The Real’s question, we typically have a good deal if food in our cupboards and freezers. But there are seven people in the house.
At a certain point, a mass quarantine does not work. There is reason to think that it made things worse in Wuhan, and it certainly did so on the Diamond Princess. There are large numbers of elderly and infirm people who live by themselves, and placing a mass quarantine will result in some of those people being found dead, as has been reported to have happened in Wuhan. Epidemics kill indirectly as well as directly, as was seen during the West Africa Ebola outbreak, when other diseases went untreated due to the preoccupation with Ebola.
Reading this morning, on BBC, about the children in cages. Apparently five hundred in cages on Lesbos as they were rescued from boats escaping Turkey and headed for Greece. What do people want or expect?
These are not cages, though they are. They are enclosures designed to keep the children as safe as they can under the circumstances. They are not detained as in needing to be processed like an adult but they are kept from wandering the streets of whatever community they end up in, which have predators of all sorts looking for children to take advantage of. They are being fed though not necessarily in the way they want.
Where should these thousands and thousands of children be placed? Leave them to their own devices? Let them drown in the sea crossings or the dessert? Give them away to any takers? Or put them where they can be marginally safe, feed them, try to find relatives, or put them in foster homes eventually?
OK, I’ll bite. How about homes, Mumsee? Or barring that, orphanages? There are large historical buildings with estates in Europe that stand empty, why not use them to house the children? They won’t do it of course, but they cannot pretend there are not other options to metal cages. To be confined that way is severely damaging to a child’s development, physically and emotionally. The birth rate of Europeans has all but ceased, with whole towns lacking in children, so that nurseries and schools have to be closed, but they cannot find it in them to house the children that flee to their shores.
Despite the rain, the Birthday Tree has started blooming. Art’s birthday is on the 11th so I hope for full bloom by them. We did not get a storm here yesterday which was a blessing. We saw a bit of sunshine late in the day.
My sore throat seems to have cleared but I am staying home from Bible study and WMU. Some bugs seem gone but return with a whammy. I don’t want to chance giving anyone else an illness. My throat seemed so sore last night that I truly expected it would be bad today.
I talked with my friend Karen finally yesterday. I am really confused by her and a bit hurt. I am turning it all over to God in exchange for His peace.
Roscuro: of course homes. That would be the ideal, though there is a time requirement as they cannot be instantly placed in homes the moment they touch shore. There is a time of looking for their relatives, checking out possible placements and then, as you said, finding people willing to open their homes.
We have offered but it is not as simple as that. Every home must be inspected and background checks run on every adult occupant of the home. This all takes time. Months of home visits, and reams of paperwork. Some of these children will only be in care a few days until their family is located and arrangements made. Even though many have been in refugee situations for years. It is a challenge.
Orphanages, like mental institutions, were mostly done away with. And one has to wonder. The idea of being in an open area, visible to authorities and peers, seems to be an improvement over the rooms and abuses that often take place in orphanage systems. Ideally, we would all treat each other rightly but then we would not be in this situation. Thousand upon thousands of children.
Good Morning Birthday tree!! Oh so lovely! ❤️
We shall be in the mid 50’s around here today and I am meeting a precious friend for lunch in town. After a wintry winter I am ready for fresh air and warm breezes! But alas I am a realist and I know our snowiest months are ahead of us. 😳 😂 ⛄️
Roscuro, in a more compassionate world, your idea would be great. Mumsee is being pragmatic given the world we live in where compassion is lacking. Yes, the children are in a bad situation, but not the worst given what is available. Do you see a way to change the hearts of people to make your idea feasible? Prayer is a great way to begin. After that? Write letters? Write opins for the newspapers? What should people do? It would be wonderful if the wealthy with influence and means changed from the original Scrooges into men (women) with new hearts.
I wonder if it would be worse? Yes, children fall victim on the streets, but they also survive, and learn, and grow. Once Europe’s streets teemed with such children, born in poverty and obscurity in Europe itself, orphaned by disease, and threatened by disease, malnourishment, and physical danger. But people saw their state, and while the hard hearted condemned them as nuisances and threats to the civil order, enough people with compassion took action to provide those children with education, medical care, and other social supports that their descendants now live in relative prosperity. By hiding the children away from the public eye, it is easy to ignore their needs and leave someone else to take care of it.
Children: I suspect the idea with the confinement is to keep them more than just alive and surviving, but keeping them healthy and moving them to relative safety. The death and illness and abuse rate in these “facilities” is much lower than that on the streets. At least from my reading of Dickens, I believe. Then there is the shooting of the children in places like Brazil. An ugly ugly world at times. What does God think???
I am sure God takes note of the empty, opulent estates in Europe, and the children in cages at Lesbos, since not even a sparrow falls without his knowledge. In wartime, even the estates of the wealthy were commandeered to provide housing and hospitalization for those who needed it. But refugees from other shores are not considered worthy of such an ordered response.
Institutions have about as poor a track record of safety as the streets. The residential schools in Canada had an extremely high rate of not only physical and sexual abuse, but also of disease and death – at least 1 in 25 children in the residential schools died as a result (by comparison 1 in 26 Canadian soldiers died in the trenches of WWI). The extensive study of the 100,000 Romanian children placed in institutions and essentially caged under the former oppressive regime showed that children’s brain development is permanently impaired by lack of social interaction: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/06/neglect. The past is simply being repeated.
Scientists studying the novel coronavirus in China discovered two different varieties of the infection could be spreading around the world.
Researchers at Peking University School of Life Sciences and the Institut Pasteur of Shanghai published a study on Tuesday, identifying a more aggressive type of the virus found in 70 percent of analyzed strains, with 30 percent belonging to a less aggressive variety, according to CNBC.
The study indicated that the more aggressive coronavirus primarily exists at the origin point of the virus in Wuhan, China. Researchers say the frequency of the more vigorous variety has diminished since early January.
The scientists in this study said the newly discovered variety of coronaviruses is most likely a mutation and maneuver of natural selection as the virus spreads and adapts. However, officials caution that the data in this study is still “very limited,” according to the report. …
Last night my brother called and at the end of the conversation asked if I had done anything about the paper. I said no. He called earlier today. We had a nice conversation. No mention if the paper. Instead of saying bye, he said, “Paper, paper!” I just have to laugh it off. Maybe I should have said, ” Yeah, we’ve got plenty of toilet paper.”
Roscuro: The cages are not individual isolettes, they are open structures where the children can run and play together but visible so people can know they are not preying on each other as so often happens. There is no connection with the Romanian horrors. And it is temporary, the children are moved on as quickly as can be done with the massive amount of regulations.
Yes, Greece has lots of old homes, many in great disrepair and the requirement of keeping historical authenticity. By putting in those restrictions, a lot is lost as the owners cannot afford to maintain in historic ways. We have become so focused on the forest, we have forgotten the trees.
DJ, the Spanish flu had two different strains. The first, which circulated first, was less deadly than the second, and the second killed the young and healthy. That is the concern with a widespread virus, that it will mutate once in wide enough circulation and the mortality rate will increase.
Chas, even with incomplete figures, the mortality rate of COVID-19 is about 2% (the Spanish flu had the same mortality rate). Seasonal flu has a mortality rate of about 0.1%. It is not only the high mortality rate that is of concern, but also the fact that no healthcare system, however well managed or funded, can handle as large an influx of critically ill patients as would happen if COVID-19 spreads unchecked (the attempt to limit exposure is less to stop the disease and more to slow transmission to a manageable rate). It is estimated one in five people infected become seriously ill. There is not enough respirators and oxygen supply to treat such a number of patients struggling to breathe. After all, there is already a shortage of surgical masks. Then there is the fact that the country hardest hit by the disease is also the largest manufacturer of many of the supplies the rest of the world needs, and their production is being affected by this outbreak. There are many factors at play that make the disease of concern to the world.
Roscuro, I know, and that’s what I’ve been concerned about — these viruses mutate. So while there are overreactions, it’s also warranted to be concerned about new “bugs” that appear on the scene and spread so wildly. There’s an unpredictability to them.
Mumsee, where are you finding the information that the children are being kept there for their protection under observation temporarily until other arrangements can be made? The BBC only has a very short clip on the subject, which does not convey any statement of substance from the authorities about what is being done with the children, and searching does not reveal a longer article on the topic from the BBC.
Roscuro: I have followed this challenge for years. The children are kept temporarily until stable placement can be found such as relatives or foster homes. These are not refugee encampments where they stay for years. It is a temporary stop gap.
The fact sheet on zoonotic (animal) origins notes the similarity to a coronavirus found in pangolins, something I had seen in headlines. The pangolin, a small, scaly relative of the anteater, is a delicacy (it also has some use in Chinese medicine) in China, where the native pangolin has been hunted to extinction and its consumption banned, but is illegally smuggled from Africa. I have an acquaintance (we have mutual relatives) in an African country who loves animals and word has got out to the locals that he will buy animals to save them. He once obtained a pangolin that was destined, no doubt, for the illegal meat market, which he released into the wild. Human greed can do so much damage to our world.
Caging children: you can google various questions and get a lot of unpleasant results. But the facts remain. Children are moving along as possible. They are not dying en masse, though that could change if some horrid disease comes through. The few who have died, were quite ill upon arrival and did not get treatment. Not totally shocking considering the enormous numbers being dealt with both on our borders and in Europe.
Mumsee, it is indeed temporary, as this influx only happened recently, as Turkey is trying to distract the EU from the fact it is actively invading Syria. I read predictions over a year ago that Turkey would hold back the refugee influx to the EU only so long as it was convenient for them to do so in their relations with the EU. I take leave to doubt that anything permanent is planned for these children. Aid workers to the camps in Greece have already been attacked by mobs who want to stop aid to the refugees.
Carol decided to buy herself some ‘gifts’ with the money that should have gone to her cell phone bill so she’ll be out of contact through all of March. 😦 She hasn’t done that in a long time, but I guess was due for a relapse. But her health isn’t great and so now I have no easy way just to keep up with her w/phone calls and texts or even an email (though I can still call the front desk to leave a msg for her, I guess, and email the administrator; but no direct contact).
She’s had issues with oozing wounds on her legs which the staff nurse checks, cleans and dresses daily — one looked like it was bringing on an infection so the doctor ordered some antibiotics a week ago or more; those finally just arrived. They’ve also (finally) ordered a wheel chair for her. I may email the administrator up front just to let her know I’m out of direct touch with Carol for now and for them to keep me informed if there’s anything that needs to be passed on.
The kinds of facilities she’s in can be especially vulnerable to the spread of viruses.
DJ, the presence of sin in the world is not supposed to be an excuse for indifference, but a spur to action.
Both careless ecological destruction to obtain raw materials and human enslavement, if not to absolute slavery, at least to dangerous and difficult working conditions James’ invective against rich men who defraud those who reap their wealth for them still rings true. The worst atrocities of the last centuries had greed as a motive: King Leopold’s Conogo rubber company maiming and killing millions of Congolese workers for not meeting their quota; Stalin’s greed for the rich farmland of the Ukraine; the Nazi greed for the wealth of their Jewish neighbours, robbing even their dead bodies of their gold teeth. Nearly every factory disaster, from the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire to the collapse of the clothing factory in Bangladesh, has been found to be due to shortcuts in safety made to cut costs. Right now, reports are emerging that China is using the forced labour of interned Uighurs to manufacture Western goods, including the iPhone: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51697800. Turkey is alternately greedy for the lucrative trade with the EU and the gain of territory in Syria, and the Syrians themselves suffer either way. The love of money is the root of all evils.
*Both careless ecological destruction to obtain raw materials and human enslavement, if not to absolute slavery, at least to dangerous and difficult working conditions, are due to greed.
~ ‘No Time To Die’ Release Date Moving To Fall In Hopes Global Theater Biz Back At Full Strength ~
I hadn’t thought about how this is impacting theater-going; the economic and cultural disruption the virus is causing is also an ongoing (and not a minor) concern.
Long Beach has the grand prix coming up in April which is a massive weekend-long event that brings hundreds of thousands to the city. Wondering? At some point, it’s probably too late to postpone or cancel these kinds of events that have been in the planning stages for weeks or months already.
~ (Dr. Barbara Ferrer, director of the County of Los Angeles Public Health Department) also said people should keep their distance from one another in public settings and may want to use “verbal salutations in place of handshakes and hugs.” Businesses should also adjust their leave policies, she said. ~
Husband heading back down. They want that boy out of there. Daughter will need to go spend forty eight hours in with him and sis in law is not comfortable with one year old and twin girl on oxygen for forty eight hours. They want boy home by Sunday. Her husband gets in Monday.
Speaking of movies, husband always wondered how people continued attending those and sports events and eating out when the economy was so bad. It will be interesting to see how that plays out with illness potential.
The thing about sin is, well, it “is.” It underlies everything that’s wrong with us and that’s wrong with the world around us. There’s a tendency we all have, I think, to focus on some sins more than others, but we know that it really runs the gamut of all the world’s ills (and our own personal stumbles, day in and day out). We shouldn’t use it to dismiss the evil we see. It’s always a fight we face — and one that we are called to engage in.
I suppose I have my hands full with my own sins most of the time. But there is a place for engaging the nations and the culture around us as well, of course.
Exactly. Sin has influenced everything and we cannot expect it not to. Which does not stop us from trying to help in the ways available to us.
I wonder what I would want or expect if I was leaving a difficult life, headed toward what I had been told was “the dream” and needing to cross illegally before throwing myself and children on the mercy of the new country. Expecting to be incarcerated with my children as so often happens in other countries? Expecting to go freely though breaking the law? Expecting my children to be cared for as humanely as possible? Expecting them to be sent to my extended family? Expect them to be released on the street while I was detained? It has to be terribly difficult.
They probably don’t know any of that, Mumsee. If they’re fleeing their lives, which so many may be doing, they just want out. Based on some of the books I’ve read, they may very well be professional people who have lost their livelihoods and are being threatened. I cannot imagine what they must be fleeing if taking such a chance seems the best option.
For many, just getting safely out of their countries (would that include Turkey?) is preferable to whatever they are leaving behind.
Did out ancestors consider whether they were breaking the treaties made with the First Nations/Native Americans when they came to North America and settled on land the treaties recognized as belong to the First Nations? It wasn’t just First Nations who suffered from broken treaties, as the story of the Acadians, known as Cajuns in the southern US, bears witness.
The former pastor of the city church was a Cajun, and often joked he had just returned to his homeland. As a descendant of the settlers who moved into what was then Acadia, now Nova Scotia, after many of the Acadians were forcibly moved out, I once, half seriously, half humourously, apologized to him for what his people suffered. He often spoke about welcoming the refugee and immigrant – to him, it was personal.
Nova Scotia has been learning from its past. Many in that province stepped forward to sponsor Syrian refugee families, and one such family, confectioners, has already paid
I think we all truly want the best for those many children. We can all agree on that. Talking all day about their needs does not provide for them. In your opinion, Roscuro, who exactly needs to be acting on their behalf to provide what you are suggesting? Noticing and complaining and pointing fingers at people without any proposed solutions is vanity as Solomon would say. He also says that there is nothing new under the sun. And we are told that the poor will always be with us. Are you feeling a call from God to start a Christian mission to help the children? People on this blog are mostly older and have already chosen mission fields they support. There are too many needs and resources are limited. Everyone here that I know of has compassionate hearts. We just don’t all jump on the same bandwagon.
Michelle said, in different words, what I was about to say. that is:
“Whatever is there is better than what is here. I’m leaving.”
The problem for us is that there are too many of them in the world. They all want to come to America. If not that, Europe will do.
Then they will make America like it is there.
The downtrodden people of the world outnumber us. We cannot allow people to come here without proper immigration procedures.
Janice, Mumsee asked a question, which she intended to create a discussion, and I answered and we have been discussing it as she wanted. My comment about human greed, incidentally, was not even tied originally to Mumsee’s discussion but to the discussion about COVID-19.
Janice, I have very little with which to build anything. I have already broken my health in mission work. I am currently the only member of my household with regular employment and I am payment ng back a student debt, so my financial resources are very limited. I have one thing left to me to help the cause of those less fortunate, and that is my words.
Roscuro, when you mentioned opulent estates in Europe I took it as a labeling of people as being greedy because they do not share that property with the less fortunate. Is greed not the problem there?
Migrants: the USA has a good share of legal migrants from all around the world. Many have made the adjustments necessary and have done very well. Many have brought family members over to join in and begin new lives. All well and good., we have numerous feel good stories on that account. They are welcome. And they want others to be able to come in and start new as well. But many of those successful ones do not want, and are quite vocal about it, people to come in illegally and break the rules. It makes their lives more difficult as well as everybody else’s.
For my part, I welcome anybody to come in legally, expecting that people with clear criminal intent or past behaviour will be excluded.
My concern is the many number of people, especially children, in the refugee systems around the world. And especially those separated from their families. Many many many of the children, according to the border patrol website, are unaccompanied minors. We see the same in other countries. What is to be done for these children in a broken world? Leave them to their own devices? Keep them safe until homes can be found? Send them back?
Janice, it was not the first thing in my mind when I spoke about the eatates. Actually, I was recalling the words of a British Anglican priest from several years ago when the refugee camp in Calais was a hot topic who challenged those who tried to make the excuse of a housing shortage as a reason not to allow more refugees, by suggesting that England’s historical sites could be turned into housing if necessary. It is a challenge I have often pondered since. I love history, and the marks it has left upon our landscapes, but am I willing to see those landmarks go if it means others will be helped? After all, those historical landmarks are certainly going to be destroyed by fire, and it is what we did for the people in this world that are the questions the Lord will ask us at the end.
Mumsee, as World has been regularly reporting, the options for refugees to come are steadily decreasing, and it is well known that certain of the incumbent president’s advisors are against the entry of more refugees (I get this from World, not the left wing media).
I think at the end we have to acknowledge our faith in Jesus Christ as our only hope for getting into heaven. The things we do over and above that will get us rewards in heaven. I have not been a Christian as long as others here so if I have missed something about the faith, please let me know.
I realize faith is dead without works, but God gives assignments to people. We should not feel guilted into taking on things He did not call us to. We can get too diffused by taking on too much and lose effectiveness. In fact, I have been thinking of how to concentrate giving to the most important that God reveals as my mission field.
Janice, I have been making reference to, among other passages, the parable of the sheep and the goats in the gospel of Matthew (25):
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat;
I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you took care of Me;
I was in prison and you visited Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
“And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’ Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
For I was hungry
and you gave Me nothing to eat;
I was thirsty
and you gave Me nothing to drink;
I was a stranger
and you didn’t take Me in;
I was naked
and you didn’t clothe Me,
sick and in prison
and you didn’t take care of Me.’
“Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
“Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
As Jesus says elsewhere in Matthew, “You will know them by their fruits.” John the Apostle later summed up the two passages with the words in his first epistle, “Whoever has the good things of the world, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion, how can the love of God dwell in him?”
By the way, I have not written to target criticism at any here. In the spirit of debate, I had thought we were speaking of general concepts, not making personal critiques.
Phos
In the Old Testament, God had Israel drive out and kill all the inhabitants of the land to which he established Israel.
In the New Testament, Jesus opened salvation to all men who would believe. He had nothing to say about how a government in formed, nor managed.
There will be a time when all nations are governed by Christ. And all people will know Him.
But i believe that America (USA) is unique in the world with a constitution that assures freedom and justice to all it’s citizens.
Thought neither Jesus, nor Paul had anything to say about how government should be run, I think both would agree that the concept of freedom for all is the best.
That concept has been adopted to some extent by other nations. But not by most.
The {one nation, under God) is unique in the world and we should be careful to prevent it from becoming like the rest of the world.
We welcome the unfortunate and downtrodden.
But under our rules. We don’t want hordes of people invading our country with the intent of making it like the one the left.
Just trying to solve the world’s problems. In this case, what about the children? In my view, the US is doing about the best, with our limitations, we an do. I have not seen any viable improvements. Even with an extensive foster system or orphanage facility, the children need to be kept somewhere until their destination is figured out. I prefer them in plain sight.
As to the taking over of somebody else’s spot: that appears to be the way of mankind throughout history. Does not make it right, of course, but are there any original nations? The US gave sovereignity to the local tribes, and there definitely was the breaking of deals, but they remain sovereign nations in sovereign states. What exactly happened to the Anasazi?
Both sets of my grandparents came here as refugees. Sponsored by family and friends and supported by them until they could make a go of it on their own. My father was born in a wooden granary where the whole family lived (he was youngest of 5 children). In winter they parked a wagon loaded with tumbleweeds to help block the wind as the granary was so full of cracks and holes. I’m so thankful that my family was able to come to Canada.
A long time ago, Roscuro commented the unfairness of slave descendants not knowing their ancestery, which is unfortunate but not that unusual. I don’t know mine beyond my grandparents and know little of them. It is said the paternals came across in the early years (Thomas Dudley and the ilk), The maternals came from Canada to Louisiana but before that: I suspect France (with a name like Verret). But they all came from somewhere.
Mumsee, you have names, which is more than slave descendants do, since slaves were assigned new names.
I was told, on the occasion Mumsee will remember, that having exited my own country and entered another, I had no rights. I often think of that statement when I see insistence that those who enter any given country by unofficial means are criminals breaking the law. If the law does not apply to the protection of someone who crossed a border, how can it justly be applied to their manner of entry? If those seeking entry are expected to have obeyed the law as if they were a citizen, but told, even on entering legally (NB: claiming asylum is legal), that they have no rights because they are not citizens, then it is an unequal application of the law.
K, Paul also tells us to “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves” (II Corinthians 12:35); and the writer of Hebrews 10:24 says to “consider how to stir up one another to love and good works”.
Roscuro, I expected to see you quote that verse. That is a supporting verse for my volunteer efforts and financial support of Christian Library International. It is my way to visit the prisoners and help them. That is what I have felt called to do. Does one ministry take a greater place of importance than another? Is it helpful to look at someone and think that because they aren’t involved in a certain ministry that Jesus will say, “I never knew you?” By helping with a prison ministry, I am helpin.g poor children. I think it is easy to judge people by works when people focus so much on social justice and give it greater weight than other things in the Bible. I have two friends who are Democrats who tend to do that. Yet they think abortion is fine.
Janice, I have not seen Roscuro judging you. She is talking in generalities. My argument is we have no business thinking the world will do the right thing. We can encourage each other by talking of our ministries as options or things we have seen as options. I have always been encouraged by your prison ministry and have thought if there was a way for me to get involved in that here. But not at this time.
Roscuro, your generalities are a bit general. Our government is doing what it does and we vote for our leaders. We then put our feet to the ground and do what we can.
The idea that Europe could use its structures is reasonable, though a lot of them are in disrepair and would require tremendous renovation. Might be cheaper to put them all in the hotels. But then, they would not be supervised and huge issues would arise. In fact, in the historic structures they would not be supervised. A lot of evil has taken place behind closed doors and I firmly believe they have seen enough.
Mumsee, it was a question, not a generality. The argument that those who cross borders unofficially are criminals is not one confined to issues in your country. I have seen Canadians use the same argument about asylum seekers here, and also from Europeans. It is a real question, are those entering unofficially really doing anything illegal if they are not considered to be under the protection of the law they are said to be breaking?
A good deal of those historical buildings are used as tourist attractions and are fairly well maintained. I wasn’t thinks ng if castle ruins. While building a do present some dangers, humans do not generally live in the open air, not for very long.
Crossing borders: seems to me, if you are going to a country, you need to be aware of the laws that apply to you. Entry into the country would be applicable. If a neighbor wants my good will, he will knock the first time coming over even if ever after is a walk in.
It is possible, some border guards were being jerks that day, Roscuro.
Janice, what Mumsee said. This duscussion is not about anyone here. As Christians, wee are to remind one another of what we are called to and examining ourselves. I admire your prison ministry, and had no thought of suggesting you personally were not doing enough.
I would gently point out that viewpoints vary widely among Christians, and someone who critiques policies regarding refugees and asylum seekers on Scriptural grounds is not automatically endorsing the viewpoints if those who perhaps also voice critiques on the same subject but hold different convictions on other things such as abortion. I know that social justice is a buzzword these days, but I had never heard the term before starting to read World, and World always portrayed it in a negative light. Whatever viewpoints I hold are not the result of a liberal public school education, as I never attended public school. By the time I attended college and then university, I was an adult, fully capable of thinking for myself. I actually started reading World’s blog, and this group’s comments on it as I was taking my first nursing program and began commenting the year after I graduated. I am not a liberal thinker and never have been, so do not assume that I am approaching these questions the same way your liberal friends and acquaintances are. I was raised conservative, and as the homeschooling materials were usually from American sources, such as ABeka and Bob Jones University, I was unconsciously favorable towards the things generally associated with American conservatism, such as Capitalism, etc. In addition, the conservative adults frequently endorsed American conservative values as being better more favourably than those found in Canada (it may come as a surprise, but conservative Canadians do not consider patriotism _ my country right or wrong – to be a virtue). It was while reading World, that certain aspects of conservatism, such as Capitalism, started to seem questionable, not on ideological grounds, but Biblical ones. I recall an article by World’s resident economist, Alex Tokarev, that stated that child labour in mass manufacturing in developing countries was a key factor in economic development and therefore, developed countries should not discourage child labour from happening in those countries since the developed countries benefitted from such labour in their economic development. The argument shocked me, and I started to search the Scripture, which I have always viewed as the absolute moral authority, to find out why. In those days, my mother was initially concerned about how much time I spent talking on the internet, she having heard if the dangers, until she saw me constantly with an open Bible, looking for the reasons I believed what I believed. My current positions on issues are constantly under revision by Scripture, but I no longer trust either the conservative or liberal (I never trusted the liberal) paradigm to adequately or accurately convey my convictions.
If I could “like” Mumsee’s 7:45, I would.
I may disagree with some of you, but I love all of you.
My favorite professors in Southwestern Seminary were non-dispensationalist.
Civil government has the authority in its realm and that would include, I would think, the setting of borders and laws governing them.
Open borders present a conflict in terms of providing for citizens vs providing now for non-citizens who come with no permission.
As Christians we are called to show compassion and I know many of us have that when it comes to refugees, even those simply seeking a more livable wage and lifestyle. Churches are active in helping those people and I understand that impulse and calling.
But a country’s resources are limited and that’s where civil government has a legitimate role in imposing rules on how many can enter & how the screening process should work.
I’ve always argued (politically) that I wish we could make legal immigration easier (and a faster process); illegal immigration more difficult, or more effectively controlled.
I have just caught up. I had a lovely three hour lunch with my precious friend. Encouraging one another in our Lord….what a sweet blessing. Came home and took a short walk with my neighbor who is rehabbing after knee surgery.
I agree with Chas comment 5:00pm…. 😊
Roscuro, does Scripture say anything about whether or not children can work for money? I’m not arguing in favor of “child labor,” but having seen very extreme views against anything coming even close to the practice, and knowing that poor communities often do include the work of their children, I’m inclined to say that child labor isn’t bad, but abuse of child employees is very bad.
My brothers were all (or most, but possibly all) paperboys, some as early as their pre-teens. Many young people used to mow lawns for pay, or work on family farms just as part of the family. All such work is now discouraged in same way or another, to the benefit of nobody. I’m not at all in favor of children working 12-hour days in poorly lit factories, but that isn’t the only way children can work to help support their families.
Cheryl, since my story was speaking of child labour in dangerous factory conditions, bringing in the topic children working with their families is not really a part of the question. As I recall from the article I mentioned, he argued that the dangerous conditions and child labour in factories in the developing world were part and parcel of economic progress, essentially saying we shouldn’t be requiring safety standards or regulations regarding child labour because we were stunting the abilities of those countries to develop economically. I recall replying in a comment to the effect that requiring safety standards was hardly an innovation of development, as even the law of Moses required a roof to be built with sides to prevent someone falling over.
It was the wider principle the article was arguing for that was concerning as a Christian, as if economic development in capitalism was evolutionary in nature. It made me realize that the philosophical underpinnings of capitalism were as much based on ungodly ideas as I had been taught that communism was. I researched and found it was so, that Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, was no more a Christian than Karl Marx. I lost my digital copy of Smith’s ‘The Wealth of Nations’ when my first ereader broke and have not restored it, but I have read enough of it to make clear that Smith’s ideas were unsound because they were devoid of the idea of responsibility towards one’s neighbour. That was my primary objection to that World economic article, that it was devoid of any sense of responsibility towards others, that we could stand back and let them make the same errors and let children suffer the same way that children did in the Industrial Revolution in the name of development. This was not how I read the command “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” and I could not reconcile the idea of ignoring how the products I bought were made because eventually – a hundred or so years in the future, if the timeline of the Industrial Revolution was any indication – manufacturing conditions would improve ‘naturally’ through economic progress. In the years following that incident, I have come to realize that economic progress alone would never have improved child labour in the Industrial Revolution, and it was rather, people with consciences that stepped in to actively, not passively bring about improvement, so Tokarev’s argument was flawed to begin with.
Wandering Views 
Good morning everyone.
Anyone seen Kim lately?
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Sure is lonesome in here.
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Good morning, all. I was asking about her a couple days ago. No, I have not seen her. Been praying for her though. Kim?
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I know she voted yesterday.
Lovely to wake up to chirping birds. Spring is coming!
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The Real’s question, we typically have a good deal if food in our cupboards and freezers. But there are seven people in the house.
At a certain point, a mass quarantine does not work. There is reason to think that it made things worse in Wuhan, and it certainly did so on the Diamond Princess. There are large numbers of elderly and infirm people who live by themselves, and placing a mass quarantine will result in some of those people being found dead, as has been reported to have happened in Wuhan. Epidemics kill indirectly as well as directly, as was seen during the West Africa Ebola outbreak, when other diseases went untreated due to the preoccupation with Ebola.
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Reading this morning, on BBC, about the children in cages. Apparently five hundred in cages on Lesbos as they were rescued from boats escaping Turkey and headed for Greece. What do people want or expect?
These are not cages, though they are. They are enclosures designed to keep the children as safe as they can under the circumstances. They are not detained as in needing to be processed like an adult but they are kept from wandering the streets of whatever community they end up in, which have predators of all sorts looking for children to take advantage of. They are being fed though not necessarily in the way they want.
Where should these thousands and thousands of children be placed? Leave them to their own devices? Let them drown in the sea crossings or the dessert? Give them away to any takers? Or put them where they can be marginally safe, feed them, try to find relatives, or put them in foster homes eventually?
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OK, I’ll bite. How about homes, Mumsee? Or barring that, orphanages? There are large historical buildings with estates in Europe that stand empty, why not use them to house the children? They won’t do it of course, but they cannot pretend there are not other options to metal cages. To be confined that way is severely damaging to a child’s development, physically and emotionally. The birth rate of Europeans has all but ceased, with whole towns lacking in children, so that nurseries and schools have to be closed, but they cannot find it in them to house the children that flee to their shores.
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Despite the rain, the Birthday Tree has started blooming. Art’s birthday is on the 11th so I hope for full bloom by them. We did not get a storm here yesterday which was a blessing. We saw a bit of sunshine late in the day.
My sore throat seems to have cleared but I am staying home from Bible study and WMU. Some bugs seem gone but return with a whammy. I don’t want to chance giving anyone else an illness. My throat seemed so sore last night that I truly expected it would be bad today.
I talked with my friend Karen finally yesterday. I am really confused by her and a bit hurt. I am turning it all over to God in exchange for His peace.
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Roscuro: of course homes. That would be the ideal, though there is a time requirement as they cannot be instantly placed in homes the moment they touch shore. There is a time of looking for their relatives, checking out possible placements and then, as you said, finding people willing to open their homes.
We have offered but it is not as simple as that. Every home must be inspected and background checks run on every adult occupant of the home. This all takes time. Months of home visits, and reams of paperwork. Some of these children will only be in care a few days until their family is located and arrangements made. Even though many have been in refugee situations for years. It is a challenge.
Orphanages, like mental institutions, were mostly done away with. And one has to wonder. The idea of being in an open area, visible to authorities and peers, seems to be an improvement over the rooms and abuses that often take place in orphanage systems. Ideally, we would all treat each other rightly but then we would not be in this situation. Thousand upon thousands of children.
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Good Morning Birthday tree!! Oh so lovely! ❤️
We shall be in the mid 50’s around here today and I am meeting a precious friend for lunch in town. After a wintry winter I am ready for fresh air and warm breezes! But alas I am a realist and I know our snowiest months are ahead of us. 😳 😂 ⛄️
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Roscuro, in a more compassionate world, your idea would be great. Mumsee is being pragmatic given the world we live in where compassion is lacking. Yes, the children are in a bad situation, but not the worst given what is available. Do you see a way to change the hearts of people to make your idea feasible? Prayer is a great way to begin. After that? Write letters? Write opins for the newspapers? What should people do? It would be wonderful if the wealthy with influence and means changed from the original Scrooges into men (women) with new hearts.
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I wonder if it would be worse? Yes, children fall victim on the streets, but they also survive, and learn, and grow. Once Europe’s streets teemed with such children, born in poverty and obscurity in Europe itself, orphaned by disease, and threatened by disease, malnourishment, and physical danger. But people saw their state, and while the hard hearted condemned them as nuisances and threats to the civil order, enough people with compassion took action to provide those children with education, medical care, and other social supports that their descendants now live in relative prosperity. By hiding the children away from the public eye, it is easy to ignore their needs and leave someone else to take care of it.
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It’s the Happy Birthday tree 🙂
Kim was watching election returns last night. (via FB)
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Children: I suspect the idea with the confinement is to keep them more than just alive and surviving, but keeping them healthy and moving them to relative safety. The death and illness and abuse rate in these “facilities” is much lower than that on the streets. At least from my reading of Dickens, I believe. Then there is the shooting of the children in places like Brazil. An ugly ugly world at times. What does God think???
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Absolutely fascinating— but very long— story about the Spanish flu, yes, but in-depth explanation of how/why/where flu comes from.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/09/29/the-dead-zone
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I am sure God takes note of the empty, opulent estates in Europe, and the children in cages at Lesbos, since not even a sparrow falls without his knowledge. In wartime, even the estates of the wealthy were commandeered to provide housing and hospitalization for those who needed it. But refugees from other shores are not considered worthy of such an ordered response.
Institutions have about as poor a track record of safety as the streets. The residential schools in Canada had an extremely high rate of not only physical and sexual abuse, but also of disease and death – at least 1 in 25 children in the residential schools died as a result (by comparison 1 in 26 Canadian soldiers died in the trenches of WWI). The extensive study of the 100,000 Romanian children placed in institutions and essentially caged under the former oppressive regime showed that children’s brain development is permanently impaired by lack of social interaction: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/06/neglect. The past is simply being repeated.
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https://thehill.com/homenews/news/485896-scientists-in-china-identify-two-types-of-coronavirus
_______________________
Scientists studying the novel coronavirus in China discovered two different varieties of the infection could be spreading around the world.
Researchers at Peking University School of Life Sciences and the Institut Pasteur of Shanghai published a study on Tuesday, identifying a more aggressive type of the virus found in 70 percent of analyzed strains, with 30 percent belonging to a less aggressive variety, according to CNBC.
The study indicated that the more aggressive coronavirus primarily exists at the origin point of the virus in Wuhan, China. Researchers say the frequency of the more vigorous variety has diminished since early January.
The scientists in this study said the newly discovered variety of coronaviruses is most likely a mutation and maneuver of natural selection as the virus spreads and adapts. However, officials caution that the data in this study is still “very limited,” according to the report. …
_________________________
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I suspect the coronavirus thing is a media plague.
In any case, it’s all Trump’s fault.
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Last night my brother called and at the end of the conversation asked if I had done anything about the paper. I said no. He called earlier today. We had a nice conversation. No mention if the paper. Instead of saying bye, he said, “Paper, paper!” I just have to laugh it off. Maybe I should have said, ” Yeah, we’ve got plenty of toilet paper.”
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Roscuro: The cages are not individual isolettes, they are open structures where the children can run and play together but visible so people can know they are not preying on each other as so often happens. There is no connection with the Romanian horrors. And it is temporary, the children are moved on as quickly as can be done with the massive amount of regulations.
Yes, Greece has lots of old homes, many in great disrepair and the requirement of keeping historical authenticity. By putting in those restrictions, a lot is lost as the owners cannot afford to maintain in historic ways. We have become so focused on the forest, we have forgotten the trees.
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DJ, the Spanish flu had two different strains. The first, which circulated first, was less deadly than the second, and the second killed the young and healthy. That is the concern with a widespread virus, that it will mutate once in wide enough circulation and the mortality rate will increase.
Chas, even with incomplete figures, the mortality rate of COVID-19 is about 2% (the Spanish flu had the same mortality rate). Seasonal flu has a mortality rate of about 0.1%. It is not only the high mortality rate that is of concern, but also the fact that no healthcare system, however well managed or funded, can handle as large an influx of critically ill patients as would happen if COVID-19 spreads unchecked (the attempt to limit exposure is less to stop the disease and more to slow transmission to a manageable rate). It is estimated one in five people infected become seriously ill. There is not enough respirators and oxygen supply to treat such a number of patients struggling to breathe. After all, there is already a shortage of surgical masks. Then there is the fact that the country hardest hit by the disease is also the largest manufacturer of many of the supplies the rest of the world needs, and their production is being affected by this outbreak. There are many factors at play that make the disease of concern to the world.
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Roscuro, I know, and that’s what I’ve been concerned about — these viruses mutate. So while there are overreactions, it’s also warranted to be concerned about new “bugs” that appear on the scene and spread so wildly. There’s an unpredictability to them.
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Mumsee, where are you finding the information that the children are being kept there for their protection under observation temporarily until other arrangements can be made? The BBC only has a very short clip on the subject, which does not convey any statement of substance from the authorities about what is being done with the children, and searching does not reveal a longer article on the topic from the BBC.
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Roscuro: I have followed this challenge for years. The children are kept temporarily until stable placement can be found such as relatives or foster homes. These are not refugee encampments where they stay for years. It is a temporary stop gap.
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There are some interesting fact sheets available from the provincial public health on COVID-19, including one on possible animal origins: https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/diseases-and-conditions/infectious-diseases/respiratory-diseases/novel-coronavirus/what-we-know?amp%3Bqid=96685814.
The fact sheet on zoonotic (animal) origins notes the similarity to a coronavirus found in pangolins, something I had seen in headlines. The pangolin, a small, scaly relative of the anteater, is a delicacy (it also has some use in Chinese medicine) in China, where the native pangolin has been hunted to extinction and its consumption banned, but is illegally smuggled from Africa. I have an acquaintance (we have mutual relatives) in an African country who loves animals and word has got out to the locals that he will buy animals to save them. He once obtained a pangolin that was destined, no doubt, for the illegal meat market, which he released into the wild. Human greed can do so much damage to our world.
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Caging children: you can google various questions and get a lot of unpleasant results. But the facts remain. Children are moving along as possible. They are not dying en masse, though that could change if some horrid disease comes through. The few who have died, were quite ill upon arrival and did not get treatment. Not totally shocking considering the enormous numbers being dealt with both on our borders and in Europe.
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‘Human greed can do so much damage to our world’ — as does all manner of sin. Fallen people in a fallen world.
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And creation around us also being affected by the fall, disease and pestilence continually hound us.
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Mumsee, it is indeed temporary, as this influx only happened recently, as Turkey is trying to distract the EU from the fact it is actively invading Syria. I read predictions over a year ago that Turkey would hold back the refugee influx to the EU only so long as it was convenient for them to do so in their relations with the EU. I take leave to doubt that anything permanent is planned for these children. Aid workers to the camps in Greece have already been attacked by mobs who want to stop aid to the refugees.
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dying en masse. that comes from typing while holding a sleeping infant.
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Yes. This is a huge problem and it appears to be much worse in Europe where racism abounds.
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How’s Cheryl feeling today?
Carol decided to buy herself some ‘gifts’ with the money that should have gone to her cell phone bill so she’ll be out of contact through all of March. 😦 She hasn’t done that in a long time, but I guess was due for a relapse. But her health isn’t great and so now I have no easy way just to keep up with her w/phone calls and texts or even an email (though I can still call the front desk to leave a msg for her, I guess, and email the administrator; but no direct contact).
She’s had issues with oozing wounds on her legs which the staff nurse checks, cleans and dresses daily — one looked like it was bringing on an infection so the doctor ordered some antibiotics a week ago or more; those finally just arrived. They’ve also (finally) ordered a wheel chair for her. I may email the administrator up front just to let her know I’m out of direct touch with Carol for now and for them to keep me informed if there’s anything that needs to be passed on.
The kinds of facilities she’s in can be especially vulnerable to the spread of viruses.
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DJ, the presence of sin in the world is not supposed to be an excuse for indifference, but a spur to action.
Both careless ecological destruction to obtain raw materials and human enslavement, if not to absolute slavery, at least to dangerous and difficult working conditions James’ invective against rich men who defraud those who reap their wealth for them still rings true. The worst atrocities of the last centuries had greed as a motive: King Leopold’s Conogo rubber company maiming and killing millions of Congolese workers for not meeting their quota; Stalin’s greed for the rich farmland of the Ukraine; the Nazi greed for the wealth of their Jewish neighbours, robbing even their dead bodies of their gold teeth. Nearly every factory disaster, from the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire to the collapse of the clothing factory in Bangladesh, has been found to be due to shortcuts in safety made to cut costs. Right now, reports are emerging that China is using the forced labour of interned Uighurs to manufacture Western goods, including the iPhone: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51697800. Turkey is alternately greedy for the lucrative trade with the EU and the gain of territory in Syria, and the Syrians themselves suffer either way. The love of money is the root of all evils.
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*Both careless ecological destruction to obtain raw materials and human enslavement, if not to absolute slavery, at least to dangerous and difficult working conditions, are due to greed.
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Coronavirus strikes 007
~ ‘No Time To Die’ Release Date Moving To Fall In Hopes Global Theater Biz Back At Full Strength ~
I hadn’t thought about how this is impacting theater-going; the economic and cultural disruption the virus is causing is also an ongoing (and not a minor) concern.
Long Beach has the grand prix coming up in April which is a massive weekend-long event that brings hundreds of thousands to the city. Wondering? At some point, it’s probably too late to postpone or cancel these kinds of events that have been in the planning stages for weeks or months already.
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No one is ‘excusing’ sin, roscuro.
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hmmmm
~ Los Angeles-area officials declare emergency after confirming six new coronavirus cases over 48 hours ~
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~ (Dr. Barbara Ferrer, director of the County of Los Angeles Public Health Department) also said people should keep their distance from one another in public settings and may want to use “verbal salutations in place of handshakes and hugs.” Businesses should also adjust their leave policies, she said. ~
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Husband heading back down. They want that boy out of there. Daughter will need to go spend forty eight hours in with him and sis in law is not comfortable with one year old and twin girl on oxygen for forty eight hours. They want boy home by Sunday. Her husband gets in Monday.
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Speaking of movies, husband always wondered how people continued attending those and sports events and eating out when the economy was so bad. It will be interesting to see how that plays out with illness potential.
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The thing about sin is, well, it “is.” It underlies everything that’s wrong with us and that’s wrong with the world around us. There’s a tendency we all have, I think, to focus on some sins more than others, but we know that it really runs the gamut of all the world’s ills (and our own personal stumbles, day in and day out). We shouldn’t use it to dismiss the evil we see. It’s always a fight we face — and one that we are called to engage in.
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I suppose I have my hands full with my own sins most of the time. But there is a place for engaging the nations and the culture around us as well, of course.
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Exactly. Sin has influenced everything and we cannot expect it not to. Which does not stop us from trying to help in the ways available to us.
I wonder what I would want or expect if I was leaving a difficult life, headed toward what I had been told was “the dream” and needing to cross illegally before throwing myself and children on the mercy of the new country. Expecting to be incarcerated with my children as so often happens in other countries? Expecting to go freely though breaking the law? Expecting my children to be cared for as humanely as possible? Expecting them to be sent to my extended family? Expect them to be released on the street while I was detained? It has to be terribly difficult.
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They probably don’t know any of that, Mumsee. If they’re fleeing their lives, which so many may be doing, they just want out. Based on some of the books I’ve read, they may very well be professional people who have lost their livelihoods and are being threatened. I cannot imagine what they must be fleeing if taking such a chance seems the best option.
For many, just getting safely out of their countries (would that include Turkey?) is preferable to whatever they are leaving behind.
It’s a horror for all involved.
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Indeed.
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Did out ancestors consider whether they were breaking the treaties made with the First Nations/Native Americans when they came to North America and settled on land the treaties recognized as belong to the First Nations? It wasn’t just First Nations who suffered from broken treaties, as the story of the Acadians, known as Cajuns in the southern US, bears witness.
The former pastor of the city church was a Cajun, and often joked he had just returned to his homeland. As a descendant of the settlers who moved into what was then Acadia, now Nova Scotia, after many of the Acadians were forcibly moved out, I once, half seriously, half humourously, apologized to him for what his people suffered. He often spoke about welcoming the refugee and immigrant – to him, it was personal.
Nova Scotia has been learning from its past. Many in that province stepped forward to sponsor Syrian refugee families, and one such family, confectioners, has already paid
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I think we all truly want the best for those many children. We can all agree on that. Talking all day about their needs does not provide for them. In your opinion, Roscuro, who exactly needs to be acting on their behalf to provide what you are suggesting? Noticing and complaining and pointing fingers at people without any proposed solutions is vanity as Solomon would say. He also says that there is nothing new under the sun. And we are told that the poor will always be with us. Are you feeling a call from God to start a Christian mission to help the children? People on this blog are mostly older and have already chosen mission fields they support. There are too many needs and resources are limited. Everyone here that I know of has compassionate hearts. We just don’t all jump on the same bandwagon.
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…back by forming a very successful business, called Peace by Chocolate. The family recently became Canadian citizens, as not a few of the refugees have decided to do. Tragically, another refugee family welcomed into Nova Scotia suffered a terrible tragedy a year ago, and the nation still mourns with them: https://www.macleans.ca/society/the-story-of-the-syrian-family-that-lost-seven-children-in-a-tragic-fire/.
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Michelle said, in different words, what I was about to say. that is:
“Whatever is there is better than what is here. I’m leaving.”
The problem for us is that there are too many of them in the world. They all want to come to America. If not that, Europe will do.
Then they will make America like it is there.
The downtrodden people of the world outnumber us. We cannot allow people to come here without proper immigration procedures.
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Janice, Mumsee asked a question, which she intended to create a discussion, and I answered and we have been discussing it as she wanted. My comment about human greed, incidentally, was not even tied originally to Mumsee’s discussion but to the discussion about COVID-19.
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Chas, would that argument stand in the highest court of all?
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Janice, I have very little with which to build anything. I have already broken my health in mission work. I am currently the only member of my household with regular employment and I am payment ng back a student debt, so my financial resources are very limited. I have one thing left to me to help the cause of those less fortunate, and that is my words.
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Roscuro, when you mentioned opulent estates in Europe I took it as a labeling of people as being greedy because they do not share that property with the less fortunate. Is greed not the problem there?
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Migrants: the USA has a good share of legal migrants from all around the world. Many have made the adjustments necessary and have done very well. Many have brought family members over to join in and begin new lives. All well and good., we have numerous feel good stories on that account. They are welcome. And they want others to be able to come in and start new as well. But many of those successful ones do not want, and are quite vocal about it, people to come in illegally and break the rules. It makes their lives more difficult as well as everybody else’s.
For my part, I welcome anybody to come in legally, expecting that people with clear criminal intent or past behaviour will be excluded.
My concern is the many number of people, especially children, in the refugee systems around the world. And especially those separated from their families. Many many many of the children, according to the border patrol website, are unaccompanied minors. We see the same in other countries. What is to be done for these children in a broken world? Leave them to their own devices? Keep them safe until homes can be found? Send them back?
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Janice, it was not the first thing in my mind when I spoke about the eatates. Actually, I was recalling the words of a British Anglican priest from several years ago when the refugee camp in Calais was a hot topic who challenged those who tried to make the excuse of a housing shortage as a reason not to allow more refugees, by suggesting that England’s historical sites could be turned into housing if necessary. It is a challenge I have often pondered since. I love history, and the marks it has left upon our landscapes, but am I willing to see those landmarks go if it means others will be helped? After all, those historical landmarks are certainly going to be destroyed by fire, and it is what we did for the people in this world that are the questions the Lord will ask us at the end.
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Mumsee, as World has been regularly reporting, the options for refugees to come are steadily decreasing, and it is well known that certain of the incumbent president’s advisors are against the entry of more refugees (I get this from World, not the left wing media).
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Phos
Yes.
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Chas, where in the Bible is that argument based?
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I think at the end we have to acknowledge our faith in Jesus Christ as our only hope for getting into heaven. The things we do over and above that will get us rewards in heaven. I have not been a Christian as long as others here so if I have missed something about the faith, please let me know.
I realize faith is dead without works, but God gives assignments to people. We should not feel guilted into taking on things He did not call us to. We can get too diffused by taking on too much and lose effectiveness. In fact, I have been thinking of how to concentrate giving to the most important that God reveals as my mission field.
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Janice, I have been making reference to, among other passages, the parable of the sheep and the goats in the gospel of Matthew (25):
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat;
I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you took care of Me;
I was in prison and you visited Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
“And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’ Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
For I was hungry
and you gave Me nothing to eat;
I was thirsty
and you gave Me nothing to drink;
I was a stranger
and you didn’t take Me in;
I was naked
and you didn’t clothe Me,
sick and in prison
and you didn’t take care of Me.’
“Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
“Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
As Jesus says elsewhere in Matthew, “You will know them by their fruits.” John the Apostle later summed up the two passages with the words in his first epistle, “Whoever has the good things of the world, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion, how can the love of God dwell in him?”
By the way, I have not written to target criticism at any here. In the spirit of debate, I had thought we were speaking of general concepts, not making personal critiques.
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Phos
In the Old Testament, God had Israel drive out and kill all the inhabitants of the land to which he established Israel.
In the New Testament, Jesus opened salvation to all men who would believe. He had nothing to say about how a government in formed, nor managed.
There will be a time when all nations are governed by Christ. And all people will know Him.
But i believe that America (USA) is unique in the world with a constitution that assures freedom and justice to all it’s citizens.
Thought neither Jesus, nor Paul had anything to say about how government should be run, I think both would agree that the concept of freedom for all is the best.
That concept has been adopted to some extent by other nations. But not by most.
The {one nation, under God) is unique in the world and we should be careful to prevent it from becoming like the rest of the world.
We welcome the unfortunate and downtrodden.
But under our rules. We don’t want hordes of people invading our country with the intent of making it like the one the left.
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Just trying to solve the world’s problems. In this case, what about the children? In my view, the US is doing about the best, with our limitations, we an do. I have not seen any viable improvements. Even with an extensive foster system or orphanage facility, the children need to be kept somewhere until their destination is figured out. I prefer them in plain sight.
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As to the taking over of somebody else’s spot: that appears to be the way of mankind throughout history. Does not make it right, of course, but are there any original nations? The US gave sovereignity to the local tribes, and there definitely was the breaking of deals, but they remain sovereign nations in sovereign states. What exactly happened to the Anasazi?
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Chas, we feel that way about Idaho.
Government: God calls it good or at least beneficial.
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Both sets of my grandparents came here as refugees. Sponsored by family and friends and supported by them until they could make a go of it on their own. My father was born in a wooden granary where the whole family lived (he was youngest of 5 children). In winter they parked a wagon loaded with tumbleweeds to help block the wind as the granary was so full of cracks and holes. I’m so thankful that my family was able to come to Canada.
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My husband and I are both sick now, though I’m feeling better than I did yesterday. I’ve read the whole thread but just jumped in to give an update.
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Romans 13.
A long time ago, Roscuro commented the unfairness of slave descendants not knowing their ancestery, which is unfortunate but not that unusual. I don’t know mine beyond my grandparents and know little of them. It is said the paternals came across in the early years (Thomas Dudley and the ilk), The maternals came from Canada to Louisiana but before that: I suspect France (with a name like Verret). But they all came from somewhere.
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Paul also tells us we can give all we possess to poor, still not have love and gain nothing. Only God knows our hearts.
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Mumsee, you have names, which is more than slave descendants do, since slaves were assigned new names.
I was told, on the occasion Mumsee will remember, that having exited my own country and entered another, I had no rights. I often think of that statement when I see insistence that those who enter any given country by unofficial means are criminals breaking the law. If the law does not apply to the protection of someone who crossed a border, how can it justly be applied to their manner of entry? If those seeking entry are expected to have obeyed the law as if they were a citizen, but told, even on entering legally (NB: claiming asylum is legal), that they have no rights because they are not citizens, then it is an unequal application of the law.
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K, Paul also tells us to “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves” (II Corinthians 12:35); and the writer of Hebrews 10:24 says to “consider how to stir up one another to love and good works”.
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Roscuro, I expected to see you quote that verse. That is a supporting verse for my volunteer efforts and financial support of Christian Library International. It is my way to visit the prisoners and help them. That is what I have felt called to do. Does one ministry take a greater place of importance than another? Is it helpful to look at someone and think that because they aren’t involved in a certain ministry that Jesus will say, “I never knew you?” By helping with a prison ministry, I am helpin.g poor children. I think it is easy to judge people by works when people focus so much on social justice and give it greater weight than other things in the Bible. I have two friends who are Democrats who tend to do that. Yet they think abortion is fine.
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Cheryl, feel better — I’ve been writing about coronavirus all day now. I feel a cough coming on …
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Janice, I have not seen Roscuro judging you. She is talking in generalities. My argument is we have no business thinking the world will do the right thing. We can encourage each other by talking of our ministries as options or things we have seen as options. I have always been encouraged by your prison ministry and have thought if there was a way for me to get involved in that here. But not at this time.
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Roscuro, your generalities are a bit general. Our government is doing what it does and we vote for our leaders. We then put our feet to the ground and do what we can.
The idea that Europe could use its structures is reasonable, though a lot of them are in disrepair and would require tremendous renovation. Might be cheaper to put them all in the hotels. But then, they would not be supervised and huge issues would arise. In fact, in the historic structures they would not be supervised. A lot of evil has taken place behind closed doors and I firmly believe they have seen enough.
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Mumsee, it was a question, not a generality. The argument that those who cross borders unofficially are criminals is not one confined to issues in your country. I have seen Canadians use the same argument about asylum seekers here, and also from Europeans. It is a real question, are those entering unofficially really doing anything illegal if they are not considered to be under the protection of the law they are said to be breaking?
A good deal of those historical buildings are used as tourist attractions and are fairly well maintained. I wasn’t thinks ng if castle ruins. While building a do present some dangers, humans do not generally live in the open air, not for very long.
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Sorry, I was disjointed. Talking about taking other folks’ property and using it for the children is more of a general solution.
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Crossing borders: seems to me, if you are going to a country, you need to be aware of the laws that apply to you. Entry into the country would be applicable. If a neighbor wants my good will, he will knock the first time coming over even if ever after is a walk in.
It is possible, some border guards were being jerks that day, Roscuro.
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Janice, what Mumsee said. This duscussion is not about anyone here. As Christians, wee are to remind one another of what we are called to and examining ourselves. I admire your prison ministry, and had no thought of suggesting you personally were not doing enough.
I would gently point out that viewpoints vary widely among Christians, and someone who critiques policies regarding refugees and asylum seekers on Scriptural grounds is not automatically endorsing the viewpoints if those who perhaps also voice critiques on the same subject but hold different convictions on other things such as abortion. I know that social justice is a buzzword these days, but I had never heard the term before starting to read World, and World always portrayed it in a negative light. Whatever viewpoints I hold are not the result of a liberal public school education, as I never attended public school. By the time I attended college and then university, I was an adult, fully capable of thinking for myself. I actually started reading World’s blog, and this group’s comments on it as I was taking my first nursing program and began commenting the year after I graduated. I am not a liberal thinker and never have been, so do not assume that I am approaching these questions the same way your liberal friends and acquaintances are. I was raised conservative, and as the homeschooling materials were usually from American sources, such as ABeka and Bob Jones University, I was unconsciously favorable towards the things generally associated with American conservatism, such as Capitalism, etc. In addition, the conservative adults frequently endorsed American conservative values as being better more favourably than those found in Canada (it may come as a surprise, but conservative Canadians do not consider patriotism _ my country right or wrong – to be a virtue). It was while reading World, that certain aspects of conservatism, such as Capitalism, started to seem questionable, not on ideological grounds, but Biblical ones. I recall an article by World’s resident economist, Alex Tokarev, that stated that child labour in mass manufacturing in developing countries was a key factor in economic development and therefore, developed countries should not discourage child labour from happening in those countries since the developed countries benefitted from such labour in their economic development. The argument shocked me, and I started to search the Scripture, which I have always viewed as the absolute moral authority, to find out why. In those days, my mother was initially concerned about how much time I spent talking on the internet, she having heard if the dangers, until she saw me constantly with an open Bible, looking for the reasons I believed what I believed. My current positions on issues are constantly under revision by Scripture, but I no longer trust either the conservative or liberal (I never trusted the liberal) paradigm to adequately or accurately convey my convictions.
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Wise woman.
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If I could “like” Mumsee’s 7:45, I would.
I may disagree with some of you, but I love all of you.
My favorite professors in Southwestern Seminary were non-dispensationalist.
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Civil government has the authority in its realm and that would include, I would think, the setting of borders and laws governing them.
Open borders present a conflict in terms of providing for citizens vs providing now for non-citizens who come with no permission.
As Christians we are called to show compassion and I know many of us have that when it comes to refugees, even those simply seeking a more livable wage and lifestyle. Churches are active in helping those people and I understand that impulse and calling.
But a country’s resources are limited and that’s where civil government has a legitimate role in imposing rules on how many can enter & how the screening process should work.
I’ve always argued (politically) that I wish we could make legal immigration easier (and a faster process); illegal immigration more difficult, or more effectively controlled.
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I have just caught up. I had a lovely three hour lunch with my precious friend. Encouraging one another in our Lord….what a sweet blessing. Came home and took a short walk with my neighbor who is rehabbing after knee surgery.
I agree with Chas comment 5:00pm…. 😊
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Roscuro, does Scripture say anything about whether or not children can work for money? I’m not arguing in favor of “child labor,” but having seen very extreme views against anything coming even close to the practice, and knowing that poor communities often do include the work of their children, I’m inclined to say that child labor isn’t bad, but abuse of child employees is very bad.
My brothers were all (or most, but possibly all) paperboys, some as early as their pre-teens. Many young people used to mow lawns for pay, or work on family farms just as part of the family. All such work is now discouraged in same way or another, to the benefit of nobody. I’m not at all in favor of children working 12-hour days in poorly lit factories, but that isn’t the only way children can work to help support their families.
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Cheryl, since my story was speaking of child labour in dangerous factory conditions, bringing in the topic children working with their families is not really a part of the question. As I recall from the article I mentioned, he argued that the dangerous conditions and child labour in factories in the developing world were part and parcel of economic progress, essentially saying we shouldn’t be requiring safety standards or regulations regarding child labour because we were stunting the abilities of those countries to develop economically. I recall replying in a comment to the effect that requiring safety standards was hardly an innovation of development, as even the law of Moses required a roof to be built with sides to prevent someone falling over.
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It was the wider principle the article was arguing for that was concerning as a Christian, as if economic development in capitalism was evolutionary in nature. It made me realize that the philosophical underpinnings of capitalism were as much based on ungodly ideas as I had been taught that communism was. I researched and found it was so, that Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, was no more a Christian than Karl Marx. I lost my digital copy of Smith’s ‘The Wealth of Nations’ when my first ereader broke and have not restored it, but I have read enough of it to make clear that Smith’s ideas were unsound because they were devoid of the idea of responsibility towards one’s neighbour. That was my primary objection to that World economic article, that it was devoid of any sense of responsibility towards others, that we could stand back and let them make the same errors and let children suffer the same way that children did in the Industrial Revolution in the name of development. This was not how I read the command “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” and I could not reconcile the idea of ignoring how the products I bought were made because eventually – a hundred or so years in the future, if the timeline of the Industrial Revolution was any indication – manufacturing conditions would improve ‘naturally’ through economic progress. In the years following that incident, I have come to realize that economic progress alone would never have improved child labour in the Industrial Revolution, and it was rather, people with consciences that stepped in to actively, not passively bring about improvement, so Tokarev’s argument was flawed to begin with.
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