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Our Daily Thread 3-18-14

Good Morning!

Today’s header photo is from me. Yesterday I gave you the ugly duck. Today you get the handsome duck. 🙂

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On this day in 1692 William Penn was deprived of his governing powers.

In 1818 Congress approved the first pensions for government service.

In 1834 the first railroad tunnel in the U.S. was completed. The work was in Pennsylvania.

In 1865 the Congress of the Confederate States of America adjourned for the last time.

And in 1945 – 1,250 U.S. bombers attacked Berlin.

Plus like a ton of other things. Click the link.

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Quote of the Day

“Officeholders are the agents of the people, not their masters.”

Grover Cleveland

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Today is Charley Pride’s birthday.

Today is also Jeff Easter’s birthday.

And it’s John Hartman’s too. From Eagle Rock

I think that’s the first time I’ve ever seen a 3 man drum solo. 🙂

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Anyone have a QoD?

88 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 3-18-14”

  1. Morning all. Enjoy your Tuesday.
    My van is left beside the road again. Nice that it gave up within sight of our destination and we found a sweet ride home later.
    We were having dinner at the home of two students who had invited their teachers to say thankyou. They leave finish next Monday.
    Treated to angel food cake with fresh strawberries and whipped cream for dessert.

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  4. Thank you for the Charlie Pride video. He really deserves much more recognition than he has gotten. He broke some racial barriers into country music and although I don’t know for sure my sense is that he did it with a lot of grace and not much fanfare I don’t know. Perhaps some of you remember.

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  7. You can’t tell it from where you are but there is steam coming out of my ears and I feel physically sick. I went back and read the comments from last night on the Bill Gothard situation and the links that 6Arrows posted. I have followed this ever since Cheryl first started posting about it. It makes my head swim.
    I spent 12 years in a Christian school that was weird as all get out.Beginning in 9th grade I was ostracized and not one single solitary teacher lifted a finger to help. They silently and sometimes not so silently joined in. I came out warped. No other word for it. As a result I turned my back on God. I wanted nothing to do with an Angry God who was sitting up in heaven pulling strings like a puppeteer and punishing me for all my sins.
    I also am the survivor of molestation (I cannot call it complete sexual abuse–just can’t go there). My FATHER–the man a more Loving God gave me to protect me found out and put a stop to the situation. Yet, I was still blamed and a large portion of my family thought I was lying. I lost one set of grandparents as a result.
    Eventually I found my way back to God or more likely He decided I had been an outcast long enough and came and got me. That is what I try to tell KarenO about her daughters.
    Last Fall I had the unpleasant opportunity of dealing with a pastor in the same church that was associated with the school I attended. They are the Independent Methodist flavor of Christianity. Rather than offer love and support to the WHOLE family as they were facing the death of a loved one, he stirred the pot, set himself up as the authority and turned sister against sister. He caused a confused and hurting wife to sob in front of me. Talk about your egomaniac! It was all about HIM and him being the preacher! He likes to show off the money he has earned and take certain members of the church out to lunch and drop several hundred dollars. Oh if only I could get the right words and sentences formed in my mind and coming through my fingers. I cannot express to all of you exactly how these things make me feel.
    THEN to read comments that more wives need to submit to their husbands and things would just be better. What about a wife who has been abused verbally, physically, and emotionally? She is just supposed to submit to her husband???? What about a wife whose husband continues to have affairs and the minister tells her to go home and concentrate on her marriage. (Just recently this minister married the man and his new wife while old wife was gently squeezed out of the church)

    These are some of the reasons I don’t trust “independent” or “interdenominational” churches. At least with a large governing body if you get some whack job somebody can do something about removing them!

    I have to get ready to start my day, but I may have to throw up first. Sorry for the long rant, but I still haven’t expressed the emotions this bubbled up inside of me. Every now and then Mr. P will tease me about being a “good Southern Christian wife and being submissive”. I have to inform him that someone lied to him about that. It is sort of a running joke with us. I have also told him that we will have a much happier marriage if he just accepts the fact that I have money hidden from him. It isn’t much. Just a hundred or so dollars but it gives me security in that I can go get my toenails painted and don’t have to answer to anyone and hear and argument on how we can’t afford it. He knows my flaws and accepts them.

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  8. Kim is correct about Charlie Pride. He did it without much commotion about race. He just did it.
    I read his book, “Pride”, and saw his show at Branson.
    His wife planned his theater at Branson and the women had enough stalls so that they didn’t have to wait in line. Elvera said that it was amazing the way it worked.
    His ambition was to be a baseball player, and he did play baseball for a while. He changed his career when real money started coming in.

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  9. Beautiful duck! Actually got a paw pat on the back from Bosley. Her mark of approval. Only time I have seen her touch something specific on my phone.

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  11. I found the initial point in Six Arrows posted article link to have some validity to certain homeschool families where the father does not take the lead as head spiriral influencer. It was that way in my family. During our homeschool years I listened frequently to good teaching pastors on Christian radio so that is how my son got what I felt he needed. But one difficulty that presented was after that wonderful teaching, son felt there was something lacking in our local church sermons. I, too, had that same sense. Not to say we didn’t like the pastor, just that we didn’t get the same depth from the preaching on most Sundays. So son got his “surrogate spiritual father” from a conglomerate of pastors on Christian radio.

    After the writer of the article made that point he should have ceased writing. He went way South with his other opinions and I did not read it all but read enough to know he was not leading readers in the right direction.

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  12. Now that I have calmed down and am rational again…

    REE: Both of you need to be careful to wear comfortable shoes. I have also been thinking that your daughter is also of Indian descent and you are from California. That adds to the diversity of the campus. They aren’t looking for her to be a carbon copy of every other student on campus. She has made some timeless, classic purchases. The reason I recommended the sweater was who knows what the weather will do so if she becomes hot she can take the sweater off and tie it around her neck. With a blazer you don’t have that option and the only people I have seen lately wearing a blazer are men.
    She needs to show a little of her personality as well. Does she have some jewelry or something that has a nod to her Indian heritage? A necklace, earrings or a bracelet? Wear 2 outstanding pieces but not all. Perhaps she could take a beautiful piece of Indian cloth and use it as a wrap around her shoulders? Just a little hint of her heritage, not” full on in your face this is what I am “.
    I would also recommend that she pack her favorite outfit. She might get invited to do something with others and will want to be comfortable and be herself—not who she thinks she should be.

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  13. Blessings to Ree and her daughter. Sounds like an adventure and trip of discovery is in the making!

    Will there be reports of “giants in the land?”

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  14. Good Morning, Y’all!

    Kim…said a prayer for you to have some peace in your day!

    Remember…the same scripture that calls for wives to submit themselves unto their husbands as unto the Lord also specifies that that husband loves that wife sacrificially as He loves his church. I’m pretty sure that is a prerequisite…

    I am so glad that the Lord brought you through the fire to a place where we can be brothers and sisters in Him.

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  15. I’m just happy that Kim has apparently put it behind her.
    I point out Paul’s admonition for wives to be submissive to Elvera. But she doesn’t pay either Paul nor me any attention. 😆

    Serious note”
    I see in the paper where a woman in Manhattan has committed suicide.
    Seems she tied a scarf around her neck and a doorknob.
    It seems to me that it would be impossible. When you need to take a breath, you take it if you can. I don’t understand how this could happen.
    I have stopped trying to understand WHY they would do it..

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  17. INBUTNOTOF That second part of the scripture is often overlooked. Nothing can tug at your heart worse than hearing your grandmother who is suffering dementia ask a young pregnant woman with a bruise on her arm if her husband beat her because she was pregnant. To most of the world my grandfather was a handsome devil. In reality he was a bully. I had a much different relationship with him but when he turned on me it was full force.

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  19. Kim, it wouldn’tlet me vote. Some I don’t know, but some I have definite opinions Like Charleston over St. Augistine, Ashevilel vs Charlottsville, I’m not adamant but I lean to Asheville.
    Fairhope may make it to the finals, but will lose to Charleston I didn’t notice if Summerville is in the running. I notice Aiken is.

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  22. I have a few more, one I believe is this fella’s mate. She looks similar yet different, and her color is muted and greyer. Plus she followed him around, but that may just be because he’s so handsome. 😉

    This one and the one from yesterday stood out amongst the other hundred or so present at the creek. I think he’s just beautiful.

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  23. No woman should have to take abuse. We once had a pastor that apparently kept up the ‘submissive’ mantra to a woman. Her husband ended up urging her to kill herself one day. She took pills at his urging. He would have gotten away with it, had not someone, who knew the situation, happened to find themselves following him in their car just after it happened. The timing proved the wife’s story and made him a liar. She did get the help she needed(as did a daughter), but not from our pastor, who was gone shortly after this. The story is more and worse, but we need not go there now.

    Feminism is a direct result of going too far with ‘submission’. Neither the best God has for his people.

    As I have mentioned before: My husband and two daughters met Charley Pride. He was very, very friendly and nice. I was at the concert, but did not go backstage. I have also read his biography and like his music. People began to like his music before they knew he was black. That could not happen in this day of videos. Too much is put on looks today, even without the racism aspect. Lyrics and melody have suffered, IMO.

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  24. Well, husband got there. I know this because I kept getting phone calls from the card fraud and abuse folk. He left here in a light drizzle but within a few minutes was in the worst blizzard he had seen in some time. He was passed by a semi and a few seconds later was sideways across the highway. Missed his flight but got there eventually. Grateful to God, we are.

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  27. Just curious if your church happens to have an ongoing women’s group, (not just a Bible study, but like our church has WMU, a missions minded group with monthly meetings) is it typical or not for a pastor’s wife to be in the group? I know it really depends on other commitments, but this is the first group I have been a member of. It is all older ladies. It seems it might draw some of the younger ladies, too, who are homeschoolers, if they had encouragement from someone in an upper leadership role in the church. Seems like I remember in another church they had women’s circle groups which were divided up by working ladies who met in the evenings, moms groups, retired, etc. Do the pastors’ wives not participate because it would appear they have a favorite group or clique?

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  29. Mumsee is right, it’s a wood duck. I don’t have photos of them anywhere near that good. But last year we saw them in a lake outside the zoo, and with my new camera I’d be able to get good photos of them at the distance we were, so hopefully we’ll see them again this year and I’ll get another chance! I also saw them at a lake this past fall, ten or twelve of them including some females, but they were on the other side of the lake and the resulting photos quite weak. (In fact, I wasn’t even going to take photos of them, but my husband urged me to at least try, and the resulting photos are interesting, just not detailed. They had “water trails” in the wake of each duck, and that part was cool.)

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  32. Cheryl,

    My new camera was my anniversary/Christmas present. I love it. Photography is so much fun when you have a decent camera. 🙂

    I was about 75-100 feet from him when I took it. The pictures came out really good. The hardest thing is keeping the subject “in frame” at that distance. Like you said yesterday, you have to anticipate what they’ll do next. It’s like leading a target when shooting.

    I love my new Canon, and the 16x zoom is amazing. 🙂
    This is why I can’t wait until Spring.

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  33. Janice, it really depends on the woman. I’ve known pastors’ wives who were quite stand-offish, either having no friends at all in the church or having their own select clique, but usually I’ve had ones who were sweet to everyone but balanced, with a few people who were their friends but not in an exclusive, cliquish way.

    One of my best friends is a pastor’s wife (I went to school with her and her husband, who were dating), and so I hear “inside” stuff about how it feels to be a pastor’s wife. My own inclination is that a great demand is placed on a pastor’s wife, and some of that is reasonable. (She indeed should be an example to younger women, if anything “even more so” than other older women in the church.) But she can’t live her life around other people’s expectations, because she can’t please everybody. She should go to her husband’s church (I’ve known pastors’ wives who didn’t!), and she should be hospitable, and she should be an example to the other women, and she probably should be involved in some way. (My own pastor’s wife takes a lead role in preparation for church dinners.) She really should attend services and Sunday school if possible. (If she has babies or special needs kids or an invalid mother-in-law who lives with them, or any other number of possibilities, the service might be all she can manage!) I’d say in terms of the ladies’ Bible study, she should go if she reasonably can, but she shouldn’t feel like she “has to.”

    My own belief is that a church should support a pastor adequately–if at all possible–so that his wife doesn’t have to work, even if their children are grown. She might help out in the church office (which also does away with the perceived and real threat of the church secretary issue) or she might do some volunteer work or she might lead the women’s Bible study, or she might even work ten hours a week. But she has enough to do with being a wife and especially a pastor’s wife, particularly if they have children at home, and a job stretches the family too thin. If the church can afford fewer pastors because of having to need to pay the pastor adequately, so be it. The elders are supposed to be carrying some of the pastoral load anyway.

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  34. Linda,

    We’ve booked our hotel for April 24, 25, 26, Thurs-Sat. We are probably doing Longwood on Friday because I’d like the whole day so I can take all the photos I want. We may do the Winterthur(sic) as well, but Thurs afternoon or Sat. morning. If you folks are up for it, we’d love to have you join us, otherwise, lunch or dinner any night would work. Let me know if we can make it happen. 🙂

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  35. One of our churches had ‘circles’. Each had a name. Although it was discouraged, there could be competition among them. The only competition I was aware of was between the ‘young’ mothers and the older women’s. I am not sure if the older women were competing, but I know some of the younger women were. The reason for the younger/older divide was that mother’s interests were different when the children were young and times scheduled were different.

    Our current church has no woman’s group, but does carry out the activities. I think it is more individual directed. I miss having a group that does things.

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  36. Sounds like good ‘fashion’ advice from Kim. Ree, you’ll have to let us know how it all goes.

    Prayers for Idahomike wandering in the land of blizzards, semi trucks and missed connections.

    That is a beautiful duck. I live a few blocks from a city park with many ducks and geese. One day I was driving past, on my way to church, when I spotted an old man hand-feeding the geese (who can be ornery). Perfect picture, it would have been, but I was running just barely on time to pick up my ride and couldn’t stop.

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  37. Kim’s story of her experiences at a Christian school are eye-opening and one that should serve all of us as a reminder of how important it is to be faithful to the gospel and tender-hearted toward all. After all, we’re all the “outcasts” as our pastor said last week after our call to worship from a reading in Isaiah.

    My parents initially lived in an orthodox Jewish area of Los Angeles — we’re talking black hats and long beards — when I was little so church choices were few. We wound up at a Baptist church even though our family background was more Methodist/Episcopalian/Presbyterian. We weren’t real regular attenders (my dad never went), but we did have a connection there and I believe that’s where I was “dedicated” as a baby.

    Years later my mom told me how oddly chilly my SS teacher from that church was — she said we often wound up riding the same bus or trolley as he did during the week and he never even acknowledged us.

    In some ways, the cultural lurch to the left we’re seeing in America may be good for the church. It could create an environment that will strengthen us and remove some of the pride and sense of political entitlement we may have come to embrace.

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  38. I’m going to return to my most recent mantra–fear. The “need” to control, I believe, comes out of fear. Your wife has to be submissive so you can control her, because of what she might do if out of your control. Your children have to behave a certain way because they might become independent, out of your control, and your “face” may not look so good.

    I’m as guilty of this as the next, of course, but Jesus is about being set free. We don’t have to fear when he is at work in our lives and the lives of those we love. If we demonstrate our faith in the Creator of the Universe, we can release our expectations of others behavior into his care.

    Which is where it belongs anyway.

    Adam and Eve were not content with the freedom they had to live in a secure place, they wanted more control–to be like God.

    Well, here we are as a result.

    God gave us frameworks in which to live–the Ten Commandments–and then he let us go to fill the world and enjoy him forever. We got directions on how to worship him in Exodus and more precise directions on how to live our lives in the world. We finished Exodus Sunday in SS. Leviticus will be a one-day overview because so much isn’t pertinent anymore. But remember, at the time Leviticus was writen, the people had been slaves for 400 years. They didn’t know how to live in freedom and it was throwing them. They needed direction.

    (Sort of reminds me of Amish Rumpsriger–or however you spell that–where the Amish youth are given a year to “blow” everything out of their systems before they decide if they’ll become members or not. Unfortunately, the Amish youth tend to not get any direction and screw themselves up in a terrible way as a result, but I digress).

    The Lord provides what we need when we need it, but we need to hold everything in a loose hand and trust to his grace and mercy.

    Off to teach on Hannah . . . .

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  41. When I first saw the duck I thought it was wooden. When I saw Mumsee’s post I remembered the Wood duck and gave Mumsee credit for being our expert naturalist. She knows creatures! So then I thought, wow! That’s a real duck!

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  42. Bosley gave credibility to the fact that it was real, too. She’d know the difference between fake and real. She could probably even smell duck when she saw the picture.

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  43. You know why wood ducks are called that? It isn’t because they may look like decoys (as apparently some of you thought of today’s photos). It’s because they’re the only dust that nests in trees. They nest in a hole high off the ground. When they hatch, the mother calls them from the ground, and one by one they jump out. They then follow her (waddling) to water. I’ve never seen this except in video, but it’s fascinating.

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  45. The Real, I have seen 5, 6, 7 or 8 man drum solos – and they beat anything the West turns out in the way of rhythm hollow (pun intended). Rhythm comes so naturally to the West Africans, that any child could have taught our rock drummers a thing or two. The professional entertainers could take a rhythmic theme and play endless variations on it in harmony between the higher pitched tama and the lower pitched sabar. At village celebrations, women would join the professionals by turning over their metal bowls to beat. The children across the way from my house would practice on empty water or gas jugs.

    Janice – my church currently has no women’s groups. I don’t miss them either, I like the interaction between the genders in any outreaches or other efforts – I think we complement each other and there is less of the hen pecking that goes on in a women’s only group.

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  46. Thanks for the advice, Kim. It looks like I should just leave it to her because her instincts seem to be good. She really does dress tastefully on her own. I guess my mistake was looking at College Confidential discussion board for tips. She was on the right track all on her own, and I just confused things with those advice threads. I’m so glad I asked you because it took a lot of pressure off of both of us. So again, thanks so much!

    The interviews are on the 31st, and she’ll find out the results later that week, so I’ll be back to let you guys know how it went.

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  48. Hi all. Follow-up from yesterday and the link I posted at 7:36 pm, authored by the former Vision Forum intern:

    Roscuro and Cheryl, I took note, as well, at the authorship and his background. The influence that Doug Phillips and the VF philosophy has had on him are quite obvious in this paragraph:

    “Hopefully, however, this incident [he’s referring to the allegations against Bill Gothard, but, obviously, to anyone who’s done the smallest amount of research into this, it is way more than one incident] is also a wake-up call to the Christian families of America to the vulnerability that sending your daughters off to serve away from their families under another man puts them in. It’s not dangerous merely in ministries, but also in the corporate world for a family to send or abandon their daughter to the work force. Not only does it make her vulnerable, but it also tends to train her to think feministically—not as a helpmeet to a man serving God in the context of a family.”

    This mentality fits right in with the VF concept of “stay-at-home daughters”, unmarried daughters being “helpmeets” to their dads, etc. Never mind that the Biblical definition of a help meet is within the context of marriage only (a wife to her husband), not a daughter to her dad, a woman to her employer, or other contexts in which a female serves or assists a man in some capacity.

    I have never used any Gothard/ATI materials (I’d never even heard of him until recently), but I am quite familiar with Vision Forum Ministries, and have ordered materials from them in the past. I believe it was in Doug Phillips’ tape “What’s a Girl To Do” (or it may have been another recording of his that I purchased) that he used the example of Dinah’s rape in Genesis 34 to illustrate why a daughter is foolish to venture out of her home without her God-given protector accompanying her. It is another “blame the victim” scenario, or a “blame the family” one, where the husband or father did not adequately protect her. DP never spoke out against the heinousness of the crime against Dinah, only the factors leading up to it, the negligence of the victim and/or her “head” in avoiding a situation like that. DP and VF seemed, IMO, to build a whole doctrine around that Biblical event.

    So it was dismaying, though not surprising, to me that the author of this article spent so much time outlining what he thought were possible misunderstandings and missteps a family could make that would lead to sexual and spiritual abuse.

    It was sickening to me that the author seemed to be much more willing to give Gothard the benefit of the doubt, and focus his article on what the families should and shouldn’t have done, and how the victims may just be misinterpreting things (like a hug). That infuriated me, that attitude of suggesting the victim may just not understand the perpetrator’s intentions. (Not that he would ever use the word “perpetrator”, even with the word “alleged” in front of it.)

    Along the lines of what Janice said above (8:58 am), I think the author could have simply focused on encouraging dads toward greater spiritual leadership in the home, and left it at that. All that other business of casting doubt on everyone but the perpetrators angered me.

    Cheryl, thank you for posting your comment here last night what you had written at the persevero site. (I don’t like that word “persevero” anymore, because it was the word DP used to close his letter to readers on the first page of every Vision Forum catalog that came out each year, but I digress.) Like you, I suspect your comment isn’t going to be released from moderation. It would be nice if I would be proven wrong on that, but I notice that all the comments that were printed on that post and the one other post I read at that site were favorable to the author. I also noticed that his long comment on the post I linked to had only a summary of the comments he had received from his “detractors” (I can’t remember if he used that term in the linked post or comment section, or the other post I read). It would seem that the people who disagree with him are not given a voice there, with their whole comment published as written. If they’re mentioned at all, it’s in summary form, his words, with plenty of warnings about not bearing false witness, etc.

    It would appear that Doug Phillips taught him well. 😦

    P.S. Kim, I am sorry for all the pain you endured in your school years. Like others have said, though, I am glad for the healing and restoration God has worked in your life.

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  49. A further thought about yesterday’s closing topic and this morning’s opening one. One thing that really bothered me about the writer’s blaming all of this on creating ‘surrogate fathers’ was that he said that Gothard’s behaviour to these young women was like that of a father. From the descriptions I have read on Recovering Grace, every one of these girls experienced things like Gothard playing ‘footsie’ with them, gazing long into their eyes and having them make detailed confession of any sexual sins or thoughts they might have had.
    I, for one, would have been horrified if my father had done any one of those things with me. When we were children, he used to play rough and tumble with us, but as we grew up, he gave us the space and the respect we needed. Not to say he never had any more physical contact with us, but it was familial affection like quick hugs and kisses on the cheek. Gazing deep into each other’s eyes is what my siblings did with their fiancés, not our father! As for detailed confessions, my father left it to my mother to discuss such intimate subjects with us, knowing that she, as a woman, understood us far better. I hope the writer would not treat his daughters the way Gothard treated his female apprenticeship students.

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  50. 6 Arrows, we cross-posted. I will add that the Vision Forum’s interpretation of Dinah’s story is exactly the same as the IBLP version in the Character Sketches: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/04/character-sketches-or-sketchy-characters-dinah-and-tamar/ I remember reading the sketch in shock as a young teen (up to then, I had thought her rapist was solely to blame) and fearing that the same thing might happen to me if I got out from my father’s protection.

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  51. AJ, dates noted. I had to look up “Winterthur” and it looks interesting, although I’m not sure if hubby would appreciate it. At least we’ll “do” dinner, if nothing else. I’ll run it by him and we’ll firm up days and times as it gets closer (although it’s actually already quite close, isn’t it? It’s hard to think about April when there’s fresh snow on the ground).

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  52. HRW posted several months ago about nuns in passing, noting they wore robes much like chadors and suggesting religion wanted to hide women (this is my memory; he may not have said that). I’d never seen the nun’s robes in that way before, and it made me think differently about their purpose in setting the women apart as “wedded to Jesus,” but also to diminish their femininity.

    Reading what 6 Arrows and Roscuro have written (I didn’t read last night’s blog posts, sorry), takes me right back to fear. You don’t create strong women who can recognize sinful behavior or dangers in the world by locking them up at home. We need to be gentle as doves and innocent as lambs, yes, but we also need to be wise as serpents. You set up a woman for exploitation if she has no experience with the world except through the supervision of her father.

    Yes, we worried when our daughter left for college, but we also knew she had a good head on her shoulders and felt confident she could handle the absurdities that came from college. She’s done just fine. Had we tried to lock her into a position of not using her own head and common sense coupled with Biblical wisdom, I suspect we would have had rebellion.

    Instead, we prayed, let her go and have watched in amazement as her spiritual life flourished. She went armed, however, not sent out without any experience at all.

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  53. Michelle, and 6 Arrows, the day I realized that IBLP was completely wrong in their women-under-father’s-protection teaching was when I read that the Taliban had made a law that no woman could venture outside her house unless veiled in a burka and accompanied by a male blood relative (note that the relation had to be by blood). I began to see that the ultra-conservative, fundamentalist movement by Christians in the West had its counterpart in the East – the fundamentalist Islamic movement was also formed in reaction to moral decadence. Both are political and social forces based on a legalistic code and as you say, Michelle, both were founded in fear.

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  55. Spring is in the air. I was out dusting my trees earlier and could not believe the number of dust nests. But it was fun watching the cute little dustlings leap from the trees and float gently to the earth, only to waddle off after their mothers….At least the cats and dogs don’t eat them.

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  58. Thanks, Michelle and Roscuro. Fear-based is exactly it. And Michelle, same thing with my 20-year-old college daughter as with your daughter. She’s got a good head on her shoulders. She’s also taken a course in self-defense and has pepper spray on her key ring.

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  59. I agree with someone who said that looking at that duck you can just see God the Creator. What an intricate painting job He did there.
    Mumsee, it is going to be interesting without Mike there to rein you in! or does he?

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  60. For those of you who know me on Facebook you can look at Mr P’s view of the day and my view of the day and see the injustice I suffer in my life. 😉

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  61. Re the discussion about the guy attacking those who would dare say (on the internet) that what Gothard has done is inappropriate: the multiple ironies in his post and follow-up are almost funny. First he writes about egomaniacs (or some such word) but writes 1980 words in one comment in his own comment section after not allowing dissenting comments.

    Then he dares to quote a verse (I’m quoting from memory here): “He who answers a matter before hearing it, it is folly and shame to him” to prove that people have to “hear both sides” before forming an opinion . . . which basically means that as long as Bill Gothard continues to keep silent on the matter, no one is allowed to form an opinion! How convenient. But how can you say that answering a matter you haven’t heard is shameful when you yourself have refused to look at the evidence but you’re writing thousands of words about it?

    Finally, he points out the foolishness of a website discussing these matters on the internet, and seems to use the word “internet” with a sneer in each use. Yet he himself is using the internet to say things shouldn’t be discussed on the internet.

    I fear for the souls of many of these people who are sticking their fingers in their ears and humming “la la la, I can’t hear you.” And their children are in danger . . . greater danger than a kid might have in getting a part-time job outside the home! (And yes, the daughter as “help meet” to her father is creepy and unbiblical.)

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  62. BTW, those of you who have followed this scenario with Gothard, you are welcome to pray for me in wisdom in my interaction with my family on this issue. As far as I know I only have one sibling who respects the man (and I don’t know how much he has followed him), but I definitely have more than that who have been influenced indirectly by Gothard (and directly by Vision Forum and other such sources, buying in to some of these principles). I’m forwarding some of the information I’ve gotten, but so far no one has come back to me and told me they’ve read it, let alone that they’ve read it and found it eye-opening. (If anyone wants any more “details” of situations involved, you can e-mail me, but that’s all I want to say on here and maybe more than enough.)

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  63. Cheryl, I’d like to pray specifically for you in your interactions with your family on this, and would like to email you. Quite some time back, you had posted an email address at WMB, I think, that started with “extra”. Do you still have that email address? (I wrote the whole thing down, and can use that one, if you want.)

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  69. Okay, I’m still not caught up with all the comments, but just had to jump in here after I read this from Kim…

    “Eventually I found my way back to God or more likely He decided I had been an outcast long enough and came and got me. That is what I try to tell KarenO about her daughters.”

    Thanks for the reminder, Kim. I started to cry, & lifted my arms up to God, praying, “Please come get them, Father.”

    As for the result of the custody hearing yesterday, all of our hearts are aching over it. And for Leon & me, this came right smack on top of Chrissy’s announcement that she’s moving in with the McKs. (Of course, Emily doesn’t understand why I am so upset over Chrissy’s moving, because she doesn’t understand the spiritual implications which are my greatest concern about this.)

    I feel a combination of numb & sick-to-my-stomach over all this.

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  70. KarenO, friends of ours had a daughter who had accepted Christ through VBS and ended up bringing her entire family (including our friends) to the Lord. She wandered away during her young adulthood and the parents prayed and agonized and prayed some more. They even prayed “Lord, send her to Africa, if that’s what it takes.” Guess where their daughter is now a missionary with husband and 3 kids? You got it – Africa. Hopefully that is a small bit of encouragement for you. Praying with you for your children.

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  71. Kare – Thank you. I’ve read & heard many salvation stories over the years, & sometimes one or another will pop into my memory to encourage me.

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  72. Yeah, Kim, I’m looking forward to traveling there. The Southeast is the part of the country I’ve seen the least of. I kind of hope she ends up at this school. I think it would be good for her to spend time in some other part of the country besides California and the Northeast (where my family is and where we spend a good part of every summer.)

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  73. Greenville is a beautiful town. There is a spectacular Christian art museum at Bob Jones University. It seems I recall it has one of the largest Christian srt collections in the United States. If that interests you, check it out online.

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  74. Upstate SC is a nice area. It isn’t perfect there but we are in “the Bible belt”. It will be definitely different from California and the Northeast.

    Mumsee, et. al. It is said that a woman’s greatest asset is a man’s imagination.
    Likewise, what we imagine about a “scandal??” is probably worse than the facts.

    😉

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  75. Thanks, Janice, I’m definitely interested in that. I doubt we’ll get a chance to visit it on our weekend visit, but if she ends up at Furman, then certainly!

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  76. Chas, the injustice Kim suffers is great.

    At least we have a candidate show up in a chicken suit every now and again.

    Karen, what a storm you’re in right now, just one thing on top of another. The court hearing sounded so unfair, what does your attorney say?

    Tess and I are playing hooky tonight from obedience class. I had some errand stops I wanted to make on the way home so we’d have been hopelessly late anyhow — plus I’m tired. One stop was to the dry cleaners who said they’d (so far) run my poor skunk-tainted comforter through twice but there’s still a faint whiff of scent. So they’ll try running it through 1 more time and if that doesn’t work I suppose I’ll just dump it. 😦 It was my favorite but several years old so I’d gotten good service out of it. I think I got it at Ross, it was green & black plaid with plain feather (not down) filling.

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  77. Ah, finally got a call tonight from my disabled friend, I hadn’t heard from her for going on 3 weeks (which is long for us) — she’d had surgery but then her cell phone bill was overdue so it was shut off. I did call the main desk where she’s staying a couple weeks ago and they assured me she’s “ok” and they’d let her know I’d called. My emails to her were unanswered, but I guess she has to go to the library to get the wifi needed to access her emails.

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  82. 6 Arrows, yes, I still check that e-mail address occasionally (though these days that usually means every few weeks). You can e-mail me there, and either tell me you have done so or I’ll try to remember to check it. Thanks.

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  83. Thanks Ree — they said they also tried airing it out, but maybe if it gets significantly better with the 3rd go-around I’ll bring it home (I think they’ll charge me either way) and try hanging it outdoors.

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  88. Good evening Jo
    Good afternoon JoAnne. We’ll be praying for Gamibia today.
    It’s a bit early but we’ll be off to the Y soon.
    Hendersonville is about 50 minutes north of both Spartanburg and Greenville. We usually go to Spartanburg when we go to the mall, or somesuch, because it’s more convenient. Right off I-26. You won’t notice it Ree, but Gaffney, Spartanburg, Greer, Greenville, Anderson are a bunch of small cities that make a large metropolitan area. They are separate citiesbut have grown together.

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