech had me take out the battery and put it back in. It came back on in Spanish. I am on the phone trying to get back to English!!!!
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The flowers are swamp irises
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How was the retreat, Kim?
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OK. We are back to English on the phone
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Before taking my nap, I read a little bit in James Montgomery Boice’s “Foundations of the Christian Faith” which includes a chapter titled The Keeping Power of God. I know, just some light reading, right?
But really good stuff in that chapter if you wanted to pursue the topic more (and it’s a one-volume “readable,” as it’s pegged, theology that’s handy to have around).
Among his points:
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“The doctrine of perseverance means that God who has begun a good work in electing and then calling an individual to salvation, according to his own good purpose, will certainly keep on that purpose until the person elected and called is brought home to the blessedness that has been prepared for him or her. If a person could be saved and then lost, there would be no blessedness in salvation, only anxiety. There could be no safety or happiness. But because God is doing the work and because it is God’s nature to finish what he starts, there can be perfect joy for the one who trusts him.”
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So left on our own, yes, we might turn down the mere offer of the gift or perhaps even just change our minds about it. But we’re not left on our own. God has elected and calls particular men and women specifically to himself. That calling is sovereign according to his will — and God’s grace is irresistible, despite our natural wayward hearts.
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I will tell you all about it later. I want to write out some things that I made note of to tell all of you.
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http://www.paghat.com/yellowiris.html
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Donna and Chas, finding that John Bunyan had many of the same struggles helped me realize that I was not some strange malformation in the Church – I also understand that Martin Luther had similar struggles. Some of these passages in Bunyan’s autobiography Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners describe exactly what I have experiences:
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Boice died somewhat unexpectedly of a heart attack, I think, in 2000, he was in his early 60s, and the pastor of Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. At the time of his death he served on the board of Bible Study Fellowship (he was the primary author of BSF’s Romans study notes which we had all just gone through that year, I believe) and had a radio program that is run on Christian radio. Ligonier still carries some of his writings and recordings.
I’ve had the theology book for a long time, it came out in the 1980s (I probably bought it in the ’90s), was a compilation of an earlier 4-volume theology set. It’s on kindle also.
http://www.christianbook.com/foundations-of-the-christian-faith-revised/james-boice/9780877849919/pd/9919
“Truly a well-reasoned and coherent systematic theology. Boice brings his respected wisdom and insights together into a beautiful exposition of Christian doctrine, proving that a strong God begets strong people, people capable of continuing God’s work in the world. Jesus told us to build our house on the rock, and Boice offers us a picture of God as the rock, the foundation, upon which all of history rests. His goal, in writing this book, was to help people know God better, and he succeeds, painting a vivid picture of the source of our strength.”
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Interesting roscuro, thanks for sharing that passage. And it would be reminiscent, I think, of Luther’s sometimes tortured spiritual experiences and journey to some degree.
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What Bunyan describes and what I experienced sounds very much like Obsessive-Compulsive disorder, classified as an Anxiety Disorder. This is what my textbook on Psychiatric-Mental Health Nursing says about the disorder:
‘OCD is characterised by recurrent obsessions (a persistent, painful, intrusive thought, emotion, or urge that one is unable to suppress or ignore) or compulsions (the performance of a repetitious, uncontrollable, but seemingly purposeful act to prevent some future event or situation), or a combination of both, that interferes with normal life. Currently, ODC is recognized as the fourth most common mental health diagnoses in the world, after depression, substance abuse, and phobia. Approximately 2.3% (3.3 million) of the U.S. adult population in all socioeconomic classes is afflicted with this disorder…
Common obsessive thoughts involve religion, sexuality, violence, the need for symmetry or exactness, and contamination. Everyone has experienced recurrent thoughts at one time or another… The difference is that obsessions are considered senseless or repugnant, and they cannot be eliminated by logic or reasoning…
Common compulsions include handwashing, avoidance of touch… swallowing, stretching, rocking, and hoarding… An ideational compulsion is an urge to carry out an act within ones mind. Examples of this type of compulsion are replicating words or speech in ones mind or drawing in ones mind… Resistance to the act increases anxiety. Yielding to the compulsion decreases anxiety, the primary gain.
…People with OCD generally have considerable insight into their own problems. Most of the time, they know their symptoms are senseless or exaggerated and not really necessary. However, this insight into their illness is not sufficient to enable them to control their thoughts or behavior…’
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On Luther:
” … Luther’s conversion and breakthrough involved the correct understanding of God’s righteousness. The phrase ‘(in the Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed”‘(Romans 1:17) had become the focal point of his struggle with God. Luther had long struggled to blamelessly keep God’s Law in order to become righteous. He knew that this is what God demanded of him and all people. Time and again he failed to keep God’s Law and achieve the righteousness that God demanded. …
“Whenever he came across the phrase ‘the righteousness of God’ in Scripture, it terrified him (‘struck my conscience like lightning,’ ‘was like a thunderbolt in my heart’) because he knew that he was an unrighteous sinner who fell far short of God’s righteous (perfect) demands.
“Even worse, Rom. 1:17, filled Luther with anger and hatred toward God. ‘I did not love, yes, I hated the righteous God who punishes sinners.’ Is it not enough, Luther tells us he murmured, that God crushes us miserable sinners with His law, that He has to threaten us with punishment through the Gospel, too?
“After meditating day and night, finally the breakthrough came when Luther gave heed to the words at the end of 1:17, ‘He who through faith is righteous shall live.’ Then he realized that the verse was not talking about the active righteousness that God demands, but the passive righteousness that He freely gives to those who believe the Gospel. The sinner is justified (declared righteous) by God through faith in the work and death of Jesus, not by our work or keeping of the Law. Put another way, the sinner is justified by receiving (faith) rather than achieving (works). Later Luther would say that we are saved by the alien righteousness of Christ, not by a righteousness of our own doing. …”
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/tower.html
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I was thinking of the descriptions of Luther’s struggles while he was in hiding after the Diet of Worms. He apparently used to yell at the devil and there was a legend that one time he threw an ink bottle at him.
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As to Janice’s question regarding the passage in I Peter (and there are corresponding passages in Hebrew 6 and 10), I think that what the author of Hebrews said about the children of Israel, at the end of chapter 3, clarifies to whom such passages apply: “But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.” Then the writer goes on through chapters 4 to 6 to give both encouragement and warning to his readers. Yet he is careful to say, “Beloved, we are persuaded better thing of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak”; and to reassure them of the power of God to keep them, “God… confirmed it by an oath: that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast…”
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Phos, I took a course on Luther at SWBTS. I understand the incident of throwing the ink bottle at Lucifer is real. It’s easy to understand his situation. Hiding from people (Satan) who want to kill him. But, in God’s purpose, he translated the Latin Bible into German and wrote “A Mighty Fortress”. Just as Paul’s stay in prison at Caesarea was not wasted.
Sometimes Spiritual problems mimic psychological problems. Sometimes a psychologist can’t help with a problem. It has to be dealt with spiritually.
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Chas, I think it may be a combination of a spiritual and physical (to do with the structures of the brain) disorder. My mother’s side of the family has a lot of struggles with anxiety – my grandfather suffered from what they used to call “shell shock”, I have an uncle who is a hoarder, and most of the family have a hard time dealing with change or crowds. There are times when I can tell that it is just my own anxiety causing me to have the thoughts; there are other times when it seems as if there is a more sinister presence that is attacking me. I try to ignore the former, by either changing my activity or getting the rest that I need; I have to battle the latter, and sometimes need to ask for someone else to pray in support.
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Truly, much spiritual warfare hsppens all the time. Probably some become more aware of it than others.
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I talked with my brother and found out that he, too, was pruning som, and he got caught in some thorny blackberry vines. I guess it runs in the family!
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I got the last word on Words With Friends, and I won!!!
HAHAHAHA
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Donna, Boice actually died of cancer, liver cancer I think. I knew he was terminally ill; I think he was present at a PCRT and it was announced there, or maybe I had already heard. But I remember when I heard he had died. I told my pastor Sunday morning. Now, my pastor was a middle-aged black man who had always been Baptist but was in the process of “becoming” Reformed; he’d even attended a pastors’ conference for Reformed pastors where he was one of only a couple of black pastors. So Sunday morning when I saw him I asked had he heard James Boice had died. He didn’t break down and cry, but I could see genuine pain in his face as he said no, no, he hadn’t heard and that’s a huge loss.
Boice is the best preacher I have ever heard. He would take a passage and illuminate it by concepts from multiple other Scripture passages. Instead of illustrating with a story from some TV show, he’d illustrate with something from the life of Moses, and even though you already knew the story, it would be eye opening how it fit this passage in Romans. When he finished preaching, you’d wish he could keep going another 45 minutes. I only heard him a few times, at three or four PCRT conferences, but thank God for him.
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Roscuro, William Cowper is another believer who struggled mightily, even spent time in institutions more than once. Serious doubt and depression, yet some of his hymns are amazing.
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Actually, what my pastor said was “oh man, oh man” or something like that; he was pretty much rendered speechless. Then he said he hadn’t heard and thanked me for telling him. I felt the loss all the more for seeing him respond to it, and my respect for both men was increased.
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Cheryl, I probably knew/heard that (that he’d died of cancer) at the time, just didn’t remember — to us (in BSF) the news that he’d died was a shock. I was with the OPC by then, but didn’t hear anything about his being sick through those circles at the time.
He was remarkable, the BSF Romans notes were excellent, though controversial for some members due to (what I believe was) his biblically sound position on election. There was some struggling going on in some of the discussion groups as I recall.
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Did he have a radio program? I may have heard him on the radio bsck when I listened a lot.
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He did, and I think it still runs — The Bible Study Hour
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/the-bible-study-hour/
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I remember now that I heard the news of his death at church that Sunday — but when I shared it during the BSF leaders’ meeting (Monday or Tuesday night, can’t remember which night we met now) no one else had heard about it.
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And, I have to say, while I enjoy (ultimately) having more daylight at the end of the day, this time change really is hard for me. So I guess I’d better get to bed …
http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/coping-with-time-changes
“Moving our clocks in either direction changes the principal time cue — light — for setting and resetting our 24-hour natural cycle, or circadian rhythm. In doing so, our internal clock becomes out of sync or mismatched with our current day-night cycle. How well we adapt to this depends on several things.
“In general, ‘losing’ an hour in the spring is more difficult to adjust to than “gaining” an hour in the fall. … “
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Wow! Is it really 7:00 already? Seems like I lost an hour somewhere along the way. 😦
Maybe I just got up on the wrong side of the bed. I know what I can do! Go back to bed and get up on the other side. Surely that will fix this problem of the lost hour. Hmmm…
Maybe I am having one of those Disorders of Time Changes. Thanks for the clue, Donna. 🙂
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Well, this bed is pushed up to the wall, so when I tried to get out of it on that side, I knocked some sense into my head. All is well.
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We have a prayer room at the front of the church where you can go to be prayed with during communion. During the weekend several people voiced concerns about what people would think of them as they went forward. There was discussion of all of us going en masse to the front for prayer to make the rest of the people wonder and others to be more comfortable.
Off to church to find out if we do it.
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seventy five
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Another beautiful walk but this time, the nearly full moon was high in the sky and no sign of the sun. It did come up eventually but not before I was back in the house feeding children.
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It doesn’t seem right, this time change.
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I remember Drill once wrote something about the time changes one spring. One of his lines was something like: “They say you get your hour back in the fall, but how do you know it’s your hour? Maybe they give you somebody else’s hour!”
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For cheryl:
A remote camera watching a bald eagle nest in Pennsylvania captured a heroic sight this week as two eagles braved a winter snow storm to keep their eggs safe and warm.
The Hanover “Eagle Cam” run by the Pennsylvania Game Commission, showed the male and female eagles taking turns sitting on the nest even as the snow piled up to the point of almost burying them.
Eagle cam: http://ow.ly/JYC1x
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As someone commented on FB, that’s some serious parenting
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I remember watching a pheasant hen guarding her eggs until my riding lawn mower was about twelve inches from her, then she blasted out and I swerved. So, actually, I barely saw her before she blasted.
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I, too, am very fond of the preaching of Dr. James Montgomery Boice and his program airs on our Christian station on Sunday mornings. I haven’t been able to find it anywhere lately, but used to have a copy of the letter he read to his congregation the week he found out that he was terminally ill and it was beautiful. The gist of it was that even if he had the power to change the situation, he wouldn’t because he knows that God knows best.
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I really did enjoy his Sunday morming programs when I listened. I use to wake up to Christian radio. I have gotten away from that. I am thankful for all the good teaching I got there. I use to wonder why it seemed more did not listen to the good preaching/teaching on the radio. But now I am in a church that gives me the kind of teaching I need, and I don’t listen to the radio much now. If I want music, I have plenty of good CDs to choose from. Does anyone here listen much to Christian radio?
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Janice& Donna. Elvera thinks they have taken an hour out of her life. She really believes that (though she hasn’t said this, it’s something I assume from her talk.)…. believes that if she should die before we change clocks again, that an hour has been taken from her life.
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A person at church said he adjusts his hour in thirty minute incements over time so it”s not such a shock to his system. That sounded pretty wise to me, but if people are on a really tight schedule without flexibility build in then they probably can’t do that.
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I will post this again tomorrow, but for today i need to ask for prayers for a young woman named Catherine who will be having a procedure on Tuesday in Denver to help her and her husband have a baby.
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Chas, I do think Elvera may be right about that. 😉
“They” keep messin’ with us.
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Christian radio is a real mixed bag, some good teaching, some not so good. I used to listen to it more in the car than I do now, but I still will tune in. I love Alistair Begg and R.C. Sproul, but am not always in the car (which is my primary radio-listening time) at those precise times to hear them.
I also have a Christian music (more popular, contemporary music) I listen to, The Message (but that’s on satellite radio) — it’s conducive to driving when I need something upbeat but want lyrics that will keep me more spiritually focused (much of the music isn’t what I’d want to necessarily hear in a Sunday worship service, but there are also some more contemporary pieces played that we do use in our worship service as well).
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We had our ministry fair today after church following a sermon on using our gifts 🙂 Happens once a year, it’s a way to encourage us to find ways to serve.
But Norma was pretty wan today, she was moving more slowly than usual and seemed tired — maybe the time change — so we scooted out right after the service. She goes back to her oncologist on Tuesday for what will be her first followup cat scan to see if any cancer is detected. Her surgery was in November and they said they got everything they could “see,” but you know how cancer can be … 😦 😦
She also has — for the most part — quit driving and I’m afraid she lets her groceries get way too low (and she’s still significantly underweight).
So question: Does anyone here use a grocery delivery service? I know Vons has it available, I’m going to check with Ralph’s too, which is where she’s used to going. She’s resistant about letting people take her shopping, doesn’t want to be a bother, so maybe a delivery set-up would be something she’d use.
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Hi all. I haven’t been around here much lately.
Good questions you asked yesterday, Janice, about losing one’s salvation.
Interesting that it looks like everyone who weighed in on the questions appears to support the “once saved, always saved” idea, if I’m understanding you correctly. I haven’t had a lot of time to read carefully, though, so forgive me if I’ve misread any of you.
I don’t wish to engage in debate (and don’t have time, anyway), but in a sincere spirit of inquiry, I would be interested to know how one reconciles the “once saved, always saved” viewpoint with Hebrews 6:4-6.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
My questions are, what does it mean to be “once enlightened,” or to “have tasted of the heavenly gift,”, or to have been “made partakers of the Holy Ghost”? Or the statements in verse five (to taste “the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.”)
To me, I look at the “partakers of the Holy Ghost” part, especially, and believe that that indicates the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a person’s heart. And since unbelievers do not have the indwelling of the Spirit, I believe that verse 4 is speaking to believers.
In other words, from these verses (and there are one or two other areas of the Bible with similar passages), it looks to me that a true believer can indeed reject the gift of salvation at any time while still alive on this earth.
If not, then who are the “those” referred to in verse four? Unbelievers? How can they be partakers of the Holy Ghost?
Thanks for your questions, Janice. They have stimulated good discussion, and encouraged me to delve further into the Scriptures, which is always a good thing.
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Janice,
What is your husband’s name, if you don’t mind sharing it. Just his first name is fine. 🙂
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Oh, and 100!!!!!
There. I already claimed it, so don’t none of you try stealin’ it. 😆
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How can you be 100 if I’m 93?
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Hi 6 Arrows, that passage is one that gives pause.
Those of us of the Reformed faith would say this still refers to those who were with God’s people, who enjoyed many of the benefits God bestows, but were not truly “of” God’s people; and that “partaking” refers to having some experience with the gifts of the Holy Spirit without having been regenerated (since those who are truly regenerate will persevere to the end, as Scripture otherwise teaches most emphatically).
Judas is probably the most vivid example.
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It’s Aj’s blog and if Aj wants 100, 100 he has.
Don’t nobody make no fuss about it.
😆
Remember. If it gets that far, jump over 100 and go to 101. That’s the way it works.
You say you didn’t number it?
Somebody does!
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cheater.
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I think Janice mentioned on the prayer thread once or twice that her husband’s name is Art. Don’t take my word for it, though — I don’t always remember things exactly right. 😉
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Hi Donna. 🙂
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And thanks for your input on my questions. 🙂
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The real 100!
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That Hebrews verse is a sticky one, and part of the problem with using it to say we can lose our salvation once we are saved is that it clearly also says we can’t get it back again–so we get one chance at salvation, and if we blow it, we’re lost forever. We’re going through Hebrews in Sunday school, and that verse came up briefly today (we’re not to it yet) and I whispered to my husband that that is one of the trickiest verses in all of Scripture. I think we spent at least a whole day on it in my class in Hebrews in college. It’s still a bit of a mystery to me what exactly it means.
But Scripture seems clear throughout that salvation is all God’s doing and not ours, so it really seems like a bad idea to grit my teeth and say, “Gotta keep myself saved, gotta keep myself saved.” That’s rather like a three-year-old looking around at the crowds at the fair and saying, “Wow, I could so easily lose my parents in all these people. I’d better keep track of them, or they’ll get lost, and then what will I do?” Then he makes a plan and tells his parents what he decided to do to keep everyone together.
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John 6:35-50 (NKJV)
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” . . .
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[a] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.”
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The Beloved Daughter is only .99 as an ebook for Kindle today. It is a great book about N. Korea. I have it on audio, too, and my husband got caught up in listening to the story, also. I have a review I did on it at Amazon.
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Like a three-year-old? I’ll just overlook that comparison and assure you I don’t live my life gritting my teeth, saying, “Gotta keep myself saved, gotta keep myself saved.” 😉
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The Hebrews verse was one my Pastor used also. I think it supports his view of it is possible to lose salvation and then you can never get it back. His family, one of his children, is going through a marriage/divorce situation where it seems this may be the case. The situation has probably caused him to really think deep about this. I think it is impossible for us to know if someone is just a backslider or if it could be a total loss of salvation. God is, after all, final judge. So to me that part is the mystery.
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cheryl, well said (6:39). My study footnotes indicated there have been several ways to interpret the Hebrews passage, including looking at it in a more specific context with regard to the Israelites in the wilderness …
But I, too, have to go back to the clear teaching of all of Scripture — that salvation is of God, not ourselves. It is He who holds onto and keeps us, not the other way around.
For those who appear to be backsliding or in a state of rebellion, they will return if they have been born again; they won’t if they haven’t been. We cannot really discern the spiritual state of a person in that case, based on our limited knowledge and “snapshot” of someone’s life now and just simply not knowing the beginning from the end of their story.
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6Arrows, in my reply to Janice on March 7, 8:01pm, I quoted the verses that follow that Hebrews 6:4-6 passage, “Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.” So, whatever the writer is talking of in that difficult passage, what follows would seem to indicate that he is not talking of people who are truly saved falling away. My old pastor, when he preached through Hebrews, said that Hebrews 6:4-6 was teaching how impossible it was to loose our salvation. He said that “If they shall fall away..” was some sort of clause in the Greek, which meant “If it were possible, which it isn’t,…”. He said that if we could fall away, then it would put the Son to open shame – so it isn’t possible. Then, he said where it talks about the good and bad soil is indicating that those who do fall away and never return were never saved in the first place. That is all the detail I can really remember, as it has been a few years.
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Our pastor always stresses that we have to let Scripture interpret Scripture — in other words, if a passage is unclear, we need to go to the rest of Scripture for clarity.
The Hebrews passage is a difficult one, but that’s why we should not use one passage alone on which to determine an entire teaching of the Bible.
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My husband’s name is Arthur, but he mostly goes by Art.
🙂
He is very tired lately, and I feel the second hand stress of tax season.
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It is 66 degrees here after dark! Spring advances!
My pastor did bring up that “if” part, too. All here are going through it much as he did. I think he was saying that if it could happen then it would be a lose it once and forever and that there is no returning.
Miss Bosley gets to go see the vet tomorrow. Wonder how much fun it will be getting her into her carrier. I know many here are envious and wish you could meet the challenge. Maybe my rose bush scratches will have company.
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Janice, the trouble with interpreting scripture in light of a family situation is that such situations, like personal anecdotes, can prove nearly anything. I can cite a case in my own family where a child made a profession of faith, was baptized, showed every indication of wanting to follow God, went away to school, got involved in drugs and immorality, denied her faith, lived for many years as a non-Christian, returned to church, repented and is now walking with the Lord. If she had heard such teaching, it may have made her feel like she could not come back. I know that every time I came across someone who held such views – having my problem made me study the Bible using every available source – I would break down again, because my worst fear seemed to have come true. I really understood Bunyan’s scene in Pilgrim’s Progress, where Christian sees the man in the cage in the House of the Interpreter, who says there is no more hope for himself; and it turned me sick with fear. I meant it when I said that where it not for my hope in the power of Christ’s death and resurrection, I would be completely insane.
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AJ
I sent you a couple of emails. 🙂
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Thanks for the answers. I should probably clear up some confusion, though, if there is any. I do believe that salvation is entirely the Lord’s work, and we bring nothing to the table (nothing we do can contribute to our getting saved).
I also believe that scripture interprets scripture, and that we should consider the full counsel of scripture, and not cherry-pick verses and build an entire doctrine on a single passage.
We’ve been taught (and I’m not saying it can’t be in error) that though we cannot be saved of our own volition, we CAN reject Christ and the salvation He offers. (Any of us, not just those who have never believed. We all have free will.)
I’m not sure if the passage near the end of Revelation had something to do with our church’s belief that salvation can be lost, but this verse — Rev. 22:19 — (“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”) almost sounds like a person’s name can be taken out of the book of life.
Does it mean the “any man” simply never had his name written in the book of life, or does it mean the “any man” did have it written in the book of life (which means “saved”, I think), but then had it removed?
That’s what “take away” sounds like to me — something that was there, and then was removed, rather than something that never was a reality.
Does that make sense?
What does it mean that “God shall take away his part out of the book of life”?
Sorry — I imagine the groans now that I’ve gotten to Revelation. 😉
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Anyway, I’m done on the computer now for the night, and don’t know when I can get back this week.
Have a good one, and stay out of the glitter. 😉
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Ha! I got one right!
I thought it was Art. 🙂 Thank you Janice. 🙂
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6 Arrows, using the three-year-old was definitely not meant to be offensive . . . we are much, much, much more dependent on God than a three-year-old is on his parents. I first wrote four-year-old and adjusted it to three-year-old to make the comparison just a tiny bit more apt. I could have said a newborn, but it’s just physically impossible for a newborn, so I used someone who can walk and talk and think . . . but who is so totally dependent on parents that the idea of the child taking charge of protection is ludicrous.
I also wasn’t meaning to suggest anyone actually says, “I’ve got to keep myself saved” . . . but the whole point is we can’t. Whether it’s screwing up our strength to keep ourselves saved or avoiding sin to keep ourselves saved, we can’t “keep ourselves saved” any more than we can save ourselves. We also have no more power to snatch away our salvation than that three-year-old has power to take himself out of his parents’ protection.
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Good luck with stuffing Bosley in that carrier. 😉
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Since we’re studying the Westminster Confession of Faith on Sunday nights at my church, I decided to check out the “perseverance of the saints” chapter in a commentary I’m using:
“When a person has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and truly converted unto Christ (by repentance and faith), is it possible to again become a child of wrath and of eternal destruction? The answer of the Scripture is clear and emphatic: no, it is not possible. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36) (and John 5:24). Here we have God’s Word for it that when a man has once exercised faith in Jesus Christ, he cannot come into condemnation any more. …
“It must be admitted that experience often seems to contradict this teaching. Who cannot think of someone who became a member of the church, giving evidence of great interest in divine things and sustaining zealous attendance upon the means of grace for considerable time, who yet, later on, fell away from the fellowship of Christ into complete neglect and even antagonism.
“Such a person indeed seems to have ‘fallen from grace.’ We say ‘seems’ because the apostle John tells us what really happens in such cases. ‘They went out from us,’ he said, ‘but they were not of us; for if they had been of us they would have continued with us … ‘ (1 John 2:19).
“Such cases prove not that believers can fall from grace, but only that we can be fooled by false appearances and professions. … “
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Cheryl, I know you didn’t intend it as an offense, and none was taken. I just did not understand your analogy. Thank you for clarifying.
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no heavy theological discussions here, just meeting the needs of a 3 and 5 year old. Haven’t done this for a very long time.
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