Good morning!
This is the Daily thread, talk about whatever’s on your mind.
Quote of the Day
“Let the wife make the husband glad to come home, and let him make her sorry to see him leave.”
Martin Luther
Wandering Views
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Wandering Views 
Morning all,
I have a QOD — with all the happenings in the ME, I see folks quoting from Revelation and it got me to wondering — what do folks here think of dispensationalism?
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With all I hear about happening in the Middle East how come I can’t find any news about it. I saw a blurb on FB yesterday from a friend when I was having lunch. I hopped on the internet and started looking for news and couldn’t find any and this morning the top article was that Catherine of Cambridge was sunbathing topless in the south of France.
Will someone here please tell me what is going on so that I can get dressed and get to work on time but not be completely oblivious to the goings on in the world?
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It’s Friday. You know what that means?
I’m not going to the Y today:
Chas is still tired.
Chas has to cut grass as soon as it dries.
I will go back and read the comics that PeterL posted last night.
Todays is Lions
Then I have to pick up mail the Postal Svc is holding for us.
That means there are several bills to pay.
I’m thankful that I’m not driving home from Va. Beach. It’s 925mi. round trip. Or 462 one way.
CB, Your question is an important one. But I will have to deal with it later.
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Kim, it’s on FoxNews. The rest of the MSM is talking about Romney shooting without aiming. Their problem is he’s aiming at them.
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Kim
It’s also on CNN and even MSNBC. The basics — Arab street still pretty unhappy protests continue in Cairo, Yemen. Looks like the non-Arab street is also becoming riled with protesters in Bangladesh.
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OK I have been there and read what I could in a limited time.
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the mother of a friend of mine posted this on FB. I think it is priceless.
Checking out at the store, the young cashier suggested to the older woman, that she should bring her own grocery bags because plastic bags weren’t good for the environment.
The woman apologized and explained, “We didn’t have this green thing back in my earlier days.”
The young clerk responded, “That’s our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment f
or future generations.”
She was right — our generation didn’t have the green thing in its day.
Back then, we returned milk bottles, soda bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over. So they really were truely recycled.
But we didn’t have the green thing back in our day.
Grocery stores bagged our groceries in brown paper bags, that we reused for numerous things, most memorable besides household garbage bags, was the use of brown paper bags as book covers for our schoolbooks. This was to ensure that public property, (the books provided for our use by the school) was not defaced by our scribblings. Then we were able to personalize our books on the brown paper bags.
But too bad we didn’t do the green thing back then.
We walked up stairs, because we didn’t have an escalator in every store and office building. We walked to the grocery store and didn’t climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time we had to go two blocks.
But she was right. We didn’t have the green thing in our day.
Back then, we washed the baby’s diapers because we didn’t have the throwaway kind. We dried clothes on a line, not in an energy-gobbling machine burning up 220 volts — wind and solar power really did dry our clothes back in our early days. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.
But that young lady is right; we didn’t have the green thing back in our day.
Back then, we had one TV, or radio, in the house — not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief (remember them?), not a screen the size of the state of Montana. In the kitchen, we blended and stirred by hand because we didn’t have electric machines to do everything for us. When we packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, we used wadded up old newspapers to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap. Back then, we didn’t fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. We used a push mower that ran on human power. We exercised by working so we didn’t need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity.
But she’s right; we didn’t have the green thing back then.
We drank from a fountain when we were thirsty instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time we had a drink of water. We refilled writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and we replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull.
But we didn’t have the green thing back then.
Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their bikes to school or walked instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service. We had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And we didn’t need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 23,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest burger joint.
But isn’t it sad the current generation laments how wasteful we old folks were just because we didn’t have the green thing back then?
Please forward this on to another selfish old person who needs a lesson in conservation from a smart@#$ young person.
We don’t like being old in the first place, so it doesn’t take much to piss us off.
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CB,
I became a Christian at a church that taught dispensationalism, so for years I accepted it as the right way to view things. As I got to know the Bible better, however, I found that I could not see how that view came out of Scripture, rather it seemed to be imposed on Scripture.
When I married a Presbyterian, someone from the fundamentalist Baptist church I was attending warned me about being led astray by covenant theology. I had heard of covenant theology for years as the (erroneous) counterpart to dispensationalism, but I had no clear idea what it was.
I still don’t. My husband had no idea what I meant by the term, and even after seminary he’s not sure what people like my friend from the Baptist church meant. But I was relieved to find that there were lots of people who have a high view of Scripture that don’t believe in dispensationalism.
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My experience is pretty much exactly like Pauline’s.
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Great question, CB. As a Southern Baptist, all of my pastors have been dispensationalists. Like Pauline, I increasingly found dispensationalism difficult to square with the Bible. I also am very skeptical of theologies developed within the last 200 years. Thirty years ago I was a member of a church whose resident theologian was the best Bible scholar I have ever known. He obtained his M. Div. at Dallas Theological Seminary (the heart of dispensationalism), but after intense study, rejected that theology and wrote his PhD dissertation explaning his rationale. I am not dogmatic on eschatology, but believe dispensationalism to likely be wrong.
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Good morning all,
QoD, yep I agree with Pauline and Linda and Chas; I was first taught dispensationalism as a new Christian, but had a hard time squaring it when I tead the Bible.
Kim, I read that online too and laughed. It is interesting how much we are going back when it comes to being green. I had a young mother recently tell me she wrapped her kids sandwiches in wax paper instead of a baggy because it is better for the environment. I did not take the time to tell her that before the baggy that was standard practice.
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AJ,
How come I keep getting a message that; “Internet Explorer blocked this website from displaying content with security certificate errors”?
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I am not a complete dispensationalist, but like Charles Spurgeon, I do believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ when he returns to the earth. The rapture as some believe will occur before the Great Tribulation. There is no definitive proof that this happens. There are only hints at it. My problem is with Amillinialism. Because the context of Revelation is a literal 1000 years, I find that Amillinialism tends to spiritualize this away from the pages of Scripture. The early church fathers, both Ireaneus and Justin Martyr believed in a literal 1000 year reign as well. Ireaneus as disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John.
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CB, I was raised Southern Baptist and only heard dispensationalism until I started working for Catholics. One Sunday evening, when I was about 11 or 12, the preacher had just finished a sermon on the rapture and about how cars, suddenly without drivers, would crash. As everyone was standing outside after the service socializing, two cars slammed into each other right in front of the church. I thought, “This is it. Oh, great! I’m still here.” What a relief to find out it was just very loud fender bender. (no one was hurt) I was so good for the next few months even my very strict grandmother noticed. I eventually decided that since Jesus said no one can know the time or place then trying to predict it is kind of counterproductive. I haven’t rejected dispensationalism, I just don’t see how it matters to my daily walk.
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MiM,
I don’t know. I’ve gotten it as well. Not just here either, on many sites recently. I’ve used McAfee to scan the site, and it says everythings good. In fact, were green, and McAfee has approved us as a safe site.
Anybody else know anything about this warning?
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I’ve also asked McAfee to check it again, and I’ll let you know what they tell me when the have.
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Ricky Weaver,
So what about theologies developed within the last 500 years? 😉 And if you go back to 500 B.C. how old is the doctrine of the Trinity now? “Old as the Bible” you say? Well, yes. 😉
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cbadwjh (Adios) – My husband went to school with wax paper-wrapped sandwiches, & didn’t like it, as the sandwiches became dry. Now for work, he reuses our baggies again & again & again.
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Good morning everyone. I’ve had a similar experience as a number of you, Dispensationalism as an young Christian but being led by scripture in a different direction.
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Mim,
OK, here’s something that may help. It appears I was running an outdated version of Java. I’ve now updated it. It says that some security certificates become outdated, so you need to update to the newer version with the security upgrades. That is supposed to fix it. You may need to update yours as well. Mine told me yesterday an upgrade was ready for download, but I didn’t because it takes a bit and I’m impatient. But it’s done, but check your version and upgrade if needed. That should take care of it. I hope.
Anyone that knows more about this can chime in. I’d appreciate it.
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Photoguy. I am probably the exception to that. Amillinialism was taught to me when I was a Catholic. When the Lord called me to himself, I became a student of scripture. I consider myself a Biblicist. I take the scriptures literally unless the context of scripture is metaphorical. I.E. If the context indicates a literal 1000 years, then it has to be a literal 1000 years.
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Drivesguy: I have a question for you that has always bothered me about the concept of the 1000-year reign. Will children be born during that time? If so, will they be sinless? If so, that doesn’t seem to square with the Bible (“all have sinned”) and if not, then we’re right back where we started, right?
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Drivesguy, how do you define dispensationalism? I don’t have a big problem with the 1000 year reign. I am not an Amillinailist. I was taught the JN Darby form and much of that I did not find scripturally held water.
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Good question, Matt. I consider the best of the Reformation to be a rediscovery of an older, orthodox theology. One of the real negatives of the American Revolution is that it opened the door to all sorts of cults and heresies of which Mormonism is only the most prominent.
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Dispensationalism in its purest form teaches that God deals with men through certain dispensations of time or ages. This is problematic especially when it comes to the teaching on the age of Grace or church age. The Bible teaches common grace to all men both righteous and unrighteous. (Example when Jesus says that God causes the rain to fall upon both the righteous and unrighteous) or if you will the elect and those destined for eternal judgement. Revelation 20:2 says that Satan will be bound for a thousand years. Revelation 20:3 says that after the thousand years Satan would be released for a short period of time. Revelation 20:4 says that those beheaded for their testimony would be resurrected to reign for a thousand years with Christ. Revelation 20:6 also says that those who are part of this resurrection will reign with him a thousand years.
The context clears says that it will be a literal 1000 years. To spiritualize this any other way, in my humble opinion, is to take away from the meaning of the text.
Linda, In answer to your question, all men are conceived in Sin and unless God effectually calls those men to repentance and faith, they will eventually give into their sin nature and commit cosmic treason against the King of Glory. Whether children are born during the 1000 year reign, one could assume that based upon Revelation 20:8.
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My experience was the opposite: I grew up in an amillennial congregation. Prophetic passages were confusing and hard, so generally they were ignored, with the exception of explaining that the OT was “types and shadows”.
In that way of thinking, basically explaining the “hard” prophecies becomes easy: Just say, “Jesus. The church. Whatever.” Like this: Israel to be gathered back to its land from around the world, for the time when the lion will lay with the lamb and the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord? “Jesus. The church. Whatever.” The descendants of Israel will not be cast off for all that they have done (unless the heavens can be measured and the foundations of the earth be searched out)? “Jesus. The church. Whatever.” Israel to be one nation under one king in the land given to Jacob, with an everlasting covenant? “Jesus. The church. Whatever.”
Of course it was never stated that way; it was just generally ignored and not well thought out. I was not introduced to preterism either while growing up. So I decided amillennialism didn’t make sense and became a premillennialist and a futurist. Along the way I came across preterism, and rejected it. I also felt that Israel had a future according to the OT prophecies as well as Romans 11, though I wasn’t sure for awhile if that meant I was “dispensationalist” or not. I’m a sort of moderate, progressive dispensationalist.
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Dispensationalism
Briefly: The theory of dispensationalism began with the writings of John Darby in the early 19th century. It was made popular by C.I. Scofield and his comments in the Scofield Bible. Many believe his notes are part of scripture. Probably not so much in a more educated society.
It basically assumes that the letters to the Seven Churches in Revelation 2 are seven different dispensations of the church. I see this primarily as a way to get to the seventh church, Laodicea. Laodicea is the “lukewarm” church which Christ will spew out of his mouth. That’s us. Neither hot nor cold. And it fits.
However, describing the previous dispensations don’t really fit.
My primary disagreement with dispensationalism is a belief in the imminent return of Christ. “We might all be raptured before this class is over.”
The Bible doesn’t support this:
Jesus, in talking to his disciples in Matt. 24, said, v. 29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give its light….(v30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn…..(31) and he shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Paul, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”
Much has been written on this. I recommend to you, The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal. I also recommend a book JoeB recommended to me: God’s War on Terror by Walid Shoebat. He takes an entirely different view of the subject. And it makes sense in view of world events.
Eschatological theories didn’t make much difference in past years. It seems that they are becoming more important today.
In any case, the important lesson of scripture is Matthew 25. There are three parables which say the same thing: WATCH. Or as the scouts say, “Be Prepared”.
The Bible teaches in many places that there will be a millenial reign.
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The pastor of my church in Va never discussed eschatology. The church here in Hendersonville is pre-trib rapture. I believe in a mid treb, or pre-wrath rapture. I don’t quibble over the difference between these two. You all realize that I have a big thing about the battle in Zechariah 12. It does not seem connected with Armageddon nor any other prophesied battle that I can identify.
What I do know is that presently, the governors of Judah are like a blowtorch in a woodpile in the Middle East. 12:6.
I see Israel as a bone in the throat of all Islam. They are determined to do something about it. I believe that in the end, there will still be an Israel
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Covenant theology is what our church holds to. I’m not dogmatic about eschatology, but I’m most definitely not a dispensationalist.
But like many here, that’s all I was exposed to as a new Christian as it had/has become so dominant in the popular Christian culture. All the pop Christian novels, after all, were based on it, right? 😉
As Ricky points out, dispensationalism is a very recent phenomenon within the church — and, in my view, just requires an awful lot of biblical twists and turns to make it all hold water.
Kim, loved the “green” post. I’d forgotten about the brown paper book covers. By the time I was in junior high they’d come out with plastic ones which we thought were very hot. 😉
I’m also gravitating back to glass bottles when I can for things like milk. I use coconut oil in my dogs’ food and my vet told me “Be sure to get it in the glass jar.” The plastics, he believes, do leech out over time so that we’re ingesting who knows what.
Anyone here familiar with spelt bread? I was chatting with my doctor yesterday (love being able to have kept my same primary physician for, gosh, almost 30 years now??) and he’d suggested it as a good form of grain.
I’d lost weight since I’d last checked in with him (but need to lose more), so we were talking about the whole weight loss thing, which is how spelt came up.
He also recommended a book by Taubes (Good Calories, Bad Calories) which Tammy was familiar with, saying it’s making the rounds in the medical community of late as physicians and scientists try to crack the tough nut of the obesity problem in the west.
The answers haven’t always been what we’ve thought they were for all these years, my doctor said.
Anyway, I’m starting the book now (or rather the author’s later abridged “layman’s” version of it recommended by Tammy). And I bought some spelt English muffins. I have a feeling they’ll be a little card-board-y. But what the heck. I’ll try anything once.
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“The early church fathers, both Ireaneus and Justin Martyr believed in a literal 1000 year reign as well. Ireaneus as disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John.”
You might reconsider using that as support for your argument, drivesguy. Irenaeus also believed that Jesus was almost 50 years old when He was crucified. I discovered that by reading Irenaeus when a Roman Catholic friend was trying to convince me that the early church fathers all held Roman Catholic beliefs and that they must’ve known what they were talking about because they were so close to the apostles.
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kBells said,
“I was so good for the next few months even my very strict grandmother noticed. I eventually decided that since Jesus said no one can know the time or place then trying to predict it is kind of counterproductive.”
Did your grandmother notice the difference in your behavior when you came to that decision?
😉
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I believe that virtually all of the various millennial views have had respected, orthodox supporters through the ages — church fathers, theologians and ministers.
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Oh Chas, I keep forgetting to mention — the local Lions club in our area is gearing up for its 90th anniversary celebration later this month. 🙂
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Drivesguy, I don’t think you answered my question about children born during the millenium. Are they born perfect (sinless) or not?
Also, in context, I find it very VERY difficult to believe that the 1000 years is “clearly literal.”
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AJ,
I uninstalled all Java, rebooted, then downloaded and installed the very latest Java. It should be fine now, yes? But I’m still getting blocked website messages… And sorry, no, I don’t know about security certificate errors. Maybe Pauline could tell us…
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More thoughts on dispensationalism:
Classical dispensationalists went too far with some of their ideas. Some divided the church and Israel so far that they acted like Israel’s eternity is way over there, and the Church’s is right over here, and never shall they mix. That’s not how I think.
There are ideas that dispensationalists have been criticized for, which are not essential to dispensationalism. Some of these ideas are myths; some have been abandoned; others are still held by some or most dispensationalists, but they are not essential to dispensational theology. These include the following:
* Dispensationalism teaches two ways of salvation (myth)
* Eternal dualism of heavenly and earthly peoples, with God pursuing two different purposes (abandoned)
* There are two New Covenants, one for Israel and one for the Church (abandoned)
* The New Covenant applies only to Israel (mostly abandoned)
* Dispensationalism is about the seven dispensations (some dispensationalists believe in 7, others believe in 8, others in as few as 3. The number is not important, nor can you define “dispensationalism” by defining a dispensation).
* Distinction between the terms “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of God” (abandoned)
* Relegating the Sermon on the Mount to the future millennial kingdom, as if it does not apply to Christians today (mostly abandoned)
* The postponed kingdom theory, involving the offer to Israel of an earthly kingdom at Christ’s first coming, which was then postponed because of Israel’s rejection of Christ (some have abandoned this)
* The Church as a parenthesis in salvation history (partly abandoned)
* Pre-trib rapture of the church (most dispensationalists hold to this, but some do not)
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Like Chas, I lean towards the pre-wrath (mid-trib) rapture theory.
As for the 1000 year reign of Christ, I believe it could mean a literal 1000 years or perhaps means “a very long time”. From what I’ve read & heard, the use of numbers in the Bible is often symbolic. For instance, 10 is often used to mean “a complete number”.
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Karen, ESPECIALLY in Revelations.
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Linda. If the context is not a literal 1000 years, then what is it? The apostles did believe in a restoration of the Kingdom of Israel. They even questioned the Lord about it in Acts 1:6. The Lord gently explained to them that it was not for them to know the time when the Kingdom would be restored, but the Father would reveal it in time:
Acts 1:6-7
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
If you compare this to: Revelation 20, Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Even in Chapter Sixteen of the Didiche we read these words: And then the signs of truth shall be revealed. First, a sign spread out in heaven; then a sign of the sound of a trumpet; and third, the resurrection of the dead, but not all of the dead. But as it was said, “the Lord shall come and all His Holy Ones with Him.”Then the world shall see the Lord coming in the clouds of heaven.”
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So I am pretty well convinced that the text is pretty well self-explanatory and means a literal Thousand Years. The thousand year reign is a fulfillment of the promised restoration of the Kingdom of Israel. I do believe that there is a distinct difference between the “kingdom of Israel spoken of by the Apostles in Acts chapter 1 and what Jesus testified before Pilate when he spoke of his kingdom being not of this world. The context clearly says that that particular kingdom is indeed spiritual in nature. I believe that all true believers are members of the spiritual kingdom that Jesus spoke of when he stood before Pilate. The millennial kingdom spoken of in Revelation 20 is a literal earthly kingdom that fulfills both the Old and New Testament prophecies concerning the kingdom of Israel.
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Whoa! I go away for a minute and when I come back, it seems as if a thousand years have passed.
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You crack me up Random.
😆
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You may have been born under a bad sign, Drivesguy. Oops, that’s probably a different belief system. (At one time, some Christians believed in astrology, I think, but I doubt any do currently.)
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Trolls 1 of 3.
I reread all the troll comments from Wednesday. The WV community seems to have lost interest by Thursday. Because I am what I am [probably a scorpion hitching a ride across a creek on a frog], I will make some comments.
There were about 8 comments on Weds. Several were harmless and silly about troll dolls. A couple people considered me a troll, at least some of the time. A couple people do not regard me as such.
A real life troll
The topic reminds me of a “real” troll I encountered years ago. In the 1960s, during Lyndon Johnson’s “War on Poverty,” I got a summer job supervising and training teenagers in Seattle who got summer jobs paid for by the federal government. Most of the students were black. Some were intelligent, kind, and constructive. Some were thugs and gang members.
One of the latter group was a nasty fellow named John. He usually had two or three girl friends (usually white). His specialty was causing other people to start fights while he lurked in a corner and smirked. Sometimes he got a couple of girl friends to fight with each other. Sometimes he drew in other boys to get involved. He was quite skillful at not being the apparent cause of the fights, but it was soon quite obvious to me that he was usually at the root of the situation. I do remember calling the police once, in the hope of putting a little fear into him. He just thought the whole situation was hugely funny. As I was quite young and inexperienced, I had trouble dealing with the John’s shenanigans. John was obviously a “pro” troll troublemaker with lots of experience.
At the end of the summer I got my first “real” job as a high school teacher, at a very diverse and racially mixed school in the South End of Seattle called Rainier Beach. I was fairly terrified.
The day before school started, I arrived for meetings and preparation. I received my class lists. At the top of first period’s class was John’s name. I looked at it – it was like getting a notice after escaping from Hell that Satan was going to drop in on you again.
I quickly talked to the Vice Principal (whose name was Ed Scott). In most public schools the Vice Principal is the “top cop,” assigned the dreadful job of maintaining order among childish sociopaths. To my immense good fortune, Ed proved to be a genius at the job. He was so good at it, the school district avoided promoting him to principal for years. The VP job is much more difficult than the Principal job.
Anyway, I quickly explained the situation to Ed. He shrugged with the cool of an experienced cop evaluating the 1,000th felon he has to arrest in the course of a long career. He shrugged and said, “Don’t worry about it. By tomorrow morning he will be history. At least he won’t be in your class.” Perhaps with a little background checking they discovered John was wanted for dealing drugs or something. Anyway, I never saw him or heard anything about him again.
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Trolls 2 of 3.
In my experience, the trick with any group is to have enough variety and contrast to provide interest and entertainment, but not so much as to stir up serious conflict and trouble. In my case, the participation of a hard-core atheist in a religious group pushes the group’s comfort zone to the limit.
Christians like to bring non believers into the fold. Tammy posted:
I don’t know. Having our own personal troll gives the site a little bit of spice. And, I’m still holding out for his eventual conversion.
So she is perhaps a little amused by me, and perhaps a little hopeful that I will become a Christian.
Linda Shaffer, on the other hand, posted:
For those of you who are new to Random, he is our version of a troll. We’ve been through all of this before (I suspect he saved all this foolishness from the last time he posted it). All he’s trying to do is, as my hubby would say, “get under our goat.” He doesn’t want real discourse and he won’t answer your questions. I just skip his posts.
Linda has communicated with me for a long time, and has become – perhaps justifiably – weary of me, and perhaps convinced that I am never going to become a Christian. (Which I consider probable.)
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Trolls 3 of 3.
In my mind, the issue boils down to The world is full of people with different religious, political, and other beliefs. Even though they differ on issues such as “Is there a God?” they still have to find some way to live together. The first step is to communicate. The second step is to find possible methods of compromise, and rules for preventing dangerous conflicts such as wars and violence. Thanks to people such as Roger Williams and Thomas Jefferson, America has been rather more successful than many other parts of the world, but the problem never goes away completely. Not everyone is going to become an atheist. Not everyone is going to become a believer..
I suspect this web site contains at least two groups. One group mostly wants to be around people with similar values (Protestant Christian belief). They don’t want (for various reasons) to hear repeated criticism, attempted refutations of Christianity, and so on. They either ignore me completely or occasionally politely complain, as does Linda. And some others reactions.
I suspect the troll issue is dead, at least for now. AJ, as the web master, seems to have decided he can tolerate me, I may hang around and continue to post, or I may get bored and go bother someone else, or I may stop because I am senile, or I may just croak because I am getting old. At the moment, I feel like continuing, and my comments seem to stir up some interesting discussion for some. Ree, for example (and I don’t mean to slight anyone else) often has interesting responses and questions in regard to my comments. I still plan to respond to a dialog Ree and I are having about values of right and wrong growing out of my Cyberia series.
Speaking of which . . .
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5 of 7
Continuing series about an imaginary country (not proposed as perfect or a utopia) where children are raised without hearing about God.
Would the children invent God?
You probably see where I am going with this. My name is not George, and I am not a monkey (though I am a primate), but I am very curious. If children were raised in a society without any mention of “God,” with modern science and technology, with reasonable ethical rules and guidelines, with careful respect for empirical knowledge (as best as we understand it), would they eventually inventor develop the concept of “God?” if no adult presented this idea to them?
I suspect they would.
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Random, I may not agree with you, but I do appreciate your humor. It is probably because we are both near the same age. Benjamin Franklin was a close personal friend of George Whitefield, even though Franklin never converted. The Long and short of it is this Random, people can be friends and graciously disagree with each other. I don’t try to beat people of the head with a 10 lb King James Bible. That is being harsh to people. I will not go down that road. I may explain why I believe what I believe, but I am not going to shove the scriptures down the throat of someone or try to emotionally persuade someone to convert. It is not my job to change someone’s heart. It is my job to tell them the story. If God calls them, I have gained a brother or sister. If not, I can still pray for them. God may yet call them when someone else tells them the story.
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Donna, 90 years is a long time for a Lions Club. The Lions were officially formed in 1917 by Melvin Jones in Chicago. Some separate clubs date from 1916, but the organization was officially 1917.
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Random, I haven’t read all of your posts, but you asked if children would invent God. “Invent” is your word. I just direct you to the fact that every culture in all the world has a concept of some sort of supreme being.
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Drivesguy, interesting quote from the Didache there.
Here’s one from the Apocalypse of Peter, suggesting a future for Israel and hinting at a futurist interpretation of the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation:
And ye, take ye the likeness thereof (learn a parable) from the fig-tree: so soon as the shoot thereof is come forth and the twigs grown, the end of the world shall come.
And I, Peter, answered and said unto him: Interpret unto me concerning the fig-tree, whereby we shall perceive it; for throughout all its days doth the fig-tree send forth shoots, and every year it bringeth forth its fruit for its master. What then meaneth the parable of the fig-tree? We know it not.
And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel? … Verily I say unto thee, when the twigs thereof have sprouted forth in the last days, then shall feigned Christs come and awake expectation saying: I am the Christ, that am now come into the world. And when they (Israel) shall perceive the wickedness of their deeds they shall turn away after them and deny him [whom our fathers did praise], even the first Christ whom they crucified and therein sinned a great sin … Then shall the twigs of the fig-tree, that is, the house of Israel, shoot forth: many shall become martyrs at his hand. Enoch and Elias shall be sent to teach them that this is the deceiver which must come into the world and do signs and wonders to deceive. And therefore shall they that die by his hand be martyrs, and shall be reckoned among the good and righteous martyrs who have pleased God in their life.
A lot of early commentators thought that the two witnesses in Revelation 11 will be Enoch and Elijah. Commentators today are more likely to think that they will be Moses and Elijah. I think they will probably just be two end-time believers chosen by God for this special purpose, but obviously that’s just speculation and it doesn’t matter.
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Matt, I tend to believe that the two witnesses are just witnesses chosen by God. I have read where some Messianic Jews tend to believe that they are Moses and Elijah. I choose not to read into the text something that is not there. It is interesting to note that the Greek word for witness is martoos. We get the word martyr from it. The two witnesses end up being martyred for their testimony for the Savior.
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Another interesting quote, this one from Hippolytus’s commentary on the book of Daniel:
50.1. This one will kill the two witnesses and precursors of Christ who herald his glorious advent from heaven, as he says through the prophet, “And I will give power to my two witnesses and they shall prophesy one thousand two hundred
sixty days wearing sack cloth.”
50.2. Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!”
Again, futurist interpretation of Revelation, plus apparently an expectation for the Seventieth Week of Daniel to be fulfilled in the future.
Obviously Scripture is the authority, not the early church writers, but nevertheless it’s interesting to read some of their interpretations.
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Re End times: “No man knows the hour or the day, only the Father in heaven.” That is all I need to know. I heard a guy say he was “pan-millennial”- it will all pan out in the end. I agree. God knows, He decides, so why should we get in a kerfuffle over it? Whole churches have split over when the “rapture” would take place. When we moved to Iowa, there was a church we thought we would visit until we noticed they had on their sign “pre-tribulation”. We went somewhere else. For a church to demand one believes a certain end-times system to be a member is borderline heresy in my view. I really believe Satan is behind all the confusion, driving a wedge between true believers in order to divide the church.
Believe what you will about the return of Jesus and the last days; just don’t make it a requirement for salvation. God doesn’t.
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I read a lot of different Christian commentators. But I usually only do that as a last resort. I usually like to compare scripture with scripture 1st. To me the Bible is its own best commentator.
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Chas: Random, I haven’t read all of your posts, but you asked if children would invent God. “Invent” is your word. I just direct you to the fact that every culture in all the world has a concept of some sort of supreme being.
Chas, thank you for reading at least one of my posts. I am not sure “invent” is the correct word to use. I agree that every culture in the world has a concept of some sort of supreme being. I have often wondered what this represents.
Does it mean that:
1) Developing (inventing, evolving, creating) concept of a supreme being is something that human beings do? (Perhaps
2) A supreme being exists, but human beings only have a dim understanding of Him/Her/It?
3) A supreme being exists, and one group (religious belief, culture, sect) has a clear understanding of His nature, and all the other groups with different ideas are (mistaken, misled by an evil being)?
As I wrote the above questions, about twenty other questions popped into my ADD/HD mind. However, I suspect if I wrote even one more word, you would decide not to ever read another post of mine again.
I notice that there are a number of posts today on topics such as dispensationalism , Revelation, and so on. I suspect you find these discussions more more interesting, informative, and convincing than anything I have to say and possibly quite properly so.
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Enoch and Elijah are the only two humans who never died. The two witnesses will be killed. That doesn’t prove anything, but it is an interesting fact.
Mal. 4:5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord; and he will turn the hearts………..lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Matt. 17:10 The disciples asked him, ” Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus answered them, “Elijah truly must come first and restore all things.
12 But I say that Elijah is come already ……..”
Matt. 11:14 “And if you will receive it, this is Elijah which is to come.” Notice the “which is to come”.
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Matthew 24 is the Olivet discourse in which Jests discusses his return.
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
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Linda asked: Drivesguy: I have a question for you that has always bothered me about the concept of the 1000-year reign. Will children be born during that time? If so, will they be sinless? If so, that doesn’t seem to square with the Bible (“all have sinned”) and if not, then we’re right back where we started, right?
Drivesguy didn’t say anything (that I saw), so let me stab at this:
I infer, from certain passages of scripture, the following:
There will surely be people born during the millenium, and they will live a long time.
No they won’t be sinless. However Satan & his legions will be chained and there will not be the temptation to sin.
However, man has a sinful nature and because of his nature, there will be sin.
The Bible indicates that the Ruler, sitting on David’s throne, will deal with justice to those who sin.
Searching for proof texts for all of this would take more time than I have.
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I like what Peter said; I think I’m going to convert to being pan-millenial.
Thanks, Chas, but then don’t those born with the sinful nature need to be saved?
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Just checking back in to thank folks for their answers, an enjoyable read from start to finish.
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They will need salvation Linda as do we all. As to whom the Lord will draw unto himself, we do not know. I do not know who God has chosen. That does not relieve me of my responsibility to obey the Lord and proclaim the Good News and call men to repent.
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Thanks, Drives, but it all just doesn’t make [Biblical] sense to me. Fortunately, as we’ve all agreed, it doesn’t matter. Blessings.
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I think there should be a middle ground between breaking fellowship with others over eschatology, on the one hand, and simply giving up on understanding prophecy, on the other. There is room for discussion, debate, and clear opinions – but also room for disagreement. There is quite a bit of prophecy or prophecy-related verses, after all, and they certainly weren’t included for no reason. But it is definitely true as well that God has everything in hand and it will work out in the end.
Every morning when we wake up, we are one day closer to the Lord’s return. That’s one inspirational thought we can all agree on.
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Thanks for the QoD, CB. I enjoyed reading the responses, too.
No one commented on the Quote of the Day (“Let the wife make the husband glad to come home, and let him make her sorry to see him leave.”), so I’ll just say this:
Last night my husband came home from work to everyone sleeping, and dirty dishes still sitting in the sink for no good reason.
😦
Tonight, the dishes are done, so hopefully it’ll be a much nicer homecoming for him.
🙂
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Amen Matt.
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Chas, I’m going to do a story on the local Lions anniversary next week (the celebration is a week from tomorrow/Saturday). There are some longtime members to speak with & they’re trying to get a # for the former international president who will be their speaker.
Actually, the guy who fixes my Jeep & the guy who is my insurance agent are both members of the club.
But they apparently also have some vintage photos from the early days, which should be fun. Thanks for the history about the Chicago roots. So this must be close to one of the oldest clubs ?
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It’s horribly hot out here. And there are brush fires burning near the freeway to the north of me (near the Getty Center — it’s a stretch of road I take a couple times during the year to visit friends on the other side of the Hollywood Hills).
Strangely, my neighbors are taking off for the desert tomorrow on a little get-away.
The desert?? Yikes. Go figure.
But she told me I could go to their house (which has a/c) and chill if I wanted to in their absence. 🙂
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Donna – gotta love good neighbours!
Listened to an interesting podcast today of a former pastor turned atheist talking to an apologist (?) Makes the long drive into the city go faster http://donjohnsonministries.org MP – might be something you would enjoy as well.
Also spent about an hour in the Home Depot parking lot waiting for my husband to clean out the heater/ac fan. Five baby deer mice and their momma fell out as he pulled out the heater. Uck. So in I went to buy some spray cleaner with bleach, paper towels and garbage bags. (Hubby had already gone in twice to purchase 2 different kinds of tools to open up the dash to get to the heater). The babies looked to be about 2 weeks old, but there wasn’t a lot of nesting material so hopefully I hadn’t been driving around with them for that long. 😦
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Oh, and Donna – the desert is awesome!
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I was reading tonight from the devotional book I got for my birthday. Psalm 121, verses 1 & 2 were featured. I decided to open my bible and read the whole psalm, and found it to be so pleasant to drink in at day’s end.
1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.
4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
5 The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.
6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
8 The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.
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Awe, traveling micies. 🙂
Yes, the desert is beautiful but it’s SO hot even on the coast, I can’t imagine going somewhere where it might be even hotter!
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Thank you 6 Arrows – that was my parents’ wedding scripture. 🙂
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Oh, neat, Kare!
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