Michelle, I have consistently told my European friends and relatives the exact same thing as the article points out. Our high schools are easy and for socializing but university is hard; the exact opposite of European schools. What this article fails to mention is the relative low performance of European higher education — the best universities in the world are mostly located in the US. The great “sort” occurs when Europeans are between 12 and 16 whereas North Americans are sorted by 18. Our college completion rates are extremely low because we let everyone in and fail them in the first year. Once you are accepted into a European school its almost impossible to fail and thus Europeans spend college years socializing.
The Europeans redirect students into trades or work by 15-16. As my Austrian friend pointed out; since the state pays for education (and even gives out student allowances) they aren’t’ going to waste a year of college on someone who shouldn’t be there whereas North American schools will gladly take the money of anyone and then gladly fail them in the first year.
There really isn’t anything wrong with American education. In fact, the emphasis on socializing before the “sort” is probably more inclusive and better for society.
Also of interest; charter schools and vouchers don’t help.
The vast majority of our students attend public high schools. These are run by the government and teachers unions. Many of the students have parents who don’t care about their children’s educations or don’t know how to help their children. Vouchers would help the poor and students from bad homes, but if private schools took vouchers it would lower the quality of private school education as they would have to “dumb down” their programs for the masses.
Many of our best universities are private. Our best public universities are largely attended and run by our elites. Apart from a few affirmative action students like Michelle Obama, our best universities are not attended by the masses.
HRW, You are right about the difference in the “great sort out” between the US and Europe. Unless a US student is in a college prep program at an elite high school, the last two years of public high school are a complete waste of time. Many students (particularly Hispanics) understand this, “sort themselves out” early, drop out and go to work.
Michelle’s article also makes a great point about American high schools being for socializing. My wife (who was a public school teacher before our son was born) has said for years that we should move to a European system. This will not happen because:
1. Many Americans are not ready to be told that their 14 or 15 year old is not college material; and
2. Many students and parents love the social aspects of the last two years of high school (football, Homecoming, the Prom, and other extra-curricular activities).
My brother is a high school teacher (at a charter school in Watts), my mother taught junior high; I, of course, have a bunch of children who attended a bunch of different schools (Thank you, US Navy).
In my opinion, our attempts to send everyone to college are misguided. I agree, we should have a sorting system a little earlier and let the kids who have no business going to college take shop classes and things that will prepare them for real jobs. I’ve seen that unless you’re college prep material (those AP classes), schools divide in two. For the intelligent student who wants to work with his hands, say, the classes tend to be free for alls: lots of movies, little challenges to stretch and learn.
I’m not sure why that is–American insistence they will not bow to any authority, including the teacher? But it’s wasting everyone’s time.
I’ve a friend who homeschooled her kids to high school. Her youngest is there now and the friend detests the school. Yet, her child insists that she doesn’t have to take this and that class (which are requirements) because she’s never going to use those subjects.
Um, that’s a little ignorant of this teenager. How would I have ever guessed the typing classes I took in high school were among the most important to my life today? Yeah, all that math, but it makes me more confident with the accounting I have to do as part of my job. I could have benefited from a computer class; I’ve had to learn about HTML and so forth on my own. I never would have guessed that.
I guess I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth here, but mostly I see an attitude problem–among parents, teachers and students. I shudder to think what the future will hold. 😦
Michelle, I believe the waste associated with forcing non-college bound students to sit in classes their last two years in school instead of receiving vocational training will eventually be eliminated as we approach national bankruptcy.
Our creditors will probably also force the following changes:
1. Spending on healthcare will be cut (either by intelligently moving to a market approach or by having bureaucrats ration care);
2. Defense spending will be slashed drastically. This combined with the various social changes being imposed on our military will cripple the US military.
3. All federal spending other than entitlements will be cut. This will be accepted by most young people who are increasingly libertarian. The US government which won the Cold War and put a man on the moon is increasingly seen by Americans as completely inefficient and incompetent. Our people are gradually becoming aware that our government can not be trusted to do anything well, and cannot be trusted to tell the truth on issues such as Iraq, global warming, drugs, etc. I will be interested to see the reaction when the myth that homosexuals are “born that way” is exposed.
When a country (even an intelligent country like Germany) replaces the free market with decisions by bureaucrats, there will always be bad, counter-intuitive, unintended and humorous results.
There must be a scientist somewhere in Germany who’s smart enough to know that solar energy won’t work there. Germany is on the same latitude as Canada. It’s true that every place on earth gets the same amount of sunshine during the year, but the sun is weak at that latitude most of the year. Nobody goes to the beaches at Hamburg to get a suntan.
Germany needs coal and oil.
Chas, I believe Krauthammer is right. The Left’s commitment to radical environmentalism isn’t based on science. It is a religous cult. That is true for all but the few who have become rich off “green energy” subsidies. They are the green versions of Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who make a great living begging from governments and practicing extortion against corporations in the name of “Civil Rights”.
There has been some talk on here about Russia seeming to be more morally straight than America. I would hesitate to make that assumption based on one or two issues.
The reason there are so many stray dogs in Sochi, that authorities were rounding up to exterminate, is because many people were kicked out of their homes for the government to take the land to build for the Olympics.
After feeling bad for the poor dogs, I came across an article about the deplorable conditions in Russian orphanages. I couldn’t do more than skim that article, because I was already starting to cry. In addition to that, I understand that the abortion rate in Russia is way higher than here.
Top quality post secondary education in the US and UK tends to be dominated by private institutions but these tend to be heavily funded by the military industrial complex and thus derive much of their direction from gov’t policies. Once you get past the obvious private schools, the American midwest land grant universities (Michigan, Wisconsin etc) and the California system (Berkley) perform almost as well.
The initial egalitarian impulses which established a high school system for all has degenerated into misguided and blind parents combined with profit-motivated higher education. Delaying a sort until first year college doesn’t help anyone. Some lose two-three years pursuing the wrong path and lose income, others are bored waiting for the chaff to fall, and both groups fall into debt as they wait.
The social events North American schools are famous for can still be done just in a different setting or a year or two earlier. Why not start high early and end it earlier. For example, in grade seven I have eight IEPs, and six or seven bored high achievers and eleven/twelve in the middle. In Ontario, high school has three streams; basic, applied and academic …. I already teach all three but only the middle group is served as well as it should be. My school has 2-3 grade seven classes each year, we once proposed to have an applied and academic class (informally of course) but our principal wouldn’t even think about it — as soon as the class lists came out, the parents/students would figure it out and the phone calls would never stop. Notice how every group here knows which student belongs where but none want to act on it until grade nine. This is misguided egalitarianism. Real egalitarianism would allow for early “sorting” but equal funding for all three streams.
Michelle correctly notes this refusal to accept authority in the North American education system. We defer to doctors, lawyers and other professionals but not teachers. Since almost everyone has had some contact with public education we all think we are entitled to an opinion. And this eventually makes its way to the students who as Michelle notes argue about requirements, assignments, etc.
When American publications and websites, left and right, write about European energy polices, the results are highly biased. Are there problems? yes. Are there successes? yes. Solar and wind in Denmark and Germany have given them energy independence with less reliance to international market swings. As for expense, one could argue hidden subsides of infrastructure, transportation, taxes, etc need to be factored when stating the cost of coal and oil.
Hidden in the article was a reference to Germans importing cheap US coal. I found it strange that the Germans would import American coal when Polish (and Russian) coal is right next door. Are American extraction costs (labour, environmental controls) that much lower than Polish costs? Or is the US Congress subsidizing coal exports? It would be slightly ironic if the US was subsidizing and alleviating Germany’s problems with renewable energy by shipping them cheap coal.
Maintaining a country’s moral purity is often used by fascist or totalitarian gov’ts to justify a heavy gov’t hand. Often those who support a free market ideology and libertarianism contradict themselves with a demand for gov’t moral intervention.
The US (both its government and its popular culture) is the worldwide leader in the promotion of abortion and perversion. In fact, at this point it is difficult to think of anything the US values more than perversion.
Russia is far from perfect. Many in its government would agree with HRW on the value of socialism and centralized planning.
However, led by its church Russia alone has taken a courageous stand to protect its young from those who seek to turn them into perverts. For this brave and Christian act, Russia has been universally condemned by the atheist West which is completely dominated by the perverts and their allies. I will support and praise Russia for taking this stand.
At this point, Oklahomans, Texans and South Carolinians (and many others) have more in common with Russians than with the residents of New York, New England or San Francisco. More and more people are beginning to understand this fact.
HRW, I agree 100% with your points regarding misguided egalitarianism and your proposal for an early sort combined with equal funding for all three streams. Unfortunately, in the US the racial implications of an early sort based on merit alone make your fine proposal difficult, if not impossible, for the politicians.
Americans need to be a little skeptical about what the US media (and the US government) tells us about Russia. Remember what we were told about Iraq, global warming and other issues.
The story about dogs and people being kicked off their land so the Olympic sites could be built is a good example. The press didn’t say that hundreds of Americans lost their homes so the new Cowboy stadium could be built. This happens whenever a new American airport, stadium, highway, or lake is built. This wasn’t really news at all.
The lesson to learn from Iraq is that many reporters are dumb and lazy. They are likely to parrot what our government tells them.
democratic socialism? yes.centralized planning? not so much. Modern corporations resemble state enterprises far more than they do the small enterprise Adam Smith lauded. Centralized planning is far more like to occur at duPont or Ford than in the Swedish government.
You seem to accord the gov’t a role in regulating individual morality yet you seem to reluctant to ascribe it a role in the economy. This is rather strange. After all, its far more intrusive to be in my bedroom than at my workplace. Even more interesting you seem to recognize the absence of regulation in morality is in fact a gov’t policy or intervention thus I wonder if you see the lack of gov’t intervention in the economy as an approval of a certain economic model and in fact approval.
You’re right the actions of Russia are no different than any other host of an international event. Dubai is abusing Indian and Pakistani workers building the World Cup soccer site. Beijing cleared out its poor and slums ahead of the Olympics. Toronto arbitrarily arrested over 500 people during the G20. Its all the more reason to rail against the corporate elite.
For the most part the media just reports press releases and celebrity gossip. FOX, CNN, RT and al-Jezera have a responsibility not to us but to their corporate/government owners. The left has known this for decades and never trusted a single word of the Bush administration regarding Iraq.
You’re right about the parental objections on “sorting” but the same already occurs at the end of grade eight when teachers recommend basic,applied, and academic. Whether we tell them in grade six or eight some will refuse to sign and insists on academic even though its not in the child’s interest. And parents will claim racial, ethnic, linguistic, religious etc bias.
HRW, You and I are in agreement on much today. I understand the tension between my semi-libertarian views on economics and my traditional views on social issues. However, the left does not want the government to be neutral on perversion. Public schools and universities have spent the last 20+ years indoctrinating our youth with pro-homosexual propaganda. The big corporations that you hate so much are also big promoters and financial supporters of perversion.
On abortion and perversion, we are a divided country. The Northeast and West Coast holds European post-Christian views. The South still holds Christian views. As long as the states are united, one group will impose its values on the other.
Wandering Views 
Full of links today. Here’s one from Slate: Our High Schools are a disaster:
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2014/02/high_school_in_america_a_complete_disaster.html
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Commodities; the next bubble ?? Matt Tabbi takes both Republicans and Democrats to task here specifically Eric Holder and Phil Gramm.
http://m.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-vampire-squid-strikes-again-the-mega-banks-most-devious-scam-yet-20140212
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Michelle, I have consistently told my European friends and relatives the exact same thing as the article points out. Our high schools are easy and for socializing but university is hard; the exact opposite of European schools. What this article fails to mention is the relative low performance of European higher education — the best universities in the world are mostly located in the US. The great “sort” occurs when Europeans are between 12 and 16 whereas North Americans are sorted by 18. Our college completion rates are extremely low because we let everyone in and fail them in the first year. Once you are accepted into a European school its almost impossible to fail and thus Europeans spend college years socializing.
The Europeans redirect students into trades or work by 15-16. As my Austrian friend pointed out; since the state pays for education (and even gives out student allowances) they aren’t’ going to waste a year of college on someone who shouldn’t be there whereas North American schools will gladly take the money of anyone and then gladly fail them in the first year.
There really isn’t anything wrong with American education. In fact, the emphasis on socializing before the “sort” is probably more inclusive and better for society.
Also of interest; charter schools and vouchers don’t help.
LikeLike
The vast majority of our students attend public high schools. These are run by the government and teachers unions. Many of the students have parents who don’t care about their children’s educations or don’t know how to help their children. Vouchers would help the poor and students from bad homes, but if private schools took vouchers it would lower the quality of private school education as they would have to “dumb down” their programs for the masses.
Many of our best universities are private. Our best public universities are largely attended and run by our elites. Apart from a few affirmative action students like Michelle Obama, our best universities are not attended by the masses.
HRW, You are right about the difference in the “great sort out” between the US and Europe. Unless a US student is in a college prep program at an elite high school, the last two years of public high school are a complete waste of time. Many students (particularly Hispanics) understand this, “sort themselves out” early, drop out and go to work.
LikeLike
Michelle’s article also makes a great point about American high schools being for socializing. My wife (who was a public school teacher before our son was born) has said for years that we should move to a European system. This will not happen because:
1. Many Americans are not ready to be told that their 14 or 15 year old is not college material; and
2. Many students and parents love the social aspects of the last two years of high school (football, Homecoming, the Prom, and other extra-curricular activities).
LikeLike
HRW also explained why European higher education is inferior: it is funded by governments. Obama is moving us in that direction.
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My brother is a high school teacher (at a charter school in Watts), my mother taught junior high; I, of course, have a bunch of children who attended a bunch of different schools (Thank you, US Navy).
In my opinion, our attempts to send everyone to college are misguided. I agree, we should have a sorting system a little earlier and let the kids who have no business going to college take shop classes and things that will prepare them for real jobs. I’ve seen that unless you’re college prep material (those AP classes), schools divide in two. For the intelligent student who wants to work with his hands, say, the classes tend to be free for alls: lots of movies, little challenges to stretch and learn.
I’m not sure why that is–American insistence they will not bow to any authority, including the teacher? But it’s wasting everyone’s time.
I’ve a friend who homeschooled her kids to high school. Her youngest is there now and the friend detests the school. Yet, her child insists that she doesn’t have to take this and that class (which are requirements) because she’s never going to use those subjects.
Um, that’s a little ignorant of this teenager. How would I have ever guessed the typing classes I took in high school were among the most important to my life today? Yeah, all that math, but it makes me more confident with the accounting I have to do as part of my job. I could have benefited from a computer class; I’ve had to learn about HTML and so forth on my own. I never would have guessed that.
I guess I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth here, but mostly I see an attitude problem–among parents, teachers and students. I shudder to think what the future will hold. 😦
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Michelle, I believe the waste associated with forcing non-college bound students to sit in classes their last two years in school instead of receiving vocational training will eventually be eliminated as we approach national bankruptcy.
Our creditors will probably also force the following changes:
1. Spending on healthcare will be cut (either by intelligently moving to a market approach or by having bureaucrats ration care);
2. Defense spending will be slashed drastically. This combined with the various social changes being imposed on our military will cripple the US military.
3. All federal spending other than entitlements will be cut. This will be accepted by most young people who are increasingly libertarian. The US government which won the Cold War and put a man on the moon is increasingly seen by Americans as completely inefficient and incompetent. Our people are gradually becoming aware that our government can not be trusted to do anything well, and cannot be trusted to tell the truth on issues such as Iraq, global warming, drugs, etc. I will be interested to see the reaction when the myth that homosexuals are “born that way” is exposed.
LikeLike
When a country (even an intelligent country like Germany) replaces the free market with decisions by bureaucrats, there will always be bad, counter-intuitive, unintended and humorous results.
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http://www.american.com/archive/2014/february/germanys-energy-goals-backfire
Here is the article that goes with the comment.
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There must be a scientist somewhere in Germany who’s smart enough to know that solar energy won’t work there. Germany is on the same latitude as Canada. It’s true that every place on earth gets the same amount of sunshine during the year, but the sun is weak at that latitude most of the year. Nobody goes to the beaches at Hamburg to get a suntan.
Germany needs coal and oil.
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Chas, I believe Krauthammer is right. The Left’s commitment to radical environmentalism isn’t based on science. It is a religous cult. That is true for all but the few who have become rich off “green energy” subsidies. They are the green versions of Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who make a great living begging from governments and practicing extortion against corporations in the name of “Civil Rights”.
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Just one little thing. There are some who don’t need to go to college, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not intelligent enough for college.
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There has been some talk on here about Russia seeming to be more morally straight than America. I would hesitate to make that assumption based on one or two issues.
The reason there are so many stray dogs in Sochi, that authorities were rounding up to exterminate, is because many people were kicked out of their homes for the government to take the land to build for the Olympics.
After feeling bad for the poor dogs, I came across an article about the deplorable conditions in Russian orphanages. I couldn’t do more than skim that article, because I was already starting to cry. In addition to that, I understand that the abortion rate in Russia is way higher than here.
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Thanks Karen, I agree — Russian tyranny? No thanks. Talk about your “big,” all-powerful, authoritarian government. Shudder.
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Top quality post secondary education in the US and UK tends to be dominated by private institutions but these tend to be heavily funded by the military industrial complex and thus derive much of their direction from gov’t policies. Once you get past the obvious private schools, the American midwest land grant universities (Michigan, Wisconsin etc) and the California system (Berkley) perform almost as well.
The initial egalitarian impulses which established a high school system for all has degenerated into misguided and blind parents combined with profit-motivated higher education. Delaying a sort until first year college doesn’t help anyone. Some lose two-three years pursuing the wrong path and lose income, others are bored waiting for the chaff to fall, and both groups fall into debt as they wait.
The social events North American schools are famous for can still be done just in a different setting or a year or two earlier. Why not start high early and end it earlier. For example, in grade seven I have eight IEPs, and six or seven bored high achievers and eleven/twelve in the middle. In Ontario, high school has three streams; basic, applied and academic …. I already teach all three but only the middle group is served as well as it should be. My school has 2-3 grade seven classes each year, we once proposed to have an applied and academic class (informally of course) but our principal wouldn’t even think about it — as soon as the class lists came out, the parents/students would figure it out and the phone calls would never stop. Notice how every group here knows which student belongs where but none want to act on it until grade nine. This is misguided egalitarianism. Real egalitarianism would allow for early “sorting” but equal funding for all three streams.
Michelle correctly notes this refusal to accept authority in the North American education system. We defer to doctors, lawyers and other professionals but not teachers. Since almost everyone has had some contact with public education we all think we are entitled to an opinion. And this eventually makes its way to the students who as Michelle notes argue about requirements, assignments, etc.
LikeLike
When American publications and websites, left and right, write about European energy polices, the results are highly biased. Are there problems? yes. Are there successes? yes. Solar and wind in Denmark and Germany have given them energy independence with less reliance to international market swings. As for expense, one could argue hidden subsides of infrastructure, transportation, taxes, etc need to be factored when stating the cost of coal and oil.
Hidden in the article was a reference to Germans importing cheap US coal. I found it strange that the Germans would import American coal when Polish (and Russian) coal is right next door. Are American extraction costs (labour, environmental controls) that much lower than Polish costs? Or is the US Congress subsidizing coal exports? It would be slightly ironic if the US was subsidizing and alleviating Germany’s problems with renewable energy by shipping them cheap coal.
LikeLike
Maintaining a country’s moral purity is often used by fascist or totalitarian gov’ts to justify a heavy gov’t hand. Often those who support a free market ideology and libertarianism contradict themselves with a demand for gov’t moral intervention.
I have very little enthusiasm for mass sports events viewing them similar to the Roman bread and circuses. Admittedly I do watch hockey and peek at the medal counts; after all I am Canadian. But here is a good video which makes you think twice about such mass spectacles.
http://www.vice.com/vice-news/why-the-sochi-olympics-are-the-most-expensive-in-history-vice
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There are two great moral issues of our time:
1. The killing of unborn babies; and
2. The promotion of perversion among the young.
The US (both its government and its popular culture) is the worldwide leader in the promotion of abortion and perversion. In fact, at this point it is difficult to think of anything the US values more than perversion.
Russia is far from perfect. Many in its government would agree with HRW on the value of socialism and centralized planning.
However, led by its church Russia alone has taken a courageous stand to protect its young from those who seek to turn them into perverts. For this brave and Christian act, Russia has been universally condemned by the atheist West which is completely dominated by the perverts and their allies. I will support and praise Russia for taking this stand.
At this point, Oklahomans, Texans and South Carolinians (and many others) have more in common with Russians than with the residents of New York, New England or San Francisco. More and more people are beginning to understand this fact.
LikeLike
HRW, I agree 100% with your points regarding misguided egalitarianism and your proposal for an early sort combined with equal funding for all three streams. Unfortunately, in the US the racial implications of an early sort based on merit alone make your fine proposal difficult, if not impossible, for the politicians.
LikeLike
Americans need to be a little skeptical about what the US media (and the US government) tells us about Russia. Remember what we were told about Iraq, global warming and other issues.
The story about dogs and people being kicked off their land so the Olympic sites could be built is a good example. The press didn’t say that hundreds of Americans lost their homes so the new Cowboy stadium could be built. This happens whenever a new American airport, stadium, highway, or lake is built. This wasn’t really news at all.
The lesson to learn from Iraq is that many reporters are dumb and lazy. They are likely to parrot what our government tells them.
LikeLike
democratic socialism? yes.centralized planning? not so much. Modern corporations resemble state enterprises far more than they do the small enterprise Adam Smith lauded. Centralized planning is far more like to occur at duPont or Ford than in the Swedish government.
You seem to accord the gov’t a role in regulating individual morality yet you seem to reluctant to ascribe it a role in the economy. This is rather strange. After all, its far more intrusive to be in my bedroom than at my workplace. Even more interesting you seem to recognize the absence of regulation in morality is in fact a gov’t policy or intervention thus I wonder if you see the lack of gov’t intervention in the economy as an approval of a certain economic model and in fact approval.
You’re right the actions of Russia are no different than any other host of an international event. Dubai is abusing Indian and Pakistani workers building the World Cup soccer site. Beijing cleared out its poor and slums ahead of the Olympics. Toronto arbitrarily arrested over 500 people during the G20. Its all the more reason to rail against the corporate elite.
For the most part the media just reports press releases and celebrity gossip. FOX, CNN, RT and al-Jezera have a responsibility not to us but to their corporate/government owners. The left has known this for decades and never trusted a single word of the Bush administration regarding Iraq.
LikeLike
You’re right about the parental objections on “sorting” but the same already occurs at the end of grade eight when teachers recommend basic,applied, and academic. Whether we tell them in grade six or eight some will refuse to sign and insists on academic even though its not in the child’s interest. And parents will claim racial, ethnic, linguistic, religious etc bias.
LikeLike
I’m always reminded that we live in a fallen world, no matter what earthly “kingdom” we are in. 😉
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Donna – True, indeed.
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HRW, You and I are in agreement on much today. I understand the tension between my semi-libertarian views on economics and my traditional views on social issues. However, the left does not want the government to be neutral on perversion. Public schools and universities have spent the last 20+ years indoctrinating our youth with pro-homosexual propaganda. The big corporations that you hate so much are also big promoters and financial supporters of perversion.
On abortion and perversion, we are a divided country. The Northeast and West Coast holds European post-Christian views. The South still holds Christian views. As long as the states are united, one group will impose its values on the other.
LikeLike