Good Morning!
How are ya’?
Quote of the Day
“You don’t choose your family. They are God’s gift to you, as you are to them.”
Desmond Tutu
Wandering Views
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Good Morning!
How are ya’?
Quote of the Day
“You don’t choose your family. They are God’s gift to you, as you are to them.”
Desmond Tutu
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Wandering Views 
Good morning everyone. I love today’s quote. My family is the greatest gift that’s been given to me! “Every good and perfect gift comes from above.”
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You can pick your nose and you can pick your friends but you can’t pick your friend’s nose- I don’t know who originally said it.
You can’t pick your family either, but when it really comes down to it family and friends-friends that are almost like family- are all you’ve got. (Yes, I know that you have God, I am referring to the physical form and someone who can bail you out of a jam) Family can also hurt you more than anyone else can. I know this because I have experienced it all.
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I got this e-mail form my DIL and from GD. And my reply. Some of you may disagree.
Any comments?
Becky and I are doing a bible study. The challenge question is who is Cain’s wife? I think it could be his sister. Your thoughts?
Linda
Then, this from Becky.
It would have to be unless Able had a daughter but who would he have had a baby with??
Sent from my iPhone
This question has come up several times before.
I think the problem is that we think they were the only people in the world at the time. Adam & Eve lived a long time and likely had other children. Obviously, somewhere, someone married a sister. We, in Western culture, think that is bad. But not necessarily so. It was the custom in Egyptian royalty.
We have recorded the children that were significant in some way. It is likely that both Cain and Abel had other children at this time. Cain said, “I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth.” If he were the only one, it wouldn’t matter. Then Cain and his wife went to Nod and built a city. Just the two of them?
There is more to this than we are told.
Eden was not the entire world at the time. It was a garden placed east in Eden. We don’t know how long they were there before they sinned, but it was before they had children.
The Bible is essentially a record of the history of sin and redemption. Most our problems are concerned with the things left out. i.e. Lots of things happened before Cain killed Abel. Lots of things happened before the flood, and Babel, etc.
We need to be careful not to fill in the blanks.
Dad
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Good Morning all! I am very grateful for my family. They are wonderful gifts to me. Good conversationalits all; that is no small thing. And all have a roaring sense of humor.
Kim, Anna and Chris are finally back in Pensacola from Gainesville. Chris is now in recovery mode. What’s a little brain surgery, eh?
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Chas,
I belatedly saw your question a few days ago about whether or not you saw me at the food court at the Air & Space Museum. I was at the one in Virginia near Dulles (not the one on the National Mall in DC) last Saturday afternoon, and did eat at the McDonald’s there somewhere around 2 pm. Were you also there?
Kevin
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QofD: As for cultural events, do you prefer to visit an art museum, go to a play or go to a symphony? Or is there some other event that you like best? Why?
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I choose the play over the others because it can encompass the others. The costumes and settings are pieces of artwork and can almost have the feel of a painting or portrait for at least a moment. A play also may have music included.
I do enjoy the sense of getting lost in the music at a symphony. It can feel totally relaxing.
I love an art museum because you can really get involved with the details in the artist’s work. It is not moving like a play or symphony so you really have as much time as you need to digest the beauty or message of the work.
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Kevin, we left Friday morning and I was home on Saturday.
We visited the Air & Space Museum on Thursday, among other things.
We were there a week and only went into DC once. I have visited the museum at Dulles once, but not this time. Most of our time was visiting and renewing places we had been and connecting with some, but not as many as before.
Our reasons for visiting the DC area are fewer each year.
And more difficult each year.
We may have made our last visit up there.
We are certain that we’ll never go to Virginia Beach again. Maybe Williamsburg.
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You could say we chose eleven of our fifteen children, but really, we believe God chose them for us and us for them. You could say all of them who were age twelve when the court finalized, chose us as they all had to sign a paper saying they wanted to be with us.
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Family is awesome – daughter is coming home on Saturday to celebrate her 24th birthday!
Today was a big change for me – I came to this site BEFORE I checked my Facebook! 😀
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Oh, and I received Phos’ prayer letter – thanks Michelle!
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Chas, when my husband and I went to an area near Virginia Beach, a National Seashore or Wildlife Refuge area, we experienced terrible black biting flies. That is the most we remember about the area. For some reason the flies only landed on us. We did not see any other people there who were spending all their moments swatting. We assumed the others had all used a repellent. I know they say “Virginia Beach is for lovers.” Well, with all those biting flies, people would not even be able to get in a quick kiss, just a smack on a fly! Actually, anyone watching us on the beach from a distance might have thought we were doing some kind of weird dance.
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QoD: All of the above 😉
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Good Morning, Y’all!
My family has been a blessing to me. You do techically choose your in-laws however…did pretty well there, as well.
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I used to subscribe to USN&WR, but dropped it when it went digital. I don’t like leaning over a computer screen to read. I get most of my news online and from FoxNews. I do scan other sources, including CNN & MSNBC, but don’t stay long.
I take the Times-News, but don’t know why.
(Reuters) – Newsweek, the venerable U.S. weekly current affairs magazine, will publish its final print edition on December 31 and move to an all-digital format early next year, the latest example of how print media have had to adapt to changing reading habits.
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I like this quote of the day; I actually have been writing an essay in my mind on this very subject!
When I got married, I started doing a lot of thinking about the idea of choosing one’s family. Basically, we Americans believe we can choose just about everything in life. We choose where we live, what college to attend, what career to pursue, whom to marry, even (for many people) how many children to have and when to have them. (Some don’t use birth control; some have children in spite of birth control; and some deal with infertility. But the typical American couple decides “when” to have their one or two children, and generally gets pregnant within a few months of trying, and then chooses when to stop having children.)
When I got married, I was very aware that my husband and I chose each other, but the other family members were “part of the deal.” That does not mean they were a bad part of the deal–I think his parents and I would readily have chosen one another, and I was delighted the girls were part of the deal and they like me as well. But the choice part really was that he chose me and I said yes.
One day early on in our marriage I was crying and saying I knew it was hard for the girls, because their dad chose me and that meant they were stuck with me; they didn’t get to choose me. He said something very wise at that point: he told me the girls wouldn’t remember it, but they actually didn’t get to choose the mother who gave birth to them either! It’s true–they were assigned to that mother, too; they didn’t choose her.
And I started mulling over something: We Americans think we make all our choices. (The untrue cliche, “You can do/be anything you want to be” comes to mind.) But throughout most of the world, and most of history, no one would have even considered the notion of “choosing” family! Spouses would agree to marry, but they might or might not have had any part in “choosing” each other. (And even those who did choose made that choice from a small number of options: other singles of the right age and class in their own town and social circle.) In fact, people largely didn’t really even choose whether to marry or not; when you were the right age to marry, you married, and something was wrong if you didn’t. Children were born as a natural part of marriage. Extended family and in-laws came as a natural part of life.
Part of the problem with us believing we choose our family is the opposite end of that spectrum: if we choose, we can reject. If we decide we no longer love the one we have chosen, we can divorce him. If we decide we don’t want children, then we don’t have any; if we end up getting pregnant without choosing to, we speak of the child, or at least the pregnancy, as an “accident” rather than as an expected, and joyful, result of marriage.
But as Desmond Tutu said, “You don’t choose your family. They are God’s gift to you, as you are to them.”
There, I wrote my essay. 🙂
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Nice, Cheryl. Thanks.
🙂
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QoD: It depends on the museum, play, or symphony, and in the case of the play or symphony, the quality of the performers as well as the work itself. If I had to simply choose among the three, I would say symphony, because I think there are fewer symphony performances that I would not enjoy compared to plays or art museums. But I’m sure there are some plays I would choose over some symphonies, and art museums I would choose over either if it were one I would not have the opportunity to visit again (i.e. if I were traveling far from home).
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QoD: I’s a close call between the play and the symphony. I guess it depends on which ones they were.
I’m deficient in art appreciation. I’ve gone along on trips to art museums to be polite, and gone to a couple in college when I was required to for an art history class, but I really don’t enjoy it.
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It depends on the event and who I’m with. I enjoy symphonies, plays, art museums, and many other venues. Twice I’ve been to art exhibit openings, and those are particularly nice. I’d generally prefer any and all of these to a movie, but once every year or two I go to a movie. (We’ll see the Hobbit.)
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QoD: Symphony for sure, unless the play were something that interested me.
Chas said: Eden was not the entire world at the time. It was a garden placed east in Eden. We don’t know how long they were there before they sinned, but it was before they had children.
How do we know they had no children before they sinned? One of God’s commands was to be fruitful and multiply. If they hadn’t any children yet,m than eating the forbidden fruit was not the only command they disobeyed. Also, Genesis also tells us Adam had other children besides Cain, Abel and Seth. There were most likely sisters for the men to marry, and perhpas there were several between Abel and Seth.
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Surely Adam & Eve had other children.
If they had them before they sinned, there could be a race of people not affected by original sin. I surmise from logic; 1 Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam, all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
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We don’t know how long they lasted as perfect creatures. My guess is not long enough to have a child.
As far as who Cain married, it’s pretty obvious that his only option would be a sister. In many cultures, people still marry close relatives. Most people here marry first cousins. When a man is looking for a wife, he always goes to family, usually his mother’s brother, to see if there are any girls available.
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Mission accomplished. The judge was happy to see us, as usual. We were happy to see him. The boys are delighted, as are the rest of us. The pizza was good.
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QoD: probably the symphony. As a former symphony musician, it’s nice to be on the opposite side of the music stand now. I’m better able to soak in all the tone colors of the orchestra when I’m not tied to the visual aspect of seeing my own part printed on a page in front of me.
I do love a good play, though, too, especially if it’s a musical.
Art museums: never been to one. I never took much interest in any sort of art until after I met my husband and saw how well he could draw. Several of our children are quite artistic, also, so that has really increased my love and appreciation for art.
One of the most profound books I’ve ever seen is a book World Magazine reviewed a couple years back, I think, entitled Drawing Autism. I got it through interlibrary loan and would like to own my own copy of it someday. All the drawings were by autistic individuals, and each drawing was accompanied by an explanation, either by the artist or by a caregiver, of what the artist’s thoughts or circumstances were prior to making the drawing.
I find autistic people to be quite fascinating, and to see the fruit of their thinking rendered on paper, and hear the stories that accompany those drawings is so awe-inspiring for me.
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Congratulations, Mumsee. I’m so happy for all of you.
“The pizza was good” put a smile on the faces of 3rd Arrow and her mom as we read your post. 🙂
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Congratulations, Mumsee!
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Hi All,
Just popping in to say Hi. I had a very nice day with my wife Cheryl’s family. It was a blessing to my M-i-L. I love these folks. They’re good people.
Tomorrow is F-i-L’s service. I will miss him. But he is now beyond the pain and illness to something far better, and in the presence of our Lord. Knowing that helps ease the loss, at least a little. I’m thankful for it.
Talk to you all tomorrow.
Allen
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Congrats Mumsee and Mike!
🙂
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Yes, congratulations to Mumsee & family.
A question for Donna: I just saw an AP report about a dog which lost its snout saving two girls from being hit by a motorcycle in the Philippines. The article said the dog had arrived in CA. Do you have anything on that? Sounds like quite a sacrificial effort on the dogs part!
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Peter L., there are at least two other options to their not having children yet, other than that they sinned. One is that they ate the fruit too early to have had children, more likely to early to have even conceived. This is what I think most likely. The other is that God did not allow Eve to conceive immediately, perhaps because He knew she would soon sin and that one unfallen child should not live in a fallen world. But my own hunch is that the Fall happened pretty early in human history, perhaps the second or third day or so. Satan did not want to see this new family follow God, and heprobably brought his temptation as quickly as he could.
BTW, we are only given the names of a few of Adam’s children, all sons (as a rule women aren’t mentioned by name in Scripture unless they’re important to the story; people sometimes say, for example, that Jacob has 12 sons and one daughter, but the reality is we only know he had “at least one daughter”; we know about Dinah because we have a story about her, but probably he also had other daughters). For Adam, we know of Cain and Abel and Seth, but we are specifically told they had other children, in Genesis 5:1-5 ” This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.”
We aren’t told who Cain and Seth (and the other sons) married, but some at least must have married their sisters, and perhaps others married nieces or nephews. But incest only began to be a problem once we had had a few generations of fallen people; marrying relatives is a genetic problem as much as a moral one, and it wasn’t a moral one until God said it was. So they wouldn’t have thought anything of marrying their sisters.
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The fact is that Adam and Eve represented the whole human race. I do not see it as a logical conclusion that only children they had AFTER the Fall would be touched by their sin. In most such cultures, the sin/shame of the father/mother falls to all offspring whether born or unborn.
I think we tend to read in a great deal based on our ideas and culture.
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New Hubs had today off. (He aslo has tomorrow off). When I got home I had BBQ chicken and potato salad. The hall closet had been cleaned out and more stuff put up in the attic.
He did make me break up with my lawn care guy. 😦 I called him today and told him my new husband said I had to break up with him. He laughed. I did get him the gig doing the landscaping and maintenance for my church.
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Kim, Wikipedia gives credit for you “pick your nose” quote from this morning to Frank Zappa and a Mothers of Invention recording from 1968 🙂
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Kim and Kay, a variation I heard on that was “You can pick your nose, you can pick your friends, but you can’t wipe your friends on the bottom of your chair.” 🙂
I don’t know who said that; probably my brother or somebody.
(I am probably going to wish for a delete feature on this one.)
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But onto more wholesome things…
Thank you for your essay, Cheryl (11:58 a.m.). Very nice.
Janice’s QoD made me think of a spin-off of the question (an AQod, or maybe a QoN — Question of the Night — or perhaps the QoD for tomorrow since some of us are probably sleeping by now?).
What is your favorite symphony, or play, or piece of art?
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And by symphony, you could answer with either a symphonic work (like Beethoven’s 6th Symphony — the Pastoral Symphony) or a symphonic group (for example, the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, or the Zurich Chamber Orchestra, etc.).
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Well, I have a grocery list to figure out. Should have done that earlier, but what can I say, procrastination is my middle name. 😦
But I’m thankful for a hard-working husband, and do want to emulate him. So off I go. 🙂
Life is good, and I have much for which to be grateful.
Have yourselves a nice night, all.
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It occurs to me that I haven’t seen Pastor Roy in quite awhile. Are you out there, Roy? How are things going?
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Tigers sweep Yankees in 4 straight to win the AL pennant. Go, Tigers!
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1/7 Christians such as most of you, tell me that you know something about the state of the universe in regard to life after physical death, consequences of good and evil behavior in this life, the behavior of Christians and other groups of people, and the benefits of belonging to churches.
Christians (including many reading this) have told me you know something about the state of the universe, including information about life after death and about good and evil, and about the consequences for human beings of what we believe and how we behave.
I refer to this world/universe as “mundane” and/or “empirical.” When Roger Williams was a young clergyman in England, his most powerful influences were Edward Coke and Francis Bacon. Coke is generally considered one of the greatest lawyers in English history and Bacon one of the greatest developers of the scientific method. According to John Barry, Bacon did not care for the word “empiricist,” but he clearly believed in observation and experimentation as a way of gathering knowledge.
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2/7 I go by what I see people do. People who start businesses fail or succeed not because they pray, but because they use skill and knowledge well or poorly. Many years ago, my wife and I started a business and it failed. Not because we didn’t pray, but because we were young and inexperienced and made stupid mistakes. Bill Gates started a business that succeeded astonishingly because he was smart and teamed with smart people
If your house is on fire, you call the fire department, which uses empirical methods to extinguish the fire. If a person attacks you with a weapon you fight back or call the police. If you have a dangerous vehicle accident, you or someone call the police/EMTs who extend aid by empirical methods. If you have a heart attack, you call an EMT who uses empirical methods to try and keep you alive. You may pray in such situations, and it may help you psychologically, but for the most part, I fail to see what the purpose of prayer is in this mundane world.
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3/7 I couldn’t find the exact quotes quickly, but someone took issue with my comments about Christian conflicts in history, such as the wars and intersect killings during Roger William’s time.
I know you have difficulty with parables (unless you preacher delivers them or they come from the Bible), but try and stay with me here. Imagine two people – call them Smith and Jones – who are considering marriage between Smith’s son and Jones’ daughter. Both come from American families who can trace their roots back several generations. They are evaluating each others’ family trees.
Smith: One of my ancestors was a terrific doctor. Another was a fine lawyer who became a distinguished judge. Another was a dedicated nurse. Yet another was a mother who raised 9 fine children.
Jones: “My ancestors were kind of a mixed lot. One was a famous bank robber. Another owned a plantation with many slaves. On the other hand, one was a very honest, hard working farmer. He never made much money, but he was much admired by people who knew him. And one of my ancestors was a wonderful engineer who built many fine projects.”
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4/7 Some Christians have argued to me the wonderful good deeds of charity, positive accomplishment, that Christians have done. Some Christians have pointed out the misdeeds of some Muslims, and the terrible crimes of Communists (Stalin, Mao, etc.)
Now I don’t know that I’ve known very many actual out and out Communists in my lifetime, but I’ve certainly encountered very far left people, including some who defended Castro (and his allies, such as Chavez in Venezuela). If someone argues for some leftist solution to the world’ political challenges and problems, without acknowledging how badly wrong these approaches have gone, my interest and receptivity to their arguments is very low.
I am not an expert on Scandinavian social-welfare states. I don’t regard them as “utopias.” However, they are decent countries, and though they have philosophical roots in leftist ideology, they are not tyrannies and they do not cover up the shameful episodes in leftist history. Whether you like them or not, they don’t disqualify themselves by saying, “We just won’t talk about … ” (Pick your leftist poison from history.)
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5/7 Throughout the history of Christendom (from the time we have fairly reliable records) there are many examples of wonderful behavior and there are many examples of dreadful behavior. As it’s on my mind at the moment, Roger Williams (in both his actions and his arguments) certainly falls into the wonderful (by my standards) category. He didn’t hide from or try and “airbrush” the crimes of his time in which so many Christians participated.
“The Christianity is true argument” strikes me as having no sensible reason for regarding as true to me. You arguments simple repeat the same points over and over. I believe you believe there is something we can’t detect by empirical means. A few people try to claim there is empirical evidence behind religious claims. I find them not convincing and impressive.
If you argue some variation of the “Christians are good,” and “competitors to Christians” (such as other religions (Muslim, Hindu, etc.) or other political/philosophical groups (Communists, secular humanists, liberals, social welfare states such as Scandinavia) etc., you do yourself very few favors by pretending you don’t have dreadful deeds done by Christians.
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6/7 In my parable, Smith might be more willing to accept his son marrying into Jones’s family because Jones is honest about his mixed ancestral heritage. On the other hand, if Jones discovers that Smith is hiding or ignoring some dirty laundry in the Smith family history, he has plenty of reason for being dubious about having his daughter marry into the Smith family.
As far as I can see, Christianity has improved a great deal since Roger William’s time. I know it irritates you when I mention it. But it’s part of the story, and the more you wriggle and deny it, or attack me for mentioning it, the more defensive and untrustworthy you come across to me. I know (and have known) Christians who are not so defensive.
As I’ve mentioned the world is full of believers of various sorts, and full of people who do not find religious belief convincing. Until Jesus returns and straightens it all out [2,000 years and counting] we all have to share an increasingly fragile and dangerous world.
I don’t particularly trust religious believers, but I share the world with them and try to work constructively with them, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, (etc., etc., etc.). I find it easier to do with the ones who are honest, straightforward, and reasonably tolerant. My neighbors know that I do not believe as they do, but we have enough in common to (so far) get along.
I find it much more difficult with people who deny what seems most likely factually true (e.g., evolution) and who do not pick on or insult harmless groups for silly reasons (homosexuals). I’ve tried to suggest a constructive solution to a (relatively minor, yet still quite vexing) problem: homosexual marriage. Privatize it. Any religious group would be able to marry or refuse to marry anyone as their religious beliefs dictate. Laws are made by society to regulate society for civil functioning.
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7/7 Roger Williams is not easy to read today. One of his strongest beliefs was that there should be a “Wall of Separation” between civil order (managed by civil laws) and religious belief (dependent on individual conscience and belief).
Here’s a quote (as I say, not that easy to read) where he talks about this
“First the faithful labors of many Witnesses of Jesus Christ, extant to the world, abundantly proving, that the Church of the Jews under the Old Testament in the type, and the Church of the Christians under the New Testament in the Antitype, were both separate from the world; and that when they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of Separation between the Garden of the Church and the Wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the Candlestick, and made his Garden a Wilderness, as at this day. And that therefore if he will ever please to restore his Garden and Paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world, and that all that shall be saved out of the world are to be transplanted out of the Wilderness of the world, and added unto His Church or Garden.”
In today’s world, the argument for privatizing marriage I think falls into what Rogers meant.
The following link explores the issue in the context of American history in a little plainer language: http://www.wallofseparation.us/the-origins-of-wall-of-separation/
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For anyone who is up late, Obama is on Letterman. It is not intentional that I know that. My husband left the television on after he left the room, and I need to go turn it off. I have found new motivation!
Okay! The television is off. I didn’t want to have nightmares this evening.
6 Arrows asked about a favorite play. I really enjoyed The Foreigner. My husband and I originally saw it at the Alliance Theater which is in downtown Atlanta. Many years later he found out it was playing in Franklin, NC so we went up there to see it and spent the night. It was still a really special play. At one point we had season tickets to the Alliance. I loved seeing Dicken’s Christmas Carol. We also have a nearby college, Ogelthorpe, which has the Shakespeare Theater. We have seen a number of those which are always good.
As for the symphony, I am only familiar with the ASO (Atlanta Symphony Orchestra) and they are very good. We had season tickets for several years. My husband’s family did that when he was young so that was a family thing for us to do, too. It was helpful for our son to attend since he was in a band in which he played clarinet.
We have also had membership in the High Museum of Art. I really enjoyed the presentation of works by Norman Rockwell, Van Gogh, and Andrew Wyeth. Also, we saw works by an American Impressionist that I really loved. I had never known of him before. I found a website with some of his works and I will see if it will post here. His name is John Henry Twachtman. It will only do a link for anyone who is interested.
http://www.phillipscollection.org/research/american_art/artwork/Twachtman-Winter.htm
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If you, like me, have some trouble appreciating art, go to the Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa, OK. Remingtons and Reynolds- Cowboy and Indian paintings and bronzes.
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Random, the Constitution says nothing of a wall of separation between church and state. It merely prohibits the establishment of religion by any one church. The founders for the most part understood that a democratic republic could best be sustained by religious people interested in civil law that uphols moral principles including in the fields of sexual and marriage morality.
Modern secularists in fact have become a powerful quasi religious faction interested in establishing secularism as a state religion. They wish to exclude religious people from serious involvement in state affairs. Look at how viciously in California the homosexual secularists dealt with those who favored a constitutional proposition that marriage is between a man and a woman.
You and your atheistic secular friends are enamored of the Manichaean Roger Williams who in a simple-minded manner viewed the church as pure and the world including the state as evil. Most people in New England at the time viewed Williams and his followers as naive ideologues, just as most Christians in our time so regard extreme secularists.
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Sails, I am surprised that secularism is on the way to becoming a “state religion.” We don’t get around to that until next year. (sarcasm) Anyway, Christians do not seem to function best unless they feel like a persecuted minority. Perhaps you are adopting the proper attitude as a role model? It’s called “martyrdom.” Sometimes it’s called “Being a drama queen.”
Rogert Williams was a Manichaean? I’ve got an appointment. We’ll have to discuss this some more.
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