77 thoughts on “Our Daily Thread 2-26-18”

  2. I see that last night Bob Jones University and Pensacola Christian were mentioned. Pensacola Christian? I have no issue with them. K-11 the school I attended used the Abeka Program from PC. All of our Bible class material came from them. I think I got a good education K-about 7th or 8th grade. That is when the Bob Jones regime came in. ALL of our new teachers were from Bob Jones. Thus the reason I left the church for a number of years. The list of what we couldn’t do was way longer than what we could do or so I assume since they never told I what we could do. I really do think I suffered trauma from attending that school. Oh there were plenty of contributing factors, many caused by my alcoholic mother, but those so called Christians never spoke a kind word to me or assured me that things could get better.
    Things have gotten better in my life, but I wouldn’t darken the doors of First Independent Methodist if you paid me.

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  3. MY, Kim is up early.
    I used to work with some Bob Jones students.
    They were good guys, but I wouldn’t wan to attend their school.
    Especially if I were female. They had so many rules.
    “Barefoot and pregnant” was a term often used in thosee days.

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  4. Good evening all. This Monday evening I got some things together in a bag to grab in case of a large earthquake. Others may laugh, but when an earthquake comes there is no warning nor time to get anything together. I already felt one this evening. It is reassuring to have some things ready. Last night I was awakened at 3:45am. I am not very clear headed at that hour.
    Good night.

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  5. Our Pastor has been teaching on hermeneutics (Biblical interpretation) the last few weeks. Yesterday, to make a point, he put the following on the board and asked if anyone knew what it referred to. No one did. Do any of you?
    Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start

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  7. i Corinthians I 10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
    2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified
    3: 10 I have laid the foundation,But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
    i haven’t heard much about Pensacola Church. But wherever the Gospel is preached, I’m for it.

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  8. Continuing this train of thought.
    Many say we need “another Billy Graham” an evangelist to wake up America.
    I disagree. We need an Elijah. A prophet. We need to turn completely around.
    problem is, so many young people have been indoctrinated so that could become Christians and still believe that it’s ok to kill their babies or have two men marry each other.
    The argument is always conducted in the area of ethics, not righteousness.

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  9. My condolences Linda. I certainly don’t mean to offend anyone who attended Bob Jones, but my experience with that “flavor” of Christianity made my life a living hell for a period of time.
    I was so miserable that, yes, suicide did enter my mind. Luckily for me I had the ability to think it through. If I killed myself THEY would win and not even care. Just going back to the time in my brain depresses me. It makes my throat and chest tight. Oh, and the few things they did to “protect” me had me believing I was a loser and there was no use in trying. In any competition I entered I was always the “bridesmaid, never the bride”. That way I wouldn’t be embarrassed when my mother showed up drunk. I spend many a dollar in therapy figuring out that I was “good enough”.

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  10. No offense taken. I share your views about BJU. I don’t even put it on my resume (which my employer shares with potential clients, since we are a consulting company). I don’t want anyone to think I am of that ilk, and since they make the news from time to time, it could be a real deal-killer.

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  11. Interesting (and unfortunate) how churches and church people can leave negative impacts on us. I remember my mom telling me how chilly my SS teacher was at the Hollywood Baptist Church when I was little, she said we’d see him on the bus and he’d barely acknowledge us, just a grim, rigid sort of guy. She always wanted to find a gentler, kinder Christianity but we tended to stick with the Baptists (though American, not Southern, Baptists).

    Those were probably the years when Fundamentalism was reigning in many Protestant corners with, as Kim noted, its overly long ‘thou-shalt-not-do’ lists.

    I suspect more recently the evangelical movement has been off-putting for many with its over-reliance and stress on politics?

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  12. OK,

    So now we’ve established that no one likes Bob Jones and why.

    Now what about Pensacola? Why should they be avoided?

    I only wonder because they send my daughter college info all the time.

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  13. I have no idea whether BJU or PCC is more legalist, but most definitely both have their legalisms. One brother graduated from BJU, and that same brother took my younger sister to both colleges when she was a teenager because he wanted her to go to one of them. Two nieces (born to two others of my brothers) graduated from PCC–one met her first husband there. (“First husband” because that was the first divorce in our family in 100 years except for one uncle on my dad’s side who I may or may not have ever met.) One other nephew went to PCC for a year and couldn’t handle the legalism.

    At BJU (at least when my sister visited, but that would have been 30 years ago), when a girl gets up from the table, all the boys have to stand up when she gets up and I think again when she returns. My sister says the effect is that girls don’t dare get up from the table, because it’s rude to inconvenience the boys to that degree, and who wants to call that much attention to herself just to get a little ketchup? Another brother moved in the 1990s to Greenville, with the idea of working for a while to earn some money and then attending BJU. He worked at the Taco Bell just up or down the street from BJU, and thus waited on many of their students. He said the students wouldn’t look him in the eye, and the girls would put the money on the counter so as not to touch a man’s hand–which he found rude and insulting. He ended up deciding that what he saw in those students was “fear of man,” and since Scripture says, “Perfect love casts out fear,” he didn’t want to attend a college that was instilling it. (Funny thing is, that brother had always been fearful, by his own admission, but during that time period he realized that wasn’t a good thing.)

    When my sister visited PCC, she discovered that girls were supposed to stay dressed in dresses and pantyhose until 8:00 at night, even in the dorms!! (I’m not sure the exact time, but something like that.) She found out that how some of them got around that rule was creative. They would wear what they wanted, but other students would give a heads up if the RA was coming, and the girl who was out of dress code would jump into bed and pull up the covers as though she had gone to bed early. When one niece attended, which I think was in the 1990s, the reason she met her husband was that she was next to him in seating in all her art classes (yes, assigned seating in college). Girls had to wear pantyhose unless they had a note from their doctor . . . and if they had a note from their doctor excusing them, then they were not allowed to wear hose, even for dress-up occasions. Boys and girls were not allowed to touch under any circumstances, and my brother (her father) asked her, “What if a girl is falling down the stairs?” My niece said, “Dad, you better let her fall.”

    The father of the other niece who graduated from PCC (and also the father of the nephew who decided one year was enough) has told me a couple of times that PCC has a great nursing program, because our younger daughter wants to go into nursing. PCC is quite low-cost, but I have not even passed on the recommendation. Our girl would hate it there, and I could not wish it on her, even to get a nursing degree. Me, I probably could have just laughed at the stupider rules, but it would affect the spirit of the student body, too, just like it did at BJU. (My brother who graduated from there did well there. He opened a pizza restaurant and just laughed about the silly rules. When my sister visited him, he saw a professor heading his way and grabbed my sister’s hand. The prof laughed and said, “I know that’s your sister.” But my brother was already in his mid-20s when he went there. But he also isn’t the emotionally healthiest of my brothers, so it’s hard to say whether it did him more good or harm.)

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  14. I only know Pensacola Christian from a distance. They are my ex-husband’s largest account so for that reason I am inclined to like them.
    I believe Mumsee would be better able to tell you about them. I know that one of her children graduated from there and another attended a Summer Program.
    I think one of my agents is married to the President or something. I will check it out. I do know from an educational standpoint the Abeka system of education was good when I was in school.

    Now, the benefits of sending her to PC would be warm weather, nearness to the beach, and ME.

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  15. AJ, I was writing my post before you asked your question, so I wasn’t writing it in answer, but I think it does answer it. Get hold of a current student life guide if you can, and see what current rules are. Me, I don’t think there is anything wrong in a campus having rules for the kids, not drinking for example (most will be underage anyway, and college student drinking can really cause problems). I had a dress code when I went to college, and didn’t find it a problem. But when it gets super legalistic, like dresses have to come past the elbow or you have to abide by the dress code even in your dorm room, then run.

    One of my nieces graduated quite recently, in the last five years. I haven’t talked to her about whether she liked it (I have only seen her once in the last six or eight years), but it’s her brother who went for a year within that same time period and fled, so it would seem likely they are still super-strict, though whether they still have assigned seating and the like, I don’t know. That would have driven me nuts, personally. I had one evening school class that had assigned seating, and we students (who didn’t have it in our day classes) humored the prof and sat where he told us to. But the second semester of the class (it was Spanish) he changed it up back to front, and had us sit in new assigned seats, and we didn’t do it. He would return our papers and tests by putting them facedown on the seat he had assigned us, and we would look at the top of the paper (enough to see the person’s name) and pass it to the person whose it was. Well, I was 22 when I went to college, had been living on my own and working full-time before I went to college, I was working to put myself through college, and I would not have appreciated being treated like a grade-school child.

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  16. Well, looks like I have two things to comment on already today.
    First, I read an article on BBC on the wealth disparity in America. Do you care? If so, why?

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  17. Pensacola Christian College and BJU complaining time again. I have said it before and I will say it again. PCC has an excellent homeschool program. We have used predominately ABeka for about thirty years now. Our children tend to be well educated in comparison to the public schools but not so well educated as compared to a more rigorous educational time. They can not read The Iliad in the original, for example. They cannot write their papers in Latin and Greek. But they have generally scored in the top with the standardized testing and SAT;s. ACT;s, and ASVAB or whatever the military one is called. They have gotten into the colleges of their choices.

    As to PCC itself, all universities and colleges have their rules and regulations and lack thereof. By the time somebody is ready for college, they probably don’t need to be a snowflake. They should be looking where they can get the best education and maintain or, better, grow in their spiritual development. PCC has rules but they are not salvation rules, simply behavior rules. If you can’t follow the rules, don’t go. If you can and want the education and the very reasonable price tag, go. When my children went there, a girl falling down the stairs would have been in the girls stairwell and the other girls should have caught her. My daughter was able to wear nylons for the five years she went. She learned good things. She had a job as a nurse before her graduation and was debt free. The hospital flew her out for interviews and had her in the bag during the final semester. She is still good friends with girls she met there and has her faith, husband, and children.

    Son went and did not totally abide by the rules and was an RA. He developed a disdain for the place but went and got an excellent computer science degree, finished debt free and had a job with the Olympics upon graduation. Some nepotism was involved in getting the job but his brain and education worked to keep the job, which carried on for several Olympics and several interesting assignments before he decided to work in a more normal work environment. Though he still flies all over the world a lot and does interesting things in his work. I think God is still working there.

    Another son also went there but, at sixteen, was not ready to work. He did learn to juggle. He transferred to Embry Riddle in Arizona, dropped out, went in the military to pay it back, went on to get his Master’s and is embracing his faith and wife and living well.

    Another son went to the Uof I, found it to unfocused, went to Embry Riddle. Graduated and continues his military service. He guides his family in the Lord. He did not appreciate his roomie at ER having his girlfriend living in the room but that was part of the program.

    Another son got to us with a third grade education but was determined to learn. Through ABeka, he managed to get through high school, get a diploma, get a job, and then get accepted into the military with a good ASVAB score within five years.

    Another daughter did ABeka, got accepted at Boise State, worked as a CNA and then detoured into the Navy with a very high ASVAB score and SAT scores.

    And I could go on but the point is, you get what you put into it. Yes, some schools have rules that are peculiar, but if they offer you a good education and won’t jeopardize your faith more than necessary, and you can get out debt free, why not?

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  18. Wealth disparity is none of the government’s business.

    Cheryl, that (entering when you are more mature) is one of the effects of veterans going to college. Twenty-two year old guys aren’t going to tolerate much hazing. Especially from younger guys who haven’t been anywhere.

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  20. Wealth disparity: is it any body’s business? Why would people care how much somebody else has, other than to see that all we can are warm and fed? It cannot possibly be any of my business how much another person has.

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  22. Donna, I thought there was nothing more ridiculous than seeing a girl with factory made tear in her jeans. But it made me more comfortable wearing my worn-out jeans.

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  23. Morning! Warmer temps today and tomorrow….and that photo up there is so gorgeous!! Making me miss the Midwest!!
    Wealth disparity seems to be on the minds of many these days…it would seem some feel that if one has “too much” they should be mandated to give it to the one who does not have much…even though the one who does not have much perhaps isn’t compelled to get out there and make more as long as the guy who has too much should be forced to hand it over! The entitled attitudes of some is shocking to me…”I don’t have to work and you owe me” seems to be a pervasive thought these days….sorry but we have them standing on every corner with cardboard signs around this region….and our law enforcement officers plead with the public to not give them money. We have several agencies in the area who can adequately meet the immediate needs of those who find themselves in a dire situation….

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  25. Years ago, a friend who went to a small Bible college remarked on some of the legalism (although it wasn’t quite as legalistic as some of what has been discussed above). One example he used was that during the late 60s and early 70s, “midi skirts” were not allowed. (I think long skirts and skirts that came to just below the knee were okay.)

    For those not familiar with the term, a midi (or was it spelled middi?) skirt came down to the middle of a women’s calf/shin, so it was a very modest look. The problem, though, was that the look was also popular during that time, and anything popular or in style was considered bad in some way.

    It’s almost funny, in the absurdity of it, but not really.

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  26. I don’t know how strict it is, but College of the Ozarks (Point Lookout, Missouri, down near Branson) is a good Christian school that doesn’t charge tuition. Instead, students work their way through college. I know of a couple fo people who attended, but don’t know what they thought of it (children of old friends). Here is more info if you’re interested: https://www.cofo.edu/

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  28. Kim, a dog park regular is moving to South Carolina (near Hilton Head? One of those 55+ communities). Since her house is being built (and her townhouse here has sold already) she’ll be meandering across country, taking her time to get to her new place w/her bird dog Cody. She told me she’ll be staying with friends in a town called Lillian (?) in Alabama, they’re apparently well off as they have something like 10 acres along the bay & a 9,000 square-foot house; she’ll get to stay in their “guest” apartment. Husband is in the oil business.

    Anyway, I told her to look up Fairhope sometime when she’s there, sounded like it wouldn’t be far away.

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  29. Mumsee, students need to know “what they’re getting into” and whether or not it fits them. For my younger daughter, PCC would be a horrible fit. She’s my adventure girl. She’d either break the rules (maybe on purpose) and get kicked out, or she would leave voluntarily. She’s a good Christian girl; she just would not thrive in such an environment. Nor would my sister (when she was college age). If I had chosen to go there, I could have sucked it up and handled the rules. Well, being expected to be in dresses and pantyhose till late in the evening, I couldn’t have handled that well, because I could not have studied comfortably dressed like that. Touch is a “thing” for me, and I don’t tend to study sitting at a desk on a wooden chair, but lounging on a couch. But if I chose to go to a college with extreme rules, I could have followed them and just figured that’s part of the “cost” of going there.

    My own college had rules that some thought extreme (I personally didn’t think so), but they made it very clear every year that some of the rules were biblical absolutes (think fornication), some were biblically based guidelines that some might agree with and some might not (think forbidding groups of students to have a communion service or having dress codes or not allowing students to drink alcohol), and some were simply community standards to keep students safe or make it easier to live together (think curfew or quiet hours). They clarified that some of the rules weren’t biblical absolutes, and they wouldn’t earn you favor with God, but having committed to follow them, you were conscience bound to keep them anyway, and the community would function better with everyone on the same page.

    But I don’t think it’s being a “snowflake” to say “I’m an adult, and I don’t need to be micromanaged in terms of what time I go to bed or what I wear in my dorm room around members of my own sex.” I don’t think it is helpful to control student lives at that level, and I actually think that at some point it encourages rebellion and sneaking around to break the rules (like the girls who would wear what they wanted in the evening but just be prepared to jump in bed if they needed to). By the time a college is telling you what version of the Bible you are allowed to own or what you are allowed to do over summer break while home with your parents, they are going past their authority. I think that Pensacola’s ban on Facebook is probably wise for their community, and I thought my own college’s ban on TVs in dorm rooms was probably wise. (We had TVs in different lounges around the school, so you could find a place to watch it if you wanted to.) The internet and smart phones has had to have brought all kinds of things into Christian colleges that they would rather not have there, and I understand that would be difficult. (I wrote this a couple of hours ago, but failed to post it, so I don’t know what has been written in the meantime.)

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  31. Yeah, wealth disparity is none of the government’s business (I think that paying higher percentages of one’s income as one makes more money is improper taxation–if you pay a flat rate, you pay more taxes, and you already are likely to use fewer services). We can be concerned about the poor who truly do not have enough to live, but what percentage they make of what rich people make is irrelevant. In fact, if anything they are better off by living around wealthy people, because they are more likely to get some things free (e.g., health care, free food or clothing) and the money they do have can go farther. But deciding that everyone has a right to a certain minimum standard of income, even if they could work but they don’t, isn’t helpful to anyone (the one paying the bill or the one getting the handout).

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  32. As for wealth inequality or disparity, this comes to mind:

    “For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality. As it is written, ‘He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.’ “ (2 Corinthians 8:13-15, NKJV)

    Of course, that isn’t telling the government to meddle in the matter. How are we supposed to do this as the church? In the two churches I’ve belonged to, there have been some who are “well-to-do”, being upper middle class or even “rich”, while others struggled to make a decent living. How literally are we supposed to take this portion of scripture?

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  33. I cannot find the word to describe a sky like that in today’s header picture, where the clouds seem clearly outlined, yet there is a translucent quality to them. Every time I see a sky with clouds like that, I have to get out my camera.

    PCC had a reputation for being more conservative than BJU in my circle (both of them were known for their extremely strict rules for students, such as the much mocked “Bible width” space between dating couples). The family church had staunch KJV-only members who regarded the term ‘textual criticism’ in relation to the Bible as an anathema. So, when BJU acknowledged that textual criticism – which merely means examining all the available manuscripts of a given work in order to clarify any variations between the manuscripts – had its place in Bible translation, PCC hit the roof. At the behest of one of our more rabid KJV-only members, the adult/teen Sunday School once watched a film of a long diatribe from a couple of PCC’s faculty against BJU for changing their stance.

    At the time, I was impressed. Now I realize just how unsound their arguments against textual criticism were – what clinched the matter for me was when I discovered that the Textus Receptus, from which the KJV was translated, was in actual fact as much of a critical text as the Novum Testamentum Graece, from which more modern translations such as the ESV are made. There was extensive literature available on PCC at the back of the church and there was encouragement to attend there if one desired higher education. Thankfully, the cost of PCC was absolutely prohibitive for my low income family. I settled for attending a wholly secular community college (whose student organizations included the standard alternative sexual orientation advocacy groups), and graduated with my faith and personal convictions fully intact. There is a need for sound instruction in theology and hermeneutics for Christians, particularly for (though not limited to) those who are called to instruct others, but training for professions in areas such as the humanities and the sciences need not be from an organization which calls itself Christian.

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  34. I am also curious as to why people in the general population should care what others make. That makes no sense to me. I was curious why such a study would be made other than to put one’s nose into somebody else’s business.

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  35. Fortunately for us, each of our children who went to PCC worked their own way through. We did help our daughter though she reciprocated by coming home from her opportunity to work at the Olympics and live in Greece for the summer to live with our tenant when tenant’s husband went to Iraq. Since tenant has serious mental issues, she more than repaid us.

    But the point of my lengthy monologue was simply to say, you get out of something what you put into it. If you go to a secular college that teaches communism or whatever, you have to take your filters. If you go to a very conservative school, you need to take your filters. No school is perfect. In our case, it was less expensive to let our children go to PCC than to the local state schools. And, since two of them went at sixteen or early seventeen, I did not mind having accountability. And they got excellent starts into the work world, good friends, and an eye opening experience that mom was not the strictest adult on the planet and our view of Christianity was not the only one.

    The ones who went to secular schools did not get any long term friends. The people they did associate with tended to be very into drugs, sex, and alcohol. Those could be found at PCC as well but were not such a heavy focus. They were generally disappointed at not being able to find living Christians in their schools. Seems schools bring in lots of imperfect people. They may even be run by imperfect people and have imperfect employees.

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  36. Mumsee, they don’ care. It’s an issue. Like gun control.
    Always an issue.
    The goal is to make government control everything, as in communism, but they won’t say that.
    This is different because they are all good people.

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  37. Kizzie, exactly how it is written. When someone has a need and you can supply, you supply it and vice versa. The city church I attend has some members who are very high up in the social scale indeed – they are so quiet about their social status, though, that it took me months (years in one case) to find that out – and some members who are on social assistance or were homeless. The pastor often has occasion to speak of the responsibility of those who have plenty – whether it is Isaiah or Philippians, the Bible has plenty to say on the matter of helping those who need it. What he says is convicting, but neither does he berate the congregation. The church is generous, collectively and individually, but rarely speaks of what it does.

    The poor should not envy the rich, but that does not mean the rich can do as they please with their wealth. They have responsibilities, as they are reminded continually in Scripture. Each person will have to answer to God for how they use what they have been given and they would do well to remember that. “The rich and poor meet together; the Lord is the maker of them both.”

    As for government involvement, I have pointed out before how social assistance and other such programs are not necessarily outside God’s purpose for government. I move, in the city church, in a circle of Christians who hold Biblical convictions regarding issues such as marriage, but do not hold the political and economic ideologies that are strongly associated with the evangelical church in North America. One can be a Bible-believing Christian and still think that social programs are a good thing. The idea that the two things must be exclusive is a cultural one, not a theological one.

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  38. Mumsee, about working one’s way through school – girls in ATI were actively discouraged from taking jobs outside the home. So, during those teen years when PCC seemed the only approved college, I also thought that I could not or rather, should not work. My first job for which I got a paycheque was working in the dining room of a Christian resort centre when the mangers were another family whom we knew from ATI, and I did not start working there until I was almost 20 and my family had left ATI. I did use the money to pay for my education, but I was only taking some night courses – I never earned enough money to cover community college program tuition, never mind the much higher tuition of a private school (and forget the added cost of accounting for the exchange rate). I broke all the rules that had been drilled into me by ATI in taking out a student loan to attend a secular college, yet I paid that money back within four years of graduating, and the only steady employment I had during that time was in West Africa.

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  39. When Ananias and Sapphira died, it was not because they did not give their money but because they lied about it. They did not have to say it was all the money, the church had no interest in that. But once they lied it became an issue.

    It is not my business what my neighbor does with his stuff. It is my business what I do with my stuff. I cannot imagine caring how much money my neighbors have, though I do care if they don’t have enough to eat or stay warm.

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  41. Roscuro, I looked and asked about schools available besides PCC. It was the least expensive I could find. My children found Embry Riddle on their own and it was way beyond what I thought anybody should spend for higher education but they paid for it with their military time. Not something I would have wanted to do. PCC was only five thousand a year when we were looking and that included room and board and the opportunity to work there to pay some of the cost. Of course, getting there was a cost as well and we did not do visits home or to the school. Oldest took the bus from New York. Next flew or drove from Idaho and the next flew from Europe. We did not have much view of working other than it was up to them and there were not a lot of jobs available to daughter around here. Since then, our children have built a good reputation and many jobs are available but not back then. We were the new religious folk. Not even Catholic. BJU and Liberty were way outside our range. We let them know there would be rules and it was up to them whether or not it was too much.

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  42. Mumsee, the fact that God holds people to account does not mean that we should never interfere. I frequently see reminders on Christian websites that it is not loving to fail to warn people of their sin and their need for repentance. Such statements are generally made in the context of certain types of socially acceptable sexual immorality. But the deliberate accumulation of material wealth for one’s personal consumption is not entirely a benign act. Sexual immorality is on the list of unrepentant sins for which a professing Christian should be excommunicated, but so is covetousness (I Corinthians 5:11). The Apostles John and James went so far as to call into question the eternal status of those who refused to use their material good to help others (John 3:17, James 5:3-4). If accumulation of wealth is one’s aim in life, then it is as spiritually deadly as committing adultery; and surely, if we should warn the immoral, then we should also warn the covetous.

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  43. Roscuro, there are actually two schools called Pensacola, and one is rabidly King James Only (Pensecola Bible Institute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Ruckman )–really it is a cult. I suspect the more “moderate” one uses only the King James, too, but it is not as fringe. Even my brothers, King James users all, think Ruckman is fringe.

    I was trying to find something on the “other” Pensacola, linked above, and found this assessment of the one we are talking about: http://samanthapfield.com/2015/04/13/5-good-reasons-not-to-attend-pensacola-christian-college/ It looks like they are pretty staunchly KJV-only, too . . .

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  44. I don’t know what my neighbor’s purpose in accumulating money is. I don’t know if they give ninety percent or more to charities. It is none of my business.

    But it is my business to live my life for God and to take advantage of opportunity to direct others to Him. It is my business, if I see a brother struggling in sin, to speak up and offer Truth. So, if for some bizarre reason, I know that a Christian brother or sister is accumulating great wealth and not only enjoying it but keeping it to themselves, it would be my place to speak up and mention the importance of sharing. But not to a non believer. I am not to be judging a nonbeliever. There is nothing sinful in wealth. The sin is in making it a god and not helping our neighbor when it is within our means to do so.

    I do not expect my multimillionaire neighbor farmers to supplement my below the poverty line existence. We are fine. But I have seen some of my multimillionaire neighbor farmers go bankrupt because they were not financially responsible. That is something they will have to deal with with God. If I can help them, I will. But my help is generally along the lines of offering a place to stay and food to eat. I think that is what God expects. But it does not generally appear to be what the people want. We have offered to house ex prisoners but that would be with stipulations that they are not willing to abide by. I don’t think we then need to offer them money so they can go back to the ways they went to prison for.

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  45. Yes, PCC is KJ only. Obviously, with their homeschool curriculum, people are encouraged to use the KJV and they do put out the message in their video courses. Again, filters.

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  46. I really don’t think it hurts people to use the KJV, though I don’t and never have. If I did, I probably would not wear a head covering as the KJV says it differently.

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  47. Um, Cheryl, I don’t usually take my religious instruction from a bisexual woman/abuse survivor who is exploring intersectional feminism and liberation theology. Partly because I don’t know what most of those terms mean but not all.

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  48. Roscuro – I do believe in the government having a safety net. But I know others who believe all those types of programs should be the purview of the church. But I have to say, I don’t see many churches that could afford to meet all those needs. (And by “churches”, I mean the people in them pooling their resources.)

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  49. Nor do I believe they offer a subpar education. They provide an alternative education that gets people good jobs. It is an indoctrination site and they do frown on rebellion. Eldest son is no longer allowed on their alumni list for his words on a rather unpleasant website of complainers.

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  53. Mumsee – Some people look at those who are rich, and then at those who are suffering in their poverty, and think that the rich should not be allowed to be so rich, that it isn’t fair they have so much and others have so little. One example I have seen used more than once is that the Walton family is super-rich, but many of those who work for Walmart need to be on some government assistance to make ends meet. Or that there are people who are living in luxury, and others who cannot afford their insulin, or other life-saving medication.

    And then they assume that the government should step in and tax the rich more. I’ve even seen that they should be taxed at 70%.

    They take a good motivation – concern for the poor – and turn it into a bad thing – hating the rich and wanting to relieve them of their riches.

    Ha! That kind of reminds me of how judgmental some people get when they are accusing someone else of being judgmental.

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  54. Mumsee, I didn’t see her bio, I just happened to see that link while trying to find the other school, and I read it and thought she had been a student and had a description of a school that doesn’t allow a lot of actual wrestling with the issues, therefore probably worth posting for anyone interested. My niece who graduated from there 15 years or so ago was an art major and she has made a very good living in her field, so from a “career” standpoint she seems well prepared. Personally I think college (and a Bible college) should be more than just career prep, and so I wouldn’t recommend a college that geared to indoctrinating precision of belief. I wouldn’t want one that is just open to any and all positions, but that much precision stifles academics.

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  55. Tee hee, I did not think you did.

    I believe academics are pretty well stifled in most colleges. Again, you get out of it what you put in. All colleges I have ever heard of have a religious viewpoint they are selling.

    Kizzie, I have not made myself clear, and I understand all that about people wanting other people to pay for things. And people not thinking things are fair. Believe me, I have heard “That’s not fair” a time or two. What I am trying to figure out is who thinks that way. What kind of person sticks their nose into another person’s bank account? Why? How could it possibly be any of my business how much another person makes. That is between them and their employer.

    Your example of Walmart. I believe those are supposed to be entry level jobs and then people move on. People get those jobs when they are single and just starting out and then work up through the system. Becoming managers and so on or jumping into another business. It does not seem to work that way as people seem to like it enough to stay and then complain about how much they make. I don’t get it but then I don’t work so probably don’t know the challenges.

    But I have watched my children and most of them seem to understand the concept of moving up and moving on.

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  56. I just tried the wealth redistribution concept, it did not go over well. My hands were cold as I just came in from outside where I was getting bread from the freezer. Daughter looked warm so I stuck my hands down the back of her neck. She squealed and told me her body heat was for her and I should get in my chair and put my blanket over me if I was cold. That’s not fair, she has plenty and I want some!

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  58. So, Christians may reprove unbelieving secular government leaders for unjust practices, but not unbelieving CEOs of corporations?
    Interesting that the owners of Walmart are used as an example in this discussion. The Bible has blistering words, in both Old and New Testament, for those who become rich through predatory practices. Walmart has a spotty history when it comes to ethics. There is an implication in James’ harsh words that the rich men were rich because they held back wages from their employees. The words in Psalms and Proverbs about the wicked who fatten themselves on the weak are not merely directed to believers.

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  59. Cheryl, it was definitely PCC, not Ruckman’s organization, from which the film diatribe came.

    It is not the use of the KJV which is a problem – I use the KJV frequently – it is the idolatry of a Bible translation. Idolatry of a copy of the Bible is still having other gods before the God, and the fruit of such idolatry is invariably corrupt.

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  60. Interesting conversations here today. I also love Cheryl’s photos.

    I am so very tired today. I will take at least part of tomorrow off to carry Karen to her doctor appointment. I need a bit of a break.

    Some days in the tax office it can be challenging to see people’s income level along with charitable contributions and not be judgemental one way or another. A lot of times I do not pay attention, but I am interested especially to see if the wealthy contribute a good portion. Some do and some do not. I don’t remember what I have seen.

    Our son attended three summer art camps at BJU. They were wonderful. I did homeschool required testing through the BJU IOWA test materials. We had dealings with the school like that, but I did not realize all the legalism mentioned here.

    Covenant College is an excellent Christian school for those who can get some scholarships. They are not so legalistic. Also I think they are required to attend chapel three times a week. Our son had some scholarship money and he had work study programs to help pay for his tuition and books

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  61. Roscuro, I used to use the KJV (until I was 18) and then I used the NKJV for about the same number of years (until I started attending a church that used the ESV, which was then a rather new version and it looked like a good one). If I were choosing today, I’d probably choose the NASB. Honestly one reason I wouldn’t be inclined to use the KJV is indeed the “idolatry” around it. I have talked to people who believe it is newly inspired, that every word in it is perfect and thus every difference in another version is a “change” and a “corruption” from the KJV. I know people who believe that a team translating another Bible version should use the KJV to do it.

    I don’t know how fiercely the KJV is defended at PCC and BJU. One of my brothers got a masters at some fundamental Bible college I had not heard of before or since, and I looked at the college’s website one day and was shocked to see it say that the KJV was the only English Bible “allowed on campus.” So yes, there are places in America where the Bible is forbidden, at least most copies of it. I would not attend a college that had such a rule; it prioritizes the wrong things, and it shows itself to be unscholarly. I would attend one that used the KJV in its classrooms (though with hesitation), as long as its professors were allowed to say “the NASB actually translates this word better” and students were left to their own discretion as to what version to use. (Now, if they want to ban the Message and other paraphrases from classroom use or from any use in fulfilling an assignment, I can definitely see that!)

    I don’t mind at all a Bible college having a viewpoint. My own did–although some professors had differing views in some areas, and the college didn’t get super-precise as to what was required belief. If they aren’t willing to say that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, without error in the originals, that Genesis is actual history (Adam an actual person specially created by God, not evolved), that Jesus is God and that He died for our sins and was actually resurrected and not just symbolically . . . then they aren’t worth a Christian’s time and money and commitment. And if they want to be a bit more precise, we’re Baptists or we’re Calvinists or we’re Church of Christ, go for it. But by the time they are saying students have to use this version of the Bible, they have to have this precise understanding of the end times, and so forth, that isn’t really “college” any more.

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  62. When we did the correspondence course and had to send in lots of the work, I realized it made sense to have the children memorizing in the KJV as that way, the checkers would not have to find whatever translation was being used. They do lots of Bible memory work and it shows up on lots of tests. If fifty different Bibles are being used, that would be challenging so I concede that.

    I have heard the Bible teachers comment on how another version gives a different slant and even that the slant made sense. They do have the teaching that the KJV uses the oldest manuscripts and therefore is correct. Don’t know that is still accurate. They do not teach that it is the original and without error but a translation and pretty good.

    They taught different end times views and countered them. But mostly they taught Jesus Christ and Him crucified and being the only Way to salvation. They made it very clear that the rules were there to support the Christian not to make the Christian.

    A lot of people don’t like PCC. I think it unfortunate because they have a lot to offer. Again, if you don’t want to follow the rules there, don’t go.

    All colleges have a veiwpoint, a religion they teach, not just Christian colleges. And many of them are quite adamant that you must believe a certain way or forget about getting a good grade. We have all heard stories of crazy profs or teacher aides or whatever. But, if they teach what you need for the job you are reaching for, that should not be the end. Filters. We are supposed to be teaching our children to think from a very young age. By the time they are old enough to head off to college, they better already know how.

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  63. Mumsee, most KJV people don’t teach that the KJV mss are the oldest (they aren’t . . . which is why scholars tend to say they aren’t the best mss) but that there are the most of them. (That doesn’t really matter if they were all the same “text tradition.” That is, if one monastery got a manuscript with errors in it, and they made 5,000 copies of that manuscript, the fact that they all match each other doesn’t prove they are all correct.) Textual criticism looks at things like the oldest reading, the most likely reading (e.g., the way we figure out what someone meant when they use a typo), and more.

    Yes, kids should already have some ability to “think” when they go to college. But professors and textbooks, and peers, most definitely shape thinking. Kids at 16 or 18 or 19, or even 22 or 25, are soaking up a great deal. I was 22 when I went to college, had already lived on my own as an adult, but I look on those four years as absolutely life-changing. I don’t think everyone needs to go to college, and not every college is right for every person. But where a person goes to college can be hugely important. You might or might not make lifelong friends (I did), you might or might not get a job in your field (I did), you might or might not meet your mate (I did not), but most likely you will have your mind and life habits shaped by those years (I did).

    I wouldn’t send someone to Pensacola or any such school who would be likely to be so disgusted by the rules that they would throw out the good with the bad, nor would I send anyone who is likely to say, “Hey, these rules are such a wonderful idea that I think I will adopt them for the rest of my life!” The whole focus on rules seems misguided to me (not that they have rules, but that they have the level of rules that parents have for their five-year-olds, not the level of rules one usually uses with adults). I don’t think it builds maturity. But for some people, it’s probably the right college, and I know it’s reasonably priced and does a good job of job preparation. I just wanted/needed more than that in a college.

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  64. I am glad I did not stay long when I went to college. Really, I don’t think I saw any shift in the thought processes of my children who stayed there. The oldest became rather liberal when he was working with a lot of Europeans but that was post college. Daughter is still the solid person who went in, able to do what is before her with the strength needed.

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  65. Roscuro, we the people are the government so we could say we are calling ourselves on the government things but private businesses are private. Isn’t there a parable about paying the wages one has agreed to and it is not okay for the wage earners to pout and say it is unfair to pay others the same for working less? Seems to me, if somebody agrees to work for a certain amount and there are other jobs one could go for, it is not the responsibility of the employer to then pay more. They are not slaves, they can go to work at Home Depot or wherever, or start their own business. If enough of them quit, nobody would need to worry about it as either the wages would increase (along with the prices) or the company would fold.

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  66. Cheryl, since I did not pay much attention to the part about why KJV was so important, I probably missed their reasoning. It does not matter to me.

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  67. The KJV doesn’t use the oldest manuscripts, as the oldest manuscripts were not available to the humanist scholar Desiderius Erasmus when he compiled the Textus Receptus, from which the KJV was translated.

    A very good reason for not attending a private institution is lack of accreditation. In my field, if the school program is not approved by the regulating professional body, one cannot become a registered professional. If one is not a registered professional, by laws created to protect the public, one cannot practice the profession.

    Janice, BJU was investigated a few years ago for mishandling sexual abuse case: https://world.wng.org/2014/02/bob_jones_university_and_grace_to_meet
    I am very familiar with BJU textbooks, since I read them to try to supplement the absolutely terrible ‘Wisdom Booklets’ of ATI; by comparison to ATI’s academic instruction, the BJU textbooks were high quality.

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  68. We actually wanted a non accredited school. And it worked for us. Daughter has had no problems with it in her nursing career. Son has had no problems in his computer field either.

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  69. Mumsee, there wasn’t a democracy when John the Baptist told Herod he shouldn’t have taken his brother’s wife. I find the modern American argument that the people are the government distinctly odd – that is not at all what the Social Contract theory of government, upon which the U.S. Constitution is based, says about government. In the Social Contract theory, the public agrees, for the sake of stability, to give power to an agreed upon government; the public is not the government. Moreover, if the public were the government, every citizen would hold equal power and authority, and even I know that the government of the U.S. is composed of executive, legislative, and judicial branches, in which individuals hold positions of power and authority that the average citizen does not.

    The parable of the labourers of the vineyard is a parable to illustrate an aspect of the kingdom of God, it is not an economic principle and is not meant to be used as an economic principle.
    As for the idea that people can simply find a job elsewhere, there are many reasons why that may not be the case. The assumption is to often made that everyone automatically has an equal chance at succeeding and anything that goes wrong must be because they have done something wrong. That is not what Scripture says. The Bible talks again and again about the injustice in this sinful world and about the vulnerability of the weak and helpless and their need for protection. “Plead the cause of the poor and needy.” (Proverbs 31:9) “Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.” (Isaiah 1:17). Job was a righteous man, and that was evidenced by what he did:

    When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:
    Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.
    The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.
    I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
    I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.
    I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.
    And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

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  71. I checked in to say hello to Jo. I was just thinking about you in that far away land and howamazing it is that we can connect here. I hope I never lose my sense of wonder and appreciation. of such things. Art and I pass by the Atlanta airport on our evening trip home, and we are often in awe to see all the jets up in the sky in their landing patterns awaiting their time of arrival. This evening at dusk a plane was flying very low over the expressway as it came in for a landing. I thought for a second that it could just drop on top of me. But that happens over and over daily without that happening. Praise God for all the things He keeps in motion at every moment that we just take for granted.

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  73. I am still trying to understand the link provided by Roscuro about BJU in regards to my comment about our son doing summer camp there. Was their mishandling of sexual abuse reporting related to the summer camps? I never heard about that. I assumed it was something like what happened at Baylor that involved the college age students on campus. The link was not helpful with any details.

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  77. From Soliant’s top ten nursing schools in the country. I have no idea who or what Soliant is. I suspect they are accredited now with the nurse’s federation or whatever it is, because they are really good at what they do.

    7. Pensacola Christian College (Pensacola, FL)

    Possibly our most controversial choice, the home of the mighty Eagles makes it on to our list of lists because of the simple fact that – after top choice University of Pennsylvania – Pensacola’s nursing school is the most-liked nursing program in America, according to student surveys such as StudentsReview.com It’s also the only other nursing school besides Penn to get an A-rating on said site.

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