109 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 11-7-17”

  6. Morning!! While there is no snow on the forest floor, there is lots of ice evidently. The plow just drove down the road with his little blue light flashing…good to know they are on top of it! ❄️
    I am not adjusting to this time change..is it because I’m getting older and set in my ways? When I am out and about I have to make certain I am home by 5 (I cannot drive at night either!) I tell my friends I have to be home before dark or else I will turn into a pumpkin!

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  7. Good morning. I am slowly adjusting to the time change, too. I can still drive to familiar places at night.

    I admit to feeling depressed about all the church upheaval. Every time I think things are settled and I start feeling hopeful again then things just seem crazy again. I did read a wonderful Bible verse this a.m. that is so applicable in considering this second chance for a merger. Philippians 2:1-4. Isn’t it great when God supplies a word just when you need it?

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  8. Chas, I was thinking of the caterpillar in relation to the photo yesterday, too. I thought of how Kim and I were pictured in our caterpillar stage and how one day we will fly away. Now someone needs to post, I’ll Fly Away!

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  9. I don’t turn into a pumpkin, NancyJ, I turn into a criminal.
    And if I’m sitting at a traffic light that night and someone rear ends me. It’s m fault.
    I just stay off the road. Elvera still has her driver’s license, but I don’t let her drive.
    Figure that.

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  10. Our church, which is Lutheran, now has a minister, who is a Baptist. He also preaches at another Lutheran church on his way to ours. He lives 90 minutes or so away. He had been a guest preacher first when our pastor of many years had to leave suddenly. It has been interesting, to say the least.

    Another pastor I know preaches at his Covenant church and a Methodist church. Lots of changes in churches and sharing, as pastor become scarce.

    While we have much in common, I do not like that important concepts of dogma are dismissed with little understanding or discussion.

    I hope all will be well in the changes at your church, Janice.

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  11. I’m kind of liking the time change — we don’t get off work until 6 anyway so lately it’s been dark by the time I get home anyway. (In the mid-summer, though, it was light until 8 p.m. or so and I did enjoy having time to water and walk the dogs when it was still semi-light outside.) But i’m now going to bed earlier (around 9) and getting up at 5:30.

    And today is my birthday, apparently. Sheesh. They aren’t nearly as much fun as they used to be. 🙂 But I received some sweet cards in the mail yesterday.

    So I’m on the countdown to the windows getting done on Thursday, I have lots of furniture moving to do before then. And i decided to ‘hire’ the Old House blog guy to advise on historically accurate color combinations I might use for the exterior of my house. I’m at such a standstill with regard to that (and am finding I change my mind every few weeks or so) that I really could benefit from some more expert advice, both on colors and on the architectural history. They work with you on mockups (using full res photos you email to them) until we find something I love. I need to send off the check for that today, they’re in NJ. Guess that’s my BD present to myself this year, but I can’t tell Real Estate Guy or he’ll flip. Likewise my friend down the street who says “just pick colors you like, don’t pay anyone to help.”

    But I still feel like this is too big a job to get “wrong.” And I hardly have what you’d call a ‘cookie cutter’ house, it’s somewhat unique and I think needs the eye of someone who has experience with these funkier old houses and the appropriate color pallets that work best on them.

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  12. My two cents on the music discussion: I have not noticed a difference in the way men and women play. I do believe personality shows itself in some instruments; perhaps all.

    The violin is an instrument that really brings out the personality of the player. Some players are harsh in their style, but they seem to tackle a lot of life with that. Others are softer and more laid-back and seem to show that in their style of playing.

    I may notice this more because the fiddle is played with a lot of improvisation. Contest playing has a requirement for a waltz, a hoedown and tune of choice. You hear players who do waltzes the best and those who do the faster tunes much better. Some are sweet and some harsh. Whatever they play is filled with their personality. The more one plays ‘by ear’ the more this may show.

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  14. Janice, that does sound like a tricky transition, especially being part of the smaller group that could wind up being somewhat “absorbed” by the larger body. I also can’t remember if you’re with a particular denomination or are an independent church?

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  15. Kathaleena, though I don’t think it is bad as my brother, not a believer, teaching Sunday school in his Lutheran church. It seems that would make it challenging to correctly answer people’s questions.

    I love the time change, either way. I like having light when I get out to do the wintertime chores. And I just do the evening chores earlier.

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  16. Thank you Kathaleena. Yes, I do like my funny little house. 🙂 It has, um, character, as they say. And I’m hoping to find exterior colors appropriate to its history and style that will make it ‘pop’ a bit and “be all it can be.”

    The holidays appear to be soon upon us. It happens so fast once you pass Halloween.

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  17. My former boss once called my house a simple “adobe” style. A city worker last year said it looked like an old-west saloon. I prefer the history blog guy’s declaration that it’s Spanish mission. But without a nice bell tower, sadly.

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  18. I cooked dinner on time last night because I looked out the window and thought, “Oh, no, I’m so late cooking dinner!”

    It was 4:45. We ate at 6. Good.

    I wrote down your birthday in my calendar, DJ, since it’s open in front of me and still blissfully EMPTY until Friday.

    Janice–you need to grieve the loss of your former church. It’s like losing a family member–the rest of the family are standing around just as shocked as you, trying to adjust to how they’re going to live without that family member and mourning over that which is lost, sighing over the whippersnappers coming up to take their place in the family and wondering how God will change hearts.

    Give yourself time to grieve the past. It usually took us about six months to start feeling like we might have landed in the correct church (I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve shifted churches due to moves and a couple times to choice–15?)

    You’re going to be stepping on each other’s toes for a time. You aren’t going to like everything. The Lord is in it, though, and will provide the grace you need. See today’s Utmost! 🙂

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  20. The subject I’m trying to avoid (finally!) will be discussed live at 1 (California time) next Monday on the Chris Fabry show. I’ll be listening this week to figure out how it goes but I think there are questions at the end–not sure on that–and could probably use some soft balls tossed . . .

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  21. I call this photo “Hi, Mom!” When a monarch butterfly landed on the flower of my common milkweed while a large caterpillar was visible on it, I didn’t get a chance to choose the angle of the shot or its background, because I was inside the house and had to take the shot through glass at an angle–a shot that would usually be hopelessly blurred, in other words, but I had to at least try it, because I knew that the butterfly wouldn’t still be there if I took time to go outside to take the shot. The fact that the caterpillar seems to be waving or at least peeking around the corner with admiration or puzzlement makes it better.

    Some species of butterflies lay a whole bunch of eggs on one plant or one leaf, but monarch usually only lay one egg per milkweed plant. It is said they avoid plants that have aphids (aphids can suck a lot of the juice out of a plant and make it less nutritious for their babies) or other milkweed pests. Well, wild milkweed is an absolute pest magnet. One other caterpillar eats it (and its mother lays lots of eggs on a single plant, so milkweed tussock moth caterpillars eat every bit of green leaf on a plant, leaving only the leaf skeletons) and multiple insects do. By the end of summer, most of these plants growing along the road look pathetic–so much has chewed them that there is hardly anything left.

    Well, I diligently removed aphids (which is a task in and of itself–oleander aphids, little yellow things, just adore milkweed, and aphids can actually be born already pregnant–they need no males to reproduce–so they reproduce extremely quickly and cover a leaf within a few days if you don’t remove them), and I caught and moved some other milkweed eaters to milkweed growing wild half a block from my house. That was for two reasons, one we were trying to prepare our house for sale (though in fact we never did get it listed by the time the milkweed was still growing) and I didn’t need chewed-up, buggy milkweed–my husband would have insisted I uproot it, and I wanted monarchs. But second I knew that the monarchs would be more likely to lay an egg on it if it was “clean” of other insects.

    The funny thing is, our married daughter used to do the gardening herself before she got distracted by a man two summers ago and married him last summer, but she was living in an apartment with her husband and not getting a chance to garden, so one day she came by to do some gardening, and she didn’t know I was keeping the milkweed on purpose, so she pulled it all up. But this milkweed was three years old (it flowers the second year and thereafter) and roots of common milkweed run deep, so it promptly regrew. But only one plant grew tall and flowered; besides it, we had four or five short plants.

    With monarchs laying one egg per plant, I should thus have had only half a dozen caterpillars in all. But monarchs can lay dozens or even hundreds of eggs over the few weeks of their adult life, and if what I saw on wild milkweed plants up and down our road is typical, it’s pretty hard to find one that isn’t already discovered by aphids, milkweed tussock moths, mlikweed bugs, or longhorn milkweed beetles. So they found pest-free plants here, and I had more than 20 in all–I might find two eggs and 15 caterpillars of all different sizes on any given count. I have no idea how many mother monarchs chose our milkweed. The same female might have come back repeatedly, or she might have sometimes laid two eggs on the same visit, or a couple dozen females came once each, or a few females came once each day, I really don’t know. But in the couple weeks it takes for a caterpillar to grow from tiny to huge, new eggs were still being laid and so we were starting all over with the tiny ones (the size difference is really mind-boggling when you see both newly hatched ones and large ones on the same plant).

    Anyway, I cannot tell if this butterfly is male or female, and I definitely cannot tell if it is the mother of that caterpillar that is waving to it–but it might very well be, since it seems more likely than otherwise that some females were repeat visitors.

    Since a female can lay up to several hundred eggs, and since in a stable population (one neither growing nor shrinking) two eggs on average would live to reproductive maturity (replacing the mother and father), having one male and one female butterfly survive to adulthood from these caterpillars is very good odds. (It’s also possible I could have had more than two–I didn’t know about the chrysalis of the male and only found out because I happened to walk outside while he was hanging to dry and I saw him. If I hadn’t walked out in that particular hour, I would not have seen him or would not have known he was a brand-new butterfly. It is possible others hid even more successfully and I never saw them at all.)

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  22. Ooh, maybe I can share his renderings here once we get into the color selection process.

    They do it via a specialized computer program but it’s time-consuming & is supposed to be very realistic looking, not like the apps the paint stores have you use and not at all “cartoonish.” I’ve told him I really like the Arts and Crafts colors from Sherwin Williams, a company they also like, so maybe that’ll give it a start. Still, he recommends using the little sample paint cans once you’re down to doing the actual paint job. Shades can be so subtle and tricky, especially on a big canvas like a house.

    As for the inside, that’s still to be determined, but I think that should be a bit easier (and will not have so much at stake as choosing the exterior colors!).

    https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/color/find-and-explore-colors/paint-colors-by-collection/historic-collection/interior-historic-colors/arts-and-crafts

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  23. Happy birthday, Donna!

    When I moved into my Nashville house, it needed mostly new light fixtures (and it had a leak at EVERY place water went through, including the icemaker and the pipe under the front lawn; I never tried the dishwasher, but just assumed it had one too, but I had to replace pipes, toilets, the water heater, etc. and so it definitely had a leak to all the others). Anyway, the light fixtures I didn’t need to replace were brass, and brass seemed appropriate and classic with a 1950s house, so I chose to go all brass, even with my standing lamps. But stores didn’t have much brass, and what they did have was all on clearance to get rid of it, since brass was “out.” It’s really silly to me that one particular basic style can be “out,” but it was.

    When I was getting ready to sell my house, my stylish agent (who was a friend from church, and who had sold me the house in the first place) told me to replace the brass, or else to go over all of it with some new-fangled home-improvement show technique to make it all look rusted.

    I was marrying, moving, and selling my house in the same summer, and the brass was appropriate for the house, so I left it as is.

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  25. cheryl, “mid-century” houses are somewhat in (and considered vintage, which makes me laugh a bit as I grew up in that era — how could that possibly be “vintage”??).

    As part of the window restoration, I ordered new hardware, I chose black but the hardware on the windows now (not original, they were put on some time later) are brass — and brass also would have been common in the early 1920s when my house was built I believe.

    But most of the metal in this house, including faucets and light fixtures, are dark bronze or black wrought iron so I decided to stick with that. It looks vintage and also has a Spanish touch in keeping with the exterior architecture.

    I was reading a Home Advisor article yesterday, though, that had some interesting facts about how certain paint colors in certain rooms can rather significantly hike up (or drive down) selling prices if you’re planning to sell a house.

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  26. Cheryl, sure, I will ask his thoughts on that. My God is much stronger than his so I did not see it as a problem. But as far as I could see, the man was talking to the air, much as my daughter does and I don’t forbid her to do that. We were able to pray in gratitude to God for His provision while praying for the salvation of the man who was bound up in false belief. I will be able to continue the discussion with my children about Acts 17, how our God provides our very breath and is not made by our hands or thoughts. He hears the prayers of His children.

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  27. And I realize there are original windows on the other side of the house (a double hung in the spare bedroom and two very small drop down windows in closet spaces) that probably should have been included in the job these guys will be doing Thursday.

    But I was primarily focused on saving these very large 8 casement windows (and 2 double-hung) that are spread throughout the living room & main front bedroom. I will show them the other windows when they’re here on Thursday, perhaps we can schedule those to be done at a later time — or maybe, if it’s not too much more in expense, they can at least weather strip those as well? We’ll see.

    I’ll also need new screens at some point fairly soon, as well as new window coverings after I figure out interior paint colors. I’m definitely tired of the dirt-cheap Amazon blinds that have been up for at least 5 years now. We need something much prettier. (I had some long, inexpensive sheers — Martha Stewart for Home Depot — for a while which I really liked, but those came down once all this house work began and they were simply in the way.)

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  29. Mumsee, Elijah and the prophets of Baal is what came to mind immediately when I read your account–only Elijah didn’t worship “alongside” the false prophets; he had God’s authority to show them to be false prophets. The reality of false gods–demons–also comes to mind. Paul said a false god is nothing, and if you buy meat that has been sacrificed to him, eat it unless it will offend someone else, and the false god is indeed powerless. But still, not on my property and not at my invitation, that would be my take.

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  31. Cheryl, is there anything in Scripture that says one should not let somebody else slaughter or butcher on one’s property while smoking a cigarette and talking to himself? or to a false god? I know we had this discussion a bit a few months ago, but now I have a real life example and am curious.

    How about the time we went to the mountains to observe the dedication of the trail. The Christian Nimipuu were praying to the Creator we know. The others, more to the creation, I am guessing. Should we have not gone? How about the fact that my property is on reservation land, and the people used to spend time here by the creek. They probably prayed.

    I agree that we should not be praying to false gods. But we are surrounded by people who do it all the time, even when they are not calling it a god. How about when the mobile butcher comes by and slaughters an animal. He may not be a believer but I am certain he has his own gods as do all people. It actually is a widespread issue.

    Meantime, my children learned that some very nice people are out there that do not believe like we do. They will have to choose who or Who they serve. We teach them about God but we cannot force them to pray to Him even when they are praying aloud with us. Only God knows their hearts. I want them to know that not all Muslims are what we read about in the news. They love their wives and children. They love their neighbors to the best of their ability. It is when they begin to find out the depths of their belief and become radical that they are a problem. I hope my children become radical Christians, loving God and their neighbors.

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  32. Mumsee, that is why I suggested you ask your husband and your pastor–not to attack you, but just because they may have some guidance, and all I have is my own opinion. But when I ran it by my husband (who is not a pastor but is an elder) he agreed, and then I went ahead and said something.

    I don’t know that Scripture forbids that specific thing . . . but we are told not to have false teachers in our house, and we are told not even to eat with those who have been excommunicated. By the time he is killing the beast in a certain way with prayers to a false god, it is an act of idol worship, akin to setting up an altar in your own backyard, in my opinion. I once lived in a house where idol worship took place–my landlady had a statue of Mary in the basement, and she kept a candle lit to her. When that candle ended up causing a fire she decided Mary would “forgive her” for not keeping the candle lit any more. Up to that point I was vaguely aware of having the shrine in the basement, but didn’t really pay attention to it. Now I don’t think I would choose to continue to live in such a house.

    When I was moving to Nashville, I answered one ad of someone looking to rent a bedroom, and she said that she was a Christian but she practiced (hmm, I can’t think of the word, but it’s false religion and not usually associated with Christianity) and had “stuff” in every room except the room she rented out. I was taken aback and said I would have to think about that, but by the end of the conversation I said no, that wouldn’t work.

    In Chicago I came home one day to a housemate telling me that JWs had come by during the day, and my housemate and a friend had invited them to come back for a conversation on Thursday, and they would like me to be present, too. Well, my housemate was about 22, her friend about 30 but quite immature, and I was in my late 30s and a lifelong Christian. It seemed to me important for their sake that I be there . . . but I myself would not have invited those in a false religion into my home for a conversation in which they were the missionaries. When they came in and we all sat down, I suggested we start with prayer. To my shock, they said they didn’t want to do that. Seeing a wonderful opportunity (esp. in making sure my housemate and friend saw that this is really a false religion and not just a different branch of Christianity) I reiterated for clarity, “It would bother you to have us start with prayer?” They then said awkwardly something about when they had Bible studies, they always started with prayer, but not with such informal meetings, or something like that. But I knew from their body language that they knew that any chance they might have had with this young fresh meat was gone.

    I don’t believe in territorial spirits or that you have to pray over adopted children because of the sins of their ancestors, or that your house is haunted, or any of that stuff. God is stronger than Satan, and He indwells you. But I wouldn’t want someone sacrificing to demons in my backyard, and wouldn’t invite someone to do so, and I thought it worth suggesting that you ask Mike and your pastor about it.

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  33. And I will but I am always interested in what the folk on here think as well. I have been thinking about your comment all morning and trying to figure it out.

    I thought of the many conversations I have had with the JW’s and the fact that I have never invited them into my house but have stood at the door. They have never left my home without knowing that I did not read their information and that I do not worship the same Jesus as they do. They have not come back since I told them they were not going to come have a study with my children, complete with videos.

    We were not worshiping together, in my mind, any more than having a non believer in church and thinking I am worshiping with them. If the other does not have the Spirit of God indwelling, it is not worshiping together. Which is why I said two of us fellowshiping in the Lord and the third we talked to and showed what fellowship between two strangers who had God indwelling could look.

    How does one make disciples if one does not interact with the people? In but not of.

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  34. I am thinking of all the ways our lives intersect with nonbelievers, or idol worshipers. Which I believe everybody is if they are not worshiping God. When we go to a Catholic hospital, or a Mormon mental health center. When we read a newspaper written by atheists. When we google any thing. Now I can see that is not coworshiping but your illustration of the altar in the house, if one is living in the hospital, how does that work? Going shopping etc, all involves interacting but not allowing them on the property. What about electricians and plumbers and contractors? Of course, when given a reasonable option, we give our money to Christian workers but that is not always available. Each of those people could be talking to their idol while working in my house. I have invited them in. I am probably praying at the same time. It gets very confusing.

    By the way, I did not offer to let them in the house for a restroom break though I probably should have, but they are men so it is not a problem for them to go on the side of the road. We did offer them food and water.

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  36. Was the slaughter being performed, in part, as also some kind of sacrifice?

    I’ll admit my gut reaction is the same as Cheryl’s, it’s different from talking to those of a different belief, it seems like something that just goes too far. It’s more of an invitation to practice that religion on your property and with your (though I suppose they’d purchased them) animals that had been raised and nurtured under your stewardship.

    I had an older friend years ago, Baptist/Pentecostal in her own faith, who had an in-home aide who was Catholic. One day, she was startled to see a statue of Mary in her living room, this was something some of the aide’s friends were moving from home to home and people would come to pray. Several of us told our friend she needed to say no to that, but I don’t she ever could for some reason. Awkward, to say the least. (And I’m one who does have friends who are Roman Catholic but whom I also believe to be believers — but shrines to Mary. while within Catholicism’s practices, go too far if they’re in my own home or on my property).

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  39. I had no reason to believe they were sacrifices. I don’t know what he was saying and I doubt he did either as it was in Arabic and only a small number of people in Niger speak Arabic. But he told me he was thanking God for the gift of food for his family. He explained the parts that we normally throw out, and how they cook them to eat. It was quite informative and I had the idea a guy was simply telling me how he was getting food for his three children and wife and self. We agreed that the most humane way to kill the animal was without taking him for a long drive in the cold first. Just get it done. Sort of like when we call for the mobile butcher or kill them ourselves here on the property. I was looking for minimal stress on the animals and a possibly more humane way to kill them.

    I did find it interesting that I have been meditating on how God gives us everything, including the ability to take each breath and he was acknowledging that we are totally dependent upon God. Hopefully, a bit more seed was planted that the God we servenot only provides all of our ability but also sacrificed His Son for us so we could be alive in Him. We did talk about Jesus. And he acknowledged that he does not know what Jesus will say when He returns. That gives me hope that, though he is deeply imbedded in his father’s religion, he is not totally closed to Who Jesus really is.

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  40. Consort, yes, we all do. How could one avoid doing that? 🙂 Unless there are Amish among us? And even they have to consort with the English every now and again.

    I think there are other potential issues being discussed here. And they may not turn out to be ‘issues’ or they may be issues for some and not for others.

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  43. Go back to Cheryl’s comments. As I said, it may be issue for some and not others here, it might be a matter of personal conscience. I would think my Presbyterian pastor might be on the same page as Cheryl’s husband, but perhaps — or perhaps more fleshing out would be needed.

    At any rate, it’s an unlikely circumstance to come up with me, to put it mildly.

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  45. Mumsee, I guess I would ask: Do you believe that killing an animal while calling on the name of a false god is an offense against the true God, in a different way than, say, buying a lamb or a kid is? Or, from a different angle, if someone were coming to stay with you and brought out their traveling household god to set up in the living room, and perhaps feeling the need to give it some food from every meal, would that be an actual offense against God?

    The one who does not worship the only holy God is offending against God continually, but is not falling on the name of the false god a breaking of one of the Ten Commandments and a deeper, more specific offense?

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  46. The “is not” in the previous sentence is, of course, meant to be read in the same way we would say “isn’t” and not with the emphasis on “not.” In other words, it isn’t “not calling on the name of the false god” that breaks the commandment, but doing so, and I meant “calling” and not “falling.”

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  47. Sure, I think it is an offense. And I think that offense is between the doer and God I was not calling on a false god. The other guy was not calling on a false god.

    The way I look at it, anytime you go to a store for a steak where a Muslim, or anyone not a believer, killed the animal, you are eating the meat and did it get offered to idols? Does it matter? God says it does not to the believer unless it is causing a problem. If a native American sells me a fish and he thanked the creator before killing it, and his view of the creator is different from mine, should I decline buying the fish? Seems rather limiting to me, and I am not trying to be flippant. Trying to understand where the line is drawn and how it can be drawn and why a line is needed when I don’t see it in Scripture.

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  48. An “issue” is not an issue until someone makes it one.
    I haven’t looked up the reference, but you all know what I’m talking about here.

    Evidently some of the people in the church Paul was writing to had been consorting with some people who worshipped pagan gods.
    Paul says it’s ok to eat with them until someone makes an issue.
    “Eat the meat that is set before you” Paul says.
    “But if that person says that it was offered to idols, don’t touch it”. But not because it’s your problem, it’s his.
    “I will not do anything to cause my brother to stumble, though I have the right to partake as I wish.”

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  49. Roscuro here. Mumsee, I had no problem with your account. I’m in between classes right now, so I may answer at length when I have more time. During Tobuski, also known as Eid, we ate with our friends in celebration of their holiday, and we knew the animals had been slaughtered according to halal – I remember one team member and his sons went to see them slaughter a bull. I don’t really see it as any different than eating kosher which has to be killed by a Rabbi with special training. The employees, like the compound guards, were all Muslim – one early morning, just before dawn while it was too dark to see beyond the flashlight beam, I and another team member set out and nearly walked into one of the guards doing his morning prayers. We felt badly, because having a woman walk in front of a man doing his prayers means he has to start all over again. When they fasted during Ramadan, many of them asked to store water bottles in our freezers, so they had cold water to drink in the evenings, and if we were friends with them, we tried to accommodate that request. We didn’t see it as encouraging idolatry, but rather showing neighbourly love and concern. If we don’t treat them with respect, how can we expect them to listen to us? If it had been a Jewish sochet (rabbi trained in animal slaughter) would anyone have had a problem with Mumsee allowing him to slaughter an animal on her land?

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  50. It’s been around 80 degrees and oh so muggy today. I am sweating from bringing in the groceries. I think we must be in for a storm soon when the cold front fights to take over again.

    I’ve just shopped, in addition to groceries, for some bigger shirts for Art. We had gotten rid of his big shirts after he had lost so much weight. Now he is too big for his newer shirts. He goes to the doctor this week. I think perhaps his thyroid med dosage needs to be increased.

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  51. Thanks Roscuro, I was beginning to think I was crazy. But you and Chas have set my mind at ease. I will still talk with husband about it but cannot imagine he would have a problem with it.

    Still curious as to where the line would be drawn. Unless one resorts to a self sufficient commune, we are interacting with the folk of the world and all of their man made gods. We are not to emulate them in their worship, but to try to bring them the Light and that is through loving them, I believe.

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  53. Mumsee, fortunately Paul deals with that issue, eating the meat offered to idols, and he specifically says it’s OK. There’s nothing wrong with selling him the animal or with buying the meat (unless buying the meat will cause someone else to stumble).

    When I was in Nashville, I made several trips to one particular small shop in the course of buying a couple of pieces of furniture. It became obvious on one of the trips that the co-owners of the shop were a pair of homosexual lovers. It didn’t make me wish I hadn’t bought the furniture, and it certainly did not make me ask for a refund and refuse to pick it up–there was no reason in the world to avoid doing business with sinners.

    But were one of those young men my nephew, I would not be inviting him to spend the night at my house and allowing him to bring his boyfriend to share the bed (or his girlfriend either, for that matter), because I cannot help the fact that people sin, but I can help offering them a place to do so. I think that is the difference here–knowing that people sin or offering them the opportunity to break the Commandments on your property. It’s between him and God if my nephew has sex with his boyfriend or girlfriend before joining me at my house for Thanksgiving, but it is between me and him and God if I knowingly offer him a bed on which to do so. I know other people will differ with me on that, but when I had housemates I always made clear to spell out that unrelated men could not spend the night at our house for that reason. (I occasionally had a brother spend the night on our couch, and I offered them the same right for a brother or father, but not for a boyfriend.)

    Different people will draw the line in different places when it comes to giving others the opportunity to sin; some draw it tighter than I do. (Some of my brothers, for instance, believing it a sin to drink try to avoid patronizing places that sell alcohol.) At some level we have to be in the world and we have to be realistic, and realize that another’s sin is not our own. But we also have to find out how to avoid partaking in another’s sin, so some lines are necessary. You don’t drive the get-away car, for instance, or sell a gun to someone who cannot legally buy one because of his past gun crimes.

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  55. What a fascinating discussion. Before I saw Roscuro’ s post, I had already thought of the association with kosher foods since the area in which we live has a large Jewish population. I am not sure that is the same as eating Muslim foods. I don’t know, but I would certainly choose one over the other.

    I know our God is a jealous God and wants no other gods before Him. The Holy Spirit brings that verse to mind. If I was aware that meat had been acknowledged as from a god who is not our Creator then I would feel badly eating that meat. I imagine that the Holy Spirit would be directing that thought process. I would turn away from it because I would feel I would have an unhealthy attitude about the meat. But that is me personally. I do not feel I can judge how another believer is led to act in such an instance.

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  56. BTW, I had not hit “refresh” and several other posts had been made by my 4:01 post.

    As to Scripture, I just put two words into Bible Gateway (I happened to have NASB up; the results might vary with a different version): “jealous” and “God.” One result wasn’t relevant, because the two words just happened to show up in the same verse, but dropping that verse, there are 16 left. God describes Himself repeatedly as “a jealous God.” We tend to think of the words “jealousy” and “envy” as synonymous, but biblically the difference is striking. For instance, if a school teacher tells my child that he can take her to buy birth control pills without me knowing about it, I have a right to be jealous of him inserting himself between me and my child. If a woman comes up to my husband and whispers something in his ear and then starts stroking him seductively, I have a right to be jealous. God says He is jealous. He forbad false worship in the land of Israel, not just on the temple property, but in all the land, He is that jealous of His people’s relationship to Himself. Now, we are not in the land of Israel, but we do have a say over our own property. If a pastor knows that one of his visitors is an imam, he should not invite him to say the closing prayer.

    I have the hunch that if I were to buy a lamb from a Muslim and want to kill it right there, I would be told I could not do so, that my just killing it any old way would be seen as profaning his land. (Someone who knows more about such things can set me straight if my hunch is wrong.) Letting a person store water in your fridge and such things are not equivalents–drinking water is a morally neutral act. But let’s say I am right about my hunch that the Muslim would not let me kill a sheep on his property in a way that is not religiously correct, and I will let him kill a sheep on my property after his own religious rites . . . far from showing him polite hospitality, I have just shown him that my own God is a less jealous one than his is, which is not true. He would actually understand if I told him no, you need to take it home and kill it there. (There might be other reasons to say that, anyway. If I raised animals to sell for meat, I personally wouldn’t want them killed on my property no matter how they were done, with nothing to do with religion.)

    Mumsee, neither my husband nor I am saying that you did wrong in saying he could slaughter it right there. You didn’t know it would involve his god. I almost didn’t say anything last night simply because “what’s done is done.” But you suggested he might return to buy more meat in the future, and I thought I really should suggest that you ask your husband about this, lest you be presented with the same issue in the future. You acted innocently this time, and I don’t believe you sinned in your actions. But had I made such a choice and then told my husband, he would be horrified, though he would understand that I had acted in ignorance. And I thought your husband has a right to know, and to give his insight on it and on the possibility of it happening again. You wouldn’t have another man in while Mike is gone, because you belong only to Mike; God is likewise jealous of others called on in His place, even if you yourself aren’t the one calling on the false god. You are free to reserve your own property for the true God, because He is jealous and He has clearly told us so.

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  58. The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof – I don’t think a Christian’s land is somehow more consecrated than anywhere else and can somehow be contaminated by non-Christians praying. Besides, the guard I almost walked into was praying on land that belonged to the team. I attended two meetings involving people from the village and surrounding area coming into the team’s buildings, and each meeting opened with general prayer – that is how meetings open in that area of the world – we prayed to God in Jesus name and they prayed what they prayed. If one hosted a Muslim for several days at their house, it wouldn’t be very hospitable to forbid them to carry out their prayers. Allowing someone else the freedom to practice their religion in the way we would hope to be allowed to practice ours (if we were hosted in a Muslim house, would we want them to forbid us to pray?) isn’t having gods before our God.

    Janice, I would ask what is the difference between Muslim and Jewish practices? Jews who follow the Talmud no more worship our God than do Muslims – both reject Jesus Christ and He is the only mediator.

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  59. Roscuro, we have no say over what happens on another person’s land. Our land may not be more “consecrated,” but it is more directly under our stewardship. It might be considered “inhospitable” to allow a relative to come for a week, but not to sleep with his/her boyfriend for the week, too, I suppose. I don’t know what I’d do in regard to Muslim prayers if I had a relative in that religion, but I do know that we can’t necessarily always make our decisions based on what other people think is or isn’t polite.

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  60. Roscuro, because the Jewish people honor the Creator God of the Old Testament, even though they do not acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah at a particular point in time, I see that they are engaged with a portion of the God we believe in unlike those practicing the Muslim religion that is based solely on false teachings. We engage in some of the same feasts as the Jewish people. Recently I heard that about a third of the Jewish people believe in Jesus as the Messiah, too. We celebrate Passover meals in my church with a further explanation as to how it all ties together with Christianity.

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  61. Interesting note: the slaughter of animals in halal may be carried out by Jews or Christians since they are considered people of the book. The word spoke before cutting the animal’s throat is ‘Bismilah’, translating as ‘In the name of God’ (see my many posts on the use of the Arabic word for God predating Islam) and saying it is both to show thankfulness, as the man told Mumsee, and also to signal that the slaughter was not done unnecessarily out of greed or gluttony. Not saying it is right or necessary, but I hardly think that the halal slaughtering process constitutes a idolatrous ritual.

    Two Scripture passages come to mind related to this discussion – the first from the Old and the second from the New Testament:

    Then Naaman said, “If not, please let there be given to your servant two mule loads of earth, for from now on your servant will not offer burnt offering or sacrifice to any god but the Lord. In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” He said to him, “Go in peace.” (II Kings 5:17-19, ESV)

    Although I am a free man and not anyone’s slave, I have made myself a slave to everyone, in order to win more people. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law—to win those under the law. To those who are without that law, like one without the law—not being without God’s law but within Christ’s law—to win those without the law. To the weak I became weak, in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that I may by every possible means save some. Now I do all this because of the gospel, so I may become a partner in its benefits.(I Corinthians 9:19-23, HCSB)

    The passage telling us not to eat with idolaters does not apply here, because this is what that passage actually says:

    I wrote to you in a letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. I did not mean the immoral people of this world or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters; otherwise you would have to leave the world. But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person. For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Don’t you judge those who are inside? But God judges outsiders. (I Corinthians 5:9-13)

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  62. I purchase groceries from women dressed as Muslims in my area. That is not the same as going to their meat market. I am kind to the women. You never know how they may be mistreated in other places. A lot of the cultures that are present in my area hold women in low esteem.

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  63. Janice, Jesus said that the Jews who rejected him were of their father the devil. They have no special standing before God outside of Christ. They do not worship the God of the Old Testament, because the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament and He said, “No man comes to the Father, except by the Son.” Those Jews who do not believe in the Messiah (a third of the Jews in the US are thought to be Christians, not necessarily worldwide) have expressed a desire that Christians not eat the seder supper, since it is a Jewish custom, not a Christian one.

    To return to my above post:
    Since at no time has a Muslim been considered a believer, therefore we interact with Muslims as we do all other unbelievers. As Paul said, if we didn’t associate with the idolaters and immoral people of this world, we would have to leave the world, because it would be impossible to live. To quote a unknown early church writer:
    “Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe… inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share inall things with others, and yet endure all things as if they had been foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers… They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven..They love all men and are persuecuted by all… They are poor, yet make many rich…They are reviled, and bless…they do good, yet are punished as evil.. those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.
    That is how Christians are to live in their world, for the unknown writer was simply quoting from the Sermon on the Mount, I Peter, John 16, and many other passages telling Christians to live as strangers and pilgrims, as the fathers of faith were. Abraham didn’t go around making the Canaanites live as he did even though they were on his promised land. He was waiting for the promise, as we wait.

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  65. Abraham was given a promise of the land as something that would belong to his descendants, but if I remember correctly, the only piece of land he actually ever possessed as his own (over which he had authority) was the cave he bought to bury Sarah.

    And I agree we do not respond to unbelievers who don’t profess faith in Christ the same way we respond to those who have been excommunicated; we have no charge not to eat with unbelievers.

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  66. Janice, the area where I was 99 percent Muslim. The meat in the market was only halal. As Paul indicated in I Corinthians 5, trying not to associate with the unbelievers by not eating their meat might well lead to one leaving the world from malnutrition.

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  68. Janice, I know I’m free, but I was trying to point out that spiritually, Jews are as lost as Muslims, so their practices of animal slaughtering are not any more right than Muslims – the tradition of a special rabbinical slaughtering technique is not from the Old Testament, but from later Jewish tradition.

    Cheryl, we Christians buy pieces of land, as Abraham did, but the land is not yet ours, though the earth is promised to us. The meek will inherit the earth, but not yet. To regard our current properties as anything more than a tool God has given us to carry out his work – and his work is to spread the Gospel – is to make our land an idol. It seems to me that Mumsee, in letting this man slaughter his purchase on her land, created an opportunity to share the Gospel. That is doing the work of God.

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  69. I spoke with husband, not only did he concur with me, but he hoped we are developing an ongoing relationship. He was pleased with the way the conversation went and future opportunities left open to share the love of Christ.

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  70. So I think we can finally conclude this is one of those circumstances that would be handled differently by us? And that’s OK. Interesting discussion.

    On the crime beat here today, a grandfather kicked granddaughter’s boyfriend out of the house, boyfriend returns to stomp little family dog to death.

    Grandpa was right.

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  72. DJ, I have a couple of ideas for paint colors from my recent travels.

    We are in our tiny lakeside cottage. I think it is just the right size for the two of us. It’s a good thing we have been married 5 years. Mr. P may be sleeping in the queen size bed and I may be sleeping in the double bed. LOL

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  74. I have box valances above all my main-room windows. They perplex me (as do most window covering rules and do’s and don’ts)

    I will also be asking the window restoration crew as they work in all these vintage houses and are probably conversant with vintage era styles.

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  75. Mumsee, I’m glad you got to talk with him about it.

    Roscuro, I’ve often thought about the fact that we don’t really “own” anything, especially anything as long-lasting as a bit of property or a house that will last longer than we do. However, ownership is well established in the law of God, as is proper stewardship of what we own, so I still say we can and should take responsibility for what happens on our own property in a different way than we take responsibility for what happens beyond it. (I am still my neighbor’s keeper, but I am not my neighbor’s judge. I may not like it that he shoots sparrows on his own property just for the pleasure of killing something, but I can forbid him to do so on mine.) Two commandments, against theft and against covetousness, both presume possession.

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  76. I have a friend who raised chicken and goats outside of Champagne, Illinois and, like Mumsee, sold to Muslims all the time–who slaughtered them on her land. I know nothing more, but she had no problem telling me about it and felt, like Mumsee, that it was an opportunity to meet someone from a different culture and establish a relationship.

    She, too, homeschooled nine children and is very knowledgeable about Scripture and interested in evangelism.

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  77. Cheryl, stewardship suggests a lack of true possession, since a steward takes care of another’s possessions. Perhaps, the theft is not so much of one’s possessions, but of one’s responsibility, stealing the position of steward from the one who was appointed by the owner.

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  78. To me, the stewardship issue came up in allowing the animals to be quickly and humanely killed on my property rather than driven for two hours in the cold in the back of a truck while tied in a bundle.

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  80. I love sheep…live bleating sheep…I would never find myself in the same situation as Mumsee selling sheep or witnessing them butchered for whatever reason…that is for certain.
    A couple years in a row we had a Muslim couple over for Thanksgiving. The husband was a co worker of Paul’s….we prayed in Jesus name before eating our meal…..I did not serve any form of pork….we had a most blessed time ❤️

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  81. DJ I should be in Anaheim February 16-20, 2018. I am considering tacking a couple of extra days on. My friend G up in Pasadena wants me to come stay with him and his mother a day or two. I would love to see the house then if I can manage it.
    Box valences? I don’t know much about them and will have to research them. To me they scream 70’s and 80’s. I might like to see them with faux wood blinds and then curtains hanging from rods on each side. I will send you a photo from my dining room next week. Of course that works in the south. I would have to think about west coast. I also need to take some photos of exterior paint colors for you. One is white with a really pretty blue trim. Another is khaki with green and red trim (not as Christmas-y as it sounds) I once had a house pained a dark tan/khaki with white and black trim and a red front door. It really popped.

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  82. We just returned from voting for extra sales tax. Good thing we are not big spenders. We will pay 8% if it passes.

    Roscuro, I am glad you felt free to eat the meat where you lived. I have never been in that situation. I have only worked beside one Muslim. So I do not have your experience. I am glad you felt led to do what you did. You were loving and kind to be a good witness in a missionary capacity. As a Christian with other options available where I live I do not feel I have to shop in the new halal market that is located in the building where I use to buy communion supplies. The land and building are not sacred, but my remembrance of what I did there has special spiritual meaning to me.

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  83. I’m liking blue trim, the old house guy asked what colors I’d been kicking around and I mentioned that to him, a lighter main/primary color with a blue trim and door (but I also said I have been all over the place with colors and still change my mind every few weeks). I do want to do something historic with the colors, inside and out, but there seems to maybe be some leeway built into that and he says they work with you until you get something you like for the exterior. I may have to divide painting the inside, saving back rooms for later, depending on finances and logistics.

    Valances, they seem “formal” to me — and I’m not (formal).

    So my thought was to remove them to just expose the original craftsman molding that is around all the windows and then use simple wrought iron (or?) rods for maybe roller shades and soft, easy, billow-y curtains with ties, either unbleached muslin or sheers or ? Nothing heavy and pleated, that’s for sure, and no strong patterns as there are so many windows and the room would just be overwhelmed. Keeping dogs away from the windows will be another challenge, of course.

    Wood blinds are OK, not bad, I have some old ones on the bedroom windows.

    But cost will be an issue. I still need to pay for this foundation work, some re-stuccoing & the window restoration, so there’s thousands of dollars out the window (ha) in the next few days alone. Worth it, of course, that infrastructure is so important. But the fun “decorative” things may have to be put on a bit of a back burner.

    Nancyjill, I’m with you when it comes to any slaughtering of any kind on my premises, of course 🙂 But people do what they have to do and I understand that. I just won’t ever be able to be part of it, barring drastic circumstances.

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  84. Had a great time sharing in the devotion time at women’s Bible study at my church. It was a little funny as I totally forgot to begin with announcements and singing. I finally saw my note and thus remembered and fit them in in the middle. Actually, from what I had just shared, they hymn fit in rather well at that point.
    Then a couple of lovely older ladies invited me for lunch. Such a sweet time.

    Then, of course, I had to go play with Archie since I was only a block away!
    They had forgotten to tell me that there is another Bible study group this evening so will I share again? I said yes, but what a day for an introvert. and then I have Bible study. Since both are at church that won’t be a problem.

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  86. Mumsee, it makes sense that you wanted to spare the animals the long ride; I rather imagined it was a local buyer.

    The new butterfly: This one is the male monarch butterfly that grew up as a caterpillar in my yard and then hid its chrysalis well enough that I never saw it. After he hung upside down an hour or two, gradually moving up the plant and occasionally opening his wings, he fluttered to a different plant and ran up it, opening and shutting his wings as he ran. This shot shows how I know it is a male: on each hindwing is a black dot, which produces pheromones (scents) and only the male monarch has it. At any rate, this is the freshest butterfly you’ll ever see, only hours out of the chrysalis and minutes from making his maiden flight. I never saw the female with her wings fully open, but I’m glad this guy let me get this photo of him.

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  87. Happy Birthday, DJ! I guess you’re getting a home make-over for your birthday?…and for Thanksgiving….and Christmas. But you’re saving the best for last. I think the painting is the most exciting part! Love the colors you’re looking at, and can’t wait to see what you pick and how it turns out. :–)

    And very interesting conversation, one and all.

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  90. I have a few minutes to get into the conversation about butchering. I am not sure what the deal with facing Mecca is, but I think the basic procedure and goal with halal and kosher kills are the same: to get the blood out of the animal. That’s why their throats are slit, so that the blood will pump out, while the heart is still beating. In my home, where we butcher regularly, we do basically the same thing. My husband always says a prayer, thanking God for the bounty/provision, when he cuts their throat. I don’t see how that is sacrificing to an idol.

    Recently, I taught a young woman how to butcher a goat. I am quite sure we used the same basic technique your guy did. We discussed the slaughter of sheep and goats in scripture. Goats often throw a fit, but sheep just submit, without a fight.

    In the past month, we have butchered 1 goat, 2 steers, and 4 hogs. I did the majority of it, myself. I did have help with 2 of the pigs and 1 of the steers. Happy to have that over for the season, so we can focus on other things.

    We go next week for another follow up appt. We hope that he will be released to be weightbearing on his left leg. It will probably be another month or two on the right leg. The femur still has many large voids to fill in. It is healing, but there are large gaps. We trust that God, who knits his bones together in the womb, will knit them together now.

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  92. That is impressive, RKessler. Do you use a tractor or something to get those steers and hogs done? I am not sure everybody on here quite knows how much work that entails but it is a lot. You are one busy woman! And a good example to the small folk, I am sure, and a blessing to Miguel.

    We did discuss the blood issue and that the life is in the blood, and that Life is in the Blood. I did not see it as much different than lopping the heads off of turkeys, though it seems much more peaceful. We do hold the turkeys in place so they are not flopping around. Death is an ugly thing, I prefer to make it as quiet as possible. I have been a vegetarian before but raising them and doing them in and eating them is my compromise.

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  93. I’ve hit the wall again tonight with this house, trying to clear all the window areas and everything is again/still in chaos, makes me want to scream or cry, maybe both. It’s also a very stressful week at work, I have so many stories to do and I made a mistake one one of them yesterday that needed to be fixed.

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  94. And I still have that leak under the kitchen sink (dog park friended said he’d come look at it) and a few electrical outlets that don’t work, and stucco that has to be replaced where foundation work was done, and pavers to put in — that will all have to be dealt with later.

    Just sick of it all tonight

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  96. Chaos is hard. You, like me, enjoy your peaceful home and it has been missing for quite some time. But you are making progress. There is light at the end of the tunnel. And you probably won’t have to go home to Glory to see it. Those folk will get it done for you. I know this because I knew the guys working on my house were trying to do a good job but trying to get it done so we could get back to normal. It was a long time coming but it did arrive. But I remember those days when I wanted all the people to disappear and take the mess with them. Praying for you, sister.

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  104. praying you get a good night’s sleep DJ…it’s your birthday after all…were you a good sleeper as a baby??!! 👶🏻
    It is snowing around here…more so in the Springs so says the newscaster…all I know is the forest floor is white and it is cold out there!
    Poor Bosley…trying to get into the TV….reminds me of Mike in Willy Wonka… 📺

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  107. Oh! Am I too late to wish Donna a Happy Birthday? It sounded like she wanted to keep it low key. I though her birthday present to self was awesome. Very unique and can be appreciated for many years.
    Happy, Happy, Happy Birthday, Donna, if you check back here this evening!.!

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  108. We do not use tractor. We have a tall, 14 ft, frame with a chain hoist. We hang them there to get them to the quarter stage. I have a saw and grinder, so it is not as hard as you might think. It costs about 60 cents per pound to get an animal processed. That adds up, when you have an 800 lb steer or a 350 lb hog. We save a lot of money doing it ourselves.Once you eat pasture raised meat, store bought meat does not satisfy. We also are able to utilize more parts. We made barbacoa from the beef heads, and I am making tamales from the hog’s tonight. I used the hearts, along with other scraps, to make keilbasa, brats, and chorizo.

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  109. Donna, I feel for you, with all of the house upheaval. Just making room for Miguel’s wheelchair to navigate around the house has made quite a bit of rearranging.

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