68 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 1-14-13”

  1. As I said yesterday. First sermon I’ve ever had on Enoch.
    Dr. Pack is starting a sermon on The Walk, and the title yesterday was “Walk Strong in a World Gone Wrong”. That’s what Enoch did. He walked with God.

    It often means walking contrary to the world.

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  5. Happy Anniversary DrivesGuy, doing anything special?

    QoD: Genesis 2. Very excellent. Mark thinks through things well. He is not afraid to face difficult things head-on. And he unpacked “helpmate” intentionally deconstructing the western pop-Christian, mysogynistic take on that section.

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  8. Congratulations, Joe B and Mrs. Joe B! 1979 was good so I imagine 1978 would have been as well. Of course, I did not know my husband to be in 1978 so I prefer to have waited.

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  10. I’m curious too, Adios. I know there are a lot of views out there, but I haven’t heard the misogynist one. If there’s a “pop-Christian” one, it would probably be the new, feminist one that both are each other’s helpers and thus interchangeable, neither one really “head” of the home in any leadership meaning of the word. That seems to be the view that is making headway today, unfortunately for the strength of the family.

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  12. We’re making our way through Romans. Yesterday it was Rom. 3:9-20; sermon title “Total Depravity (Part 3).”

    Paul, of course, is laying out the bad news before he gets to the extraordinary Good News for man. From our notes:

    “Paul appears here to be proclaiming the badness of the bad news in order that we might more fully comprehend and appreciate the goodness of the Good News.

    “We must know from what we have been rescued — the devil, the world and our own flesh … ”

    “…. What is to be expected from the natural man is not merely silent rebellion. As men live out their depraved state, they will seek to justify their thoughts through the means of deceit. They will also viciously castigate the things of God and those who believe in those things; a practice, sadly, observed with great regularity in the apostate culture in which we live.

    “Christians should not be discouraged when they find themselves surrounded by this behavior. Also, and perhaps more importantly, we should not allow ourselves to be persuaded by the deceit but rather ‘Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful’ (Hebrews 10:23).”

    Throughout Scripture, the theme is repeated — man’s sinfulness accompanied by God’s faithfulness, justice and mercy.

    “The only ones who will stand in judgment are the ones who, by faith, find themselves united to and hidden in the judge himself.”

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  15. Good Morning, Y’all!

    Yesterday’s sermon was on the unlikely people in the geneaology at the beginning of Matthew and was titled “The twisted family tree”. Very good sermon!

    Happy Anniversary drives…we are coming up on 25…

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  16. Happy 35th Anniversary to Joe & His Beloved Lady Marine!

    Looking forward to hearing that you two are living together once again. I hope that will be soon.

    Today is Pauline’s birthday.

    Happy Birthday, Pauline!

    Adios – I’m wondering, too, about what you meant. 🙂

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  17. Yesterday’s sermon was on the things that dampen our passion for God, such as busyness, feelings of inadequacy, discouragement, etc., & the encouragement to not let them dampen that passion.

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  28. Question: What is the final outcome intended to be of Matthew 18? In other words, is the final outcome intended to be reconciliation? restoration? But, what if the person you’re dealing with is an abusive personality, and you no longer desire to be restored to relationship with them?

    In other words, what if I’m willing to forgive and move on and treat them politely, but I do not trust them enough to be reconciled and, worse, restored in relationship?

    I have a “friend” who grew up in a terrible situation. But, she has internalized all of that and she regularly, and in an ongoing way, relates to me and those around me in an abusive way. She is aggressive. You have to walk on eggshells around her. She is jealous and covetous, and feels that she and her daughter are always being treated unfairly. She pushes for (and often gets, because people are afraid of setting her off) concessions for herself and for her daughter under the guise of “being fair.”

    She resents others who have more or get to do more.

    She just quit a program I run because her daughter didn’t get the position she was trying for. And, the fact that I’m angry that she left the team and the program in the lurch (taking someone else’s spot that cannot now be filled), makes ME the bad guy. 😦

    I’m really done. I’m tired of walking on eggshells, being browbeaten into giving her whatever she wants, and living in fear of “what now?” every time the phone rings or I get an email from her.

    I understand why she is an angry, bitter, self-centered person. I really do forgive her for it. But, do I *have* to work toward restoration?

    In other words, I mentioned Matthew 18 to her (she hadn’t been following it in her most recent interactions), and now she wants to go to a pastor with me (he would be the witness). But, the reality is that she just wants to air all her complaints and get the pastor on “her side.” If we were truly miscommunicating, and I truly desired restoration, I could see putting myself through what will be an incredibly gut-wrenching situation. I’m sure (based on past experience) that every little thing that I’ve ever done, and every imagined slight, will be aired against me, while the issue at hand (I’m angry at her for dropping a commitment because she didn’t get her way) will be ignored.

    And, at this point, while I’m willing to give up my anger (it is already moving into disappointment and sadness), and I’m willing to forgive, I simply can’t take being in this kind of an abusive relationship anymore. I’m tired … of walking on eggshells, of catering to her demands, and of living in fear of the next blow-up.

    I’d really like to avoid meeting with her and with the pastor, because my tummy hurts. I mean it really hurts. And, my head. I’m not sleeping. I’m experiencing other health issues.

    But, I’m the one who just wrote how important Matthew 18 is on my FB wall, so I want to do what is right biblically.

    If I’m willing to forgive and move on and treat her nicely … do I have to work toward a reconciliation and restoration that I do not want? Do I have to submit to having my guts pulled out and stomped on in the presence of a pastor?

    Help me out here, those of you with wisdom. I’m so upset by her behavior that I’m actually, literally sick over it. So, I doubt that I’m thinking straight. 😦

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  29. That’s a bummer of a situation, Tammy, but it does sound like the kind of thing pastors and elders–or other mature Christians you and this other party would trust–are called to address. Do you have reason to think your pastor might not give fair consideration of the things you mention here?

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  30. Tammy,

    As Christians we are required to forgive. Does that always mean restoration or no consequences? Of course not. Two quick examples: One can forgive an adulterous, unrepentant husband; but divorce might still be the only possible option. Or one can forgive the one who has murdered his daughter, but still think the death penalty is a necessary consequence.

    In this case, this woman NEEDS to have people treat her with more respect than she has known so far; she needs to have people treat her like an adult, and expect her to follow through on her word.

    If your pastor is wise, trust him to work it out. If you aren’t sure how much insight he has, it wouldn’t hurt to send him a note alerting him to your concerns and fears, telling him you want to be on good terms with her, but you don’t think she has proven to be responsible enough to work on your team in the near future, and you aren’t open to that at this point.

    My two cents.

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  31. Tammy, you are also called to be a good steward. That includes your time. Forgive. Be a peacemaker so far as you are able. You cannot change another’s heart. Relax, do your task, care for your family in the way you know you are called to do it. There are many people like that, they thrive on controversy. It is not your issue. You will not be held accountable for her actions or words. You will be held accountable for your fretting and the stress that puts on your family. Set it aside.

    We tell our children, if Johnny borrows your bike, leaves it in the driveway and his dad backs over it, you are required to forgive Johnny but not required to loan him another bike.

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  32. No, in fact, I was rather surprised that she wanted to go that route, as it can do little more than make her look bad. 😦

    However, since she will pull out all the stops (I’ve had a meeting like this with her before in another situation), I will be drug through the wringer.

    Last time, I came out all right, although she tried to keep changing the subject in order to lay “charges” at my feet (fortunately, the witness in that case was excellent, and kept steering the conversation right back to the topics at hand).

    But, I’m very emotionally wrung out now, and the thought of being torn to pieces in front of a pastor, even if he ultimately doesn’t believe it and even if he ultimately tells her she was wrong, to be almost more than I can bear.

    My guts are already in a quiver, and they won’t take well to be torn out and stomped on.

    And, deep down, there is always the fear, that somehow they will believe her. I had an uncle who was absolutely nuts (stark raving), but whenever my Aunt would try to tell his doctors and get some help, he would become “Mr. Perfect” and charm them every time.

    I have another friend whose husband was abusive (physically and emotionally), and yet he was an elder at his church, and no one believed anything badly of him.

    So, I know that this woman can be wonderful sometimes. She really can. And, since I haven’t shared our long history with any but a very, very few, the pastor might be bamboozled. (Although, what she did is pretty cut and dried, and I think I have every justification for feeling upset with her for it. She cheated the group out of $200, she made us scramble for a replacement, she insulted the director, she accused the program of a number of things (including being “unfair”), and, ultimately, it really is a case of sour grapes. So, I can’t imagine anyone siding with her … except, as upset as I am, I can. 😦 )

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  34. Tammy, I seriously doubt I have wisdom, but I do have experience dealing with damaged people, many in my own family-of-origin. I don’t know what the biblical answer is, but I will be praying for you. The behaviors you describe make living in relationship with someone almost impossible. I’m sorry you are going through this.

    Happy Anniversary, Drivesguy!

    Happy Birthday, Pauline!

    QoD: I missed yesterday’s sermon as I was home with a severe migraine. That makes two weeks in a row.

    Adios: Please expound on your comment re: helpmate; inquiring minds want to know!!!

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  35. Tammy, it seems you may be sick over the loss of control over the situation since you are the one in charge. You are in a spiritual battle trying to do what seems right according to God’s word and what will seem right in the opinion of God’s representative, the pastor. We may have similar situations in our church since our Pastor’s wife directs an arts/drama group. I have never been involved with it other than being a part of the Living Nativity.

    I guess, if you are going to continue in your leadership role, it might help to consider this as a learning experience to help things not get to this point with someone else in the future. You might want to speak privately with the pastor before having the meeting with the three of you. That way you might get a feeling about the pastor’s feelings in advance of the meeting. The other lady has probably already had her private hearing with the pastor so you have that advantage of getting some possible perspective.

    It is your decision to meet or not to meet, however it seems it would be respectful to at least meet in person or talk over the phone with the pastor about it since he has been brought into the situation. I do know that in our church some people have gotten bent out of shape over the drama auditions. I don’t know any details, only that sometimes it seems there is some drama about drama.

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  36. So far as I know, she has not spoken with the pastor at all. However, I will consider speaking with him. The problem was that I was worried that doing so would look badly too, as if I’m trying to “diss” her ahead of time and sway him to my side. 😦

    I have been running this group (and yes, it is a drama group) for 9 years. I am actually, surprisingly, very good with diplomacy. I’ve had to be (I run another scouting group too. Believe me … being in charge of anything makes you get very good with diplomacy or run screaming off a bridge if you don’t!)

    The problem was that she never came to us to even let us know she had a problem. She just called up the director and leveled a bunch of nasty charges against him and the program (e.g. Shakespeare isn’t Christian, the part her daughter got was that of a tramp (not true, btw, but it was portrayed that way in one production in the city a year or two back, but certainly isn’t in the script that way), that he played “favorites,” that he made her daughter cry once last year when she was overly tired (!! These are TEENS, for heaven’s sake!), and — mostly — that the part she got was not the part she should have gotten), and then she quit. There was no attempt to let me work anything out, or for the director to work anything out.

    Then, I told her how upset I was with her, and that her behavior had been unacceptable. I reminded her that such behavior isn’t done in theater, nor in Christian groups, and that she owed an apology.

    Well, now I’m the bad guy. How dare I call her on her behavior??

    It doesn’t help that MY daughter, btw, got the part her daughter wanted. 😦 (I have NOTHING to do with casting. That’s all on the director. I run everything NOT related to the drama and the staging itself. The girls were very close, and my daughter ultimately got the part, and this girl got another.)

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  37. Our morning service done by our main pastor was on 1 Corinthians 9 concerning the roles of peope and their pastors within the church. We have been going through Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthian church for awhile now except for a detour during the Christmas season. I like the way our pastor does complete books instead of skipping all around. He sticks to the scripture and adds some personal stories some of the time to help show application. He was using the analogy of players and coaches to bring some relevance to the times for those who are into all the big football games going on these days.

    The pastor to the senior adults did the evening program where we were studying in Timothy 2:2. I am looking back over that chapter and find a verse that may relate to Tammy’s situation:
    2 Timothy 2:24-26 “The Lord’s slave must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them [the opponent] repentance to know the truth. Then they may come to their senses and escape the Devil’s trap, having been captured by him to do his will.”

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  38. However, the issue is that she is ALSO in the scouting group with me, and we have had numerous clashes between her and other people. I have spent the last six years “smoothing” over issues between her and the people she’s insulted. 😦

    In fact, the meeting we had before was to address her caustic behavior in the scouting group. She has been trying, to be fair, to be better.

    We have also been friends.

    However, after about the 10th time of trying to pull down the bull dog (she revs from 0 to 60 mph in about 5 seconds when it comes to anger), and years trying to smooth her hurt feelings over “fairness” of all sorts, and years walking on eggshells. I’m tired.

    How long do I have to consider her a friend and keep buckling under in order to keep her mollified?

    And, again, I know that I will probably have to do it, but — if I go to a meeting — regardless of the outcome, I will come out of it very, very bruised. And, I’m just so tired.

    I know. You all don’t really know me. And, I realize that complaining like this only makes me look as if I have issues. 😦

    All I can say is that this is the last straw on an entire stack. This has been years of submitting, smoothing, putting out fires, squelching poison, redirecting, protecting, suggesting, and compromising. Some people are very, very damaged, and it is difficult to put up with years of the resultant damage. (Mumsee nods her head knowingly.)

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  39. BTW, this drama group does NOT take place in our church. It is a Christian group, and it meets in a church, but is not under the authority of that church. We are an independent, homeschool group.

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  40. Tammy, forgive her, stop rehashing it in your mind and on the computer, let it go. Neither of you have sinned in the way that involves going before the church. If the pastor calls you and wants to set it up, fine, if not, let it go. Don’t try to defend yourself, just explain the situation briefly. Do not bring up other situations. This can quickly become a series of offenses real and perceived, as you mentioned. You said she has a history of it. Let it go, let God do the reconciliation in His time. You be a peacemaker. Be reconciled to one another means you are both forgiven, you can only do your side. Stop it here and don’t give another opportunity for more.

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  41. Tammy, I don’t understand your post. You’re telling us that you are in a toxic relationship with someone with whom you have no blood ties, or any reason for continuing that relationship. I have never maintained a relationship with anyone who abused me. You have not explained a reason for doing so.
    If it were me, I would drop this person.
    Pastoral counselling is for people who need to reconcile.
    She has an emotional problem, as you describe it.
    And you are no psychitrist. You can forgive her, you can pray for her, you can be nice to her. You can help her when you are able.
    You are not obliged to take any abuse from her.
    It will harm your health.
    It will harm your marriage.
    And you will get no benefit from it. Neither will she.
    I don’t see how Matthew 18 applies here.

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  42. Tammy, I wrote the above verse for you before I saw what you wrote. The verse sounds like something to consider given what you wrote in further detail about all that transpired. Your situation is especially prickly because of her daughter not getting what she thought she wanted which your daughter got. There is probably a good reason it happened that way that only God knows for right now. Just feel relieved that God sees the whole situation and you can trust Him to make things right in the long run. It sounds like the other lady has some faulty thinking going on based on circumstances that you had nothing to do with. She does need to “come to their [her] senses and escape the Devil’s trap, having been captured by him to do his will.” Now there is something to feel pity about for her and her daughter’s sake. But even so, the verse instructs that you as the leader are to engage with her in a gentle way so she may have the benefit of your kindness and be persuaded to see the truth. I hope I have not misapplied this scripture to your situation. Perhaps it may be helpful?

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  43. By the way Tammy, I speak from experience, you are describing my daughter in law. I love her, we have very companionable time together when she comes to visit about once a year, but we are not where we can trust each other.

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  44. Janice’s verse is coming to fruition in our lives as daughter more and more sees that our family is not the evil thing she was told by her mother. She sees that my son loves her and stands strong for her and we do not meddle in their lives. She is beginning to see that we are actually quite a stable resource for her. But it has been many years of just letting God work. We try to respond to her in very brief but loving terms. She is quite damaged and is growing by leaps and bounds. And I have learned to let go of the hurt and anger before it grows to bitterness. Usually. But always before too long. Talking it over and over and over with her does not help. She has had to see by example.

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  45. Happy Celebrations, Mr and Mrs Drivesguy & Pauline.

    Yesterday was a short sermon on part of the Sermon on the Mount. The focus was that Jesus fulfilled the Law. We have one law now, the Law of Christ, which is Love: love God and love your neighbor.

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  47. Happy Anniversary, Joe! Wish you could be with your Mrs., and hope you can be soon.

    A good day here. My hubby had a good long conversation with my brother-in-law, their first since our wedding. They’re working on similar research and wanted to compare notes. Then my husband took me out to lunch with some gift cards we got for Christmas. While we were at lunch, my best friend from Nashville called. I hadn’t talked with her since well before Christmas, far too long. I called her back when we got home, and we talked for more than an hour, a very good conversation (and very needed).

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  48. Our sermon was on the Baptism of Jesus and that we are all God’ s children and He loves us . He encouraged us to show others God’ s love and to pray with each other . It was a timely message in that Chloe needed to know that G o d and I love her and in that we will start our two weeks of Famly Promise where we will host homeless families for two weeks in our buildings .

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  49. Tammy, You probably know my history with a narcissist who did all sorts of damage to me. I finally realized no contact was the best way to deal with this person. I was Abe to remove the..from my life . You may not be able to do that with this woman . You are to forgive her because it is good for you! and.makes you right with God . You are not called to go back for a second or third serving of HERdistinction . That is HER load and she should be the one to carry it not you. Chances are really good that she has done this this to others and they are also weary of her drama .

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  50. 🙂 H 🙂 A 🙂 P 🙂 P 🙂 Y 🙂 * 🙂 B 🙂 I 🙂 R 🙂 T 🙂 H 🙂 D 🙂 A 🙂 Y 🙂

    ***********************************:-) PAULINE 🙂 ************************************

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  53. Hello all 🙂

    Catching up on the weekend threads: prayers for all the concerns mentioned. And a Hapy Belated Birthday to Karen O!

    Today: Happy Anniversary to Mr. and Mrs. Joe B, and Happy Birthday to Pauline!

    Adios: I’m curious for more details, too, on the helpmeet thing.

    AJ: Your QoD reminded me of the first college course all of us education majors had to take at the public university I attended in the early ’80’s. Our instructor, an affable old gentleman nearing retirement age, would randomly ask a few students every Monday morning whether they went to church yesterday. If anyone answered yes, he would then ask, “What was the sermon about?”. If his question was met with blank stares, or some hemming and hawing and “ah…well…ah” -type responses, he would say, “It was about sin”. 🙂

    How the times they do a-change…I suspect the ACLU would be knocking on the door of any instructor asking questions like that at a public university these days 😦

    And how many churches are there now that don’t preach about sin, or call it what it is? I’ve visited churches where the message (is “sermon” an offensive word?) is all wonderful anecdotes, and God is love, and nothing more. Blech…like gorging on syrupy, sugary fluff all day.

    Yes, you are seeing my radical side come through after my little internet fast 😉

    I love heartwarming anecdotes as much as the next person, and certainly God is love, but there’s a lot more to the story than that. Give me the law, make me cringe a little (or a lot), then show me my Savior. (I’m thankful to be in a church that preaches law and gospel every week.) Don’t let me walk out of church feeling like I don’t need a savior.

    Kim, our sermon yesterday was also on the Baptism of Jesus. Although I’m not Anglican (I think that’s what you said you are?), I’ve noticed other times that you’ve remarked on what your sermon was about, and it was the same as ours. Our churches must be following the same pericope, or similar. What texts did your pastor use yesterday? Our pastor referred to 1 Samuel 16:1-13; Psalm 2:1-2, 4-7; Luke 3:15-17, 21-22; and drew most of his sermon from Titus 3:4-7.

    Tammy: I don’t have a lot of input for you (more questions than answers mainly), but what came to my mind reading your posts was how does your husband think you should proceed? (You don’t have to answer that question for me, BTW; I would just advise you to seek his input on the matter if you have not already.) Is he willing to go with you if the pastor calls a meeting? You’re in a difficult situation, and you need an ally — who better than one’s husband?

    I have a similar situation (though it hasn’t gotten as volatile as what it sounds like yours has) in the extended family, and I refuse to deal with situations that have been problematic in the past with this particular person unless my husband is with me.

    Just my thoughts. 😉

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  54. Oops, I just noticed I misspelled Happy in my greetings to Karen O. And of course it’s in bold print! I proofread before posting, too. Oh well 🙂

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  57. Cheryl, I didn’t even notice the extra p! I misread something else today, too (I thought “Marla” said “Maria”), and my husband told me “You need new glasses”. More proof he’s right 😉

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  58. I’m (pretty much) keeping up with the daily Bible reading — although (confession) I fell back a couple days. BUT, I have since caught up.

    It’s so easy when you lose 1-2-3 days to feel completely defeated and give up.

    But I’m not going to. Not this year. I’m going to keep on keeping on.

    Good day at work, a friend from the dog park (who’s worked as a VP for a couple cable TV stations) told me yesterday to email her if I needed help in contacting Hollywood types for a centerpiece story I’m working on.

    So today when i contacted her, she passed on a cell # for a producer I needed to find and he was as nice as could be (I really expected he’d scream at me, HOW DID YOU GET THIS NUMBER?). He still needs to clear it with the studio, but it sounded like he was very open to a phone interview. Yay.

    I also contacted a former church connection with the subject of the story (zamperini-from-‘unbroken’), hoping to hear back from him tomorrow.

    So it finally it looks like I’m making at least a *little* progress on a story I need to finish by the middle of this week sometime! Yikes. …

    No stress …

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  59. Hi, Donna. Thanks for the nice welcome back 🙂

    About the weekend…ahem, let’s just say I learned some things about myself that I didn’t necessarily want to learn, and would have had a completely wonderful weekend if I hadn’t gotten in the way of that once or twice. All’s well that ends well, though, as they say, and I see I have a patient husband far beyond what I deserve.

    Let’s leave it at that, and remember that all things work out for good to those who love God, who are the called according to His purpose.

    Everything’s good now 🙂

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  61. Nice to have those good days at work, Donna. 🙂

    Bible reading: I just realized I never did Bible reading with the kids today, and they are in bed now, so I have fallen off the wagon, too. We’ll just pick ourselves right up, and get back on, won’t we now? 😉

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  64. Chas,

    To answer your earlier question about why I’ve remained friends (or tried to) with this woman.

    Firstly, our daughters are friends, and I have nothing against the girl. She needs to see normal families (her mother never married her dad, and, moreover, she’s never even met the man or anyone from his side of the family. Her grandparents didn’t even want to see her when she was born.) And, I don’t want my daughter’s relationships to be clouded by mine.

    Secondly, I thought it was the Christ-like thing to do. This woman is desperate for friendship, but she drives away most people who try to befriend her. As I said before, she CAN be really nice, helpful, and friendly.

    But, I’ve taken to calling her Jekyll and Hyde, because she can turn into Hyde on a dime … 30 seconds flat, and then you’re toast. 😦

    So, I’ve made a real effort to try to keep us friendly and to be a friend to her. But, I keep getting bitten. At some point, no matter what your life was like BC (before Christ), shouldn’t the Spirit be working with you to at least make you aware that you have anger and jealousy issues?

    In another ironic turn, the part her daughter would have had is actually LARGER and better than the one my daughter “won.” But, now my daughter was awarded her part too.

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  65. Tammy, you can still befriend her, you just do not need to keep her separate from the goings on in your life. I have several apparently friendless people who depend on me for friendship. I never go to their homes or call them, but they call me and they come to my home regularly. We visit, and I direct the conversation to the things of God whenever possible. But I don’t take anything they say as something to depend on.

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  66. Mumsee,

    I have been her friend for 6 years now. The problem is that I am not able yet (still?) to develop that thick skin Chas talks about.

    So, I have spent many a sleepless night, torn up week, and messed up stomach over the years. Her “drama” becomes mine no matter how hard I try to keep myself from it.

    Part of the reason is that I’ve been in charge of groups where her drama has been damaging to the group. So, it has been my JOB as the leader to approach her and the situation and to “smooth” it. I’ve even been on the other side of mediating a dispute between this woman and others and also of Christian discipline with this woman.

    I know that I *should* be able to handle it. I shouldn’t let her steal my sleep, my peace, my joy, and so on … but she does. That is my sin, I suppose. I can’t just “rest in the Lord” and not worry about her and her drama.

    I even went so far as to start training a replacement for me in leadership (in a girl-group at our church) to get away from the responsibility of “smoothing” over the mess this woman makes in the group. (She is not alone. I have another “friend” who is also very damaged by her history in different ways. I often find myself BETWEEN them … which just feels very much like that proverbial “rock and a hard place.” They both can be wonderful, and they both — due to their damaged pasts — can do some really bad things to each other, to the group, and to me. The first with anger issues and “fairness” concerns, the latter with control issues and her intense negativity.) And, I’m TIRED.

    I think I attract such people, because 1) I really DO see past their “issues” and can see their good points despite their “messiness”, 2) I DO put up with a great deal from them over and over again, and 3) I easily feel guilt. So, I really do try to befriend people and remain their friends, even when I’m treated poorly.

    The problem is that I don’t have a strong support network of healthy friends. I’ve put so much time into my damaged friends (and my leadership commitments), that I haven’t cultivated healthy relationships. And, after so many years, I’m really tired. I truly feel that my health is suffering (I sometimes tell my husband that I’ve borrowed YEARS off the end of my life in order to have the strength to deal with these very strong and difficult personalities, along with all the other issues and work involved in leadership.)

    And, of course, it isn’t just about ME. My daughter is friends with their daughters. My family friends with the second family. And, honestly, the two women are also “friends” (who often really dislike one another) and entangled in many ways. So, there are multiple, entangled relationships involved.

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  67. Tammy, there is no reason you need to be friends with the moms of your daughter’s friends. And it sounds as though she is a very damaged woman and you don’t have the strength to help her (1) without hurting yourself and your family or (maybe) (2) at all.

    In my experience, a person who is this toxic will only change (if at all) by repentance, not by developing better habits or having people be patient with them.

    If your pastor is wise and this woman is open to God, the conversation may be life-changing for this woman. If you didn’t have this conversation set up, I’d be recommending you have one focused conversation with her, telling her how hard it is for people to be her friend, and making some suggestions to her as to how she could start making friendship mutually beneficial. But unless she is actually open to change, no such thing will help.

    When I was in my twenties, I had no ability to be a friend. I was never rude to people, certainly never toxic in this way, but people were uncomfortable around me, I was desperately lonely, and I just didn’t know how to get past that. (Examples: my church sent a bus to my college to pick up any students who wanted to go. It seated 70. If we were full, I usually had a seat to myself unless one particular girl sat with me. She didn’t act like she was sitting with me out of pity, but the fact that she was the only one who would willingly do so suggested there was some sort of “keep away” sign around me. Multiple times I was the only person on the entire bus sitting with only one person on my seat!)

    For me, it took several things to get me to the point of being able to make friends: first was a mentor, an older woman who took me under her wing and made suggestions to me (such as telling me that being holier than thou about blue jeans and makeup wasn’t helping me; I was sticking out as “other”); second was becoming part of a group or two where I had my own niche, was accepted for who I was, and learned to excel and to fit into that group (in my case that was yearbook staff); third was accepting that everyone is a little quirky, and coming to terms with my own quirkiness and accepting that I’d fit in some places and not others (now I don’t wear blue jeans, they never did become something I liked; I don’t try to be the life of the party, but talk to one or two people; and I accept that at some social gatherings I will end up “outside” with no one to talk with for a few minutes until couplings reconfigure).

    But in order for me to learn how to make friends, I had to come to terms with several things: (1) I am the problem. Somehow I’m sending out “vibes” I don’t mean to, and I need to work to reset them as best I can. (2) I have to come to terms with where I am socially, and be comfortable knowing I’ll never be “popular,” nor do I want to be. (3) I have to focus more on loving others than having others love me. (4) I had to come to recognize that I enjoy being the “observer,” not the center of attention, and focus on that position and relax into it if at the moment I don’t have anyone to talk with. Otherwise it can lead to panic, and social panic doesn’t draw people. (5) I had to learn to be happy with friendships that “happen” and look for healthy friendships with healthy people. I can’t “force” friendships that I want, and yet today I have close friendships with people I’ve known more than twenty years. Over time I’ve “collected” friends, and some last for a season and some for decades. Right now I’m in a season of having local “acquaintances” but not friendships (yet), so the friends I’ve collected in the past are valuable.

    The irony? That older woman who helped so much in my learning to make friends became a toxic person in my life. She was happy while I was “underneath” her and needed her; once I moved past that, she tried to push me back down. (She strongly recommended that instead of leaving Chicago, I stay and get counseling to figure out why I was so broken, and told me if I disregarded her advice and moved, I’d end up an utter failure in life. Instead I’ve had success in freelance and ended up in a happy marriage, but she and I parted ways. She could handle my success to a point, but her own brokenness insisted on a certain level of brokenness from me.)

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  68. Tammy, it is possible to restrict the woman’s access to the organizations. Some suggestions: do not give her any position of authority, even if it is the clean up person. Do not give her the opportunity to engage you in discussions about the organization, send her to your second. There must be somebody helping you. She can talk as bad as she wants against you to the second. Explain to her one time that this is the way it is.

    A lot of people like that will use those who show concern. It is good to have concern. Jesus had compassion for people. But He did not let them destroy Him until it was time. I am positive He was visited by some caustic folk but there is no real record of that other than Him giving them the straight scoop and them choosing to stay or leave.

    It is hard, very hard. We make it sound easy but it is not. We are fragile people and we get hurt and we carry others stuff. But we are not called to that. We do help each other but we are not made to be a dumping ground. If you saw this happening to another woman and it was a guy doing it, you would be the first to tell her to get out.

    Sometimes we put our nose where God does not want it. I don’t know if that is where you are or not. If He wants you involved, He wants you involved while getting your strength from Him. This woman is tearing you up and away from that. Nice is good, too nice is enabling.

    I am not trying to bash you, I am trying to talk with you as you asked. I am not you and am not where you are so don’t know all the angles but it sounds like a fairly normal abnormal person. Using others because she has nothing in herself. Either help her (not by giving in to her stuff but by setting fences for her to help her get confidence) or step out of her picture and let some other soldier step up. I may well be completely wrong, but there may be something of use.

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