Good morning.
What’s on your mind today?
Quote of the Day
“The trouble with always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind.”
Gilbert K. Chesterton
Wandering Views
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Wandering Views 
Oh, I’ve never been first before! 🙂
I’m up, because I can’t sleep, so that’s not good. But, I’m first! 🙂
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Technically, I can’t sleep for a number of reasons, but the greatest is that my hips hurt. 😦 I can’t figure this one out. Why do my hips hurt regularly?? Even when I take acetaminophen before bed, it runs out in about 3 hours. So, I have to get back up and take some Ibuprofen.
BTW, reversing the two medicines doesn’t seem to work much better. 😦
My shoulders, and knees often hurt too, but not as much as my hips.
I wonder if Aleve works better to help with something like this? Anyone try it?
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Tammy, you need to see an orthopedist. Sometimes hip, knee, and shoulder joints need surgery. I had two partial knee surgeries, both of which have totally cured the acute pain I used to feel.
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Tammy,
I feel ya sister.
My right knee is twice it’s normal size for the last 2 days, and my right hip is killin’ me. I’ll take Sails advice and call the Ortho Doctor this morning.
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Well it seems to have been a night for no sleep. I didn’t have any aches and pains, just weird dreams that kept me awake.
Yesterday we went uptown for Christmas Open House. All the shops are decorated and have refreshments. Several people asked me who I was with. My response was, “Oh you mean grandpa over there? That’s my husband.”. I told him I am going to get a T-shirt that says, “I’m with Grandpa”. I did find a really cute children’s book entitled, “How to Babysit a Grandpa”. Don’t think I won’t put it in his stocking for Christmas!!!! I love to give appropriate children’s books to adults. Every adult needs a little childishness.
The one thing I am not liking so much about this grandparent gig is that I only bought two things yesterday and they were both for Tiny Baby Boy. (wink, wink).
Today I will be ordering flowers but they won’t be for me.
Even though the Tiny Baby Boy is a thousand miles away you would think Gramps-Sir had done it all himself.
I will put a prayer request over on the prayer thread but the baby is having a little difficulty breathing. He isn’t taking as many breaths per minute as most newborns, so they have had him in the NICU.
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“How to Babysit a Grandpa”, I need to find that books for my brothers. I was watching my big brother with his 18 month old granddaughter yesterday. He does everything she tells him to do.
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KBells, I could have pulled it from Amazon, but I try to keep my local bookseller in business too!
http://www.pageandpalette.com/search/apachesolr_search/how%20to%20babysit%20a%20granpa
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Good morning! I, too, didn’t sleep well last night. I think I’m nervous about going home today. I put a request for prayer on the prayer thread today and would really appreciate any and all prayers made on my behalf.
Tammy: I do think Aleve works better than anything else you can get over the counter for joint pain. It used to be available only by prescription (I know b/c I used to take for cramps as a teenager). The great thing about it is it lasts for 12 hours. The prescription dosage is 600 mg, although the over-the-counter instructions call for only 400. I recommend taking two at the onset of pain, followed by one tablet 12 hours later. I think you are supposed to have no more than three tablets in 24 hours, if I remember correctly. I’m sorry you’re in so much pain. I’ll be praying for some relief.
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Kim, kids don’t need instruction. They are born with an innate knowledge of how to handle grandpa. My only experience may be with granddaughters, grandsons may be different.
They can handle grandmothers too, but not as easily. Grandmothers have rules.
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Tammy, some suggestions: chiropractor, pillow between your knees as you sleep, bioflexlaser.com, longer lasting analgesics (like Aleve), and seeing your doctor.
My dad had hip bursitis making it quite difficult for him to sleep. He had 5 laser treatments of his hip and no longer takes his daily ibuprofen. (He’s 80 and was VERY sceptical, but it was good to see him no longer in pain)
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Chas, how right you are (as usual)!
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Dashing in here while babysitting to ask a quick question…
Has anyone here ever taken St. John’s Wort or SAMe for depression? Ever come off an anti-depressant & found either of those helpful?
I’ll be back later. God bless each one of you today.
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I was reading an article on the Santa Monica nativity display/atheist display, and thinking of the atheists and their condition made me very sad.
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I just finished reading The Enemy at Home by Dinesh D’Souza. I expected it to be a treatise on how Muslims are migrating to the US and infiltrating the structure. Much as discussed in Robert Spencer’s Stealth Jihad. But it turns out that we are the enemy. More specifically, liberal secularism is the enemy. Muslims are enraged by the exporting of moral filth by television, visitors and commercial means; but especially by cultural media. He has a valid point in much of his argument.
The book is a 2007 edition; so much of his discussion of politics is dated. His last chapter is, “Battle Plan for the Right”. He thinks we can work with “traditional Muslims” because we have common goals, returning to the moral standards shared by both religions. He opens a section with: “Let us explore these themes in greater detail. First I want to examine how conservatives can use the culture war to win the war against Islamic radicalism. If the American left is covertly allied with the radical Muslims, the American right should openly ally with the traditional Muslims.”
The problem with that solution is that “traditional Muslims” have no choice or authority. The radical Muslims have the weapons and will (and do) use them on anyone. When the Brotherhood moves into Egypt, the women cover themselves. When the Taliban moves back into Afghanistan, the girls stop going to school. Read in Time to Betray how the culture suddenly changed in Iran when “conservative Islam” moved in. And many Muslims agreed with them.
The problem is intractable. I see no political or peaceful solution. I believe the turmoil will increase until the Lord enters the fray. Not a happy ending. Not for the world.
I am continuing to read The End of America, by John Price. Though I don’t buy into his “Daughter of Babylon” theory, I see a diminishing of American influence in the world, and specifically the Middle East. A lot of people think that is good. I don’t
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Mumsee, I was going to comment on the Santa Monica thing later, in connection to my post above.
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Karen, check your messages, I’m there
Praying for your pain Tammy…Paul is an ultra runner and he takes Aleve liqui-gels….they work for him
Grandkids….they have a way of making us all mushy inside 🙂
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I don’t know why I am anonymous this morning….that was me…Nancy Jill 🙂
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Tammy, how long has the pain been there? You seem a little young for it to be something serious. I’d see it if doesn’t clear up with some of the suggestions here unless the pain is severe enough that it’s clearly something going on.
My first thought also was maybe it’s the mattress. I know mine’s old and probably should be replaced.
I was having some ache-i-ness in one of my knees a few years ago and the doctor took Xrays, nothing showed up. So he just suggested I wear sweats or something really warm to bed. Not sure that made much of a difference at the time, but after a while it just went away on its own. Sometimes I think maybe we tweak these joints without realizing it and then they give us grief for a while.
Could also be arthritis — the physical therapist I saw for my neck a couple years ago said virtually everyone starts getting that after turning 50 or thereabouts. 😦
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You’ve also been busy cleaning out a house, as I recall, so it could just be the extra physical stress and movement your body’s not accustomed to.
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My oven is going out…just in time for Thanksgiving….I am in sticker shock over the prices!! 😦
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Tammy and AJ, any history or possibility of a tick-borne illness? If not treated with antibiotics (or under-treated), the disease can settle into the joints, causing symptoms like swelling, stiffness, pain, etc.
Kim, I hear you about the weird dreams. I’ve been having more unpleasant dreams in the last few months for some reason. Last night I dreamed there was a low-flying plane circling our property, and I was outside with one of my kids, trying to hurry toward the garage, thinking it was a terror attack. Of course, I couldn’t move efficiently to get inside. I hate that. You wake up and it seems so real for a while.
Does anyone know if melatonin supplementation can cause bad dreams? It seems like the more frequent occurrences of nightmares I’ve been having started after I began taking that supplement. And this may be unrelated, but my dentist is trying to figure out why my tooth decay has become so aggressive, and the only lifestyle/dietary change I’ve made in recent months is beginning melatonin supplements.
Maybe I’m putting the blame in the wrong place, but it all makes me wonder.
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6 Arrows,
I already know the cause of mine is from an auto accident. It has gotten progressively worse the last 4 1/2 years. And now arthritis accompanies it as well.
😦
I’ve avoided it because I’ve already had 2 shoulder surgeries and a year of physical therapy on the shoulder as well as both knees. I’ve known for a while now that knee surgery is in my future, but I just don’t want to. I don’t think I can avoid it much longer however. What I find most discouraging is the slowly increasing hip pain. That worries me the most. At 46, I’m too young for that. Or not I guess.
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I’ve always been an active dreamer but mine have been unsettling lately, too (though in large part I blame the issues going on at work right now, but I also sometimes use melatonin). Hmm.
nancyjill, I hear you. I couldn’t believe the prices for appliances when I began shopping for a new refrigerator. Yikes. But I have to say I still LOVE my new fridge. What a time for the oven to go out, though. 😦
Cutest ovens I saw in the store where I bought my refrigerator came in bright primary colors with black as the offset color. They cost a fortune, as I recall. But they were soooo cute.
(A guy friend who cooks a lot bought one used from craigslist — he told me they also had a good reputation because they cooked foods so evenly.)
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Here’s a story on the Nativity scene in Cali..
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-12-22/us/us_california-nativity-atheists_1_atheist-group-nativity-scenes-jameson?_s=PM:US
“The 14 scenes depicting Jesus Christ’s birth have long been a popular attraction among area residents and tourists to the southern California city.
This year, however, atheists have taken over most of the two-block stretch, nearly shutting out and angering a group of churches who contend the atheists have organized against the Christians and gamed a city lottery process allocating the holiday exhibit space.”
“The atheists group won from the city 18 of the 21 exhibit spaces — leaving only two plots to the Christian churches and one to a rabbi erecting a Menorah scene. The venue is Palisades Park, with vistas of the Santa Monica Pier and, in the distance, the coastal mountains of Malibu.
“We don’t object to them being there. We just object to them manipulating the rules, to try to deprive us of our freedom of speech,” Jameson said. “You add everything together, there would be enough room in the two blocks to take care of all the displays. It’s a matter of portioning the space fairly, and we are undertaking a petition drive.””
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WRT my previous post, and Mumsee’s comment. We are losing the culture war. That is a war on Christian/Jewish moral standards. D’Souza says, “….the left’s war is not bearded Muslims who wear long robes and carry rifles; it’s against pudgy white men who wear suits and carry Bibles.” p. 14. Again, “traditional Muslims” say, “The freedom we want is not the freedom to use women as a commodity to gain clients, win deals, or attract tourists; it is not the freedom of AIDS and an industry of obscenities and homosexual marriages……” p. 14. etc.
It’s the same war with small, continuing skirmishes. Mumsee mentioned an article I also saw in today’s Times-News.
“Santa Monica officials snuffed the city’s holiday tradition (of having a life sized Christmas display overlooking the beach-my explanation.) this year rather than referee the religious rumble, prompting the churches that have set up the 14-scene Christian diorama for decades to sue over freedom of speech violations.”
They are relentless. They intend to stamp out any public – and later private – display of Christianity. They have lots of money from somewhere and with one victory, they move on to another. They don’t have much influence in Western NC. We still say “Merry Christmas”. Though some stores will be open Thanksgiving p.m. for early “holiday shopping.” You don’t remember this, but in the front page of the newspapers, there used to be an item, “21 more shopping days ‘till Christmas”.
Along the line of culture war, along side the article on “Christmas in Santa Monica unplugged”, another article says, “Maine views profits from gay marriage”. I haven’t read it.
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Tammy,
I get the hip pain at night thing. I believe it’s osteoarthritis. I haven’t been having much of a problem lately, but it got really bad when I was doing a lot of hiking. There are lots of hilly hiking trails around here, and I go through phases when I hike them a lot.
Someone suggested the pillow between the legs, and lots of people swear by that (although I think that’s more for back pain than hip pain) but for me, that really exacerbates the problem.
Are you, by any chance, more flexible than the average person? I have loose ligaments that make me flexible, but now that I’m older, they cause instability in my joints, and this leads to a lot of my pain and discomfort. I pretty much figured this out for myself, and only then got confirmation from my chiropractor that this is the case. I’ve never found medical professionals in any branch who were actually able to tell me what’s going on with me. I have to either research and figure it out myself or it remains a mystery.
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When I think of the atheists involved, I am not too concerned about the state of our nation. I am concerned with their state as they mock God.
Yes, we are losing the culture war and that is sad. I wish to leave a good country for my children and grands. But, more important, I desire to leave a hunger for the things of God.
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The expression “Voting with your feet” might be interpreted as “Whatever you say, your actions demonstrate what you really believe.”
For example, you may say you believe in life after death, but you try through empirical medicine to stay alive and as healthy as you can. (Lots of examples of aches and pains today, and lots of empirical diagnostic guesses and prescriptive suggestions today.) So even if you criticize empiricism, when it come to this world that we all live in, you vote with feet to demonstrate you believe in empiricism.
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Not wanting to allow homosexuals to marry is not a moral offense in the same sense as murdering or torturing people, keeping slaves because of skin color, or segregating people because of skin color, but it is hardly necessary and simply causes unneeded discomfort and frustration. There is in my opinion, no compelling reason to to oppose it (as our society is gradually but inevitably coming to recognize).
There is very little in the Bible (not the “Word of God” in my opinion) to justify this opposition. It mostly comes from Paul and not Jesus. (Who was not the “Son of God in m.o.). And who appointed Paul as the person who tells us the things that Jesus didn’t get around to saying escapes me.
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I don’t see any reason for believing in life after death. It’s the ultimate sales service/product. No one ever comes back to complain about not receiving the service/product [Heaven] to the Federal Trade Commission Consumer Protection Division (or any other public or private consumer protection organization. For that matter, try suing God in any court. .
It’s not that attractive, either. I don’t want to die. But people (such as Christians) who say Heaven is eternal joy don’t really understand the words “forever” and “eternal.” How many Super Bowls can you win as the starring quarterback until you get weary? How many delicious meals prepared by the finest cooks can you consume until you are sated? How many of the most gorgeous, passionate, and sillful people of the opposite sex can you mate with until you say, “Enough.” Can you conceive of what a million years really is, much less a billion? How many of the most interesting skills and most interesting fields of knowledge can you comprehend until you say, “I am so bored, this is Hell?”
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Ree, or Sails, or whomever: do you really believe in “Hell?” If you do, what does it consist of? Why is it justified? Instead of sending Hitler, or Stalin, or Ted Bundy to Hell, why create them in the first place?
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What Christian claims not to “believe in empiricism”? Christians have great reason to believe in empiricism.
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Ree,
YES! Even when I was very heavy (I’m still heavy, but I’ve lost a lot of weight), I’ve always been *very* flexible. I was proud of it!
So, interesting that it could be contributing to the pain now that I’m 49.
I have a hard time getting my doctor to take me seriously. She will have me move, and I will move so well that she will insist that I couldn’t POSSIBLY have arthritis, or I would be able to move so well.
I have tried to explain that I now move more like a NORMAL person … that, for me, that isn’t nearly as flexible as I used to be. But, she seems bound and determined to see it as impossible for me to be in pain when I’m still so flexible. 😦
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Not wanting to allow homosexuals to marry is not a moral offense in the same sense as murdering or torturing people…
How do you make this assessment, given that you’ve already posited there is no actual moral right or wrong?
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*would NOT be able to move so well. Sigh
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I check into this website like once every 4 days and I swear I’ve seen modestypress’s/Random Name’s questions answered about 87 times before with seemingly no ackowledgement of those answers. What gives?
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All the Christians I know not only believe in empiricism, but we believe that Christianity was one of the main forces that created the concept!
When you believe in a God of order, who created a world that makes sense and can be understood, then you develop Western ideas of science and study. Tons of the early Western scientists were Christians.
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Yes, Solarpancake (who are you … do we know you? Could you introduce yourself?)
That’s my exact problem with Random. He repeats his charges over and over like a broken record, and never really seems to engage with any of the responses much. It’s as if we are more or less ignored. 😦
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Random: It seems you give a lot of weight to hypothetical reasons for believing a thing. Like, we believe in the afterlife as some sort of comfort, or because of being duped by a sales pitch, or whatever. Is it your position that there are some beliefs that are held about which no hypothetical psychological reason can be asserted for holding those beliefs? It just seems like a pretty flimsy reason for dismissing something. I can think of a bunch of hypothetical psychological reasons someone would not want to believe in God, but I don’t consider that any kind of argument against atheism.
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Tammy, believe it or not, I’m Michael Jordon, the famous ex-basketball player.
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SolarPancake,
Have you seen the Michael Jordan commercial where everyone is expecting “THE”
Michael Jordan? Funny stuff.
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Here it is.
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The reason I repeat my questions is because you do not provide sensible answers.
If someone owed me $100 and did not pay, I would ask again for him to pay me. If he then took a plain piece of paper and wrote on it in pencil, $100 and handed it to me, I would say, ‘That is not real money. Please pay me.”
If he then said, “I paid you; why do you keep asking me,” I would keep asking again.
Apparently, “My answer satisfies me; it should satisfy you,” is the best answer you can come up with. Unfortunately, as I have mentioned, we both share the same empirical world and it’s a world where we (all of us) share resources and make decisions. Fortunately (in my opinion) people are turning less and less to imaginary information and beliefs for making decisions. Hence, the very real whining on this web site.
Ultra nationalistic Americans used to say, “Love it, or leave it” to people who disagreed with them. Now, judging by comments posted over the last few weeks, at least a few conservative (maybe quite a few) Christians are saying that to themselves.
But where to? Perhaps the moon? Or, Mars? Be the first Puritan to start a “city on a hill” on Mars! There are no inconvenient aboriginees. You don’t need slaves to grow cotton or rice. Humans have invented robots, androids, and artificial intelligence computers to slave for us. While the machines to the work, humans can sit in their domes on Mars and pray incessantly. Sounds like a trip to me!!
Off to the gym to keep my this world only carcase alive for another day. If there is a Heaven, you can entertain yourself by looking at Stephen and saying, “Oh my, how sad. We warned him and warned him and he would not listen.” That should be enough entertainment to entertain you for at least a 100,000 years of the tedium which is “Heaven.”
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Random, since you don’t believe the Bible is the word of God, and you don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God, then why would you value the words of Jesus over the words of Paul? Orthodox Christians see no difference in the “red-letter” words over the others; they’re all the word of God. And as far as who gave Paul authority, scripture is clear that his authority comes from Christ, given to him with his conversion on the road to Damascus. This isn’t nearly as hard as you make it. 😉
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solarpancake
That is Jordan with an “a” before the “n.”
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Tammy,
Your situation sounds just like mine, and I’m pretty sure the diagnosis is right for both of us. It’s amazing to me that doctors seem so incapable of thinking outside the box. I mean, are you and I the only flexible people around? Probably about 2% of the population or so have loose ligaments.
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Solarpancake: It just seems like a pretty flimsy reason for dismissing something. [Hypothetical reasons . . . etc.]
The main reasons I don’t believe in God are 1) lack of empirical evidence and 2) existence of suffering (which an omniscient and omnipotent being could prevent). The other reasons are interesting and sort of entertaining, but not the “deal breakers.”
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Cameron,
I am imagining you holding a very sharp sword in your hand and splitting hairs with great skill.
If jesus is the Son of God, and he wanted to deliver a message to human beings, the I think he could do so with great clarity and completeness.
If he wasn’t the Son of God, then the Bible is just a book written by various human beings over thousands of years (entire Bible) and a hundred or two years (New Testament). It was written with great talent, imagination, and skill, but when picked apart for thousands of years, inconsistencies and frays in the story become fairly apparent.
I am getting old and joining the “pickers” is kind of fun. It’s very subjective, but I think the benefits of religion are less and less apparent than what they might have been, and it’s time for humans to “grow up,” accept this world is all we will ever have, and make the best of it we can.
OK, really is time to log out and go to the gym and run some errans my wife has assigned to me or I will be out in the pouring rain and seeking shelter in the coop with the hens. They already think my wife and I are ****-poor Gods for letting it rain so much, and they would probably peck me to death. (I don’t know that chickens are up to crucifying bad gods.)
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“The reason I repeat my questions is because you do not provide sensible answers.”
That’s because you define “sensible” in a way that excludes things you can’t explain.
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Well here I am at work, trying to do maintenance stuff while the rest of the crew takes the week off because things have slowed down.
I got a couple of things done, and then disaster struck. I was changing out oil metering ports on our expensive CNC router, and got the first three done, and the fourth one…. well let’s just say that it wouldn’t co-operate and the brass elbow it was mounted in is broken off in a very inaccessible place.
Now I’m trying to get it out so I can put a new one in, but it seems that the EZ-Out is just wedging the remnant in tighter….
If I break an EZ-out off in this thing, I’m really up the creek without the paddle. But if I can’t get the remnant of the brass elbow out, I’m still INOP.
What to do?
Nothing like taking a 10 minute job and making it last forever…. 😦
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Well, Random, not today, but over the next week or two, I think I could start to deal with those two issues. I’ve read enough, and if you’ll allow me source material access, I can start with the empirical evidence, and then, once I’ve presented that, we can go on to some of the discussions on pain and suffering.
Admittedly, for the second topic in particular, we will have to talk philosophically and logically. We can’t have straight empirical evidence on that topic. Although, that shouldn’t be an issue, because pain and suffering are just as much a problem (if not more so) for the atheist.
Even though we’ll have to use more non-empirical arguments for the second topic, it really shouldn’t be an issue, because NO ONE knows the world, or accepts reality ONLY on empiricism. We don’t have empirical evidence for a lot of things that we deal with as fact. Anything in history, for example, is not proved empirically (not origins, nor even evolution, for that matter), but rather is accepted or not on the grounds of competent, credible evidence, and — with human history — preferably with credible contemporary testimony. We have as much evidence (and more) for Jesus as we do for Julius Caesar, for example.
To prove a thing with certainty, you have to show that it follows inexorably from something already known. Only deductive knowledge is certain. In science , we accept for practical purposes, the reliability of the laws it has discovered. But, we have to remember that they are not proved, and only one example to the contrary can bring down an entire scientific theory (and it has!)
Equally, you also cannot prove Christianity, but you can prove it equally as well as you can many scientific laws and, certainly, equally as well as many scientific theories.
At the final analysis, the scientist as well as the Christian have to make that last leap of faith and accept the conclusions to be drawn from the evidence (both empirical as well as competent, credible, testimony) unless and until other evidence comes along.
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“If jesus is the Son of God, and he wanted to deliver a message to human beings, the I think he could do so with great clarity and completeness.
He did. He said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
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Random, a belated welcome back. (I haven’t been on here much the last couple weeks — really busy with other things. ) I hope your trip was enjoyable.
On the last day you posted before you left, you posed a question about what reasons people have for being Christians other than 1) Pascal’s wager and 2) “I win, you lose”. I wrote a fairly lengthy answer at the time, in case you haven’t seen it and would be interested in going back.
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Stephen,
Just a request. I’ve responded to your posts on Daily Threads from 11/16 and 11/17. I’m okay with you not responding to every post, but please acknowledge if you’ve read them, so I can stop checking back. Also, in the future, I’d very much appreciate if you’d do that on previous days’ threads for the same reason. Thanks.
You’re still equivocating between empiricism as an overarching epistemology (which is self-refuting nonsense) and empirical reasoning. Systematic empirical reasoning was developed within, and is justified by, a Christian worldview. (Even Francis Bacon’s thinking was developed within the context of Christian presuppositions about the nature of reality.)
As to your comment about how our attempts to diagnose our ailments, and how our attempts to stay healthy supposedly belie our profession of faith, that’s nonsense. I agree that we “vote with our feet” in the sense that you explained your use of the term, but not that what we do contradicts our beliefs. And the Chesterton “quote of the day” illustrates the difference between the prevailing attitude towards health of the unbeliever vs. the believer in the modern age.
I notice this particularly in the marked difference between the attitude of my unbelieving family members and my own attitude towards our inevitable decline and death. My two most atheistic sisters display what appears to me to be a kind of morbid and desperate attempt to do whatever the medical community tells them will give them the best odds of extending their lives as long as possible. They schedule every recommended screening at the recommended ages and at the recommended intervals. They take statins to try to keep their cholesterol levels as close as possible to the recommended levels in order to help stave off the heart disease to which we’re genetically prone. They routinely have allegedly pre-pre-cancerous moles removed from their bodies by a dermatologist who, as far as I can tell, has developed an extremely lucrative practice out of scaring people into thinking that if he doesn’t shave off or carve out a half dozen discolorations from their skin once or twice a year, that they’re probably bound for an early grave.
In contrast, I and most of the Christians I know, just don’t spend a lot of time and money concerning ourselves with what might happen. We live our lives, take normal precautions and, when we’re suffering pain, we obviously try to do what we can to alleviate it, if possible. And a correct diagnosis can help us to know how best to do that. We recognize that life is a gift, and we desire to graciously accept that gift, and the responsibilities that come with it. So we strive to enjoy God’s gifts in moderation, and we take advantage of the benefits of modern medicine–but without making an idol out of it.
I’ll try to get to the hell question later today, but in the meantime, yes, I do believe in it.
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Tammy, it is just a guess – and a lot of people here have already given good suggestions, but the fact that both your hips hurt (and both knees and shoulders) might indicate rheumatoid arthritis, rather than osteoarthritis. If you have any joint swelling that would be another indication. I don’t know your age, but my mother developed rheumatoid arthritis in her mid-forties. She now controls it with daily doses of a teaspoon of tumeric and ginger, both natural anti-inflammatories. She tried the conventional medications, but the side effects were so severe that she couldn’t take them.
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Karen O at 10:39 am:
I haven’t used St. John’s wort, SAMe, or antidepressants, but a book I own, Prescription for Herbal Healing (2002) by Phyllis A. Balch, CNC, has this to say about St. John’s wort:
“If you are taking antidepressant drugs, whether MAO inhibitors, tricyclic antidepressants, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) such as fluoxetine; or the painkiller tramadol (Ultram); or the migraine medication sumatriptan (Imitrex), you should not take St. John’s wort at the same time. Doing so can cause serotonin syndrome, which can be life-threatening. If you are interested in switching from a prescription drug to St. John’s wort, you need to let the medication flush out of your system for several weeks (depending on the drug) before you start using the herb.”
I see a 2nd Edition of this book came out this year, so it would be good to see if any of the above information changed. I would check with a good healthcare practitioner before implementing any changes.
Blessings on your day, Karen.
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real AJ: That’s hilarious. ESPN kills with their commercials. Love it…
Thanks, bobbuckles. No wonder I’ve had problmes cashing those million dollar checks.
Random: No. You haven’t interacted with answers given to you. And here’s an example of sloppy thinking: You criticize folks here with,
Apparently, “My answer satisfies me; it should satisfy you,” is the best answer you can come up with.
Then type this sentence a couple posts later,
If jesus is the Son of God, and he wanted to deliver a message to human beings, the I think he could do so with great clarity and completeness.
So the definition of “clarity and completeness” is “whatever satisfies Random Name’s standard.”
I see. So your subjectivity trumps the Christian’s. It should raise red flags to anyone putting forth claims of truth when they dismiss others’ truth claims because, after all, it’s all subjective. I would think it tiresome to spout off with such regularity, all the while asserting things about reality that undermine the truth of the very things you’re spouting off about. But to each his own. Sorry to have interrupted the discussion with Ree.
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SolarPancake,
I feel your pain. Do you know how many times I’ve heard “Allen Jackson? Do you sing?”
It was funny the first couple times, but not the 10,ooo or so since then.
😦
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Cameron (@1:58) 🙂 My thought exactly — But He has spoken clearly.
The problem is with our hearing.
Doing some errands this morning and got a text from my poor editor who’d forgotten I was off today (in exchange for having worked Saturday). Where are you?????
Turns out he only has one reporter on regular shift today, a few others have night meetings to cover. He’s a tad frantic for local copy.
You’d think with so few of us left it would be easier to keep up with the schedules, but it’s not. We have late shifts/night shifts/weekend shifts all to keep track of. And just having a couple people out now virtually decimates (what’s left of) the staff. 😦
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I know it’s not Rants & Raves but…
🙂 Just confirmed fir hardwood under our ugly kitchen vinyl! It’s going to take a lot of work to bring them back but even the corner I’ve just scraped looks better than the rest of the floor!
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Kare2012, that’s awesome. 🙂 Congratulations.
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Karen, I have taken St. John’s Wort on a couple of occasions when I was so worked up that I couldn’t sleep. It seems to work, but I couldn’t give a recommendation for long term use – I have read material which indicates that it can create dependency.
I looked up melatonin in my drug manual, and it says that it can produce depression and complex sleep disorders – so it could very well increase the likelihood of nightmares. The one thing people want to be careful of in taking any sort of hormonal medication without a prescription is that your body also produces those hormones. Often, your body will stop producing the hormone, as your hypothalamus detects the hormonal levels from the medication in your bloodstream, decides you have enough of the hormone and tells your glands to stop production. If you go off the medication, you will have severe withdrawal symptoms. With some hormone drugs, sudden withdrawal can cause dangerous illness or even kill.
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Kare, careful about asbestos. It happens under some of that old vinyl.
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Depression, one of the daughters takes evening primrose or valerian very infrequently when she is unable to sleep. It helps when she is beginning to cycle down into depression, to keep her from continuing down. Don’t know how that works with coming off of medication.
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Thanks Mumsee, we are aware. We’ll scrape and not sand until we’re down to the wood.
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Once upon a time there was an often funny British comedy group called “Monty Python.” One of their better skits involved a gentleman seeking an argument. You may find it on YouTube by searching for “ARGUMENT CLINIC.”
Perhaps you will not agree, but I find considerable resemblance to our discussions here.
“We have answered all your questions and objections.”
“No you haven’t.”
“Yes, we have.”
And so on. It’s something to do until we die.
In the meantime, I have done my wife’s errands (with some success) and now I better go to the gym. The rain continues to pour down. If chickens could speak, they would say to us, “You are not real gods.”
We say to them, “We give you clean water every morning, and then you drink dirty water out of pools on the ground. How will not live forever.”
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Mumsee, I am sorry your daughter suffers from depression. If she prays, I am sorry that does not work better for her.
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Random, thank you for your concern. Actually, she is doing much better, thanks to the prayers of many and the intervention of her Creator. He knows her heart best. Anyway, she is doing well as she has learned that not only is she loved enough to die for, but He has a plan for her life. It gives her great hope and comfort to know that what her bio mom went through is not necessarily for her and is definitely not how it should be. It gives her great hope to see that He placed her in a family which values her and is willing to put time and effort into helping her with her education. It gives her great peace that He placed her where she no longer needs to be on a handful of psychotropic meds twice a day. She is learning who she is and learning to value others, knowing that each was created for a purpose. She is thriving. Sometimes she trips up and we notice her spiraling down. It gives her great encouragement to know that she has a friend we can send her to visit who will spend time in the Word of God with her, showing her the lies she has been told and the Truth that is there. It helps her regain her footing and learn to take every thought captive. She used to go into deep depression for extended periods of time, many times in a year. She has not done so more than twice in the past year and a half and both of those were caught early so only lasted less than a week. She is enjoying the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control that come from the Holy Spirit living in her. She is loving that she has an Advocate, bringing her needs before the Father. Thanks again for your concern for her.
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As evidence I read Ree’s last comment:
I notice this particularly in the marked difference between the attitude of my unbelieving family members and my own attitude towards our inevitable decline and death. My two most atheistic sisters display what appears to me to be a kind of morbid and desperate attempt to do whatever the medical community tells them will give them the best odds of extending their lives as long as possible..
1. All human beings (of any belief system) face the dilemma of how long do I want to live, and at what cost? As animals, we all want to live. Price is complicated. There is financial. There is suffering. As medical technology advances, the cost evaluations become more complicated.
2. If a place called Heaven exists, and is quite wonderful, why live, especially in situations involving immense suffering. (There are over 7 billion people in the world, and quite a few of them are suffering immensely.)
3. Christians have a slogan or tag called “Right to Life.” This seems to be applied to abortion and to suicide most often. I presume this slogan applies to counteract the temptation that many humans feel to commit suicide to escape physical and emotional suffering. I am not in favor of abortion, but in the intense hair splitting that goes on in Christian discussion I fail to believe that birth control is murder. In terms of empirical discussions, Ireland (one of the most anti-abortion countries in the world as far as I can tell) is in a major uproar about a woman who recently died after she was refused an abortion (even though there were serious medical problems). It’s a rare situation (as people have told me), but it does seem to happen. You can tell me the woman and husband imagined the problem, or that it’s just the breaks, or perhaps she didn’t have enough faith (after all, she was East Indian), but after all is said and done, I have trouble reconciling this to “Right to Life.”
4. Ree calls her sisters’ attempt to stay alive as “morbid and desperate.” I am not sure what words to use to describe the Irish hospital’s refusal to grant a very ill and suffering woman’s request for an abortion, but they certainly would not be any more positive than “morbid and desperate.” Or at least the widespread silence so far on this web site (I mentioned the story several days ago) might be so described.
5. When I was younger, I thought that my father’s death at 43 indicated that I would die at a young age. Now that I am 68 (and relatively healthy still, though at the moment my prostate is causing some inconvenience and embarrassment), I can with cheerful gloom envision a day when I will be so uncomfortable and in so much pain that I will no longer want to be alive.
The exact measurement between what Ree considers the sensible precautions people here take and her atheistic sisters’ “morbid and desperate” attempts to stay alive seems like a difficult calculation to make. Perhaps if you preach to them incessantly the problem may resolve itself?
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Mumsee, thank you for your reply. I hope what you are describing to us matches up with what she is really experiencing.
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Thanks for the melatonin information, Phos. Melatonin production naturally decreases with age (I’m 50), and my doctor suggested last spring that melatonin supplementation might help me sleep better (I’d often wake up about 3-4 hours after falling asleep, then wouldn’t be able to get back to sleep for another approximately 2 hours). It did help with that, and I usually now sleep deeply for about 6 or so hours, then lightly for another couple hours, without frequent waking up or long stretches of being awake.
It’s interesting, though, that you mention depression could be a side effect of taking melatonin. My doctor never mentioned that, which seems strange, because at that same appointment, after I’d happened to tell him about the several deaths of friends and family members (4 friends and 2 relatives) I’d experienced in an 8-month period in 2011, and how grieving had affected my everyday functioning to a certain extent for a while, he asked me if I thought I was depressed.
It seems funny that he would recommend to a person he thinks might be depressed a supplement that could cause depression. Maybe he wasn’t concerned since I told him I didn’t think I was depressed (I think there’s a normal sadness that occurs with loss that doesn’t necessarily mean one is depressed and needs medication), but it’s weird that he wouldn’t say anything about that possible side effect, especially when he recommended the highest dosage I’ve seen (5 mg). Or maybe he didn’t know of its possible depressive effects?
In any case, it’s good to know about the dangers of suddenly stopping something like that. I had been thinking about cutting back on the dosage, either getting a different brand with fewer milligrams, or dividing up the contents of the capsule over the course of 2 or more days, which is a possibility indicated on the label.
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A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, life evolved from the ooze. A few years later–it doesn’t matter how many years, does it?–some evolved life forms started criticizing other evolved life forms for being judgmental. Question: How would anyone be able to tell which evolved life forms had the “better” system of morality?
In a “random” world, there is no “better,” so it doesn’t make sense to criticize anyone for anything. Strangely, that doesn’t keep believers in a random world from criticizing others.
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Before I run off, Solarpancake:
What Christian claims not to “believe in empiricism”? Christians have great reason to believe in empiricism.
Well, Ree got into this a bit also. I can imagine that some world I can’t detect exists and call it “empiricism.” I can say empiricism exists in this physical world we all seem to experience, but I can say some other world also exists and that there are other kinds of knowledge BESIDES empiricism. I can say a few dubious lines in a book written thousands of years ago provide “PROOF” there is a God who had a Son who died for our sins because of the original two people disobeyed a God who dictated a book that tells us that it is true and that is empirical proof that the book is true. It’s not proof, but let me invite you to meet a friend of mine called circular reasoning. He’s a lot of fun. Some people circle that track thousands of times in their life.
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Well, Random, if you could see her before and now, you would know. But then, maybe I am just making this whole thing up and really I just live in a psych ward with spiffy soft walls!
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AJ and SolarPancake, my married name (which I don’t disclose online) is the same as a movie star from another era, but many people younger than I am (50) and some who are older have never heard of this actress, so I don’t get a lot of the comments you guys get with your familiar names. Occasionally, if I’m writing out a check at a store with an older sales clerk, or am going to vote and give my name to an older worker at the polls, the person will smile and ask me if I knew that there had been an actress by that name and had I seen [this certain movie] and so on.
One time I got asked if my husband’s name was [name of this actress’s second husband]. Her second husband was very famous (you’ve all heard of him, I feel quite confident of that) and did not die as young as she did. If my husband’s name were the same as that man, I know he would be getting plenty of comments about that. 😉
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Just when I thought I had the problem whupped… it got worse. A LOT worse.
The housing was cracked from the attempt to remove the remnant of brass elbow. Now instead of taking a couple hours and a few dollars it’s going to probably take several days and cost thousands…
I’ve not had a good day.
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Sorry about that, MIM. Not fun.
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6Arrows – That reminds me of a relative of mine who was depressed and so the doctor prescribed her an anti-depressant. She had not had any thoughts of suicide up to that point, but she suddenly had an intense urge to commit suicide. She looked at the side effects and found that the medication actually was associated with an increase suicide rate. Needless to say, she stopped taking the medication. I find a lot of doctors are not fully aware of serious side effects – they are often subjected to intense marketing by the drug manufacturers, which play up the benefits and downplay the risks.
By the way, I am familiar with the actress with whom you share a name.
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Random, I suspect Ree has gotten into this subject with you already, but let me get this straight: Do you allege that the only reliable kind of knowledge that exists is empirical knowledge? If so, how would such an assertion be proven empirically?
But more telling is your casting what Ree has already said to you in such ridiculous terms. You’re making my point about not responding to what has been provided you here.
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Hey 6 Arrows and AJ: I should clarify that my name isn’t really Michael Jordon or Michael Jordan or any name of any fame at all. I just go by my regular old birth name of John Elway.
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Stephen,
Could you explain the proof for neo-Darwinian evolution without relying on circular reasoning for me please?
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6 Arrows is really named Kathleen Grayson.
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Do you mean the actress Kathryn Grayson, Chas? I see she was born in North Carolina.
Sorry, but wrong. 😉
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hey, the real! Could you please sing us a song????
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Marilyn Monroe?
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Is “What’s my name?” the QoD or something?
If anybody guesses correctly, I’ll have to stop saying “no” and say, “um…maybe, maybe not!”
🙂
Phos, I’m impressed you’ve heard of her. A well-rounded education you have had. 😉
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Mumsee (@6:15) is a troublemaker.
I don’t hear any singing yet, though, the real…
(She started it.)
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Wouldn’t it be weird if someone thought the only kind of reliable knowledge was “empirical” knowledge (whatever that meant)? And if that person thought circular reasoning was bad, wouldn’t it be evem weirder? Because just think how silly it would be to have to try to prove empirical knowledge was the only kind of good knowledge. You’d be stuck trying to do that using only empirical knowledge. Just think how circular that would be!
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And how does one empirically prove circular reasoning is bad? Is that statement etched in a rock formation somehwere?
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Phos, glad to hear your relative looked into the side effects of her medication and stopped taking it, instead of acting on the suicidal urges it caused. It’s too bad that patients aren’t fully briefed by their doctors in the first place on the symptoms antidepressants can cause. I do believe aggressive marketing of pharmaceuticals does contribute to the problem.
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In the beginning there was nothing. Absolutely nothing. Can you imagine nothing at all? But, suddenly, out of this nothing, there was this Big Bang.
You have to be real smart to believe that.
My mind is too small to imagine the concept of absolutely nothing, especially one that explodes.
The lesson here is that you don’t mess around with nothing.
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My prescription for not being able to sleep is to eat turkey. It always puts me to sleep!
For Tammy—have you heard that the night shade group of foods can cause arthritis type symptoms? Those are potatoes, tomatoes, peppers and eggplant. I am afflicted with those type pains if I have many of those foods. It is like a toxin in my body and causes inflamation which will go away if I don’t have those foods. I have found that eating potato skins is especially bad for me so if I cook potatoes I try to peel away a thick portion of the skin. I do eat sweet potatoes which do not seem to be so bad like the white potatoes. You may want to consider that. It may also have to do with your blood type. Supposedly the O+ is the oldest blood type and people with that type were the hunters and existed mostly on meat and then the other folks came along with other blood types with more needs for vegetables. I got this information from the book Eat Right For Your Blood Type. It could be a consideration for your situation.
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Here is a link to an article about the night shade veggies:
http://suite101.com/article/nightshades-a59252
I see it says they can also be the culprit in migraine headaches, too.
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😦
Not funny Mums.
But cake would make me feel better.
🙂
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Now 6 Arrows you have my curiosity up. It is really going to bug me until I figure out your name. Can’t be Jayne Mansfield, might be Kim Novak, Ava Gardner was too famous on her own. You didn’t mention an athlete so it wasn’t Sonia Henning……..
Anti-depressents? Prozac saved my life once and got me through the 6 months following my father’s death. Both times I carefully weened myself off of it. Now I rely on plain ol’ sunshine and inositol (also helps you sleep).
Depression isn’t anything to take too lightly. I think it is most important to have a family doctor who knows you and what you are really like. I bargained with mine. He offered me 20mg of prozac. I asked for 80mg. He finally agreed to give me 40 mg. I plainly stated that I wanted to sit in a corner and drool and not feel a thing. He wouldn’t agree to those kinds of drugs.
My final word on anti-depressants. If you know yourself and you know something is wrong and your doctor thinks it would be good…TAKE them! If you were diabetic would you refuse to take insulin? Then tell someone close to you what you are taking and ask them to watch you for any strange behaviour.
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Looks like we’ve got a food thread going here now…turkey, nightshades, cake. Sounds good to me!
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well, that really takes the cake, the real. Have you not heard that you cannot have your cake and eat it too?
I will sing you a song of Spiro Agnew, and all the things he’s done….
That was a song on a John Denver album.
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OK, Kim, I’ll give you a little hint. Her 2nd husband was a very famous movie actor. If that doesn’t help much, you can get my email from The Real AJ, and I’ll tell you. 😉
BTW, thanks for your commentary on antidepressants. Very good advice when you said, “If you know yourself and you know something is wrong and your doctor thinks it would be good…TAKE them!” And this: “Then tell someone close to you what you are taking and ask them to watch you for any strange behaviour.”
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I think night shade is good. I always pull down my shade at night.
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Kim, your avatar changed while I was typing! Great picture! 🙂
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Well, Kevin, hello! And how nice of you to sneak in and grab 99 so I could get 100! I haven’t done that in a long time!
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You’re welcome. I’m always happy to set up a shot for you.
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6Arrows. I sent AJ a message to please send you my email address.
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Wise advice, Kim, on the antidepressants. A friend of ours went through the same thing. Depressed, but no thoughts of suicide until put on Zoloft. He realized in time what was causing it and weaned himself off.
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Well 6arrows….I know Carol Lombard was married to famous actors….the second more famous to some than the other…but, I liked the first one the best! 🙂
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AJ 11/19 11:42
“The 14 scenes depicting Jesus Christ’s birth have long been a popular attraction among area residents and tourists to the southern California city.
This year, however, atheists have taken over most of the two-block stretch, nearly shutting out and angering a group of churches who contend the atheists have organized against the Christians and gamed a city lottery process allocating the holiday exhibit space.”
“The atheists group won from the city 18 of the 21 exhibit spaces — leaving only two plots to the Christian churches and one to a rabbi erecting a Menorah scene. The venue is Palisades Park, with vistas of the Santa Monica Pier and, in the distance, the coastal mountains of Malibu.
“We don’t object to them being there. We just object to them manipulating the rules, to try to deprive us of our freedom of speech,” Jameson said. “You add everything together, there would be enough room in the two blocks to take care of all the displays. It’s a matter of portioning the space fairly, and we are undertaking a petition drive.””
This is a fairly typical example of what I used to call “drama queen” theatrics on wmb. Christians are used to dominating the culture of the United States. The culture of the United States have always included a variety of religious people and secular people. Most (but not all) of the religious people have been Christians. All people have different ideas about “truth” and about public decisions. Whether or not “birth control” should be legal is an example of a public decision that impacts the quality of people’s lives in significant and tangible ways. Whether or not an area typically and traditionally allowed for religious displays has been “taken over” by atheists is in my opinion a “drama queen” issue; one showing atheists outwitting Christians at something they have taken for granted as “their right.”
As an atheist, this cracks me up. Christians have been outwitted and outmaneuvered at their own game of dominating public discourse. Denying birth control to a woman who might want to limit how many children she has for health reasons is to me a serious issue. Not being able to put up a religious display because an atheist queued up first for it is in my opinion a “drama queen” issue. No one will suffer ill health because of it. Even if there is a Heaven and Hell (which as you know I don’t for a second believe in), no one is likely to go to Heaven or avoid Hell because of a few displays on a short stretch of Los Angeles real estate. In “drama queen” contests, the biggest “drama queen” loses. My granddaughter when very little was an immense drama queen. (Even her birth mother so described her.) Now that she has reached the age of 8, she has turned down the histrionics. As a result, her likelihood of being immensely spoiled this Thanksgiving through Christmas by her immense crowd of grandparents has increased greatly. As a result, even though she has been to church at least a few times, her chances of going to Hell are increased astronomically. (Even though the church services she attended were given by one of her grandfathers, a Methodist minister who once went on “Freedom Marches” with Martin Luther King.)
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Denying birth control to a woman …
Who’s doing this, and how? Sounds like the argument of what I like to call a “drama queen.”
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Responding to several people.
The only reality I know is the empirical reality I experience each day. I wake up in the same bed. I look over and see the same wife. I look outside and see the same trees. I go outside and hear and see the same chickens.
My usually stay at home wife and I decided to “splurge” some of our slim money and took a train across Canada, visited my brother, sister, and niece and “nephew in law” and sister in law and two “real” nieces” and a great nice removed and great nephew removed (at this time I get totally jumbled in the family tree terminology). Then we took Amtrak back across the United States. During the trip I viewed a lot of scenery and talked with a lot of interesting people, including people from Australia, England, Canada, Lebanon, Cuba, etc. We also met and had an enjoyable atheist couple from Brtish Columbia. (She a doctor who trains doctors. He raises chickens and sheep). We met a number of interesting people (all Americans) on the return trip. We were intrigued by Portland, Maine. We have lived in Portland, OR, a place that obviously imitated Portland, Maine.
Although we experienced interesting and sometimes surprising sights, sounds, feels, tastes, and conversations (some wiht believers and some with secularists), nothing struck us as providing anything out of the bounds of what I call “empirical reality.”
That you “know” something more exists is interesting. That you keep telling me that I am incorrect is interesting, irritating, and amusing. When I was much younger, I became very intrigued with Skinnerian “operant conditioning reinforcement.” I am much less impressed with it than I was, but I think it has some validity for training and affecting animals. (Human beings, by the way, are animals.) One of Skinner’s theories was that “intermittent” reinforcement is more effective in the long run than regular reinforcement.
You respond to me intermittently. I respond to you intermittently. We keep responding to each other to each other. We never convince each other of very much if anything. Nevertheless, we keep responding to each other. How quaint.
One of the most interesting writers/thinkers I’ve read over the last few years is Temple Grandin, probably the most informed and intelligent autistic people in the world. She is very familiar with animal training as she perceives the world much as an animal does and then translates animal thought and communication into “human speak” (something she had to teach herself). She studied under B. F. Skinner and became very familiar with both the accuracy of his theories and the limits of his theories. (It was quite interesting and amusing to me that she describes Skinner himself as what I would call “a creep” who tried to feel her up when she was in his office with him.) I’ve always been a fan of science fiction. It’s most likely to me that we will not meet intelligent “aliens” from other planets or solar systems in my life time. Temple Grandin, the autistic person who taught herself to “speak human,” is the closest thing we will ever encounter to an alien in my life time. (Incidentally, she speaks with great familiarity about Christianity in her autobiography, though not in a way that indictes whether she is a “believer” or not. I doubt it very much, but I don’t know.)
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Responding to several people.
Impressive, considering you just cut and pasted that entire entry from a handful of posts you’ve made over the last few weeks. At least, that’s what I think you did. But what I know you *didn’t* do was “respond” to anyone. And by “respond” I mean “provide an answer to anything anyone said to you.”
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Solar Pancake.
Who’s doing this and how?
[Referring to denying birth control.] It’s kind of old news. Perhaps you should read some history. For a long time, birth control of any kind was illegal in the United States. Over a long time and with quite a bit of argument, birth control of all varieties became legal.
I’ve read many statements on World Mag Blog and other places claiming that the “birth control pill” (one of the most popular methods used in the world) is an abortifacient. Here’s a fairly current and in my opinion coherently stated example from a California attorney.
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It’s kind of old news.
Yeah, I guess it is. I asked my question in the present tense, so….
Who’s denying birth control, and how?
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Kim, sounds good. I’ll watch my inbox.
Chas, Donna, and NancyJill — I took the opportunity to learn more about the actresses you guessed (and some of the men with whom they associated). What a tragic and tangled state of affairs with most of them. I knew that generally, but some of the specifics — wow. What a mess Hollywood has been for a long time.
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Easy question for your, Random/modesty/whatever:
Where in the article you linked to does the author attempt to “deny birth control to a woman.” If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were being a drama queen.
Another easy question: Is it possible to *empirically* prove that empirical knowledge is the only valid knowledge?
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Good questions solar pancake. And I’m still waiting for a non-circular defense of neo-Darwinism.
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Solar Pancake, I now promote you to the WV “first string team” of hair splitters.
I clearly said that “denying birth control” was ancient history. Birth control is now legal in the United States. The battle about “reproductive policy” (a fairly neutral term, I think) continues.
My points of view: abortion is one of the most difficult moral issues of our time. I think abortion should not be viewed as a “method of birth control” (abortion is mostly used as as a method of birth control, as far as I know, in Japan and China). I think we should strive to make abortion as rare as possible, but not ban it completely.
Assumption : Everyone here (with very few exceptions, if any) opposes abortion and would like if possible to make it illegal all the time throughout the United States. Is this not correct? Please answer here or in confidence to my “public email” eman_modnar@yahoo.com. (I will total responses; I will not identify senders if any.)
While I don’t know of any attempts right now to make birth control illegal, I see one possible future battle and one present battle about birth control.
Present battle: Should employers be required to provide birth control to employees as part of their employee benefits programs? The most contested case I can quickly locate involves two Christian-owned companies in Oklahoma called Hobby Lobby and Mardel. They are fighting in court attempts to require them to provide some controversial birth control.
A federal judge Monday rejected Hobby Lobby Stores Inc.’s request to block part of the federal health care overhaul that requires the arts and craft supply company to provide insurance coverage for the morning-after and week-after birth control pills.
In a 28-page ruling, U.S. District Judge Joe Heaton denied a request by Hobby Lobby to prevent the government from enforcing portions of the health care law mandating insurance coverage for contraceptives the company’s Christian owners consider objectionable.
Rest of article at http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/19/judge-rejects-hobby-lobby-case-against-obamacare-contraceptive-coverage-mandate/#ixzz2CjaN1yfT
Can these companies efforts be described as “denying birth control” to citizens? Probably not. Should they be forced by the government to provide these birth control methods? If it were up to me, I would probably say “yes.” If I were a judge, I probably would rule against them. If you would rule otherwise (would you?), I would not consider you evil or tyrannical. I just disagree with you.
Possible battle:. Going back to the previous link I provided. A lawyer in California coherently, calmly, and logically states an argument that “conventional” birth control pills (at least slightly different than the “morning after” and “week-after” pills in the Hobby Lobby/Mardel case) are at least some of the time abortifacients. At the moment, conservative Christians seem to be on the defensive and losing side. In football terms, I would say that you are on your own five-yard line; it’s third down; and you have forty yards to go to make a first down. But politics, like football, sometimes turns around quickly in dramatic ways. (Consider the recent homosexual marriage victories in several states. I am very surprised.) So I disagree with Kristi Burton Brown, but I don’t regard her as stupid or incompetent. She’s probably a very skillful lawyer. If she considers birth control as sometimes an abortifacient, is it not impossible that there will never be a rapid and major resurgence of conservative Christian right (that is, you guys), an election of a conservative religious President (someone such as Ryan for example), appointment of supporting Supreme Court justices to a majority of the Court, and an attempt once again to ban abortion by court ruling and/or election and/or referendum?
I don’t think it likely. But I wasn’t expecting Pearl Harbor (well, I was -1 year old); I wasn’t expecting 9/11 (any more than George Bush was); I wasn’t expecting the Iraq War; I wasn’t expecting the Afghanistan War; I’m not expecting to go to Hell after I die; I’m not expecting the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Some of this you do expect, do you not?
Now if there WAS an attempt to make birth control illegal (at least the kind I’ve discussed), wouldn’t you support that attempt?
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Ree just posted while I was replying to Solarpancake. I am replying to her question here about evolution.
Science is not easy. I am not a “rocket scientist” or a brain surgeon.
I seldom if ever use the word “proof.” In high school I passed geometry reasonably well. On tests, I “proved” theorems to my teacher’s satisfaction. My wife and I won a big court case against a group of people I considered to be running a combination cult/scam and defrauding many people in the process. The jury ruled in our favor, so I guess we “proved” our case. The judgment was appealed to the Oregon Supreme Court and upheld.
I don’t find people arguing about the “law of gravity” very often. I guess when people jump out of tall buildings (9/11 being a tragic example), they “prove” the “law of gravity” when they splat on the street or pavement. I consider the law “proven”; you are welcome to provide a counter demonstration. Would use of a parachute “prove” something different?
The “theory of evolution” is quite a bit more complicated and difficult to “prove” than the law of gravity.
In simplest terms I can provide:
Either:
1) Human beings began when an entity called God placed two sentient, aware, speaking adult humans on the planet earth.
Or:
2) Human beings slowly evolved over thousands of years from predecessors of primates. They had competitors who didn’t “make it” such as Neanderthals and the “hobbit people” of Asia. There is a fragmentary fossil record of these creatures. If someone doesn’t “believe this,” I find their skepticism understandable. I just don’t agree.
I am not going to “prove” this to your satisfaction, or to the satisfaction of anyone else here. I’ve read books about evolution. I am not going to try and reproduce them (with their hundreds of pages of thick argument) here. You are capable of reading them. Maybe you have.
Bottom line: we disagree. That’s the way it is. Most people here, with the possible exceptions of Ree, Sails, and Solarpancake, are probably not very interested in our discussion and probably made up their minds a long time ago. The only thing that would interest most people here would be if I suddenly declared myself a believer, and the “rush” of getting a “conversion-addiction” hit would lose its thrill in about five minutes of less.
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Random Name: Splitting hairs, eh? I’d more accurately describe it as “reading what you wrote.” You first posted that Christians are “denying birth control to a woman.” OK, I’ll accept your updated phrasing. So is it really really your position that, in “ancient history,” it was *Christians* who denied birth control to women? What kind of birth control was denied? Words mean stuff, wouldn’t you agree? If an employer doesn’t want to provide coverage for, say, plastic surgery, would you argue that employer was attempting to “deny” employees from having that surgery? I wouldn’t either, because I’m not a drama queen.
Shorten your posts. I don’t read your vignettes. They’re pointless.
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At 7:15 Chas said:
In the beginning there was nothing. Absolutely nothing. Can you imagine nothing at all? But, suddenly, out of this nothing, there was this Big Bang.
You have to be real smart to believe that.
My mind is too small to imagine the concept of absolutely nothing, especially one that explodes.
The lesson here is that you don’t mess around with nothing.
Amazon books has a listing for a book called: A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing
Apparently theoretical physicist theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss argues that the universe did in fact come from nothing. I haven’t read the book. I am not sure I would understand the book if I read it. I have books by Chesterton, Lewis, and John Barry ahead of it in line I am committed to read.
So all I will say now is that again we have two conflicting points of view.
1) There is some being called God who has existed and will exist eternally and created the universe and us. I find this preposterous and unbelievable.
Or
2) There is some other process that is compatible with empirical science and explains why the universe exists. At the moment, I don’t understand it and from what little I know it sounds preposterous and unbelievable.
“Alice laughed: “There’s no use trying,” she said; “one can’t believe impossible things.”
“I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
Alice in Wonderland.
Lewis Carroll [Charles Lutwidge Dodgeson] was as far as I know a fairly good mathematician, fairly talented imaginative writer, and perhaps a child molester. Wikipedia says, “In broad terms, Dodgson has traditionally been regarded as politically, religiously, and personally conservative.”
What we know of Dodgeson’s life is confusing and muddled by many missing documents. He became a skilled photographer (in early days of the craft) and took pictures of nude female children, leading to a lot of speculation that he was a pedophile. However, there is considerable backlash against that argument, and counter arguments that he had “normal” sexual interest in adult women. Whatever. The world is full of mysteries.
In any case, I don’t “know” how the universe began, and find Chas’ argument no more convincing than anything else. If I get around to reading Universe from Nothing before I die, and think I have something intelligent and informative to say (an always dubious proposition) I will inflict it on everyone. That’s a threat.
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Solarpancake
I am not much deterred or abashed by your comments. Mostly each of us convinces ourselves. I think this process is often labeled narcissism. Maybe that doesn’t apply to you, but think about it. Good night.
Ree, I think I’ve read everything you wrote today and made all the replies I feel like. If I had a magic ear, I would love to hear conversations between you and your sisters, but what I imagine is probably nothing like the reality.
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Not deterred, OK. I can deal with that. But not *abashed*? After I TOTALLY set out to do some abashing? Now I’ll never sleep. I’ll be worried about narcissism (after looking up that word online) and whether it applies to me and zzzzzzz…….
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Stephen,
Thanks for letting me know. I’d still like to know if you read my final post/s on November 16 responding to your Barry post.
A thing needn’t be measurable to be real. Desperate and morbid are subjective terms based on my perception. But if you’re disputing that there’s a difference between my attitude and theirs, it’s apparent. They see it too, but they seem to attribute it to my being in denial or something.
But no doubt your imagination of our conversations is nothing like the reality.
Another point of confusion with you, and a huge one it is, is on the distinction between proof and persuasion.
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