60 thoughts on “News/Politics 12-4-12”

  1. Thanks for moving things around, AJ.

    I spend a lot of time at various other sites, where the purpose is to discuss [and argue about] news and/or politics, but I like to think of this one as a pleasant place to share personal thoughts and prayers with fellow believers. I think all of us here care about the world God gave us, and how much harm man is doing to it, but I don’t believe matters of this world should come before matters of God’s Kingdom [even in placement on a web site], including fellowship.

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  7. Phil Driscol wanted Congress to put aside their agenda’s and work to solve the country’s problem. I personally do not like the agenda set forth by Mr. Obama, but whether I like it or not, he has the power to sign legislation into law or veto that legislation.

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  8. Relevant comment by Wes Prudenm re the Middle East:

    The Palestinians won’t settle for anything less than all Israelis dead, or shipped off to somewhere far away. The Israelis, unreasonable as they may seem in the salons of the West, are determined not to settle for anything less than survival.

    Translation: There is no solution.

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  9. Sails, Some Texans come at this from a different perspective than you. My last nine ancestors that fought in a war all fought against the United States (as led by Lincoln).

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  11. Well Said Ricky. Both my great great grandfathers fount in the War between the States on the side of the Confederacy. Neither one of them were slave owners, but they firmly believed that Lincoln was violating the constitution by instituting an undeclared war against the South.

    It is sad though that the US did not have a William Wilberforce as did England. The war between the States could have been avoided had God in his wisdom ordained such a leader to the United States as he did England.

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  13. Ricky, most sensible and thoughtful Texans, as well as southerners, understand that Lincoln had a constitutional duty to preserve the Union and are glad that it was preserved. As far as I can tell, this present rump secessionist movement has little support from knowledgeable and cosmopolitan southern leaders.

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  15. It is my opinion that the Republic is lost forever. America is lost forever. She has spit in the eye of God by sacrificing their children through systematic slaughter of babies while in the womb. God causes the rise and fall of Nations. He is sovereign and does not change. God sent both Judah and Israel into captivity for sacrificing their children on the altar of Baal. America does it on the altar of self. Paul clearly warns us in the book of Galatians that God is not mocked. What every a man sows, that shall he reap. America has sown the seeds of its own demise. Sails, you are free to disagree with Ricky and I, but Ricky and I see God’s judgement upon the Republic. America is soon to go the way of nations that rejected God and his righteousness in the past. One need only look at England and see how far she has sunk. What you see happening in Europe will soon reach these shores. I am not writing this as a prophet of doom, but as one who sees how God is dealing with the sins of the nations. If God did not spare the other nations, he will not spare ours.

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  16. Matt 24 :3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

    4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

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  18. Most erudite scholars, the ones with real gravitas, with real smartality, recognize the sacrifice of States Rights brought about by Lincoln’s insistence on a bloody preservation of the Union, was a bum deal in the long run.

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  19. It is very difficult to be objective about one’s own country. However, I think it is hard for any Christian to disagree with the conclusions which Drivesguy set forth at 10:53.

    As SolarPancake noted, Conservative Southerners cannot help but see the current actions of the federal government as echoes of actions taken by that same government 150 years ago.

    Sails, You might be surprised to discover what Southerners believe. 89% of white Mississippians voted for Romney. 33% of whites in Vermont voted for Romney. Our people hold beliefs that are virtually nonexistent in New England. It should also be noted that Southerners would have much preferred a candidate far to the right of Romney.

    I take no joy in the collapse of the US. It is a serious threat and inconvenience to my descendants. However, Christians in the US need to have their eyes wide open and act to protect their children.

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  20. Ricky, Edmund Burke, the great conservative British thinker and Christian, spent most of his adult life in the political wilderness. Harvey Mansfield, probably the leading American conservative thinker of our time, at age eighty still teaches at the overwhelmingly liberal Harvard in the leftist state of Massachusetts. Both of these men have been at heart deeply bred patriots of. their country. One doesn’t
    forsake a great nation when the going gets rough.

    Southerners who continue to futilely fight the Civil War and have in effect become dangerous whiners concerning their country need to reflect on their unwise position. Those who combine this with a fanatic, righteous brand of Christianity merely add insult to their faith as well as injury to their nation.

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  22. I’m not ready to give up on this country just yet. Among God’s promises is this:

    ” If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 NKJV

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  24. Donna, I heard O’Reilly on that subject. I believe what he was trying to say, and what the article’s author didn’t seem to see, was the same thing that many Evangelical Christians say, that “religion” refers to the man-made organization that many people of all faiths practice, while “Christianity” refers to a relationship with Jesus Christ, apart from whatever denominational or non-denominational church in which you worship. His use of the word “philosophy,” probably wasn’t the best choice, although any belief system could reasonably be called a philosophy.

    O’Reilly frequently has this discussion with an atheist that is trying to stop any and all public expression of faith, so he also always makes the point that Christmas is a Federal Holiday.

    The fact that the author begins his column with a slam on O’Reilly because he believes there is a concerted effort in this country to push Christianity out of sight and away from consequence. He’s far from alone in that belief.

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  25. 1 Peter 4:17

    For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

    Galatians 6:7-8

    Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

    Isaiah 5:20

    Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    Deuteronomy 18:10

    There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer

    2 Kings 17:17

    Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him.

    I rest my case. America is destined to drink the full cup of God’s Wrath. We are seeing the beginnings of this now. Is it any wonder why there is such a movement to expunge Christianity from the American way of life. Judgement is beginning. God will begin with his elect. He will begin to separate those that bear fruit and those that do not.

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  27. Balance, Solar Pancake. Every great nation known to man has had serious evils as well as strengths. Just now America has a formidable Pro-Life movement that is working to change matters on this issue. Most of these people have not lost basic confidence and respect for America.

    Christians are in a fateful struggle with hard-edged secularist ideologues; the best of them don’t get discouraged, though the cultural heights are dominated by their opponents. All nations are inhabited by fallen men and women Your vaunted Southland was once dominated by determined men who made slaves of human beings.

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  28. Sails, nobody (at least not me, nor do I suspect rickyweaver or drivesguy or many other like-minded folks) are “discouraged,” etc. That attribution–along with other careless language peppered throughout–is yours. 50,000,000. I’m trying to figure out how to “balance” that.

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  30. Solar Pancake, don’t kid yourself. You are discouraged enough about America to agree with Ricky and Drives Guy to advocate a secession movement. Most Pro-Life and Christian folk have not list basic confidence in and respect for our great but flawed nation.

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  31. Sails: Not kidding myself. I don’t think drivesguy or rickyweaver has kidded themselves into thinking there’s some way to, uh, what was that word you used?–“balance”?–50,000,000 dead babies. Their hope is not in a “flawed” nation, and they aren’t discouraged. They merely know how to call evil, evil. Your threshold is just different. No prob.

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  32. I am not discouraged Sails. Rather I am a pragmatist and a student of the word. I once studied to be a pastor. In fact, I am rather encouraged. Here is why. Because I see America falling into God’s Judgement, I see the day of Christ’s second advent coming soon. Maybe not in my lifetime, but soon, very soon.

    God does not need to bless America, rather if America wishes to survive, America needs to bless God. As Kay cited 2 Chronicles 7:14. The hope for America will never come from Washington. It must come from true believers in America recognizing that we are part of the problem.

    The prophet Daniel was carried away into captivity in Babylon, yet when he received the revelation about Israel’s return, he did so when he was confessing that he was part of the problem with the nation’s sin. Compromising your faith for political expediency is not only foolhardy, it is sin and thereby committing cosmic treason against the King of the Universe.

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  33. Solar Pancake, one may regard abortion as evil and on balance still have respect for America.

    Do you consider slavery in the South to have been a good?

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  35. Drives Guy, all nations and people fall unde God’s judgment. Your speculative view that God has definitely turned against America is rather dubious. Religious fanatics have been averring this since the Colonial period.

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  36. Sails, no, I don’t consider slavery in the South, nor in the North, to have been good. I’m not troubled by the notion that God may have been judging the South for continuing the practice of chattel slavery. How about you?

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  37. To second SolarP’s point: Does a “great nation”: a. promote perversion throughout the world; b. promote abortion throughout the world; c. distribute the most profane music, art, literature and movies throughout the world; d. conduct its economic affairs in such a reckless and irresponsible manner so as to endanger the economy of all other nations?

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  39. I see by your answer Sails that you do not hold the Word of the Living God as your final Authority. I will give you my answer with Scripture to validate my assertion that Christians here in America are indeed part of the problem with this nation:

    Daniel 9: 1-19

    In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed and said, “Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments, we have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly and rebelled, even turning aside from Your commandments and ordinances. Moreover, we have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our princes, our fathers and all the people of the land.

    Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those who are nearby and those who are far away in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of their unfaithful deeds which they have committed against You. Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him; 10 nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets. Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him. Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem. As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth. Therefore the Lord has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the Lord our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.

    “And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and have made a name for Yourself, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have been wicked. O Lord, in accordance with all Your righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach to all those around us. So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary. O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion. O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

    I would like for you to read this and mark how many times, Daniel, who was a righteous man of God considered himself part of the problem when he uses the pronoun “we”

    I consider myself part of the problem which is what is wrong with America. For too long, I thought that the solution to America’s sin of murdering children would come through politics. I was wrong. It comes from preaching against sin and God’s wrath against it. It comes from ministering to the woman caught in sin who wants to abort her baby.

    So I will ask you one more time. Do you consider yourself part of the problem?

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  40. Solar Pancake, not being a prophet, I don’t speculate regarding God’s judgment upon nations or individuals, though I agree with Lincoln’s judgment that the blood shed in the Civil War was likely providential. Lincon, by the way, a great enough man to venture prophecy, settled the question of secession, so that this present paltry movement for secession is as a practical matter is rather ludicrous.

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  41. Drives Guy, I certainly accept that the Word of God as the highest authority, though on matters of state I hardly pretend to know his particular views; further, I regard those who pretend to know His judgment on state matters to be rather righteously pretentious.

    What’s needed in our nation is a civil discussion of state matters between both the hard religious right and the hard secular left as opposed to the present rather fevered and fruitless conversation by fanatics on both sides.

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  42. I know you’re certainly no prophet, Sails, but that isn’t what I asked, is it? You should have recognized I didn’t think that about myself, as I only said that just the “notion” that God “may” have been judging the South was not bothersome to me.

    The fact you consider Lincoln, or any man in this age, “great enough” to be a prophet sheds light on your naivete, and helps me understand why your assessment of our nation–past and present–is so dubious.

    But since you apparently didn’t get my point earlier, let me plumb a little deeper: Slavery=bad, right? I don’t categorize any nation that practices it as “great.” Do you? As you give America a pass, on balance, regarding abortion, I’ll assume you’d say “yes.” So that’s where we differ, and it doesn’t seem like there’s much more to be exposed in your viewpoint beyond that.

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  45. My original point this morning was that the US had a good run. For about a century the US was a God-fearing nation, was blessed by God, and was used by Him to do great good throughout the world. Great Britain preceded the US in that role. It now appears that the US has turned from God and is no longer being blessed by Him. He will no doubt select another nation or nations to be his agent.

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  47. Solar Pancake. I would say that your characterization of Sails is uncalled for. I forgive Sails for her calling me a fanatic. Please do not stoop to that level. It is unbecoming of a believer in the Lord to use such terms.

    I will freely admit that I am zealous for the word and my world view is shaped by the word. What bothers me is that many people attending churches in this country, some even reformed voted for the current administration largely due to cultural or socioeconomic reasons rather than truly doing a self-examination. While some may have voted to keep their government positions and those same people voted for Mr. Obama may be attendees of Bible believing fellowships. The fact that they would trust the government rather than their heavenly Father shows exactly my point in quoting Daniel Chapter 9.

    What is needed in America is for Christians to fervently do a heartfelt search and examine themselves to see if they are truly in the faith. (2 Corinthians 13:5). If so, then they should further examine themselves to see if they are trusting God or the government.

    If we resort to the same level of name calling or derogatory comments as those on the side of the enemy, we do our Lord a great injustice and hurt the cause of Christ.

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  48. Drives, Rick,

    In order for Daniel to apply one has to begin with the belief that the US is a christian nation chosen by God. Proof for the former is tennous and proof for the latter is non-existent.

    Sails made an observation regards a christian nation and slavery. One could add genocide during the dispossessing of the land from its inhabitants. One could add the unwillingness of the nation to feed and clothe its own. One could add imposition of our will for economic gain and many a progressive would add these to the list.

    What do you all perceive as the hallmark of a Godly nation as it faces externally and what would be the hallmark of internal policies, in your view?

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  49. You know CB, while I respect you as a woman, you and I will never agree on anything. I see God’s dealing with Nations the same be it Israel, who was far from a Godly nation at the time of her captivity, or any other nation. One of the attributes of God is that He is immutable. If you want to understand the attributes of God, I suggest you read AW Pink’s book, the attributes of God.

    Click to access aogo.pdf

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  50. Interesting question, CB.

    Here is a partial list of things that first Great Britain and then the US did during the times that each was blessed by God and dominated the world:
    1. End the slave trade;
    2. End the practice of widow burning in India.
    3. Translate the Bible into scores of languages.
    4. Send missionaries around the world.
    5. Build schools, hospitals and churches around the world.
    6. Defeated Hitler.
    7. Defeated communism.
    8. Rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII.

    Internally, I would look for the following in a Godly nation:
    1. Protection of citizens from crime.
    2. No abortion.
    3. No pornography.
    4. No prostitution.
    5. Popular culture that resembles that of the 1950s.
    6. A public education system that is respectful of the faith of students.
    7. A situation where almost all children are raised by their father and their mother who are married to each other.
    8. A government that does not descriminate based on race.
    9. Protection of the poor against fraudulent actions of individuals or businesses.

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  51. Drives Guy: I appreciate the olive branch, and while I will consider your advice, I’m not convinced I’m in the wrong. I *could* be convinced, as I, too, don’t care for gratuitous name-calling, but I’m not sure what I said to Sails was either gratuitous *or* name-calling, nor inordinately derogatory.

    Most–possibly all–of Sails’s comments to me have included calling names (and without apology, even when called on it at various times). Unprovoked. She (I didn’t realize she was a woman–is that so?) has the option of carrying on a civil dialog; she chooses to be snide. I do think there’s a biblical case to be made for “escalation of force” in a discussion. Paul wasn’t *always* docile and irenic in his tone.

    But if you’re saying it would be nice to discuss an issue without hostility, I do agree. I’d like to see if Sails is up for the challenge. So…

    Sails, neither Christ, the prophets, nor the apostles set about to win popularity contests. They were judged as fanatics–we all know this. The fanaticism of the disciples turned the world upside-down. They were considered fools for Christ, exhibiting godly wisdom deemed foolish by the world. Is it your view that there is no valid parallel–even in part–between the “fanatical” views of some here and those of the aforementioned saints? This isn’t to *equate* anyone with those saints, only to make a certain parallel.

    And at the least, the framers contended with England over many issues far less onerous than the ones we face today.

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  52. I believe by far the biggest mistake our governments and our churches made was the toleration of divorce. Most of our current domestic problems can be traced back to the explosion of the divorce rate in the 60s and 70s.

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  53. I would say Ricky that it is much more that just divorce, it is the tolerating of sin in general and the failure of the churches to faithfully obey Mathew 18:15-17.

    If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

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  55. Drives Guy, it’s not just tolerating sin. Mainstream Protestants effectively rejectsthe concept of sin. Richard Niebuhr, the Yale theologian summed this up cogently as follows:

    A God without wrath brought forth a people without sin into a kingdom without judgment ministered to by a Christ without a Cross.

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  56. Sails. this is the exact reason why I see America in decline and unless there is true repentance among the called of God, America will be no more. You could also say that because the pews in America are filled with unregenerated hearts and pulpits are led by lukewarm or unregenerated leaders teaching a watered down gospel where people are not called to repent of their sins but rather taught topic lessons that have little to do with spiritual affections as Edwards once put it. People are playing church and the food they are fed is toxic and not spiritual nourishment. If I go to worship and do not feel convicted of my short comings before the righteous King of the Universe, I will go away malnourished spiritually and unchallenged in the way of Sanctification. The prophet Hosea put is so well. Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

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  57. Great point, Sails. The theology of mainstream Protestants became explicitly unbiblical. Evangelical pastors did not go this far, but failed to hold their congregations to high standards. I believe the decline in morality in books and movies played a role in our moral collapse.

    Drivesguy is right that there was much more involved than just divorce. However, the divorce explosion had an impact on abortion, illegitimacy, child abuse, poverty and other family-related problems. The relative silence of the church on this issue also made it more difficult for the church to address other moral issues.

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  58. Rick

    Thank you — that’s an interesting list gives me a bit to think about. I agree with your observation on the church and divorce. Regards the church I would add the purveyors of the gospel of prosperity and many, if not all, of the TV preachers, including Jerry Falwell.

    Drives

    You might be surprised if we discussed issue by issue that there are places we’d agree.

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  59. Ricky and Drives Guy, I’m glad we’ve found common ground on the matter of unbiblical Christianity. Our difference now has to do mainly with whether America is now beyond redemption. Personally, I love and regard this country for all its faults too much to declare it beyond redemption, though I respect your views otherwise. I’m, also, skeptical as to whether a seceded South is the answer to our problems as a nation.

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  60. CB, I agree with you 100% about the prosperity gospel, and suspect we do agree on many other issues.

    Sails, I respect your optimism. I too have doubts about a New Confederacy. The South is also probably too far gone. Hence, my infatuation with Chile.

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