Chas, The Liberals may have ruined our education system, turned liberal churches into temples of perversion and even greatly weakened our military, but they haven’t stopped the oil and gas industry. Even if the Democrats banned all use of oil and gas, most other countries aren’t so stupid. We could export our West Texas light crude.
I am teaching Dr. Jones’ class while he is away. I thought I would post the outline of my lesson for tomorrow on this thread because it, though a Spiritual issue, is also political in nature. As is Islam, Israel/Judaea had no separation between politics and religion.
You may not be interested in this, but I invite any comments or suggestions.
Feel free!
6 July , 2014 Ezekiel 34:2-6, 11-16, 22-24
Read Ezek. 34:2-6 What is upsetting God? The shepherds of Judah were enriching themselves at the expense of the sheep.
Because of that, the sheep are scattered and lost. This is a prophesy against the shepherds. The shepherds of Judah were the King and Priests. The people didn’t have to follow them, but most did. (Israel fell into idolarty. To Elijah, “7000 men who haven’t worshipped Baal”. Eventualy, God had enough and sent Israel into captivity 740 B.C. About 134 years after Israel falls, Judah. Captivity a process not an event.
Daniel, 605 BC into captivity. Ezekiel, 598. Here, Judah in captivity because the shepherds misled sheep. The sheep willingly followed.
So? Who are our shepherds? The obvious answer is our pastors and politicians. For those who don’t attend church, no pastors. Are politicians shepherds? To whom do they answer? They answer to lobbyists and poll numbers. Thist shouldn’t be; but we (our culture) is also being led by news and entertainment media. Those are wrong shepherds to follow. Blind leading the blind.
Some time ago, Joseph Overton devised a method of designating a range of policies acceptable to people. The range of acceptable options is mostly for politicisns, what they think they can support and still win re-election. Thait is, how ideas change in society.
The degrees of acceptance of public ideas can be described roughly as:
1. Unthinkable
2. Radical
3. Acceptable
4. Sensible
5. Popular
6. Policy This is the world’s method of writing sin out of existence.
A couple of Sundays ago, I mentioned how the movies have changed. Sidekick to Gene or Roy. Then, 1939. GWTW moved the window.
In 1957 in Ft. Worth. Stores open on Sunday.
Prayer in Jesus’ name, and the cross in public places.
There was a time when homosexual practice was considered unthinkable. Unacceptable. Now, they redefine marriage. Policy Where does it end? (Read excerpt from Times.) Homosexuality is not only tolerated, it is celebrated in some churches. SBC not immune. (article in “Biblical Recorder”)
A time was when abortion was unthinkable. Desparate women went to desparate lengths. In 1973, Roe V. Wade was declared based of a right to privacy. Now, the right to not offer it in insurance policies had to be defended (Hobby Lobby). Birth control bought at pharmacy. ( paper) Now a campaign issue (Sandra Fluke).
No end to it. You can think of your own examples:
Superbowl halftime, a “wardrobe malfunction”. Raised a fuss. Small thing. Fuss needed to be made. Or Miley Cyrus would be wearing sheer bras.
Problem is, no end to it. There is no bottom to which it is enough. Prov. 30:15:16, Four things never say, “enough”, grave, barren womb, dry earth, fire. I might add the depth to which sin can sink. Often disguised as “good”.
Be careful not to allow any issue, no matter how trivial, to be passed on Shiria Law.
This concept is important because it shapes our lives and concepts of what is right and wrong. It defines sin out of existance.
So? What happens to the sheep? Read Ezekiel 34:11-16,
V. 11 is the key to this section. Important and it changes the subject. That is, not the sins of the shepherds and the wanderings of the sheep. But the Shepherd of all will search out and bring back His sheep. This is his doing. Remember that Hosea had an adulturous wife, illustrating Isreal. He never begs his wife to come back. He says, “I will buy her back and she will be mine”. (Hos. Ch.3) Not spending much time on this because next week is the Valley of the Dry Bones. Same subject and the entire lesson. But here, God says he will judge between the sheep. (v.18 not in text) Some have deliberately trod down the good pasture and fouled the water (v.18). While being led astray, the sheep, themselves are defiling their world.
Read Ezekiel 34: 22-24 Promises a new Shepherd. This is David, whom I believe is Jesus who will establish an everlasting kingdom. (‘Son of David” Matt. 9:27, 12:23, etc.) Not part of the lesson, but God promises “showers of blessing” and “they will be secure in their land”. v. 26-27. This hasn’t happened yet. But it is a promise of God.
More Hobby Lobby fallout — the Supreme Court is asking lower courts to reconsider judgments despite their own insistence on the narrow parameters of their ruling. Ginsberg warned in her dissent that this ruling wanders into a minefield and as the court continues to expand its “limited scope” they are marching into it. And the female supremes are not impressed.
Hobby Lobby, just like Chick-fil-a are run by religious (Christian) people. But it doesn’t matter. A company should, regardless of the reason, not be required to provide a service of which it disapproves. Yes, all of them.
I tried to find the issue described in the 11:51. But I read it the same, with or without the period.
I wonder though, are these corporations religious or just using religion to push forward a libertarian vision of capitalism?
There was no ACA a few years ago. Apparently, it’s now just assumed that it’s entirely in the govt’s rightful purview to mandate companies provide coverage for a litany of items. And when some companies protest a small few of those items for conscientious reasons (not that the reasons should matter), they’re “pushing forward a libertarian vision of capitalism” or some such. Isn’t that ridiculous?
Also, there’s no hypocrisy on HL’s part in this stuff, and the “bombshell” regarding 401ks as exposed by Mother Jones is the most overblown hysteria in all this thing. People are out of touch and/or overeager to find something to criticize HL and its supporters. Get a grip, folks.
Solar – There was no ACA a few years ago. Apparently, it’s now just assumed that it’s entirely in the govt’s rightful purview to mandate companies provide coverage for a litany of items.
Exactly.
It comes with the territory of government presuming now to control our health care.
Chas, that should be an interesting class – do you typically get a lot of discussion?
I agree compensation should be between a corporation (and its agents) and an employee (and its agents) with the gov’t playing only a minimal role (eg min. wage, health and safety standards, etc) Although HL may be sincere in its beliefs, some of its co-plantiffs (check the quote from Eden Organics) seem rather cynical in its use of religion to marginalize the gov’ts role. And its the question of sincerity or opportunism which is raised when the complaint is found to be investing in the very contraceptive they declare to be equivalent to an abortion.
When the Supreme Court failed to investigate sincerity nor substantial, they may have opened up the religious exemption far more than their stated narrow scope. I
When I think of Ezekiel and the act of God’s people being carried off to other lands, I think of the issue of ‘light’ and ‘salt’. God’s people were no longer light and salt to the world. Therefore, their purpose was gone for the time being. I think about this in relation to the church in today’s world. If we are no longer light and salt, is our time at an end? Sadly, we have become so divided, that a non-believer doesn’t know what to believe.
I am not sure that politicians or the media should be considered at all as ‘shepherds.’ That is not to say that they are not influential. However, it seems to me the ‘shepherds’ were those who spoke for God. In Israel there was a theocracy. Here we do not have that. Nevertheless, the church is to influence the society as light and salt. Too often, the world is influencing the church. The shepherds seem to me to be those in the church who are to make sure the teaching is really biblical.
I do understand what you are saying, Chas. Unfortunately, it is often the blind leading the blind WITHIN the church. I would expect that to be the case outside the church. The problem is within churches. (of course, like you, I am speaking of Christian churches.)
Kathaleena, I often think that the church has failed in our country — grown weak and diluted, influenced too much by the world, ashamed of the gospel. Some churches have been so influenced they’ve yanked themselves completely outside of the faith itself. I was struck yesterday as I drove along our coastline by the numbers of once-mighty mainline church edifices still standing, so beautiful, but no longer preaching the law or gospel.
And the church as a whole, I’m afraid, has grown complacent in a nation where a polite “civil religion” (with just enough Christianity sprinkled in) has made life so comfortable. The church, in many ways, has been coasting for years. In that sense, I have hope in what is happening — that it will serve as a wakeup call to those of us in the church.
An openly (and growing) hostile culture may be one way God will use to revive and strengthen his people.
hwesseli: Isn’t it time to phrase it properly? Hobby Lobby isn’t investing in contraceptive companies. They’re facilitating 401ks. An investor makes profit off his investment. Do you assert Hobby Lobby has holdings in abortion providing companies? What nefarious motives do you ascribe to HL’s 401k options? How do you suppose they profit from them? You think they’d suffer at all by dropping those investments (via altering mutual fund choices)? They may simply never have thought 401k options through. Now maybe they will. But the way HL has been painted vis a vis this 401k thing is nothing short of stupid.
And you express irreconcilable sentiments. You can’t simultaneously believe a company should be free to do what it wants with its capital (with possible exceptions as you list), then find fault with other companies voicing similar concerns to HL. Their true motives should be irrelevant, as they shouldn’t be forced into ANY of this stuff.
As I understand our freedom of religion, the government should make no pronuncimentos about theology. Theology is the business of churches. Government is in the business of running our bodies politic. Politics makes for bad theology; theology makes for bad politics.
If there is a private way to do things and has been done that way before, then government should stay out of that business or thing. For instance, pre-schools/nursery schools. Government should not be in the business of pre-schools/nursery schools. If private business is doing pre-schools/nursery schools then there is no reason for the government to step in.
Last night after the fireworks show at the jetty/breakwater of the harbor, everybody was trying to leave a very congested area. Some people went straight ahead, some turned left, some right. It took an extra 10 or fifteen minutes to get out of town and get home. I saw more cars on our little 2 1/2 – 3 mile stretch of divided Freeway last night than ever before.
Too bad we didn’t have a trolly to walk an extra 10 minutes to get to so we could then ride the mass transit to a parking lot so we could get into our cars for the remainder of the trip home.
The 401k issue arises because they had options and many corporations and non-profits make use of ethical investors or mutual funds. Instead they invested according to profit which is their prerogative. But having done so, they can’t turn around and claim a religious exemption to the contraceptive mandate. The only consistent motive here is profit, not religious freedom.
As I stated before I don’t think the gov’t should decide compensation but I question this particular decision which sets a precedent. And ironically it inserts the gov’t, in the form of the judiciary, into the personal beliefs of individuals. Not only do I think compensation is between employer and employee I also think health care is between patient and doctor with gov’t footing the bill. In this decision, we compounded the original problem of the ACA with even more govt’ intervention. When a activist judiciary asserts the sincerity and substantial nature of belief there will be long term problems. Bob mentions this as a problem and this will be a legacy of the this decision.
A better recourse would be through the legislature and a change in the nature of health care payment. That requires patience and effort which seem to be in short supply. In health care, the best way to deliver it to the populace has been repeatedly shown to be some form of gov’t plan. If private means were better, the American system would deliver far better results and efficiencies than it does. Just like gov’t can deliver mass transit they can deliver mass health care.
hwesseli: They “invested according to profit”? What do you mean by that? How did Hobby Lobby profit? Come on. Explain the nefarious motive. And are you aware of numerous other HL practices that do lend credence to their sincerity, or have you intentionally remained ignorant like the scores of HL critics who seem to live for spewing invective at anyone claiming Christian motives? You think the sincerity test (which shouldn’t even be relevant) all boils down to a small portion of where *employee* 401k funds are allocated?
HL’s bringing this case has nothing to do with whether they or other Christians are trying to intervene in the health care of individuals. I swear folks just can’t give that a rest.
You say the best approach would be more govt. I say that’s garbage. But that’s more of a different topic.
Here’s a critique of Hobby Lobby that’s so lopsided and blinded by antipathy it’s actually funny. And notice how the popup decries the SCOTUS decision as a ruling “against women.” It would be hilarious if it weren’t tragic.
The best healthcare plans (Singapore, Switzerland, Holland, etc.) are clearly not single payer. The governments in those three countries spend a lower percentage of GDP on healthcare than does the US (as does every other government on the face of the earth.
The thing that bothers me most about ACA is that no one is being honest. The Democrats are lying as usual. The Republicans and Fox aren’t giving the people the big picture because they don’t think Americans can handle the truth (they probably can’t). Here is part of the big picture: http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/unfolding-fiscal-disaster_796086.html
solar — they invested with the sole objective of making money when ethical alternatives were available. As a business this is a perfectly defensible action however they then can’t say they ethical problems with paying for contraception coverage. They’ve now discovered a non-monetary motive which they previously did not possess. This should at least raise questions. The dailyKos article is a bit hyperbolic but raises the same issue — consistency. It appears HL is only positing Christian values when it saves them money whereas if there’s money to be made, than Christianity takes a back seat.
Ricky — you’re right, the ACA and the earlier version in Romney’s Mass. are both based on the Swiss example which was advocated by the Republican party in the nineties. A publicly run exchange market offering various private insurance plans. I’m quite sure the Dutch have a public option along with private insurance. And given the Swiss made their system run well, the ACA should work if they had more cooperation from both the public and private sectors. My preference for single payer is based on my own experience and for the fact it would be far simpler with less chance of court challenges as it simply pays the bills.
FDR employed executive orders at a rate of at least one a day. And because of his willingness to employ the heavy hand (or in a more positive manner, exercise strong leadership). I wonder if the weekly standard wished Obama to exercise the same forceful approach to presidential power.
” … What can we make of a United States where a demand for ‘free’ birth control has become a central plank in the platform of a major political party? As John Hawkins wrote (see The Week In Pictures): ‘Hysterically demanding that the government force people to pay for your birth control doesn’t exactly say, ‘strong, independent woman.’
“In the long run, our freedom is most threatened by such cultural decay. But in the meantime, the biggest danger comes from the unelected, unaccountable fourth branch of government. The fourth branch, the permanent bureaucracy, chips away at our freedom on almost a daily basis. Thus, at 4:15 on July 3, the Obama administration released 1,300 pages of new Obamacare regulations. What do they say? No one knows. I mean that literally. … “
hwesseli: You simply keep insisting something that is not only trivial, but wrong. Hobby Lobby did not make money off of the 401k options they made available to their employees. I think now you’re just trolling. You think closing on Sundays saves HL money? You’re trolling. Or ignorant.
HRW, Would you really want your only healthcare option to be provided by the same government that administers our Veteran’s healthcare system and conducted the Iraq War and occupation?
It used to be that all the SS classes in SBC churches were segregated. But that ended several decades ago. Ours is all men, but it just happens that way. There is a ladies class and s mixed class in our department. Most classes of young people are mixed now. Though I usually taught men. .
I have taught 1178 SS lessons as of today.
We do a combined adult SS after church, but it’s in a Q&A format so kind of a free for all with the pastor or whoever gave the sermon leading and answering. It’s a sharp group so the questions are good and challenging, often times taking us in unexpected directions.
Solar — if they made or lost no money, then its okay to offer their employees a 401K which allows the employees to profit from birth control they consider to be an abortifact?? But HL considers it against their religion to pay for the same contraception. So paying for an abortifact is against their religion but offering their employees the opportunity to profit from this contraception is okay?? I’ve been posting here too long to be considered trolling I’m genuinely confused how one can accept this as consistent behavior. Personally, I think they should campaign for legislative change not an activist judiciary. As it now stands, this ruling will allow religious exemptions for almost anything and thus I wait for a line of Rastafarians, Mennonites, Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims to form outside the court. And given their previous decision on sidewalk restrictions, the barrier outside the court house might have to come down and allow the line up to start a little closer to the Court than they might like.
Ricky — It appears you admit the Swiss et al are able to establish a perfectly fine health care system but the US gov’t is incapable of copying it. Does this mean you think other countries are in fact better than the US (Personally I have no doubt whatever the Swiss can do the Americans can do too). If you have such little faith in the US gov’t do you trust them with the largest military ever assembled. Perhaps given your little faith in the US gov’t you should be advocating for disarmament.
1. First, the Swiss do not have a single payer system. It is largely a private insurance system.
2. Yes, I do think the Swiss are able to do many things that the US is now incapable of doing. These would include creating and maintaining: a. An affordable military.
b. A decent public education system.
c. A rational foreign policy.
d. An intelligent immigration policy.
3. The US government can no longer perform most of the basic functions of government. It is an ineptocracy:
4. Since I favor Texas Independence and Southern Secession, I am certainly not opposed to Yankee disarmament. However, the feminist, homosexual US military of the future will be more comical than threatening.
hwesseli: Pick a claim and stick to it. You’ve been making posts that HL has profited from the company’s 401k contributions. That’s false, although I’m sure you won’t be retracting. Now you’ve done better by pointing out the inconsistency in objecting in one instance (ACA) but not another. But you still fail to acknowledge the considerable difference *in essence* between the two. With ACA, HL *would be* paying for abortions (according to their beliefs). Not so with the 401ks. You strain a gnat to point to a very small consideration regarding HL’s sincerity–as if it could be solely determined by this single 401k item–but fail to demonstrate knowing anything about HL *beyond* this item. It’s as if no matter what other practices they’ve engaged in, they’re all defeated by a small percentage of a few funds available in their 401k program. That’s nothing short of tunnel vision.
It may be that this ruling invites various headaches. That’s not HL’s fault. They operate with the means they’re given. Blame govt overreach and overlegislating. That’s what causes headaches like this. It always does.
ricky — I know its a private insurance scheme monitored and promoted by gov’t exchanges. The ACA is based on the Mass model which is based on right wing proposals from the 90s which in turn is based on the Swiss model ( and as we move from one model to an other changes were made). Because of this, the ACA could be successful if there was more cooperation in government, insurers and corporations.
I’m not surprised you have so little faith in gov’ and the US gov’t in particular — the US military does need to slim down and become more focused. Right now its mass nature makes it a giant bureaucracy and yes social experiment but not the way you think. Its become the catch all for the undereducated, the poor, disenfranchised, marginalized, etc. However, the US military in certain branches is on the cutting edge of technology and strategy and therein lies its strength. The US military probably wouldn’t suffer additional threats to its security if it slimmed down and reduced its social welfare function but then the US gov’t would have to do something its ideological incapable of doing — establish a social welfare state to replace the army – and without it there would be some internal problems.
solar — we’ve done so give and take here. I’ve modified my claims based on your clarifications and we’ve become focused on one particular aspect more than necessary but I think we both can see the inconsistencies of HL’s position and we can see the headaches coming. I don’t blame HL but I do think they are inconsistent and may even be cynical in their use of religion in this particular case. And I do think this is a pyrrhic victory which invites even more gov’t overreach — in this particular case the judiciary branch.
And “inconsistencies” is overstating it. This is *one* allegation, and you ignore all counterevidence in order to ascribe sinister motive. Why? The 401k thing is relatively trivial–it’s a very small–tiny, really–portion of HL’s position and their business practices. Criticism to the degree most (you?) have made of HL on its basis is *way* overblown.
The US Army, under the draft, was indeed“Its become the catch all for the undereducated, the poor, disenfranchised, marginalized, etc.” in that you had to be 18 and pass a physical. That’s when I served. (My father was an elementary school principal, my mother an elementary school teacher. My sister got the first Ph.D in computer gaming.)
I know a 10 year active duty and 10 year Army reservist who got called back to serve in Iraq. He was in military intelligence. He was on a 10,000 ft. mountain top listening to the 2 sides in Kosovo who were fighting. I don’t know what he did in Iraq, but I am sure he saw real action there.
Today he is the head repair man at Epson printers. Last time I talked with him he was also the one from the Head Office here in the USA who went to their Call Center in the Philipines to check on it. I think he is the one who writes the English repair manuals for Epson printers here in the USA.
“…the undereducated, the poor, disenfranchised, marginalized, etc.”, I think not.
Wandering Views 
FIRST!!! That’s the first time here on the “new” blog!
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Here is some good news:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-04/u-s-seen-as-biggest-oil-producer-after-overtaking-saudi.html
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Never happen Ricky. Not as long as Obama can prevent it.
Maybe in a couple of years????
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Chas, The Liberals may have ruined our education system, turned liberal churches into temples of perversion and even greatly weakened our military, but they haven’t stopped the oil and gas industry. Even if the Democrats banned all use of oil and gas, most other countries aren’t so stupid. We could export our West Texas light crude.
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I am teaching Dr. Jones’ class while he is away. I thought I would post the outline of my lesson for tomorrow on this thread because it, though a Spiritual issue, is also political in nature. As is Islam, Israel/Judaea had no separation between politics and religion.
You may not be interested in this, but I invite any comments or suggestions.
Feel free!
6 July , 2014 Ezekiel 34:2-6, 11-16, 22-24
Read Ezek. 34:2-6 What is upsetting God? The shepherds of Judah were enriching themselves at the expense of the sheep.
Because of that, the sheep are scattered and lost. This is a prophesy against the shepherds. The shepherds of Judah were the King and Priests. The people didn’t have to follow them, but most did. (Israel fell into idolarty. To Elijah, “7000 men who haven’t worshipped Baal”. Eventualy, God had enough and sent Israel into captivity 740 B.C. About 134 years after Israel falls, Judah. Captivity a process not an event.
Daniel, 605 BC into captivity. Ezekiel, 598. Here, Judah in captivity because the shepherds misled sheep. The sheep willingly followed.
So? Who are our shepherds? The obvious answer is our pastors and politicians. For those who don’t attend church, no pastors. Are politicians shepherds? To whom do they answer? They answer to lobbyists and poll numbers. Thist shouldn’t be; but we (our culture) is also being led by news and entertainment media. Those are wrong shepherds to follow. Blind leading the blind.
Some time ago, Joseph Overton devised a method of designating a range of policies acceptable to people. The range of acceptable options is mostly for politicisns, what they think they can support and still win re-election. Thait is, how ideas change in society.
The degrees of acceptance of public ideas can be described roughly as:
1. Unthinkable
2. Radical
3. Acceptable
4. Sensible
5. Popular
6. Policy This is the world’s method of writing sin out of existence.
A couple of Sundays ago, I mentioned how the movies have changed. Sidekick to Gene or Roy. Then, 1939. GWTW moved the window.
In 1957 in Ft. Worth. Stores open on Sunday.
Prayer in Jesus’ name, and the cross in public places.
There was a time when homosexual practice was considered unthinkable. Unacceptable. Now, they redefine marriage. Policy Where does it end? (Read excerpt from Times.) Homosexuality is not only tolerated, it is celebrated in some churches. SBC not immune. (article in “Biblical Recorder”)
A time was when abortion was unthinkable. Desparate women went to desparate lengths. In 1973, Roe V. Wade was declared based of a right to privacy. Now, the right to not offer it in insurance policies had to be defended (Hobby Lobby). Birth control bought at pharmacy. ( paper) Now a campaign issue (Sandra Fluke).
No end to it. You can think of your own examples:
Superbowl halftime, a “wardrobe malfunction”. Raised a fuss. Small thing. Fuss needed to be made. Or Miley Cyrus would be wearing sheer bras.
Problem is, no end to it. There is no bottom to which it is enough. Prov. 30:15:16, Four things never say, “enough”, grave, barren womb, dry earth, fire. I might add the depth to which sin can sink. Often disguised as “good”.
Be careful not to allow any issue, no matter how trivial, to be passed on Shiria Law.
This concept is important because it shapes our lives and concepts of what is right and wrong. It defines sin out of existance.
So? What happens to the sheep? Read Ezekiel 34:11-16,
V. 11 is the key to this section. Important and it changes the subject. That is, not the sins of the shepherds and the wanderings of the sheep. But the Shepherd of all will search out and bring back His sheep. This is his doing. Remember that Hosea had an adulturous wife, illustrating Isreal. He never begs his wife to come back. He says, “I will buy her back and she will be mine”. (Hos. Ch.3) Not spending much time on this because next week is the Valley of the Dry Bones. Same subject and the entire lesson. But here, God says he will judge between the sheep. (v.18 not in text) Some have deliberately trod down the good pasture and fouled the water (v.18). While being led astray, the sheep, themselves are defiling their world.
Read Ezekiel 34: 22-24 Promises a new Shepherd. This is David, whom I believe is Jesus who will establish an everlasting kingdom. (‘Son of David” Matt. 9:27, 12:23, etc.) Not part of the lesson, but God promises “showers of blessing” and “they will be secure in their land”. v. 26-27. This hasn’t happened yet. But it is a promise of God.
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A fourth of July question — does punctuation make a difference; http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/us/politics/a-period-is-questioned-in-the-declaration-of-independence.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSumSmallMediaHigh&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=2
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More Hobby Lobby fallout — the Supreme Court is asking lower courts to reconsider judgments despite their own insistence on the narrow parameters of their ruling. Ginsberg warned in her dissent that this ruling wanders into a minefield and as the court continues to expand its “limited scope” they are marching into it. And the female supremes are not impressed.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/04/female-justices-get-together-to-write-blistering-dissent-of-new-contraceptive-case/
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/03/corporations-race-into-ginsburgs-minefield-to-claim-post-hobby-lobby-religious-exemptions/
I wonder though, are these corporations religious or just using religion to push forward a libertarian vision of capitalism?
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Hobby Lobby, just like Chick-fil-a are run by religious (Christian) people. But it doesn’t matter. A company should, regardless of the reason, not be required to provide a service of which it disapproves. Yes, all of them.
I tried to find the issue described in the 11:51. But I read it the same, with or without the period.
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I wonder though, are these corporations religious or just using religion to push forward a libertarian vision of capitalism?
There was no ACA a few years ago. Apparently, it’s now just assumed that it’s entirely in the govt’s rightful purview to mandate companies provide coverage for a litany of items. And when some companies protest a small few of those items for conscientious reasons (not that the reasons should matter), they’re “pushing forward a libertarian vision of capitalism” or some such. Isn’t that ridiculous?
Also, there’s no hypocrisy on HL’s part in this stuff, and the “bombshell” regarding 401ks as exposed by Mother Jones is the most overblown hysteria in all this thing. People are out of touch and/or overeager to find something to criticize HL and its supporters. Get a grip, folks.
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Solar – There was no ACA a few years ago. Apparently, it’s now just assumed that it’s entirely in the govt’s rightful purview to mandate companies provide coverage for a litany of items.
Exactly.
It comes with the territory of government presuming now to control our health care.
Chas, that should be an interesting class – do you typically get a lot of discussion?
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I agree compensation should be between a corporation (and its agents) and an employee (and its agents) with the gov’t playing only a minimal role (eg min. wage, health and safety standards, etc) Although HL may be sincere in its beliefs, some of its co-plantiffs (check the quote from Eden Organics) seem rather cynical in its use of religion to marginalize the gov’ts role. And its the question of sincerity or opportunism which is raised when the complaint is found to be investing in the very contraceptive they declare to be equivalent to an abortion.
When the Supreme Court failed to investigate sincerity nor substantial, they may have opened up the religious exemption far more than their stated narrow scope. I
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When I think of Ezekiel and the act of God’s people being carried off to other lands, I think of the issue of ‘light’ and ‘salt’. God’s people were no longer light and salt to the world. Therefore, their purpose was gone for the time being. I think about this in relation to the church in today’s world. If we are no longer light and salt, is our time at an end? Sadly, we have become so divided, that a non-believer doesn’t know what to believe.
I am not sure that politicians or the media should be considered at all as ‘shepherds.’ That is not to say that they are not influential. However, it seems to me the ‘shepherds’ were those who spoke for God. In Israel there was a theocracy. Here we do not have that. Nevertheless, the church is to influence the society as light and salt. Too often, the world is influencing the church. The shepherds seem to me to be those in the church who are to make sure the teaching is really biblical.
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I do understand what you are saying, Chas. Unfortunately, it is often the blind leading the blind WITHIN the church. I would expect that to be the case outside the church. The problem is within churches. (of course, like you, I am speaking of Christian churches.)
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Kathaleena, I often think that the church has failed in our country — grown weak and diluted, influenced too much by the world, ashamed of the gospel. Some churches have been so influenced they’ve yanked themselves completely outside of the faith itself. I was struck yesterday as I drove along our coastline by the numbers of once-mighty mainline church edifices still standing, so beautiful, but no longer preaching the law or gospel.
And the church as a whole, I’m afraid, has grown complacent in a nation where a polite “civil religion” (with just enough Christianity sprinkled in) has made life so comfortable. The church, in many ways, has been coasting for years. In that sense, I have hope in what is happening — that it will serve as a wakeup call to those of us in the church.
An openly (and growing) hostile culture may be one way God will use to revive and strengthen his people.
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hwesseli: Isn’t it time to phrase it properly? Hobby Lobby isn’t investing in contraceptive companies. They’re facilitating 401ks. An investor makes profit off his investment. Do you assert Hobby Lobby has holdings in abortion providing companies? What nefarious motives do you ascribe to HL’s 401k options? How do you suppose they profit from them? You think they’d suffer at all by dropping those investments (via altering mutual fund choices)? They may simply never have thought 401k options through. Now maybe they will. But the way HL has been painted vis a vis this 401k thing is nothing short of stupid.
And you express irreconcilable sentiments. You can’t simultaneously believe a company should be free to do what it wants with its capital (with possible exceptions as you list), then find fault with other companies voicing similar concerns to HL. Their true motives should be irrelevant, as they shouldn’t be forced into ANY of this stuff.
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As I understand our freedom of religion, the government should make no pronuncimentos about theology. Theology is the business of churches. Government is in the business of running our bodies politic. Politics makes for bad theology; theology makes for bad politics.
If there is a private way to do things and has been done that way before, then government should stay out of that business or thing. For instance, pre-schools/nursery schools. Government should not be in the business of pre-schools/nursery schools. If private business is doing pre-schools/nursery schools then there is no reason for the government to step in.
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Last night after the fireworks show at the jetty/breakwater of the harbor, everybody was trying to leave a very congested area. Some people went straight ahead, some turned left, some right. It took an extra 10 or fifteen minutes to get out of town and get home. I saw more cars on our little 2 1/2 – 3 mile stretch of divided Freeway last night than ever before.
Too bad we didn’t have a trolly to walk an extra 10 minutes to get to so we could then ride the mass transit to a parking lot so we could get into our cars for the remainder of the trip home.
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The 401k issue arises because they had options and many corporations and non-profits make use of ethical investors or mutual funds. Instead they invested according to profit which is their prerogative. But having done so, they can’t turn around and claim a religious exemption to the contraceptive mandate. The only consistent motive here is profit, not religious freedom.
As I stated before I don’t think the gov’t should decide compensation but I question this particular decision which sets a precedent. And ironically it inserts the gov’t, in the form of the judiciary, into the personal beliefs of individuals. Not only do I think compensation is between employer and employee I also think health care is between patient and doctor with gov’t footing the bill. In this decision, we compounded the original problem of the ACA with even more govt’ intervention. When a activist judiciary asserts the sincerity and substantial nature of belief there will be long term problems. Bob mentions this as a problem and this will be a legacy of the this decision.
A better recourse would be through the legislature and a change in the nature of health care payment. That requires patience and effort which seem to be in short supply. In health care, the best way to deliver it to the populace has been repeatedly shown to be some form of gov’t plan. If private means were better, the American system would deliver far better results and efficiencies than it does. Just like gov’t can deliver mass transit they can deliver mass health care.
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hwesseli: They “invested according to profit”? What do you mean by that? How did Hobby Lobby profit? Come on. Explain the nefarious motive. And are you aware of numerous other HL practices that do lend credence to their sincerity, or have you intentionally remained ignorant like the scores of HL critics who seem to live for spewing invective at anyone claiming Christian motives? You think the sincerity test (which shouldn’t even be relevant) all boils down to a small portion of where *employee* 401k funds are allocated?
HL’s bringing this case has nothing to do with whether they or other Christians are trying to intervene in the health care of individuals. I swear folks just can’t give that a rest.
You say the best approach would be more govt. I say that’s garbage. But that’s more of a different topic.
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Here’s a critique of Hobby Lobby that’s so lopsided and blinded by antipathy it’s actually funny. And notice how the popup decries the SCOTUS decision as a ruling “against women.” It would be hilarious if it weren’t tragic.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/02/1259591/–Christian-values-Hobby-Lobby-purchases-its-products-from-1-family-planning-nation-China#
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The best healthcare plans (Singapore, Switzerland, Holland, etc.) are clearly not single payer. The governments in those three countries spend a lower percentage of GDP on healthcare than does the US (as does every other government on the face of the earth.
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The thing that bothers me most about ACA is that no one is being honest. The Democrats are lying as usual. The Republicans and Fox aren’t giving the people the big picture because they don’t think Americans can handle the truth (they probably can’t). Here is part of the big picture:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/unfolding-fiscal-disaster_796086.html
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solar — they invested with the sole objective of making money when ethical alternatives were available. As a business this is a perfectly defensible action however they then can’t say they ethical problems with paying for contraception coverage. They’ve now discovered a non-monetary motive which they previously did not possess. This should at least raise questions. The dailyKos article is a bit hyperbolic but raises the same issue — consistency. It appears HL is only positing Christian values when it saves them money whereas if there’s money to be made, than Christianity takes a back seat.
Ricky — you’re right, the ACA and the earlier version in Romney’s Mass. are both based on the Swiss example which was advocated by the Republican party in the nineties. A publicly run exchange market offering various private insurance plans. I’m quite sure the Dutch have a public option along with private insurance. And given the Swiss made their system run well, the ACA should work if they had more cooperation from both the public and private sectors. My preference for single payer is based on my own experience and for the fact it would be far simpler with less chance of court challenges as it simply pays the bills.
FDR employed executive orders at a rate of at least one a day. And because of his willingness to employ the heavy hand (or in a more positive manner, exercise strong leadership). I wonder if the weekly standard wished Obama to exercise the same forceful approach to presidential power.
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From power line:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/07/thoughts-on-liberty-on-the-fifth-of-july.php
” … What can we make of a United States where a demand for ‘free’ birth control has become a central plank in the platform of a major political party? As John Hawkins wrote (see The Week In Pictures): ‘Hysterically demanding that the government force people to pay for your birth control doesn’t exactly say, ‘strong, independent woman.’
“In the long run, our freedom is most threatened by such cultural decay. But in the meantime, the biggest danger comes from the unelected, unaccountable fourth branch of government. The fourth branch, the permanent bureaucracy, chips away at our freedom on almost a daily basis. Thus, at 4:15 on July 3, the Obama administration released 1,300 pages of new Obamacare regulations. What do they say? No one knows. I mean that literally. … “
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hwesseli: You simply keep insisting something that is not only trivial, but wrong. Hobby Lobby did not make money off of the 401k options they made available to their employees. I think now you’re just trolling. You think closing on Sundays saves HL money? You’re trolling. Or ignorant.
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HRW, Would you really want your only healthcare option to be provided by the same government that administers our Veteran’s healthcare system and conducted the Iraq War and occupation?
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The lesson went well. Lots of discussion. We went over and I had to end the discussion because wives were waiting.
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Chas, is that a men’s only class then?
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It used to be that all the SS classes in SBC churches were segregated. But that ended several decades ago. Ours is all men, but it just happens that way. There is a ladies class and s mixed class in our department. Most classes of young people are mixed now. Though I usually taught men. .
I have taught 1178 SS lessons as of today.
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Wow, that’s a lot of lessons. 🙂
We do a combined adult SS after church, but it’s in a Q&A format so kind of a free for all with the pastor or whoever gave the sermon leading and answering. It’s a sharp group so the questions are good and challenging, often times taking us in unexpected directions.
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sounds interesting, Donna. I would enjoy a class like that with some content and a good facilitator.
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And we have both. Some very interesting discussions.
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Solar — if they made or lost no money, then its okay to offer their employees a 401K which allows the employees to profit from birth control they consider to be an abortifact?? But HL considers it against their religion to pay for the same contraception. So paying for an abortifact is against their religion but offering their employees the opportunity to profit from this contraception is okay?? I’ve been posting here too long to be considered trolling I’m genuinely confused how one can accept this as consistent behavior. Personally, I think they should campaign for legislative change not an activist judiciary. As it now stands, this ruling will allow religious exemptions for almost anything and thus I wait for a line of Rastafarians, Mennonites, Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims to form outside the court. And given their previous decision on sidewalk restrictions, the barrier outside the court house might have to come down and allow the line up to start a little closer to the Court than they might like.
Ricky — It appears you admit the Swiss et al are able to establish a perfectly fine health care system but the US gov’t is incapable of copying it. Does this mean you think other countries are in fact better than the US (Personally I have no doubt whatever the Swiss can do the Americans can do too). If you have such little faith in the US gov’t do you trust them with the largest military ever assembled. Perhaps given your little faith in the US gov’t you should be advocating for disarmament.
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1. First, the Swiss do not have a single payer system. It is largely a private insurance system.
2. Yes, I do think the Swiss are able to do many things that the US is now incapable of doing. These would include creating and maintaining: a. An affordable military.
b. A decent public education system.
c. A rational foreign policy.
d. An intelligent immigration policy.
3. The US government can no longer perform most of the basic functions of government. It is an ineptocracy:
http://www.betterthanpants.com/ineptocracy-definition-political-t-shirt.html
4. Since I favor Texas Independence and Southern Secession, I am certainly not opposed to Yankee disarmament. However, the feminist, homosexual US military of the future will be more comical than threatening.
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hwesseli: Pick a claim and stick to it. You’ve been making posts that HL has profited from the company’s 401k contributions. That’s false, although I’m sure you won’t be retracting. Now you’ve done better by pointing out the inconsistency in objecting in one instance (ACA) but not another. But you still fail to acknowledge the considerable difference *in essence* between the two. With ACA, HL *would be* paying for abortions (according to their beliefs). Not so with the 401ks. You strain a gnat to point to a very small consideration regarding HL’s sincerity–as if it could be solely determined by this single 401k item–but fail to demonstrate knowing anything about HL *beyond* this item. It’s as if no matter what other practices they’ve engaged in, they’re all defeated by a small percentage of a few funds available in their 401k program. That’s nothing short of tunnel vision.
It may be that this ruling invites various headaches. That’s not HL’s fault. They operate with the means they’re given. Blame govt overreach and overlegislating. That’s what causes headaches like this. It always does.
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ricky — I know its a private insurance scheme monitored and promoted by gov’t exchanges. The ACA is based on the Mass model which is based on right wing proposals from the 90s which in turn is based on the Swiss model ( and as we move from one model to an other changes were made). Because of this, the ACA could be successful if there was more cooperation in government, insurers and corporations.
I’m not surprised you have so little faith in gov’ and the US gov’t in particular — the US military does need to slim down and become more focused. Right now its mass nature makes it a giant bureaucracy and yes social experiment but not the way you think. Its become the catch all for the undereducated, the poor, disenfranchised, marginalized, etc. However, the US military in certain branches is on the cutting edge of technology and strategy and therein lies its strength. The US military probably wouldn’t suffer additional threats to its security if it slimmed down and reduced its social welfare function but then the US gov’t would have to do something its ideological incapable of doing — establish a social welfare state to replace the army – and without it there would be some internal problems.
solar — we’ve done so give and take here. I’ve modified my claims based on your clarifications and we’ve become focused on one particular aspect more than necessary but I think we both can see the inconsistencies of HL’s position and we can see the headaches coming. I don’t blame HL but I do think they are inconsistent and may even be cynical in their use of religion in this particular case. And I do think this is a pyrrhic victory which invites even more gov’t overreach — in this particular case the judiciary branch.
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If you doubt HL’s sincerity, hwesseli, I simply have to think you don’t know anything about the company and haven’t bothered to look.
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And “inconsistencies” is overstating it. This is *one* allegation, and you ignore all counterevidence in order to ascribe sinister motive. Why? The 401k thing is relatively trivial–it’s a very small–tiny, really–portion of HL’s position and their business practices. Criticism to the degree most (you?) have made of HL on its basis is *way* overblown.
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hwesseli,
The US Army, under the draft, was indeed“Its become the catch all for the undereducated, the poor, disenfranchised, marginalized, etc.” in that you had to be 18 and pass a physical. That’s when I served. (My father was an elementary school principal, my mother an elementary school teacher. My sister got the first Ph.D in computer gaming.)
I know a 10 year active duty and 10 year Army reservist who got called back to serve in Iraq. He was in military intelligence. He was on a 10,000 ft. mountain top listening to the 2 sides in Kosovo who were fighting. I don’t know what he did in Iraq, but I am sure he saw real action there.
Today he is the head repair man at Epson printers. Last time I talked with him he was also the one from the Head Office here in the USA who went to their Call Center in the Philipines to check on it. I think he is the one who writes the English repair manuals for Epson printers here in the USA.
“…the undereducated, the poor, disenfranchised, marginalized, etc.”, I think not.
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